Fed up with this career

[cabinready]

Im totally fed up with this as a career. Ive got over 3500tt and am currently flying a small- medium sized biz jet and getting paid peanuts despite having some command time. I ve tried to apply to airlines before with no success. All they seem to be bothered about is recruiting a 20 year old cadet with 200 hours to sit in the RHS on a 6 month contract and for a large sum of money from daddy's wallet. :ugh: I cant apply for captain positions as I dont have any experience flying for an airline or JAR25 aeroplanes. Despite being only 34 with jet experience/ glass cockit time/ highly capable of making cups of coffee that I feel im already on the scrap heap and my present job (that doesnt even pay my morgage) is about to go tits up. Why when we've put all this into a career there is so much lacking?

[MagicTiger]

I am fed up hearing about people like you complaining. If you and other pilots, who got all for "free", had been better to look after your T & C's, then there would not have been this situation.

What a boring topic, somebody stop the troll! :ugh:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well if it makes you feel any better ... I'm totally fed up with this career as well, and I've got 7000TT and half of that on long haul heavy jets ... had my little 2 year old boy crying down the skype at me again this morning because he wants daddy to give him a cuddle and can't understand why I'm away, and only talking to him through the computer screen AGAIN for the rest of the week.

Honestly guys aviation is trashed from one end of this world to the other. The glory days of the big European flag carriers are over, nobody flies with them short haul any more thanks to Ryan and Easy, and they're getting their asses kicked by the arab airlines on most of their long haul routes. I thought about going back to my old job (Easyjet) but they're only taking P2F guys and contract pilots on pathetic T&C's, and the latest is they're giving "seasonal commands" to their senior FO's so they can turf out all the contractors in the winter :mad:

Out here in the sandpit you can still make money but by god you work hard for it, the rostering is so horrific and it's such a hell of a lifestyle especially for your family that very few people (except those from third world countries) are prepared to stay here and tough it out long enough to call it a "career" any more.

Asia is probably the best bet now, but just about all the growth there will also come in the low cost and contract-pilot markets, the historically great expat airlines like Cathay and Singapore are a shadow of their former selves when it comes to careers for non-nationals.

I'm leaving the sandpit in the next few weeks for a contract agency job in the far east and unless something miraculous happens in terms of half decent airline jobs in my home country (down under) I plan to be out of this rotten profession altogether before my kids start school, I'll seriously re train and go work in IT, or any kind of job that lets me leave my desk at 5 pm and go home (considering that half this forum is IT people who want to be airline pilots, that should bring a smirk to a few faces).

[Luke SkyToddler]

And what makes you think he or me or anyone else got anything for free magictiger ... if theres one thing I've learned from 18 years in this industry it's that trying to stop the hordes of wannabes these days who want to prostitute themselves to get on jets, is like the story of the little dutch boy trying to stop the leaks in the dike with his fingers, every time you try to close one hole another one just opens up, for muppets like you to keep on flowing through :mad:

If you don't want to hear experienced pilots telling it like it is then feel free to go elsewhere, but I think in any case that you, not him, is the troll

[ToneTheWone]

Magictiger - That's a bit harsh. At no point reading cabinready's post did I get the impression that he got anything for free. He may well have paid for every rating himself, with money he earned from hard graft. And flying biz-jets as an FO, he may well never have been in a strong enough position to put his foot down and fight for better terms and conditions.

Maybe there should be two PPRUNEs, one for people with rose tinted glasses who live in a world where the sun always shines and there are jobs for all. The other should be for the doom and gloom merchants.

Then if you don't wish to read negative posts from people with experience then you won't have to:=

(written before but posted after the previous post. True evidence that great minds think alike!!)

[cabinready]

Im sorry but im not a troll. I just feel frustrated with the career that ive chosen and have always wanted to do. I feel quite helpless at times because I feel trapped. Ive paid huge sums of money to do this career and trained hard; ending up flying a modern biz jet. However, the TCs dont reflect this and the fact that my roster is non existant, Im practically on call 24-7 really rubs the issue in, the wife expects that she and the family comes first (rightly so) although very difficult at times. An office admin guy earns more than I do and hes only working 9 to 5 monday to friday; I on the other hand regularly work 16 hour days but only fly for a couple of those hours. I would like to work for an airline however I seem to be trapped between the 2 systems, im not a 20 year old cadet with only 200hours nor am I a seasoned airline pilot flying JAR25 aeroplanes. Any suggestions folks? Or should I just jack the whole thing in and work for a company that produces office stationary or toilet paper and enjoy my "structured" time off with the family?

Its just so difficult to walk away from a career that youve put everything into not just the financial aspects. I dont want to be trapped like this when im 50.:sad:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Chin up cabinready, you're in a lot better position than a lot of your compatriots - 3500 TT with some glass jet and 34 years old is not actually a bad place to be ... twasn't that long ago that netjets europe was hoovering up guys in exactly your position, and that is a GREAT job - and my mates in that company tell me that they're working hard again all of a sudden, all those Russians have gotten over the financial crisis and they're splashing it around on fractional citations just like the good old days :)

The bizjet world feels the highs and lows of the global economy a lot more than we airline plebs, but good times will surely roll round again for you guys soon. You're lucky in that most millionaires don't actually want to get involved in the business of selling P2F and charging £35 grand for a £10 grand rating and generally screwing the 200-hour superstars, they actually value and reward good people with brains and experience sitting in their driver's seats and you clearly have some of both. Stick it out and stay current and keep networking, when you least expect it you'll suddenly win the job lottery :ok:

[cabinready]

Thanks Luke for your words. :)

[MagicTiger]

Was not trying to be harsh! cabinready with first post, and bemoaning the P2F pilots, or the pilots who have to pay for their TR to get a job, quite a few of them on these forums.

The established generation did get their TR's and fairly good T & C's when they joined the airlines, or got their break into the industry.

However the situation today has become desperate for wannabes, who also invest thousands in CPL/ME/IR/MCC + + hours!

You had pilots example in SAS, who refused to retire when they reached they planned retirement age, meaning younger pilots lost their jobs in the company. They had top salaries and even greater pensions, nothing compared to what anyone today will be able to get.

