A question fron an SLF to CC

[lucavigg]

Okay, it's total honesty time.

I appreciate the hard work of CC these days, especially now that airlines are feeling the pinch and trying to cut costs etc. I certainly couldn't do the work that these people do and I'm happy to travel in the knowledge that they are there.

I was recently on a long haul flight and the crew were having to deal with more than the usual amount of special requests, asking for additional drinks, pillows, blankets etc etc etc. It seemed that halfway through the flight, the crew looked totally shattered and they seemed to have spent a long time on their feet and a long time dealing with some obnoxious passengers.

We didn't hit any turbulence, but the Fasten Seat Belts signs went on and the chief came on the PA asking passengers to return to their seats as we may be hitting turbulence.

We were like this for about 45 minutes, the flight had not hit any turbulence and some passengers started complaining that the crew had done it just to get a break.

I didn't really mind why the signs went on and didn't feel put out or angry by it. I appreciate the fact that sometimes you just have to stop and get your breath back. However, it made me curious.

My question is this. And all I ask is total honesty.

Have you ever crewed a flight were a decision was made to put on the seatbelt signs in order to give the crew a well deserved break?

Thanks

Luca

[Capetonian]

An interesting and well reasoned request. I'll be interested to see the responses from CC.

[TopBunk]

Well from the perspective of an (ex) longhaul Captain, then yes it does happen.

Not very frequently, maybe 2% of lomghaul flights. Sometimes the galley areas get too cluttered with passengers after the meal service, and it is difficult for the cabin crew to get space to eat their own meal and they may ask for the seatbelts to be switched on to facilitate that. I don't consider it unreasonable for a short period of time, but wouldn't condone it for periods greater than 30 minutes or so.

Hope that helps....

[jetset lady]

Hi Lucavigg. Fair question and I'll try to answer it as honestly as I can!

First, the break aspect. Every UK airline has to provide time for their crew to have a break on long haul flights and, if I remember correctly, it should be away from their work stations so technically, the crew should not have to request the seat belt signs to be put on just to give them a breather. However, as is usual in life, some airlines do that better than others. The one I currently work for does provide both places for us to rest and system of how breaks should be taken. Unfortunately, my previous airline did neither and when I raised this issue, the reply was that we could go into the flight deck and have our breaks there! I'm guessing they've never tried to squeeze 7 in the front of a 767. I'm also guessing they've never operated on a crammed full charter Cancun either! (Good old CHIRP! What a total waste of time!:rolleyes:)

In your case, I can't really say whether the crew asked for the seat belt signs to be switched on or not. In some ways, doing so would increase the work load as everyone then has to rely on the call bell, including those that have strolled up to the galley to get a drink. Plus, of course, the aircraft has to be secured for turbulence by the crew. On the other hand, I have been in the situation that Top Bunk mentioned, trying to grab a quick meal in between passengers coming into the galley for drinks. I do remember one particularly busy flight when we had finally sat down with our dinners about 5 hrs into the flight. Our bums had barely hit the atlas boxes before one lady poked her head through the curtain and commented on the fact that she was glad we were finally getting a break to sit down and have something to eat. She then asked for another lager! She didn't seem to see the irony in her request.

I personally have never asked for the seat belt signs to be put on for the crew to have a break but I will hold my hand up and say that on very rare occasions, I have requested them to be put on if the situation with people standing in the aisles and by the doors is getting out of hand. I will try to get them seated through more normal means first but if they don't comply, then from my perspective it becomes a safety issue.

Firstly, it means we can't get through quickly in the event of an emergency, be it fire, medical or security. Then there's clear air turbulence, a nasty and highly unpredictable phenomenon that can hit when you least expect it. Have a look at the threads over the years, the latest being the AA incident approx 2 weeks ago. And finally, it can be annoying for those seated near the doors/toilets etc. Bear in mind that everything seems to be magnified inflight and that includes tempers. Trouble can flare very quickly and that's something you really don't want to have to deal with in the close confines of an aircraft, mid Atlantic.

Finally, one last point. Occasionally, again just as in life, whats promised never materialises. So the pilots can be warned of turbulence in the area, warn us and put the seat belt signs on. We then run about securing the cabin and dependant on the advised severity, getting ourselves strapped in only for nothing whatsoever to happen! I say that but usually nothing will happen until they switch the signs off again at which point all hell will break loose! Think it's something to do with some bloke called Sod and his law.

