Australian Defence Force Aircraft Technician / LAME / AME Questions

[TUF250]

Hi All,

I am a flying instructor in Australia and am thinking about a career change due to my keen mechanical interest. I have a few questions which I cannot find answers too after nights of searchin on the internet.

I am very interested in becoming an Aircraft technician with the australian air force.

What I would like to know is, is the ADF aircraft technician the same as a civilian AME or LAME? Do the qualifications satisfy eachother? I know you get a certificate in aeroskills with the ADF which I believe is the same required for the civilian position.

If I were to leave the ADF oneday (not planning to as it seems a great career) would my military qualification meet the requirements of an AME / LAME? or would I have to do an apprenticship?

I know to get your LAME licence you have to fill out an 'experience' logbook and sit exams, can these be done thorugh the ADF or are they all different again?

Any information would be great. Just want to be able to keep my options open.

Next question is, what is the future of the aircraft maintenance engineer? Will there be a shortage in jobs in the future? what is the long term pay like? Can I switch from airline maintenance to general aviation (light aircraft) or vice versa without much hassel?

Im sure I will think of more questions.

best regards.

[AvionicsGuy]

You need to sit CTC exams when you leave the RAAF, and i assume show a record of experience, how long or how much is needed i do not know.

Have a look on the casa website under maintenance and personal, it should give you some information.

As for instant AME recognition i dont know if you would get that, but i would assume so.

This all could change however when they convert to the EASA maintenance system....

[piggybank]

TUF250, no the ADF aircraft technician is not the same as a LAME. The level of responsibility will be less but on the good side the forces will give you a progressive advance in your career.

Right now CASA accept ADF experience but as AvionicsGuy says it may go through a change when CASA go to the EASA system. Maybe someone in the UK can add to this point.

Worksheets. Definitely start them early on in your career. CASA love them. See the CASA site for downloadable forms covering the whole range of worksheets. In my opinion the electronics side of aviation has the most future potential for keeping in a job and better pay.

[Rigga]

If CASA goes to the full EASA route then military maintenance experience will count towards the modules/exams. But the exams will still need to be sat and passed.
There may also be a requirement for at least one year of civil registered aircraft experience before the Licence can be awarded.

...See the other recent thread for the location of the CAAs ELGD (Eng Licence Guidance Document)

[TUF250]

good information thanks all.

Ok so the basic jist here is that regardless of how long I am with the ADF I will still be an AME equivilent in the civilian sector?

Regardless I would have to sit all the CASA exams to get my Licence?

Do these exams vary depending on weather I wanted to become a general aviation LAME or an Airline Lame?

Can you go from one to the other?

Also Do all these rules apply for the avionics side as well? I am definately more passionate about the mechanical side but Im sure the avionics would have a secure career path

[john_tullamarine]

The system is in such a state of flux at the moment that you can't rely on predicting what the future will hold in detail.

At present, folk coming out ex SNCO are well placed to do some extra work and get the CASA licence.

Certainly ADF experience should sit you well to put your hat in the ring for an AME job .. problem is, why would you with the sort of rates an AME commands .. if you can't get the licence, it's a questionable exercise all round.

Moving to the EASA style system is a major paradigm shift and still being worked through by the Industry.

However, I guess the main thing would be that, if you are dead keen on the ADF, there should be no major impediment to switching across to civilian maintenance work, but probably with some work to get the ticks in the boxes.

I have a mate who runs a maintenance organisation spanning civil and military. He has a number of ex-military guys working for him who have done exactly what you are talking about in recent times. Depending on where you are located I'm sure he could suggest to you some research avenues to find out more about the situation. Feel free to PM me if you want to follow up that lead.

In the current environment, avionics is the way to go .. those guys are pretty well naming their own prices at present. That could change in the future and the EASA style of things certainly reduces the demand problem to some extent.

[TUF250]

What is the EASA program? what would that do for us in australia?

Avionics does look like a sure bet, definately cant see a slowing in the industry requirements for them.

I would definately be keen to hear from him or get in contact, I really am struggling to fins information on this topic

[TUF250]

Also can someone explain the career path of the avionics/mechanical AME/LAME to me?