Then you have the pilot's who allowed the P2F to happen, it was ok for the ones in their safe jobs already, because it did not concern them, or did it? Maybe their safe job, no longer so safe because of the recession and hard times, suddenly pilots with plenty of TT, and even time on type, but can't get a job as FO anymore, because the airlines now rather want a wannabe, low hours, low experience and willing to pay them 28.000 Euros for TR, and some even pay for line training.

Now is there any reason that pilots unions could not have said NO, we will not accept this P2F pilots, because this will undermine our career progression, and possible future employment chances!

I would today consider a pilot lucky if he only gets bonded for training and TR, so yes the established generation did get something for free, that todays wannabes probably never will get.

Todays situation is, overpay for your TR, get peanuts paid, and maybe unemployed next month!
Some of us might NEVER get a job, even after investing thousands, thats the chance we take.

But I guess the pilots unions did not care to much about protection the future pilots T & C's. I still feel that somehow the P2F could have been limited.

My reaction for the troll, is that there are so many of these threads, complaining about P2F, but fact is nobody ever did anything about it when they could have, now it is to late, unless it proves to be a security/safety risk!

[Mister Geezer]

cabinready

As someone who has recently moved from airline to corporate, I can assure you that you are sitting on the better side of the fence. If I were you then I would try and get into a better corporate job than what you are in at the moment rather than make the move to the airline world.

My roster is perhaps less predictable than it would be in an airline with a fixed roster pattern, yet I get far more time at home than any airline could ever offer and the big trump card for me is that I am never fatigued whilst at home which I really value a lot.

Multi sector days and 800-900 hours a year has never been so unappealing! ;)

[cabinready]

Thanks MG. If I fly an airliner I can then decide which I prefer in terms of lifestyle. I think this actual job I have is particularly bad for lifestyle and its likely to go bottoms up in the next year so Im trying to escape. I also wondered that by getting time on JAR25 aeroplanes I could switch easily from airline back to corporate or vice versa in the event of another recession in 10 years time; that is if im still a pilot. I would therefore have experienced most sides of this industry. Granted I probably agree with you that this type of flying is better but that is providing you are earning more than a basic office worker and know roughly your movements for the next week ahead.

[ei-flyer]

MagicTiger, may I ask what your level of experience is please?

[MagicTiger]

ei-flyer -
I am not moaning over the situation. I am not happy with the way things are, so no need for personal attack with regards to my experience level. (however not a problem, low houred CPL)

Cabinready - is clearly frustrated with his choice of career, however he does still have a career in aviation. I can not know the reasons why he has not been offered other employment with his experience, maybe he has been unlucky with his choices.
I have a friend of mine FAA licensed, also with more than 3500 hours TT, and also not made it into any of the airlines.
I have another friend who had nearly 4000 hours, majority on SEP, and few hundred on MEP, he was 43 and paid for his own TR, and got himself a job in the desert flying a 737. (Dubai/Afghanistan)
He told me if they gave him a FO with 200 hours he would refuse to fly. Now I know it is not always that simple, we all have bills to pay.

Cabinready - was angry at the "rich kids", and I agree this can be frustrating times. He also said he could hardly make things go around, does he believe some of the Airlines are better when he starts there?

All we can do is do our best, I have been lucky as I have had several other careers, and I have career I can fall back on if things goes from bad to worse!

I have to admit I have been on the management side rather then the employment side, and I am not sure how I will react if I get treated like dirt as an employer, as I have been self-employed and ran several different business since I was 19.

It does seems if pilots had been stronger with their management, these negative changes could have been limited. However if the management comes and tells their pilots, either accept P2F schemes at our airline, or our airline will not be able to exist or you will need to take a large pay cut, of course we would all comply with management, end of the day, they are the ones paying our salaries/contracts.

I think the root of the problem is a combination of several factors, slow recruitment at the moment, people have invested thousand of pounds, and there are no jobs out there. Pilots are sitting tight in their seats, afraid that the recession might hit they airline, scare politics by management, we have to save in every corner - and pilots have to accept any condition directed by management, because they fear what would happen if management might be right.

Lufthansa pilots did take a stand, why does nobody else care enough?

[ei-flyer]

MagicTiger,

No such personal attack intended, it was just a question. :)

Thank you for the answer - knowing one's experience allows people to conclude for themselves the validity of one's opinions.

[Uncle Wiggily]

cabinready:

I totally understand your frustration! I have been in the same boat. 4000TT, 2900 Jet, Typed in B744 and a 3 other biz jets. I don't have 300 hours in the B744, so that excludes many of the jobs on Parc, Rishworth etc. I have not found a job since late Spring of 2008. I also have FAA and JAA and right to work in the EU and USA. Doesn't matter.

Airlines today look at experience as a negative...i.e. you are not a money making device for their operation. A new cadet does provide income for the airline. The only other option is Direct entry Captain. But, you require time in the exact type of aircraft that the airline is operating. So 20,000 hours in A320 does very little if you are after the 737NG job.

I recently cashed in my chips and got out of the industry. Moved into another industry (this was not easy...got lucky in that the guy interviewing me was another former Captain who got fed up w/ the flying "career" as well, i.e. he knew where I was coming from.)

After deregulation in the US, this profession slowly went to the dogs. After the creation of RYR and EZ's "become a really cool pilot" schemes...the industry went to the dogs in Europe.

Yes, this job is cyclical and better days will be here again, but bad days will follow the good days again. What do you do if you are in your 50s and made redundant? What if your particular time in a particular jet is not in the jet the hiring company operates? You have built up your CV...for what? In every other industry, a built-up CV is a positive and you can use that experience to negotiate terms and conditions in your favour. Not in aviation. You will have to start at the bottom with a seniority number at a salary that won't pay your bills.

If you can find that pilot dream job, then more power to ya. I would be jealous..seriously. For me, enough was enough and I made the move. I now have a steady salary and learning skills that can be easily transferable to future jobs that are more abundant than pilot jobs.

You need to do an honest evaluation of your position w/ friends and family. You must steer your own ship.

Good luck!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Magictiger - I understand your frustration but I think you over estimate the power of the established pilots to do anything about it. The whole buy-a-type-rating thing which led on to P2F first reared its ugly head in Ryanair and a whole bunch of smaller low-cost airlines around Europe, some of which are no longer with us like Sky Europe.