I'm sorry that I can't give you any definite answers but hope that may explain some of the issues.

Jsl

P.S. Did I pass, Capetonian? Huh? Did I? ;)

[lucavigg]

Interesting post JSL.

CAT scares the hell out of me. I prefer a regular judder rather than nothing followed by a huge drop.

We were flying into San Francisco once, quite low for CAT I must admit, and the plane suddenly dropped about 50 ft. One of the CC was standing next to me and she instinctively looked out of the windows. I later thought that we might have dropped to avoid another aircraft close by.

Even longer ago, I was on a Pan Am 747 flying to LA. This was in the days when the Captain would come out and say hello to the passengers (sometimes all the passengers!). While he was doing his walk around, we hit turbulence. Everybody nearby looked at him for some clues as to how serious it was and he carried on saying "I'm sure they'll be able to manage". I assume that in those days there was still an engineer up front.

Luca

[MIDLGW]

I've only asked for the seatbelt signs to be put on once, and that was to try to break up a potential fight. We were successful, and it gave the people involved a bit of cooling off time.

Very much agree with JSL's post.

[Bealzebub]

Although the question is to cabin crew, the seat belt sign is actioned by the Captain or First Officer under the command of the former.

It sometimes happens that a request is made to action the routine use of the sign slightly earlier than usual during a descent, in order to provide the necessary time to secure the cabin, which might be anticipated to be extended for one reason or another. Likewise in the cruise there may be extenuating circumstances that give rise to a request from the cabin crew to ensure passengers return to their seats and such a request would be considered as the occaission arose.

However the idea that it gives the crew "a rest" isn't true. When the sign goes on, there are interruptions in the cabin service and a requirement that the whole cabin is checked for compliance. The cabin then needs to be monitored for the duration of the required period. It is likely to be self defeating if the signs are continually used for no obvious reason, which is why there should normally be a brief explanation from the flight deck or the cabin crew if this occurs.

Although it is normal for the seat belt sign to be switched on when turbulence is encountered, it is also worth remembering that the flightdeck crew are constantly receiving reports from ATC and other aircraft concerning encountered conditions ahead. As well as this, they have preflight briefing material showing forecast areas of turbulence as well as (in many cases) the experience of perhaps covering the same reciprocal routing earlier that same day. Pre-emptive action is therefore common and desirable. Sometimes it turns out that the expected turbulence doesn't materialize in severity or indeed at all, however that is simply a bonus, and not a cause for not acting in an otherwise timely manner.

It also often happens that reported or likely episodes are deemed sufficient for ensuring the passengers are secure, but deemed sufficiently low risk to allow for continued cabin service. This is nearly always a judgement call, but it is made in the knowledge that with an otherwise secured passenger cabin, the active crew can complete the full security requirements in a much shorter time than would otherwise be the case if passengers were not already seated with their seatbelts fastened and checked.

In point of fact, the crew are busy doing their services and look forward to completing them, rather than having them interrupted. Certainly it can sometimes be frustrating when congregations of people impede a service, but experienced crew are normally good at sorting out those things. The seat belt sign is a safety device, and shouldn't in the ordinary course of events be used as a tool for anything else.

[Capetonian]

Thanks jetset lady. You said exactly what I would have said if I'd had your knowledge, or to put it another way, what I imagine I would have said if I were CC. In fact I did, many years ago, when I worked for a UK charter carrier, work as supernumerary (I almost couldn't even spell that) CC on charters to East Africa.

I think my main point would have been your first one, and even now I get very irritated when the CC or flight deck request that passenger keep their seat belts fasten in case of turbulence, and half the pax are all gung-ho and don't bother.

[L'aviateur]

Was on a 9 hr flight last week (MNL-AUH), and the seatbelt sign was on for the whole flight, with only the slightest hint of turbulence for about 5 minutes mid flight. After an hour or so, it was pretty much ignored by those needing the toilet. On the other hand, outbound a few days earlier (AMS-MNL) with a different airline, and with a fairly constant judder of light turbulence throughout the flight, never saw the seatbelt sign once.
Wondered in the first situation whether it's just a precaution and sort of a legal 'cover my back' seatbelt sign. Either way I don't care as I just sleep and press the call bell for water if i desire any rather then getting up on the assumption that if its an inappropriate time, I'll be told no. It isn't my responsibility as a passenger to worry about the crews rotation and rest during the flight, I have every confidence they are professional enough to deal with that themselves.

