Industrial Action in Australia.

[floatsarmed]

Seems that industrial action in support of various stalled EBA's is set to put the cat amongst the pigeons in Australia.

Both CHC and HNZ /Cougar pilots have apparently already applied to take industrial action with the Bristow guys considering it soon.

With all three 'major' offshore operators possibly taking industrial action over the next few months it could really have an effect upon offshore gas/oil?

I expect the oil companies would be getting a bit 'twitchy' with the possibility of everyone taking IA at the same time?

[Nigel Osborn]

Bet they don't!! Lloyd/CHC crews have threatened action before but wimped out!:ok:

[gulliBell]

The post is a bit confusing. Are the Operators taking Industrial action against the pilots, or are the pilots taking Industrial action against the Operators?

For the good sake of all of them I hope it doesn't boil down to Industrial action. History shows that, whatever the merits of the case, all of the participants will get their names recorded on the "never to be employed again" list in the employer secret little black book.

[Heliringer]

We have a mindset in this industry that pilots can be replaced at anytime and that gives management the upperhand in any negotiations.


So services will not be affected.

[floatsarmed]

Gullibell,

Pilots taking protected Industrial action against the company to try and get a better pay deal. :ok:

Floats'

[flipcelia]

All,

enough is enough in our Offshore industry...YES, CHC HNZ/Cougar and Bristow are part of this industry Offshore/oil/gas) and should be compensated in line with the industry that we are part of!

I am tired of being under paid and walked all over. IA has been approved for two of the three operators and if the first thread is to be believed the third operator will be following suit soon. If this is what it takes to be paid on a level playing field, then so be it.

We are at the bottom of the pile because we are generally a spineless lot who will look after themselves when push comes to shove (don't take personal offense). I am tired of peers whining about conditions and pay, but when given the opportunity they seem to lose their voice - Gents, we have a second opportunity (we made some gain last boom) to advance our conditions and climb from the bottom of the pile if we all stick together! It is possible and we all seem to be singing from the same sheet of music at the moment - Lets keep it going

Who's on board?

[GreenerGrass]

Nigel,

They didn't wimp out last time. They had voted yes for PIA and were all set to go. The company then won an appeal in the IRC that if they did strike lives would be in danger because EMS services would be interrupted.

Heliringer,

I'll think you'll find that these days the guys realise they have expensive skills and endorsements(139/225/AS332/76C++) that aren't replaced cheaply. So management doesn't have the upper hand. Management also know that the oil/gas companies are watching them closely and the last thing they want is a disruption to their service.

Why should the lowest paid people on a flight to an oil/gas rig be the two guys up the front?

[trimpot]

The CHC crewies went ahead with their strike Nigel ;)

Could have been the fault of the b@stard that was one of the rep's at the time :}

[Nigel Osborn]

ST

Look who the crewies had as their rep!!!:ok:

[Igor13]

Hey GG

In answer to your question 'why should we be the lowest paid on the aircraft?'

I think it's obvious......

We are just not as good looking as the riggies! :{

I am sure it gives them a comfortably smug feeling as well.

They are sensitive creatures, more so than pilots, now that's sensitive!

Yes Yes, I know?! I have just made another completely pointless post. :=

Be kind

[That lights normal!]

According to the latest AFAP newsletter: CHC Australia pilots “...have overwhelmingly voted to support protected industrial:ok: action after their negotiations effectively stopped:ugh:...”

[212man]

Why should the lowest paid people on a flight to an oil/gas rig be the two guys up the front?

Jesus - not that old line again!

[pohm1]

It's an "old line" because no one has done anything about trying to change it until recently. The last couple of years has seen positive change in offshore T&C's and the next few weeks will see yet more. Motivated pilot bodies are realising their worth!

Watch this space....

P1

[TalkSpike]

Jesus - not that old line again!

Alright for you 212man and your sweet expat deal in Brunei, you prob earn 10X the wage of the man in the back of your machine, and prob 2X the wage of the local cojo sitting next to you.

So yes, that old line again, and again, and again, until we are at least on parity with the guys in the back.

TalkSpike.
:ok:

[noooby]

So does that mean that corporate pilots earn the same as the corporate passengers they carry in the back??

Comparing pilot pay between different companies/locations/skill requirements is relevant, but comparing your pay to the pay of people in the back who are not in a related work speciality? That just doesn't make sense.

I must pass your idea on to a 747 buddy of mine and see if he can get his pay changed to match the highest earning passenger on the aircraft. You can bet he'd be a very happy man!!

Oh, and if you're and expat working for at least one of the companies in Nigeria, you'll find that you earn about half of what the local pilots earn, not double. But then Nigeria is a force unto its own :}

:ok: :ok: 212man

[heliduck]

Good point nooby. When scouting pipelines with a highly paid consultant I thought I should have been on more money, but when tree planting I was paid more than all of my passengers combined! By the way, not once did I argue that I should be paid the same as a tree-planter!!