Now I'm sure you're aware of the union situation at Ryanair, the captains there have enough of a fight on their hands to stop O'leary cutting their own salaries in half year after year after year, without getting mixed up in cadet politics. And if you are an out-of-work captain who's just been offered a job with a dodgy start up lo-cost airline, will you refuse it because you don't like the contract that's on offer to the new FO's?

At the end of the day it's about SUPPLY and DEMAND and the ability of the management to sell an outrageously bad deal to a bunch of young people who are, at the end of the day, 99% of them are chasing their dream they've had since they were kids - and want that dream so badly they will do just about anything to get it. If they want it badly enough ... and the management want to give it them, it's very hard for the established pilots to stop the two getting together :ugh:

[portsharbourflyer]

I will say one thing, I was laid off from my turbo prop job back in 2008, no I didn't enjoy it that much, lot of time down route, low basic salary, a roster that changed every five minutes. However having been stuck in a design office since leaving flying I can now say I actually miss flying for a living and if you ask me where I want to spend the next 30 years, well down route in a hotel is prefereable to 9-5 in the Office.

You all seem to think that there are some miracle jobs out there that are better; very few jobs are enjoyable, but I assure you no matter how bad you thing your flying job is, it beats been stuck in an Office.

I do currently earn now more than double what I use to as an tp first officer, however if you ask me if am happy then the answer is no; after two years away from flying, then I am considering every option to get back into it.

[silvercare]

You could go in a third world country and talk to children used to make manual works about your problems. I would pay to watch you while you explain you are paid peanuts to fly a jet. I think they would not sleep during the night. I am sure they will be really simpatethic about your poor life and they will give their 4 $ months salary to cheer you up.

I do currently earn now more than double what I use to as an tp first officer, however if you ask me if am happy then the answer is no, after two years away from flying I am considering every option to get back into it.

Old boring staff. Whatever I do makes me dream about flying... There is not such a thing like a cockpit sight... bla,bla,bla.

Sometime I think O'Leary is right. Sometime I believe he won. We are really a group of sadic, mindless and obsessed people. A kind of Tiger Woods but instead of sex, we are obsessed about flying. Get a life people, flying is nice but just inside a certain limits otherwise if you think so who could blame those 200 hrs prostitutes ? They are doing whatever to fly, as well as you. Both of you are the end on the same obsessive page. :{

[cabinready]

At least I know Im not on my own with all this. Sadly the low cost carriers have ruined the job market. Unless you are a 20 year old with daddys money; willing to work for nothing on a 6 month seasonal contract it appears to me that it is very difficult to get any kind of job in the RHS of an airliner. Ironically the application forms preach on about professionalism, dedication etc etc, very emotive words although their practices are anything but.

The time of one serving his time as a flying instructor, piston twin air taxi pilot, turbo prop FO and then jet Sky God have gone it would appear. Instead the airlines would rather employ a 200 hour wonder, practically making your modern airliner a single pilot operation. I can only welcome whats happening in the US with regards to flight time although their system has always been superior.


Sometimes I wish I could cash my chips in too, although I do occasionally feel lucky to witness a sunrise at FL390 or to see the whole of London lit up below. However lifes practicalities often cause me to see sense- how am I going to pay the morgage, why have the school drop outs driving a better car, live in a bigger house and have a far more rounded structured life with hardly no effort on their part etc.

[niksmathew24]

No offence silvercare..

Old boring staff. Whatever I do makes me dream about flying... There is not such a thing like a cockpit sight... bla,bla,bla.

But for that comment...get a life..!!:ugh::ugh:

[shaun ryder]

Sorry but I have to say the same as the above. Sort your head out and stop crying about flying for a career, your choice, live with it or get out. Half these lot on here would sell their grandmothers for a flying job like you have.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Half these lot on here would sell their grandmothers for a flying job like you have.

... which is exactly the reason WHY this profession is so :mad:ed up.

Can't have it both ways Shaunryder ...

Either YOU guys stand up for what you believe, and refuse to "sell your grandmother" just to get into the driver's seat ...

... or else, bend over and take it, in which case you should probably STFU when people in our position complain about how screwed up the industry has become.

Your choice.

[silvercare]

But for that comment...get a life..!!:ugh:

No offence but why ? If you didn't notice I got one and it is beatiful. I don't need to cheat to myself making others belive I am super hero, super man like many others do while they are people incapable to enjoy their luck or believing they should get something more just because they are better than who knows what...

Enjoy what you have and stop crying. During free time try to fight to improve this world and fight for justice. Two third of the World are starving and should I get a life ? Please, grow-up children. :mad:

[initial vector]

Guys, it seems the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence... Believe me, Business / Executive / Corporate aviation is by far (!!) the best way to go!

I had a job on a business jet, best time of my life!

OK, granted, I was lucky as many trips would go something like this:
(hope this will make all "doomers" re-think giving up on aviation all together)
- wake up
- drive to your local coffee shop (wait for it to open)
- have a freshly baked croissant and a steamy cup of coffee
- drive to the airport, park the car
- stroll to the private jet, open the door to let it air
- check the flight information (min fuel required, etc)
- order fuel if required
- make some more coffee
- watch the sunrise
- print latest wx, notams, etc
- do the preflight check
- check flight plan is in the system
- accept delivery of the VIP catering
- try the catering (very important!) this is about when the captain magically appears!
- load the remaining catering, newspapers, magazines and gifts
- start APU and condition the cabin
- greet the passenger(s)
- taxi out and FLY!!!
- talk about your weekend with your cockpit buddy
- land the plane at the luxury destination your passengers had to go to
- kindly thank the passenger for the large euro bills he sticks in your hand
- eat the catering the passengers haven't even touched
- fuel (or don't)
- pay the landing, handling, whatever..
- order the catering for the return flight
- grab the taxi to the hotel at the beach
- check in
- hang out at the pool and spend your per diems on cocktails
- text your friends "how awesome the weather is where your at"
- next day, enjoy breakfast, life in the sun, dinner, the works
(spend some of your "tip" on your wife, kids, etc)
- next day, get ready to fly back home
- check out of the hotel
- taxi back to the airport
- greet the handling agent who will take you to the plane
- open the door to let it air
- recheck the flight information (min fuel required, etc)
- order fuel if required
- have a coffee
- handling agent will provide you with: flight plan, latest wx, notams, etc
- do the preflight check
- accept delivery of the VIP catering
- try the catering - and there is the captain again! It's magic...
- load the remaining catering, newspapers, magazines and gifts
- start APU and condition the cabin
- greet the passenger(s)
- taxi out and FLY!!!
- talk about your trip with your cockpit buddy
- land the plane
- taxi to the private terminal
- accept another generous donation
- pay the bills
- secure the aircraft + restock the champagne (yes it's all gone, again)
- drive home
- distribute the presents
enjoy the rest of the day, it's only 14:00

Sure, I didn't make as much as my Easy Jet, Netjet, whatever jet friends, but I guarantee you I had a lot more fun!

