Talk of Pacific Blue cadetship

[DashQ]

Fifth paragraph from the bottom

Reaching for the skies - industries - business | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3977382/Reaching-for-the-skies)

[DeltaT]

The chairman of New Zealand Aviation Industry's flight training division, Kevin England, says the time is right for budding pilots to earn their wings.

yet the article goes on to say...

Air New Zealand says it will not need a significant number of new jet pilots until 2016

errr, the flow of pilots to the top is stopped so why would a kiwi pilot bother to train?


For Jetstar, the cadetship provides a reliable stream of pilots trained specifically for its requirements as the airline pursues an aggressive growth strategy.


Bull S***, its all about the extra $$ they can make off training those pilots, and that is all!


Air New Zealand and Pacific Blue are also moving to cadetship schemes after traditionally relying on recruiting pilots from the general aviation sector.

hmmm, didn't I just read that Air NZ needs no more jet pilots until 2016?
No more jet pilots, no flow on up from the turboprops, so why a cadet scheme for Air NZ? weird, I wonder why? anyone like to say it?
And because of the lack of demand from Air NZ combined with some of the pilots that do continue to train anyway then not having that employer to go to, why would Pacific Blue then need a cadet scheme with surplus pilots around? ($$$$$$$$)

Mr England says: "For that to happen, there has got to be some kind of standardisation and consistency on how we deliver a programme".

At long last, the powers that be in NZ Aviation someone has finally admitted it that NZ training standards are s***

[Gligg]

Last time I checked, NZ was putting out 4-5 times the number of CPL's per capita compared to Australia. There must be some smooth talking salesmen over there!

[biggles7374]

That is because full government funding is available in New Zealand to cover the cost of flight training for NZ Citizens!!

[Gas Bags]

I am not a pilot but I would like to ask a question regarding the many threads about cadet pilot schemes.

As a youngster looking at becoming an airline pilot, what is so bad about the cadet schemes? Now leave out the emotion, the industrial agendas, and the politics and look at it from purely a potential young cadet perspective.

GB

[neville_nobody]

Until you become a captain being a cadet is effectively useless. If your airline goes broke you will not be able to go anywhere. If you take a more traditional route then if the airline goes bust then you at least have other options.
You are also locking yourself into one airline/one type which is also a risk. The employers like it as they now have a captive workforce. With non cadets you could lose all your pilots if a another operator came in and started offering higher wages.
You have a very narrow experience base
You will be paying over par for flying training
You are paying at least 100k if not more for what appears to be a $50k job at Jetstar!!

You could go to uni do a degree and be so far in front both financially and from a employment perspective it is utterly ridiculous.

Anyone from Australia or NZ who takes these types of deals, must know that in Asia, the airlines PAY FOR THE ENTIRE COST of training. Meanwhile in Australia people are going to pay for the entire cost of training then take a lower salary.

[breakfastburrito]

I will flip your question up the other way. Why do the operators want cadetships given the overwhelming preponderance of evidence that there is no shortage of qualified & capable pilots in AU & NZ?
The truth of the matter is there is an industrial agenda - by the operators.

There is nothing wrong with the concept of a cadetship, when there is a genuine shortage of capable skills. This is the way Asia & Europe operate, with limited or no GA industry.

The problem with some of the touted AU/NZ cadet schemes is:
(a) Off-the-shelf self training available right now at your local flying school.
(b) Potential pilots that cannot afford (a) are force to purchase the expensive (roughly double) airline training system package as a cadet.
(c) The operator conveniently extends a credit system to support (b).
(d) Because of (c), the operator can pay well below industry T&C's.
(e) Because of (d), the cadet cannot save enough to "buy out" his debt to the operator.
(f) Because of (e) there is ZERO industrial leverage, or the ability to move operators, ie indentured slave.
(g) When the debt is finally repaid to the operator, and (f) is no longer valid, their contract is not renewed , a new recruit at stage (b) is introduced to perpetuate the system (happening right now in Europe).
(h) Because of (g) there is mass of experienced FO's all looking for an operator to give them a command with downward pressure on T&C's.

The operator laughs all the way to the bank as they get a revenue stream from the overpriced training & flood the pilot market with low experience pilots to place pressure on T&C's.
The incentives to over-train pilot numbers is enormous, the only limit being the number of victims applying to join the "system".

I hope that clears it up for you Gas Bags.

[Gas Bags]

BB,

That is a concise answer that gives a pretty clear view of the situation from an existing pilots perspective.

I only asked as there seems to be an awful lot of emotion in most of the threads concerning cadet schemes. I guess that is fair enough when you look at it in the perspective of your answer.

Thanks, GB

[Nuthinondaclock]

GB,

Have you had a look at this site? The Truth About the Profession - Home (http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/)

All based on the US experience but it seems we're charging down the same path.

[BurntheBlue]

so why a cadet scheme for Air NZ? weird, I wonder why? anyone like to say it?

I wont, because i'm pretty confident AirNZ wont do it, this article is classic pro-cadetship propaganda if you ask me. Lies.

At long last, the powers that be in NZ Aviation someone has finally admitted it that NZ training standards are s***
Perhaps the standard of instructor could improve, but in comparing internationally, the NZ CPL is highly sought after, why? Because it's harder to get, the standard required to pass is higher.

hey wingunder.... YES they do, kindof, but the interest free student loan is near enough isn't it? it does cover all costs and is available to aussies, NOT just NZ citizens, provided they have resided in NZ for two years... *prepares for sudden influx* :ok:

[DeltaT]

I wont, because i'm pretty confident AirNZ wont do it, this article is classic pro-cadetship propaganda if you ask me. Lies.