Different occupations aside, I think the point people are trying to make is that although they are pilots, they are still working within the oil & gas industry & would like to be paid comparitively with others of their skill/responsibility level in the industry. The problem is, although we work in the oil & gas we come under the sub-umbrella of aviation. I think if pilots were employed directly by the oil & gas companies things would be a little different?

[Senior Pilot]

nooby,

Having been in the front seat of too many offshore flights, I believe that GreenerGrass has a point. He says, quite pertinently, that the front seats are the lowest paid people on the flight, not that they should be getting the same as the highest paid passenger (attractive as that may be!). Among the pax are the cooks, the stewards, the first time roustabouts: they're all getting better money than the drivers who have invested money, time and then years of experience to get where they are.

The forces of supply and demand dictate to a large degree what a profession gets paid. Our profession has beggared itself for years, with the appeal of being a helicopter pilot outweighing the ability to earn a good living from the profession.

Good luck to the Australian pilots in their negotiations :ok:

[212man]

Among the pax are the cooks, the stewards, the first time roustabouts: they're all getting better money than the drivers who have invested money, time and then years of experience to get where they are.


That's my point - it's a fallacy to say that.

I work for an oil company at the same salary grade as an OIM, so I have some idea of what the figures are. My (UK based) base salary is somewhere at the bottom of the current UK North Sea Captains' scales (like year 2-3.) It's true that there would be additional allowances on top of that for an offshore employee, as there are for offshore based helicopter pilots.

I'm not aiming to start a bun fight about global salaries - far from it - I'm just trying to point out that to perpetuate the myth that everyone on a helicopter earns more than the pilots does nobody any favours. If used in the negotiating argument it may even be counterproductive as it will be shown to be just that - a myth!

[TalkSpike]

Noooby,

If you haven't worked it out by now you are in an offshore thread, no one is suggesting that Rupert Murdoch's pilot should be paid the same as the boss. :ugh:

212man,

I was on my way to work here in Aus sitting down the back of a 737 next to a guy who cleaned LNG tankers when they are in port (cabins, kitchens etc), he earned twice what I did!

I'm sure we are not the lowest paid workers offshore but on the average I think O & G companies can afford a little more for the services we provide. BP managed to anti up US$20B weeks after the SHTF in the Gulf of Mexico, I'm sure they can afford it. (well maybe not BP anymore :}).

TalkSpike.

[kwikenz]

212 Man

By your own admission, you are basing your comments on a North Sea scenario.

Here's a few facts about Australia which is what this thread is about afterall:

-BALPA rates for pilots show 10-15% better salaries for North Sea offshore pilots versus Aussy equivalent despite a higher cost of living in Australia

-Kitchen hands earns roughly the same as a year 5 Captain even before allowances!

-20 year old unskilled ramp attendants get paid about the same as a First Officer

It may well be fair to say that the pilots don't earn less than everyone on the machine... but the fact is in Australia, they certainly earn less than most of them!

It should be remembered that the North Sea guys got a big head start on pay and conditions relative to the rest of the world.

Pilots are professionals who spend many years and often many thousands of dollars mastering their art. They conduct daily what is considered one of the riskiest tasks in the oil and gas enterprise. Paying them the same as a kitchen hand or a cleaner is :mad:!

Its time that changed!

[Outwest]

I'm not aiming to start a bun fight about global salaries

Too late ;)

[noooby]

Heliduck, you have a point, but if we were paid on responsibility, engineers would be paid the most, as they have the lives of the passengers AND the pilots in their dirty little underpaid and underappreciated hands (and they spend years longer training than the two guys up front), yet they don't even figure in anyones calculations as they are considered a cost that a company must bear.

If I wanted lots of money, I'd work in the dirt and mud as a drill hand on a rig. If I wanted to do the job I wanted and earn an Ok wage, I'd stick with the job I have.

Manual labour jobs historically are paid more than a lot of other jobs (road working crews for instance). If you want the money, I'm sure there are road working crews, or oil rig cleaningmaintenance companies looking for employees. Long term the prospects probably aren't that great, as opposed to our industry where the long term prospects are probably better.

[heliduck]

Nooby, you are correct again - engineers should be paid more than the bonehead sitting in the cockpit!
Another example to highlight my agreement with your reasoning - years ago a plumber visited my friends place & charged him $80/hr to get in & clean his septic tank. An exhorbitant rate at that time, but I didn't begrudge him a cent as I figured he was earning every bit of it. I certainly wouldn't have done the job for twice that rate!
The resource sector pay low skilled workers so well because if they don't they won't get the workers, not many people really want to live on a rig & do that **** but the money attracts them. It's an unfortunate fact of life that this is not the case for most pilots, we do it because we want to & therefore companies don't have to pay disproportionate salaries to attract workers.

Therein lies the basis of this discussion - I understand why we are paid less, I just don't think it is fair.