[onetrack]

I seem to recall that airlines recommend you keep your seatbelt fastened as much as possible, regardless? - in case of CAT - which often strikes without any warning?
There have been many instances of passengers wearing seatbelts, who were uninjured after a severe CAT event was encountered - whilst the injured ones were the ones roaming around, or who had their belts unfastened.
As for passengers intruding into the galley, I would regard that as being just plain "pushy". I would never dream of doing that as a passenger. It's the equivalent of walking into a restaurant kitchen and demanding items.

[Runaround Valve]

Slightly off topic, but was told this by a mate who went Flight Engineering.
He was on a 707, full economy migrant charter, the Technical Crew could not get to the toilets for a break, so they put on the seat belts sign for a while and managed to get their break.
If I remember correctly on the DC-8, the Flight Engineer would open the flight station door and when someone exited a forward toilet he would press a button that locked the toilet door. The Tech Crew could then get to the toilet and unlock the door to get their break.

[etrang]

As for passengers intruding into the galley, I would regard that as being just plain "pushy".

Actually I see it as being more accommodating than pressing the CC bell. If you need, say, a glass of water, pressing the bell means the CC has to make four journeys; galley to pax seat, back to galley, back to pax, back to galley. Whereas if the pax goes to the galley, the crew just has to pour the water.

Of course just waiting until CC come round would be the easiest on the CC but on some flights that could be several hours.

[marlowe]

on shorthaul i have asked the captain to leave the seatbelt sign on for a little longer than normal after take off, to allow the crew to get a good start on the meal service before the pax all want to head for the toilets!!!!! Especially on single aisle aircraft.

[lexxity]

We flew MAN/EWR a couple of weeks back and the seatbelt sign was on the whole flight. In the end I grabbed a passing crew member to ask could I please get up and use the loo. He said sure, just be careful. There were 2 little wobbles the whole flight. I got up again later to see about getting a cup of water and they had trays of them laid out in the galley, so obviously CO expect the pax to get up and help themselves, but leave the seatbelt sign on. Curious.

This was a single aisle aircraft too. So wondered if that may have played some part in leaving the sign on. It also carried only 4 crew, so guessing easier for them to deal with strapped in pax in the unlikely event, etc. The chap serving our area was really, really nice and kept checking we were ok. :ok::ok:

We always strap our seatbelts regardless, we once saw the effects of CAT over california and it wasn't nice.

[Aus380]

It still amazes me that pax don’t keep their seatbelts fastened while they are seated. Our safety demo/announcement states it as a requirement, however there is no clear policy to “enforce” this other than when the seatbelt sign is on. If it was an absolute requirement on every flight on every airline, there would be virtually no injuries from a CAT event other than to pax who are out of their seats, and of course the Cabin Crew on duty. Amazing how airlines compensate those who have chosen to ignore the safety briefings at the beginning of the flight. Snap frozen food for thought!!!

[PAXboy]

My only concern is when I see a person sitting next to me - that I do not know - unclip their belt when the light is on. They will often deliberately hide the fact with a laptop or magazine.

So it appears that they are doing so to please their ego at not doing what they are told. Unfortunately, they might hit me on their way down from the ceiling. Sometimes you can tell the person but sometimes, you cannot and I then carry a risk as well. Oh, yes, I can use the call bell but how much better is that going to be for the air rage.

Yet, they continue to unbuckle ...

[bizdev]

Some Long Haul airlines (BA Qantas?) actively invite pax to help themselves at the galleys where there are drinks and nibbles/chocolate/ice cream. I think this is brill as it means you dont have to bother anyone and it gives you a bit of exercise - but this would not be welcome for those airlines that do not offer this kind of self service.

[Lotpax]

Oh, yes, I can use the call bell but how much better is that going to be for the air rage.

I did this once and asked to be re-seated, due to behaviour of passenger.

Crew member was unresponsive, so I asked for service supervisor, who re-seated me as she understood that the airline should take the responsibility for their passenger who broke the rules.

[radeng]

It seems as if BA aircraft have a light in the cockpit that comes on as soon as coffee is being served. This leads to the flight crew switching on the seatbelt sign!

You would think that there's been enough CAT happenings publicised in the media that people would not release the seat belt until they had to get up for some reason.

[davidjpowell]

Last long haul I flew on did a PA after a few hours saying they were having a break and if pax needed anything to pop up to the galleys. Seemed fair enough to me.