Ofcourse, I also had problems:
- small company, so you have no union: you could have long days (18 hours duty) with a less than minimum rest period, followed by another 18 hours duty (for example) -> you don't like it? Well, you can leave if you want to...
- finally get home after 5 days of heavy duty (multi sectors - business people) busting all sorts of regulations, but now you have 3 days off scheduled! Or not, you walk in the door and are called, sms-ed, emailed, etc to come back to the plane asap for another duty period!
If you prefer to go on that short trip you had planned with your family, well you can leave if you want to....

Anyway you get the point...

So, I finally got fed up with the situation and decided to give it all up for a chance to fly bigger jets... but as I mentioned, the grass always LOOKS greaner... Different company, different rules, schedules, still busting minimum rest, no consecutive off days, no tips, no nice hotels, no, no, no ....

The PERFECT job DOESN'T EXIST!!! If you get a job where more than 75% of the days you are enjoying yourself A LOT, then stick with it!!

The grass is always greener, so forget about that IT job! (unless you have to)

Hope you all feel better? :confused:

[Artie Fufkin]

I can now say I actually miss flying for a living and if you ask me where I want to spend the next 30 years, well down route in a hotel is prefereable to 9-5 in the Office.

A very good point.

I have personally noted that most of the berators of this profession usually have no experience of the horrors of what working life is like for most people. I used to work in an office and hated it. I've been flying professionally for nearly 5 years and haven't had a single day where I haven't thought "I'm the luckiest guy alive". There are huge T&C issues at work, but I know the grass is greener at only a very select few employers, and even then, probably not for very much longer.

The dream of living in your home town, with your employer of choice, on your fleet of choice, earning a fantastic salary with perks, all training paid for you by your employer, getting home in time to tuck the kids in every night and early prospects of command will happen for no one.

[stefair]

I fully understand jobs like that are pretty rare but they do exist and there will always be companies offering above average packages. Admittedly, not everyone is going to make it into outfits like that:

Guy I recently talked to, 737 skipper working in central Europe, part time, six months of work last year and I bet he still got five grand a months after taxes.

Another guy I went to uni with now flying for a European flag carrier, in his mid-twenties, building his first house with pool and other gadgets. According to him he's making so much dough that he's finding it hard to spend all.

Like with every other profession: There are bad jobs. There are good jobs. And there are great jobs.

As one guy said earlier, be grateful you get to live and fly for a living in western Europe, a place in peace and, after all, let's face it, prosperity. 95 percent of the world population do not have that...

[niksmathew24]

Silvercare

Enjoy what you have and stop crying.
During free time try to fight to improve this world and fight for justice.


There are many who does that happily.:)

[Squeezebox55]

Aviation has not been kind to me and to be honest I would walk in an instant if only I had another career marked out as plan B.
Where does it go wrong? Well simple really: The A380 is not the biggest thing in the air these days; the unbelievable size of the egos of so many is!
There are no supermen, no modern day heros. It is a job. It is how we earn our living. Loose the ego and it could be the best job in the world?
In my career I have met some very nice people. I have also met an awful lot of the nastiest you could ever hope not to meet. Unfortunately the latter heavily outweigh the former.
And BTW why why why in these threads is our job ALWAYS compared to a 9-5 office job? Don't you see that there is a mirriad of other things to do in life that are interesting, rewarding, challenging and fulfilling that will provide security, progressment and a nice pension at the end that don't entail sitting in an office for 40 hours a week?
I only wish I had seen that 30 years ago! :{

[silvercare]

There are many who does that happily.

in that case my thumb up gentleman :ok:

try the catering (very important!)

Like in the middle age ! Taste the king's meal before he starts to eat :}

[embryonic]

Squeeze box is dead right, if pilots just dropped the whole image thing, stopped being arse holes and stopped conforming to what they think are the normal sadistic, narcisistic standards in the industry, it would make for a much better working envirnoment. Dont get me wrong, I have equally met some great people who have been very helpful and would not have succeeded without their help. The others Im afraid are sad narcissists whos mothers never picked them up when they cried as children, and their nappies were never changed ! :D

[flash8]

After eight years in the industry I decided to get out. And let me tell you never a better decision have I ever made.

Although not that young any more, and with no particular skills outside of flying I look forward to what the future holds and have already started making plans based on a consistent long-term outlook.

I agree with many posters. Unless you are experienced enough for a DEC or are a 200hr wunderkid with 20K+ you are scr*wed. I have mates out of work with 3K hours on the 737 - one has just signed on (again!). And a DEC? They will scr*w on the T&Cs royally... anywhere... the whole industry is going to the dogs.

I recently read that Eaglejet are now offering P2F LHS 744. That really does say it all. How long before it is commonplace that any Tom, Dick or Harriet can show a cheque in exchange for a command?

I would ingrain that into your minds very deeply. Because that thin edge of a wedge has suddenly become a lot thicker....

Bring back and make mandatory the 700 hour route for everyone.. thats my solution.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Initail vector's "weekend in the life of" sounds :mad: great until you realise that - watch the sunrise is number 9 on his list of events after "wake up".

What's more kids, if you end up at sleazyjet or the likes, watching the sunrise will feature at around about daily event number 14 for five days on the trot! Ray Bans at the ready, it's RNFR, as Slash would say :bored:

[gtseraf]

interesting to see that Captains are not being paid extra to hold the hands of the low time P2F drivers. So, all ranks are being screwed.

[Northern Highflyer]

I don’t see anyone crying about his lot, just merely expressing frustration at the lack of a structured career path. It does seem more and more that cash rules over experience.

Cabinready, your frustrations are the same as those of many a low houred pilot, and not all low houred guys are 20 years old, or even 30. I started in 2001 at the wrong side of 25, completing it in 2005. During that time the P4TR, P2F beast seemed to get a strong foothold in the industry. The old route of working your way through the system was the big draw for me and I was happy to serve my time at the bottom and to experience some challenging and fun flying. That particular rug was well and truly pulled from under my feet as the P4TR, P2F craze took hold.