[peter manktelow]

Commodity Prices

When the oil companies want a helicopter what do they do ? They seek the best value ($/safety/efficiency combination) that they can find. Helicopter transport is just one more component OR commodity they require to get that oil and gas up and out. When a helicopter company is selected to provide that service , they too must get the best value for the various commodities they must put in that helicopter to get it up and away. Fuel , parts…..and pilots. Yes , we are just one more commodity in the big equation.

As a long time Canuck flyer (I am actually an Aussie but been Canadianized over the last 30 years) I had always felt that I belonged to a big happy family and effectively sold myself accordingly. Times have now changed. When I came in to the offshore industry I was paid the equivalent of an F27 captain. Now I would be lucky to draw the equivalent of a Dash 8 copilot. Salary and conditions have undergone a long slow erosion process.

I now belong to a mammoth sized(now , unfortunately , impersonal) organization. The commodity (me) is now being sold by the GHPA (my union). They are currently doing this by way of negotiating the best price they can as part of a collective bargaining agreement with the company I work for.

Commodity prices are based on supply and demand AND the negotiating skills of the seller.

If we do not get top dollar now…….then we never will….and this from a man who , until he started to seriously look at his retirement nest egg , was happy to go with the flow and flew almost solely for the fun and grand adventure it has always been.

So , to my Australian colleagues....go for it

[Nigel Osborn]

Sounds like I overpaid you!!:ok:

In the mid 60s, as a bush pilot flying a Bell 47 with all the various allowances & bonuses, a DC9 pilot told me I got more than him! Haven't times changed!

[floatsarmed]

Oh yes, times have changed a bit since the mid 60's?

Flying modern multi engined systems aircraft offshore IFR is a world away from bush work 40 years ago in a 47 and people need to be paid accordingly.

Now before the usual ranting starts I'm not having a crack at bush drivers here.:)

One of the problems of the industry is that some guys never actually make the change in their own minds as to the fact that they are now doing a much more complicated job which requires all the skills of a bush driver and more besides. Thankfully these guys are now all seeing the light and are sticking together to get a better deal and a bigger slice of the pie.

In the modern offshore enviroment and IFR/EMS work you need to be paid accordingly and bush wages just don't cut it anymore. Some good advances in conditions have been made over the last few years but the sooner management realise that the base price for an experienced multiengined IFR offshore pilot has gone up the better.

It is a basic supply and demand problem....the company need their Pilots to be highly qualified, safe and very experienced because that is after all part of the overall product that they sell to the client. This level of qualification and experience takes a long time to aquire and the idea of 'shaking the pilot tree and seeing what falls out' went out with the ark. :ok:

Apparently we now need to be "moving forward".

[flipcelia]

thought......

In a large offshore Company, if the head office staff all decide to take the day off at once, the Company continues to make money. If the pilots all decide to take the off at once.....well, the Company probably wouldn't make much money that day! In fact, they would probably be paying their clients penalties.

As a pilot, what are you worth to your Company?:*

[Pullharder]

Flipcelia....you have it right....we may not get our hands "dirty" like the manual workers people here are saying that get paid well...but we do the " manual work" in terms of our profession :ooh: We "earn the money" for the company's by flying to the rigs.....Just because we stay clean doesn't mean we should be paid less...Without us, or the engineers, the other "manual workers" (with dirty hands):ok: the companies earn nothing....
Stick together lads, don't believe the lies management tell you about tough economic times, the company just does not have the money crap etc.... CHC UK used this last year trying to take advantage of the recession and have just made 250 million in profits (up from 170 million last year):eek: Not bad huh during " tough times"....and they tell the pilots they need to work more days to "help the company out":ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:
I wish you all the best.....
P.H.

[floatsarmed]

The financial reports of companies like CHC/BHA are in the public domain so anyone can see how they are performing. Even a cursory glance indicates that the industry is once again booming with more to come. If CHC are crying poor then they must think very little of the people who are actually at the very pointy end of making a handsome profit.:=

If all this turns into IA then, as has been said, they won't be making any money if people choose to take a stand and finally get salaries onto a professional level.

[movin' up]

Well, jungle drums are beating to the sound of industrial action!

Wonder how Woodside will be viewing Allan Blake's failure to sort out the pay deal for the Bristow Pilots without them striking? :=

[ifsknt]

Mr. Blake's hands are probably tied by Houston and Redhill, BHA has operated this way for years, most GMs in Australia have little autonomy to get things done.

In the old days, Redhill always promoted an adversarial relationship with the Pilot's Union and the pilots. They thought that they could do in Australia what they did on the North Sea in 1977 but its never worked.

[sunnywa]

Noting all the comments about pilots being commodities (mostly all true), the fact is now the pilots are highly trained (ATPLs multi IFR etc) operators that don't grow on trees. They are not easily replaced in the short term. If the pilots don't stick together now and get the best for themselves (and that will flow on to the rest of the industry), they never will.
Go for it boys and I wish you the best of luck:ok:

[floatsarmed]

Have the CHC or HNZ guys taken any IA yet? Also heard that HNZ Pilots may have struck a deal?