There really isnt alot of clear info around.

Ie. About the logbook you must keep, I understand that must be completed to finihs your apprentiship?

The cert IV in aeroskills, what does that give you and where does it fit in?

How do you go from an AME to LAME? Just the exams?

PS I have read the defence force gets you to keep a logbook and you will be given a cert IV in aeroskills, would this help with a civilian conversion?

thanks

[piggybank]

I have tried sending good info on a free site three times and the free site was starred out, and message failed each time. The CASA info was OK but again message failed. Send me your e mail address to [email protected]

I will send you the info. No name needed.

I am on an oil company network up in PNG and maybe the mail is getting blocked. I will try and post again tomorrow on pprune as the info is for general reading.

[piggybank]

Try this link

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Home (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:GENPWA:0:svOldUrl=/formdisplay,svOldParams=?formtopic=ame&formnoin=&public=YES&Show%20forms=Show%20forms&netcat=y,svFromPC=)

Also advisory circulars9-0,9-1,9-5,9-91,9-92,9-93,9-94,9-95

Mine are from 2006 so there are probably new ones.

An excellent free site is http:www.****************.com/ for EASA info and free Qs and As.

When I tried to post this just now the site got starred out, if I see that happen I will PM you, see the top right corner of the screen for info on that.

[TUF250]

sent that email through now, thanks for the replies guys. if someone can takle the questions I had 2 posts up that would be great, really trying hard to get my head around this. PS have been through the casa site very thouroughly

Cheers

[Gas Bags]

Tuf,

I have worked with a few converters from the ADF over the years at various companies.

The basic gist is this...whatever trade you choose in the defense force (mechanical or avionics) when transferred to civil aviation when you leave the ADF will qualify you as an AME only.

From that point you will be required to sit and pass all your basic exams for your particular trade.

Then you will have to sit a type specific theory training course (i.e. B747-400 or some other civil aircraft). You will also be required to complete an SOE (Schedule Of Experience) on that type. This is the practical side of the training.

Once you have successfully completed both the theory and practical sides of the type specific training you submit your application for licence issue to CASA and they review it to determine if you are suitable to be granted the licence.

You need to repeat this process for each subsequent type you get endorsed on your license.

There is also a system called PCT (Practical Consolidated Training) that is offered by some airlines in Australia that is an alternative method to completing the SOE. It is much faster than SOE however it caters for the experienced Licence holder. For a first type rating your company can put you on the PCT course which will then entitle you to a 25% reduction in experience for your SOE which you will still be required to complete.

Each subsequent type you have added to your license entitles you to an additional 25% reduction in experience for your SOE (up to a maximum 75% reduction), should PCT not be available to you.

I do not have GA experience but I believe that the majority of endorsements are issued by CASA according to practical experience only. Perhaps the GA experienced pruners can add some light on that for you.

The career path is as above should you decide to go the RPT route when you leave the ADF. Bear in mind you are at the mercy of the airline you work for in receiving training and then subsequent upgrading from AME to LAME. You can finance and complete by yourself but the airline may not recognise your license if it does not suit them.

You will still hold the qualification nonetheless (it is issued by CASA, not the airline) and you could potentially move companies to receive the remuneration that comes with being an LAME if an airline does not want to recognise your qualification in this instance.

Airline work, particularly large airlines, can get very monotonous, and the politics very bitter and hard to stay out of. GA I believe is more rewarding satisfaction wise but quite often pays less. Depends on your priorities.

Hope this helps.

GB

[TUF250]

thats a great reply, thank you very much!

So lets say I leave the ADF as a aviation tech. (mechanical or avionics)

They give you the required cert IV for the trade and you have to keep a logbook (SOE?) with them. Does this logbook have any value towards the civilian conversion or is this purely to finish the apprenticeship?

How many exams are involved? (mech or avionics) Maybe I could do these while in the ADF? Are the exams general, ie not specific to a particular aircraft?

At this point you would then have to complete a SOE on a particular aircraft, how long does this take approximately per aircraft?