Guys I know who had gone the instructor route soon realised that the £6000 outlay and many hours circuit bashing for poor wages wasn’t getting them onto the next rung of the ladder. Even turboprop outfits were starting to ask for cash up front for the type rating, in return for a meagre salary. This was bad enough in itself, but the progression from TP to jet involved coughing up yet again for another type rating as the experience gained again seemed to count for nothing. In the end. everyone I know (except one) who did the FI route had to eventually pay for a type rating in order to move on.

So the structured career path of the traditional hour building route has been replaced by, pay to be an FI, then pay for a turbopropTR, then pay again for a jet TR. No wonder people are short circuiting straight onto jets, in the long run it saves cash. As for me, this whole pay to work thing is out of my league, so I am back in my old job, still thinking of what might have been, but at least I can afford to live. Who knows, the industry may all change and I might get a second chance, but I won’t be holding my breath.

[initial vector]

Sorry "Time Traveller", you are right -> I was attempting to boost the forum's morale...

Indeed "BitMoreRightRudder" has a point, number 9 is "watch the sunrise" and he is right that Easy's pilots are already on their second leg of the day by the time they get to enjoy the sunrise. However, as you read my point 2, the lady at the bakery had started work before I even got up...
How about doctors? You think these guys start their careers driving to work in a Ferrari? They work 72 hour shifts with little to no sleep - and they studied for 6 years and spent 100K up to 250K for their educations...

There are many examples out there of worse T&C's where people don't even like the work their are doing! Sure we get paid crap and work till we drop, but at least we like what we're doing! If not, DON'T DO IT! There are many jobs out there if you prefer to earn more...
If you want to be a pilot AND have good T&C's, then start your own airline! Just let me know where to send my application...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

If you want to be a pilot AND have good T&C's, then start your own airline!

Sure we get paid crap and work till we drop, but at least we like what we're doing! If not, DON'T DO IT!

Are you being serious? This is the sort of sentiment that the beancounters and airline managers the world over are longing to hear. I can appreciate you enjoy the job you are in at the moment and that certain elements make it worthwhile in your eyes. On some points I agree with you.

Commercial flying is a professional position of responsibility that requires a huge financial and personal commitment to enter into, and one that SHOULD offer a combination of a sustainable lifestyle and a pay package that acknowledges the skill, expertise and responsibilty required of all of us. Many people seem to enter this job thinking that a love of "flying" will get them through a 35/40 year career and that they are entering an exclusive "club", that professional flying is some sort of dream lifestyle. It's just a job. No more no less. Time off work and pay in your pocket quickly overtakes admiration of the sunrise on your list of priorities.

You are saying that it is impossible to achieve this as a pilot, that as a group we are not worth it, and as long as those newcomers joining our ranks think as you do and continue to accept ever decreasing entry level T&Cs then there is only one way for our profession to go.

[cavortingcheetah]

'Commercial flying is a professional position of responsibility that requires a huge financial and personal commitment to enter into,'

As a question without an argument attached to it, why should a newly qualified pilot have any greater expectation in life than the poor soul who has worked his way through university and then comes out with a BA after four years and a few tens of thousands of dollars down the drain?
I sometimes think that the greatest legacy the older pilots living today could leave for the generations of starry eyed boy wonders to come is to trash aviation to such a destructive extent that in twenty years time there will be no pilots coming through training. That at least might ensure that some grand child of a pilot living today would have a better chance of finding a job controlling the computer of whatever passes for an aircraft in those days in the future.

[Mikehotel152]

I sympathise with anybody who finds their job unpleasant or feels trapped due to their personal circumstances. Whether you're flying for a living or working as an estate agent, if you don't get up in the morning with any enthusiasm for your job you have got to reevaluate your life. You only live once.

I was incredibly lucky to be able to make a career change, ironically, into aviation from what others would perceive as a safe and well paid career. I could only make that leap because of a very supportive wife and the financial security that comes from that earlier career. It wasn't Daddy's money that paid for me to get the RHS of a jet. It was my money. And I'm not 20, I'm in my thirties!

That said, I do think the locos have played a huge part in ruining terms and conditions for the industry. In some cases, it's about time that Airlines are forced to live in the real world and cease paying extraordinary wages for part time work. Sadly, the bean-counters don't know where to stop, have no morals, and we'll all end up suffering.

I do take exception to some of the comments about inexperienced FOs flying for the locos. Believe it or not, an eager, fully qualified and well trained low hour FO is capable of flying a modern jet aircraft in a professional and safe manner without burdening the Captain.

[Wingtip66]

Well, guys that is nice to here all the bla bla bla about flying...but what has happend the last past 10 years all the low costs airlines have really made a pilot life worser then it was before and our reputation went down...who does not see this is either blind or on cloud No.7 with pink sunglases.
Flying this or that airplane does not matter it is yourself that matters and you are the one who makes decısıons for your lıfe inclouding to I wanna fly Jar 25 Jets or say on smaller ones....Guys I can tell you I have also seen bad and very bad days and even days were I said that all this is not worth...but after a short period I came over it and could motivate myself to make even a bigger step forward.
That is what counts gentlemen and that is what big airlines want to see in a character of yours.
I am also close to tears when I talk to my small son on Skype, because Daddy ıs workıng far away from home, but who else brıngs ın a shıtload of money to support them at home.....well there are good thıngs and bad thıngs...but you fınd them in every other job as well and still do we have a great job.....be crıtıcal to your job and have a lıfe....flying is not everythıng !

Happy Landıngs to all of you!!

Wıngtıp66:ok:

[Mikehotel152]

are we to assume you too are fuelling the P2F frenzy that's resulted in awful Terms and Conditions for the entire industry?

In other words, how http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif is your salary?

No. I have never paid to fly. I did, however, self-fund my type rating because the only job available to me in the already :mad: industry - which I guess must be your fault because I have only just arrived on the scene - was with a company who requires new FOs to pay for their own ratings.

My salary isn't :mad:. I'm earning the same in my first year as a commercial pilot as I was earning as a Solicitor. It's not great but I'm doing what I've always wanted to do, I enjoy my job, and I can now support my family without coming home every night hating my 9-5 job.