A recent thread points out that Air NZ has just put out training tenders on a cadet scheme

Perhaps the standard of instructor could improve, but in comparing internationally, the NZ CPL is highly sought after, why? Because it's harder to get, the standard required to pass is higher.

hahaha the NZ CPL highly sought after internationally? You must be joking, leave the country and find out the truth, or were you just talking about Fiji?:E
As for Instructor standards, when you fly only a few hours a week its hard to upskill, more like the standard of the courses should improve and the ArSL examiners need some new blood.

[Mr. Hat]

A distinction needs to be made.

Two types of cadetships:

1. Qantas and Air New Zealand

2. Rex, Jetstar and Pacific Blue etc.


Group one is a cadetship based on extracting high achievers from the general population and seeing them as a 40 year investment.

Group two is a means to an end. Get a bum on a seat. These types of companies have trouble attracting the cream due to their woeful and pitiful conditions. These schemes are purely based on lowering conditions and extracting money from hopefuls.

Please don't confuse the two. QF have been doing the cadet thing effectively for years. You could possibly compare the first group to the armed services.

Apples and Oranges.

[BurntheBlue]

hahaha the NZ CPL highly sought after internationally? You must be joking, leave the country and find out the truth, or were you just talking about Fiji?

dont have to travel, internationals come here to train, i've instructed plenty and they all say the same. Certainly the NZCPL and Instructor ratings are harder to obtain in NZ than Aus. Ask anyone that's done them, or better yet, try the Flight Test Standards Guide for each country. But what would I know right?

And as for the cadetship, I guess time will tell whether this gains traction. If there truly is going to be a Pilot shortage of the order that requires ANZ to look into a cadet scheme then i'm not at all worried for job prospects in the future. :ok:

[Artificial Horizon]

Having completed an Instrument Rating in New Zealand, Australia and the UK and having done the CPL flight test in both New Zealand and the UK I can tell you the myth that the NZ CPL/IR is somehow harder to obtain is bollocks. It certainly is different in areas and has some elements that are harder just as overseas licences have some elements that are harder. What I found when I went overseas was that the NZ CPL was not valued any higher than any other licence. International students come here because we are CHEAP, not because of the higher standards :ugh: .

Cadetships will gain traction here for the very same reasons as they do in the United Kingdom. It allows the airlines to have a ready pool of 'talent' that has already passed the selection and recruitment requirements for the airline. The airlines are not doing it because there is a shortage of pilots, they are doing it because it gives them a gauranteed source of pilots that they have had training input into since day one. Air NZ and Qantas are no different to the other airlines, they will see some financial benefit to having cadets, you can rest assured Air NZ cadets will be bonded and will be paid a lower rate than a direct entry pilot. Air New Zealand can afford to have shorter bonding periods and better conditions because their cadets won't leave!!! You could bond them for 3 months and they would stay. Jetstar and Pac Blue don't have this luxury as if they only bonded for 3 months the cadets would all be out of there ASAP onto other airlines because these places aren't 'career' airlines. The only way they can be sure of getting their pound of flesh is to keep the cadets bonded for a longer period of time whereas Air NZ can be confident their cadets will spend their 40 year career at Air NZ.

[A37575]

But what would I know right?


Please tell us. We are all ears...

[Sqwark2000]

Didn't know they ever had one or is it something they are planning to do ?

I thought they didn't plan on doing any recruiting for a few years ?

Knew they were talking about an ANZ "academy" back in May 2008 - did it actually go anywhere ?

Request for tenders issued approx. 6 weeks ago. Successful training partners to be announced Feb 11.

Rumours of new hires, albeit approx 4, before Xmas.... A couple of jobs advertised internally for "non-down training" positions recently, i.e. not B744 S/O's being moved to B777 fleet etc.

Rumours/mutterings of Uncle Koru briefing the Links to be prepared to ramp up recuiting/training in 2011...

S2K

[DeltaT]

dont have to travel, internationals come here to train, i've instructed plenty and they all say the same. Certainly the NZCPL and Instructor ratings are harder to obtain in NZ than Aus. Ask anyone that's done them, or better yet, try the Flight Test Standards Guide for each country.

Indian students are pretty much doing the NZ and Auz licences because its much quicker than doing the Indian one. They also have less immigration hassles than other countries. (Good 'ol NZ)
CTC are in NZ because its cheaper to train the UK Airlines cadets here.
Leave the country to the real world, nothing to do with the NZ licence standard and to think so is very nieve. There is nothing 'harder' about the NZ licence except for the pompus attitude of ArSL and CAA.
The NZ FTSG is just that, a Guide. Even the ArSL examiners don't think much of it, they have their own in house way they think things should be done. Though they do like to refer to it as gossipal at times to get them out of a sticky situation due to lack of any other standard reference material in NZ.

I see that an increase in CAA fees is currently in the review process and accepting submissions, perhaps that will reduce numbers and send some elsewhere...

Without referring to the cadet scheme howcome the Big Koru is hiring next year? they published earlier on this year in fact, that there was no need until 2016. They have pilots on leave in other airlines etc, 3 just went to Tiger less than 6 months ago, don't they want to come back now?! lol Surely some realisation of retirements etc doesn't just slap them in the face all of a sudden.

[Virgin Musthave]

Wonderful. 20 year old brown nosers on 30k per year flying shiny toys for a living !
What a joke. As if this mob were not stupid ? Seems like the brains behind this scheme is some acne faced analyst who served his time between Boston Consulting and polishing the shoes of Virgn Group management.