Be interesting to know what is involved to get into GA once you were say an airline LAME, seeing as you have already done the exams.

What are the approximate average pay rates (civilian)?
- airline ame/lame mechanical
- airline ame/lame avionics
- ga ame/lame mechanical
- ga ame/lame avionics

Thanks again to everyone for all their help

regards,
Jason

[Gas Bags]

Tuf,

You depart the ADF as an AME pure and simple. You will be recognised as an AME with nothing more than your ADF credentials.

Following that you are no different to a person who has completed an apprenticeship under the civil system.

Then you do the basic exams that are not type specific. You are looking at around ten to fifteen exams depending on your trade.

SOe will take you about 3 years. I took 4 years for my first type.

Pay rates depend on where you work, the number of types they operate and you are qualified on, and in Qantas the length of time you have been employed.

GB

[blackhand]

Re converting ADF experience to CASA Licence requirements.

ADF use a two signature system for certifying for maintenance.
If you have not held second signature authority for atleast 3 or 4 years (i.e. corporal or above) you will not easily satisfy the CASA requirements for sitting CTCs or recognition of experience.

and in Qantas the length of time you have been employed.
I thought it depended on how brown ones nose is.:}

Cheers
BH

[System Error]

Once you join up after recruit training you will start your trade training in Wagga ( forest Hill) here you will be tought the theory component of your Cert IV of Aeroskills, When you pass you will be posted out to a SQN where you will do the practical component of the Cert IV, When this is finished you will be the equivelent of a AME in Civvy street.

You can then continue further study and practical to attain a Diploma in Aeroskills or just a CASA B Maintenance under CAO 100.66 (as of 27th Jul 2011 CASR part 66). Or if you are a CPL or SGT you can sumitt for an RPL with a part 147 training organisation against the requirments for a CASA B MA under Cao 100.66 to see what further training ( if any) you require for the CASA B MA once this is completed you are then a LAME or pretend to be whatever you prefer.

All infor required is on the CASA website.

Cheers

[TUF250]

nce you join up after recruit training you will start your trade training in Wagga ( forest Hill) here you will be tought the theory component of your Cert IV of Aeroskills, When you pass you will be posted out to a SQN where you will do the practical component of the Cert IV, When this is finished you will be the equivelent of a AME in Civvy street.

You can then continue further study and practical to attain a Diploma in Aeroskills or just a CASA B Maintenance under CAO 100.66 (as of 27th Jul 2011 CASR part 66). Or if you are a CPL or SGT you can sumitt for an RPL with a part 147 training organisation against the requirments for a CASA B MA under Cao 100.66 to see what further training ( if any) you require for the CASA B MA once this is completed you are then a LAME or pretend to be whatever you prefer.

Thanks for the reply,

So the defence force will sponsor the diploma in aeroskills qualification? thats great if so.

So will significant experience as a CPL or SGT you can apply for RPL. This will with minimal extra training or none qualify as a LAME?

Just want to make sure I had it right. I take it this is the new EASA system? I take it once the RPL is recognised I would still need to complete a specific SOE on the new aeroplane type? eg passenger airlines.

Also what does the CASA B MA stand for. I am doing a little reading ont eh casa website now which hopefuly clears things up. very confussing!

[System Error]

Vist this site www.aviationaustralia.aero (http://www.aviationaustralia.aero) this is who I went through for my RPL for a CASA B2 under CAO100.66.

The more experience you have as SNCO the easier it is as there are provissions within the RPL process that accepts Military Maintanence release to service, supervision of staff ect.

once you apply and pay the $100.00 fee they send you a RPL kit which you fill out.
Once a Licence is issued, to sign for large aircraft over 5700kg MTOW you must undertake both theroy and Practical type training for each aircraft type you work on.
The old Hr Based SOE will be no more.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[TUF250]

is this already into effect in aust?

good to know that after a period of service in the defence force that I can transfer those skills to civil. How many years as a defence technician to gain the experience required to get an RPL for a LAME? generally speaking?

Would it be benificial to request postings on things like the king air, 737 fleet?

thanks