P2F and SSTRs are here to stay. You can't blame me or anyone who joins the aviation industry in the future with diminishing terms and conditions. If you were joining the industry now you would be in the same crappy boat.:ugh:

[Mikehotel152]

P2F and SSTR are only here to stay as long as the proper airlines aren't hiring

I hope you're right about that. Sadly, the cynic and pessimist in me thinks that they will blight the landscape for a few years to come. :(

Alas, no one can blame you for what you have already done

Indeed. And I can add that I sought a great deal of advice from people in the industry before I embarked on my career change and during my training with regards job opportunities. I would very happily have flown anything.

I spoke with experienced FIs and with Captains and First Officers from a variety of UK and US airlines, from cargo and charter operations to flag carriers, all of whom reluctantly advised the RYR route as being the only one available at the time.

I took that advice and looking around me I realise it's not a bad place to be.

Yet, it's amazing how many experienced pilots on Pprune criticise new entries to the profession for taking the only available option. Meantime, everybody I have met in the real world has encouraged me down this route and applauded the hard work I've put in to reach this point. :confused:

[Guttn]

I agree that one can`t really blame newcomers to the :mad:industry for having to either do a SSTR or, even worse, a P2F route. They are entering a :mad:industry that has been molded by beancounters, locos, and pilots who have set this all-time low standard for being hired. I`m sure that no-one in their right mind wants to pay for training, or hours, to fly commercially. The downfall after 9/11 played a huge role in this, then came the locos with RYR at the head position offering jobs to 300 hour pilots as long as they paid for everything through them. And when things finally started looking a bit brighter, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, then BOOM!!! we have a full fledged economic crisis on our hands due to loans and debts and such. So you can`t really blame one person, or a seemingly group of people who almost have no other option for a career, especially when they get played against each other from flight schools and TRTOs from the beginning. The industry is :mad: and it`s not getting any better. P2F is becoming the norm. MPL is deemed safe and proper. More liberal FTLs. Less pay. 6 month contracts. :yuk: And, unfortunately, there is absolutely no media-emphasis on this because, hey, pilots live a glamorous life. No? :rolleyes: The way things are now, and have been for awhile, would make you think that nobody with half a brain would even dream about getting into commercial flying! I`m hoping that one day there will be laws agains SSTRs, P2F and banning of MPL licensing. And proper wages, and maybe being able to have a lifestyle somewhere between the 70s and 80s, and where we are today. But I`m afraid it will be at the cost of an accident. :(:=

[Callsign Kilo]

Mikehotel152, I think you have made an honest and factual reflection about the current state of the industry. You mention experienced pilots; people who have been in the industry for many years. Traditionally, in my experience, I find these people coming from three routes - the armed forces, airline sponsorship, or self-improvement. Each one is an extremely enviable background to have, and I reckon 99/100 pilots would agree that these should always have remained the only paths into our industry. Yet presently each path holds very little or no value whatsoever.

Take self improvement for example. In my opinion this route would mould a pilot from basic SEP flying, to instructing, to air taxi/charter, turboprop then jet. If anyone were to ask me I would STILL argue it's case, especially the instructional path as it is an extremely rewarding challenge. In terms of initial outlay, the course was around the 6K mark when I embarked upon it. In terms of financial return; forget it! In terms of experience; unrivalled! In relation to making the next step up; debatable? Guys who I started my commercial training with 4 to 5 years ago are still stuck here. They are extremely disillusioned. More so than anyone here claiming to be fed up with their profession. They can't get charter work (what's left of it) because they don't have the relevant MEP time, they have struggled to make it into the RHS of a turboprop because the jobs simply aren't there and when the do arrive (take FlyBe for example - the biggest TP operator in the UK) the preference is to recruit 150-200 hr wonders from integrated schools. I have one friend who made it into the RHS of a well regarded regional operator from my neck of the woods. He waited years, swam in hold pools, was told one thing then another. He got there in the end (Hey Mike!) along with a few others; thankfully due to the fact of where they were from and the experience that they had (all instructors). However the case that I am able to refer to is now extremely unique. A mixture of good fortune, right place right time, and of course the ability to stay current enough to pass a sim assessment!

When I was going through the FIC, the kind of dross that was out there (when recruitment was considered to be 'buoyant') was a job in a B200 where you were bonded for 20K, with an added 6k recurrency bond for 300hrs a year and a 12hr 'on call' duty period. The salary was sh1te and would have led to my wife and small child claiming poverty. The flying, when it happened, would have been fantastic; but that's it. The experience, in the same way as instructing, would have been overlooked in favour of someone willing to pay for the SSTR. That, as unfortunate as it is, is where we are today. On another thread we have guys in FlyBe who are struggling with conditions on the Dash Q400. They have amassed thousands of hours but can't get out. Jet airlines aren't interested in their valuable experience. Why; because experience is expensive. Kids arriving in FTOs are now being informed of the new route. CPL/IR (soon to be a universal wide MPL) - MCC - Jet. Just hand over the 80-100K. They won't have heard of self improvement. I had a 200hr wonder sitting in the jumpseat the other day actually snigger at the fact that I had embarked on an FIC course and came within a baw hair of a job on a C406 (the operator has since went bust). I was astounded by his disregard - and I haven't even been doing this that long!

And as for the beancounters - they fully tap into this. The only way it will change is when people start leaving. When the experience void is too big to fill, when there isn't enough people to upgrade; when ultimately there isn't enough crew to cover their operation.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well ... the US congress has just legislated a minimum of 1500 hours be required to pilot a part 25 (i.e. airliner) aircraft ... that should pretty much kill the P2F industry over there, albeit it's nowhere nearly as badly entrenched there as it is in Europe.

Sadly it will probably take a fatal accident, as it did in the US, for the European politicians to get off their backsides and legislate something similar (and probably a lot more intense lobbying, because the floggers of the rip off schemes actually represent some serious big business now) but wouldnt that be fantastic if it came to pass. For the travelling public AND for the future T&C's of airline pilots.

It would represent a pretty seismic shift in the aspirations and expectations of the European wannabe fraternity - and no doubt 3/4 of the wannabes would kick and scream and fight against it because lets face it, it's clearly obvious from the continued rise of P2F that most of you don't want to go and fly lighties when you have even the glimmer of a fool's fantasy of a chance of flying a big aircraft, at any price - but just like a big spoonful of cod liver oil it would ultimately be for your own good :hmm:

[Callsign Kilo]

It would represent a pretty seismic shift in the aspirations and expectations of the European wannabe fraternity - and no doubt 3/4 of the wannabes would kick and scream and fight against it because lets face it, it's clearly obvious from the continued rise of P2F that most of you don't want to go and fly lighties when you have even the glimmer of a fool's fantasy of a chance of flying a big aircraft, at any price - but just like a big spoonful of cod liver oil it would ultimately be for your own good

Self Improvement is dead and buried Luke. And until the day we have some sort of experience cap on those transiting to commercial operations, then it will remain so. This is categorically not the way FTOs are teaching any longer. They are telling wannabes that the airlines want MPL type candidates, they are teaching students to pass flight tests, not fly aeroplanes; they are moulding crews who are technically aware yet in terms of procedure and handling are completely challenged to put in kindly. It is very evident in the simulator. It's not that these guys don't want to fly lighties as you put it; they don't believe that they have to. They are all too aware that it gets you nowhere presently. Whose fault is that?

[El Lobo Solo]

Until people stop using phrases like "I love what I do", "I'm the luckiest guy in the world" and the best one "I can't believe i get paid to do this", the career will continue to drop further and further down the ****ter, with or without 200 hour PFTers.

Management knows you all have the "LOVE of FLYING" and wouldn't know what to do if you were pulled screaming from the cockpit and they will exploit it at every opportunity.

Goodbye improved T&Cs...:yuk:

ELS

[Callsign Kilo]

To be honest I don't see management falling for the "I've made considerable financial sacrifices to do a job that I really despise" school of thought!

No one is telling them "I love this more than life itself, thank you, thank you, thank you." They are aware of the money invested in order to do it. This has to be made viable by the pilot. They are also aware that we will turn our backs in a minute when something better comes along. Until then it is their ballgame.

[initial vector]

All markets, including the Pilot market is built on "supply and demand".
Current pilot supply: about 5.000
Demand from airlines: max 200 jobs
So guess what! Airlines are taking advantage of this...

Not a big surprise there, but due to the fact that many pilots (not all pilots, but many) come from a good economic background, many are both willing and able to accept worse T&C's to get into the cockpit...

Once the demand for pilots increases (and a pilot shortage is predicted by 2014!) then the T&C's will automatically get better and better!
Even Ryan Air will need to start offering industry standard (no, not current industry standards, but those as they were in 2007! Or else O'Leary will need to get his own ATP to keep "cattle class" in existence.

Perhaps a Union for unemployed pilots and starting pilots would be a way to battle these conditions! That way we can all say NO! collectively to less-than-minimum wages and horrid T&C's... Just a thought...

[MagicTiger]

cabinready - you are 34 years, have 3500 TT - and you are moaning like a baby! Sorry - but you know there people who would give their arm and their leg to be in your position!
Cabinready, not being offensive - so please don't misunderstand me, but you will be in pole position of many when the good days does come back soon!
Now if you are so unhappy with what you are doing and your prospects there are things you can do.
Talk to your boss.
Quit - there are jobs at Tesco, Mcdonalds and ASDA.
Go back to school and change career.
Apply with other companies, at least with your TT you will be considered by other companies/airlines.

The P2F - is not with the majority of airlines, maybe TR paid by the pilot will become the future with all - still I guess this depends on supply and demand.

Sometimes one does not appreciate what one has until one no longer have it!

I am curious, this "terrible job" you have, how many years have you been doing that job?

Your frustration is less than new CPL's, who can't even get a FI job at the moment, because the market is saturated. I would be happy to swap your log book with mine, even if it meant I now for a while would be unemployed! Who wouldn't?

[cabinready]

MagicTiger its ok no offence taken. The whole thread was started so I could air my frustrations (rightly or wrongly). The whole problem is that the experience I have gained from various flying jobs seems to be almost useless despite it being jet/ glass cockpit. The problem is that for airline jobs they (the HR depts) appear to love the 200 hour wonder kids. As already stated here airline managment love them and they love the prospect of flying a shinny jet instead of starting on the bottom rung of the career ladder. For instance theres already cadet schemes in the pipeline for various airlines although there is a good surplus of already experienced pilots out there.Crazy. Why take someone with less experience when theres already guys out there with thousands of hours?

They have turned the RHS into the most costly seat in the whole aeroplane and these kids dont mind working for nothing on a 6 month contract, after a few hundred hours probably being binned for the next wonderkid with 30K burning a hole in his back pocket. I dont doubt that some of these 200 hour wonderkids can fly with an autopilot although what happens when something goes wrong and theres a screaming x wind on a dark and stormy night into a procedural only field? The whole concept and word "crew" implies that the members work together on the flight deck although how can this be happening in the modern flightdeck; the captain is flying single crew Im affraid; and the first officer has bought his seat like all the other passengers in the aeroplane. The problem is that these characters have never served their time in any other aeroplane or seen the industry from a different angle.

How long will it be for schemes to start for LHS ratings and hours just so you can jump the job market and have command time flying your shinny jet for no pay or conditions.

I do love flying and me ranting about the system will not change a thing, granted. I do have to think whether in the long term I do need to cash my chips in and start a new career. The main worry is that one can gain all this experience earned the hard way but its not really valued and sometimes its seen as a negative.

[flash8]

The olde days of the integrated golden wonders and the 700 hour sluggers (where one knew ones place in the pecking order) did wonders..

Where did it all go wrong?

I think this is a trend in society itself, where people now expect "something for nothing".

When you "expect" RHS Jet after 200TT.. and then cry when it fails to materialize... well that says it all really.

Their was a time that "FI" was a dirty word... but a necessary one. Now though... that word fails even to exist in the newly minted licence holders vocabulary!

It is all about ME ME ME.

[MagicTiger]

I agree flash8

Think it is the fast-food nation, high speed information, we want everything yesterday, no time for tomorrow or today.

I would be happy to instruct until I got 700 - 1000 hours, but today you have pilots with 800 - 1500 hours working as FI's, not getting to the next step.
That's the problem now.

[Northern Highflyer]

I would be happy to instruct until I got 700 - 1000 hours, but today you have pilots with 800 - 1500 hours working as FI's, not getting to the next step.

Likewise with me and exactly the point I was making before. All the instructors I know bar one have still had to go and cough up for a TR to move on, most of them with FR. There is no incentive, and even less opportunity to follow the self improver route any more.

Well ... the US congress has just legislated a minimum of 1500 hours be required to pilot a part 25 (i.e. airliner) aircraft ... that should pretty much kill the P2F industry over there

Imagine that happening in JAR land ? If the traditional route was forced back into existence, how long before someone began charging £20k for an FI course before offering you a 'self employed' contract with an agency where you were earning crap money whilst being forced to pay a percentage to one of an exclusive band of accoutancy firms ?

So far I have refused to join the SSTR merry go round but only this weekend I was asked if I had got a job yet. When I discussed my situation and concerns on the industry, I was told 'well it's what you have to do to get a foot in the door'. This from a 757 captain with many thousands of hours.

[Callsign Kilo]

Your quite correct the self improvement route, as worthy as it was, is finished. I find that very disappointing. There will always be an exception, however as you observe no one is moving anywhere by the "traditional" means. The experience that you gain as an instructor, tug pilot, banner tower or air taxi pilot will personally be worth while in terms of your development and experience, but means nothing to the airlines by and large. They know they can stick a 200hr bod in a TR course successfully. If they can charge for it, even better.

[blackred1443]

It quite sad to think the traditional route is gone for the foresseable future. While i never particularly enjoyed ppl instructing it thought me some very valuable lessons and made me realise how little i actually knew about flying! I then progressed onto a very old jet which had turbo prop performance and once again began to learn how little i knew about flying but learned an enormous amount in an aircraft with very little automation and always stuck in the weather due non rvsm compliant.While i am still relatively new to flying (little more than 5000 hours total) i do wonder will missing out on all this adversely affect the '200hr, i want a airbus/boeing now' brigade. Will they get bored alot sooner with this career, having skipped what alot would argue was the 'apprenticeship'.

I must admit i am also terrified at the propect of moving companies, as one false move and that could be curtains for my career now that experience comes against you when job hunting. It does make me laugh how many people on here with 2 years in their first airline preach as though they are the voice of experience. I feel quite sorry for them just another example of people not understanding their place.

[embryonic]

Guys ,you got to get real here, there are plenty other worthwhile, rewarding careers out there with much better T&C's. We all love to fly and are passionate about all things aviation and all aspire to that great career in the skies, tasting the wine of the gods! but the fact is life is too short to be waiting around for something that may never happen especially when you see whats happening in the industry. After all its only a job that provides an income at the end of the day. I think if you havent got any reward in terms of flight careers and have exhausted every avenue and resource, you seriously got to look at the bigger picture and really consider some other path in life and be true to yourself and your family.
There is always the option to keep flying privately with your local flying club, or getting involved in a group share to keep the passion alive. Its not the end of the world. Dont let it destroy your life.

[Callsign Kilo]

It does make me laugh how many people on here with 2 years in their first airline preach as though they are the voice of experience. I feel quite sorry for them just another example of people not understanding their place.

2 years in any airline might just give you enough experience to form an opinion. Especially if that experience is first hand. 3 years in aviation before joining an airline will hopefully give you an insight to what the airlines want. The fairly common sentiment shared is that it isn't self improvement. Its a great shame. It is a viable route in terms of raw experience, it will earn genuine respect from your colleagues and piers; however its nothing more than additional black ink on a cv to employers. You jump through the same hoops as the 200hr guy or girl fresh out of Oxford who knows nothing other than a straight transition to a jet. Alternatively you can take the moral highground and play your chances with the traditional method. It didn't work for me and it isn't working for a number of my mates.

Out of interest, when someone has a few years of airline experience what is their 'place' exactly?

[KBPsen]

All markets, including the Pilot market is built on "supply and demand".......Once the demand for pilots increases (and a pilot shortage is predicted by 2014!) then the T&C's will automatically get better and better!

The fabled 'pilot shortage' is just that, a fable. There never was one and there never will be. The supply has always been greater than the demand, that has never changed. What has changed is the perceived status of the job. Both among those who offer the job and those who take it.

The last 15 years or so have seen a continuous decline is T&Cs and it is continuing.
The preferred F/O is now one with a freshly printed license as they have been conditioned to and are willing to pay for much of the company's cost of hiring them. They are also cheaper once hired. More importantly experience is no longer seen as adding any value to an F/O.

This trend is now spreading as we see the first P2F schemes for Captains emerge.

The only shortage we'll eventually see is of experience. But even that wont slow down the beancounters.

[flash8]

This trend is now spreading as we see the first P2F schemes for Captains emerge.

Such as the following:

B747-400 CAPTAIN
ICAO ATPL and ICAO B747-400 PIC Type Rating
7000 hours total flight time including 2000 hours captain turbojet flight time
Operator Conversion Course + 500 Hours: $39,900 USD

I would not believe it unless I saw it myself. The end is nigh. What an absolute joke this "profession" is becoming. Sorry, but the truth is harsh.

[initial vector]

Well, I wouldn't mind working for Mcdonalds!
coffeelovesmilk.com | pilot jobs worldwide (http://coffeelovesmilk.com/pilotjobdetails.php?n_pj_id=290)

All kidding aside though, KBPsen makes a valid point. Not many have been in the position to ever come across a pilots' shortage... However there have been several. Last one was in 2007!
Several airlines were hiring, Netjets nearly doubled their pilot numbers. Contract- and freelance pilots were raising their prices and airlines couldn't find enough captains to fill their empty seats. Granted, the mayority of these empty seats were to be filled with captains, but that would open the market for F/O's as well.
I write "would open" as, unfortunately, due to the fact that the crisis hit hard and fast(er than expected) in 2008 the F/O's never got to profit from that vacuum.

In fact, I think it is obvious F/O's got screwed the hardest... The supposed vacuum created by migrating captains and upgraded F/O's was hacked-to-pieces by cutbacks instead. The once-so-desired captains were made redundant to cut costs and the P2F schemes were introduced for the fresh cadets.
Brilliantly done by the airline managers! You would almost think it was planned that way....... :rolleyes: :hmm: No, let's not start another conspiracy theory...

I hope BA is right about the upcoming pilot shortage of 2014, but as KBPsen so eloquently put it: it is a fabled one... :(