Is BA still the Holy Grail of airlines?!

[bigjarv]

We generally hear very little about BA and it's terms and conditions or specifically any moaning about them. I can only assume that the money versus lifestyle balance is good OR the BA boys have more exciting things to do than moan on pprune (which in itself tells a story!)!

Just wondering if a few guys from BA would mind sharing their current feelings on the company as a place to work on both short and long haul. I know the pay is around or slightly above industry standards but it is the bits around this that I am most interested in? Do you get quality time off, is morale pretty good, do you feel well looked after and finally any comments or complaints?

[strikemaster82]

We work up to to 900 hours on both long & short. I usually fly between 800-850. I won't talk pay as I'm sure someone will be along in a minute and point you at a link. 4 weeks leave plus 2 'duty free weeks' which you can bid to work in or leave as days off.

Bidline system at LHR means choice of work patterns if you are not in the lower part of the seniority list on that fleet.

We are fairly well looked after, T5 is great, morale is OK, we are all fed up with the cabin crew situation though, my only complaint is having to take a pay-cut recently.

The LGW boys may have their own ideas.

There are many more aspects to life in BA but I have been in a while, my perspective is different from someone very junior.

[bigjarv]

Would you ever want to go anywhere else?

[Scouser1]

My better half recently took voluntary redundancy after 25 years at BA. In the early years,he loved it,but latterly he came to hate it. 900 hours a year,limited time at home-and absolutely knackered on your couple of days off. Sims had become a nightmare too. They gave him a lousy 2 days off when his Mum died while he was away on a trip,he'd get phone calls from them within an hour of going to bed on arrival home..hit's not all it's cracked up to be..

[fred737]

S 1.

Do what our American cousins taught us years ago when we were new to the concept of Draft. Have a second line installed and only answer the one Scheduling have when you are contractually obliged to. (Standby and contractual Time Assignability) At other times don't answer it unless you want to.

[fiftypercentn1]

very high price of being an expat

I guess that depends on where you are from:E

agree with you for the rest though

[PENKO]

Holy grail? No.
Nice company? Yes, but have you seen the trouble they have? I like peace and quiet, do the job, go home, no politics.

So I do envy my friends at BA, but just a little bit

[TheKabaka]

As a BA FO, I think there is really only one huge advantage to BA (apart possibly from job security). It is choice you decide your roster, what fleet you fly, even which seat you occupy. BA cannot (if you stay within the rules) assign you anything its entirely up to you and your seniority.

There are other more minor advantages. such as the money eventually been quite good, and you are generally very well looked after. Anyone who has worked for another airline knows that.

Obviously the pension has gone these days, although the new one is ok when compared to other defined contribution schemes.

[Big Trevor]

The best thing for me are the night stops. I am shorthaul but can still work a five day block staying overnight at 4 different European cities. I don't think there are many shorthaul operators that offer both our variety of routes and night stops. Also, in my experience the rosters are very stable, you know what you are doing 6 weeks in advance and it doesn't change.

[JB007]

I like peace and quiet, do the job, go home, no politics.

Don't you work for easyJet?!?

[PENKO]

Our politics shrink in comaprison :ok:

[Farfrompuken]

CW.

Your sources have got the wrong end of the stick!!

It was part of an ongoing training exchange between the RAF and BA. 'They' didn't do a 'presentation', merely shared ideas and discussed training issues. No recruitment 'roadshow'.

I suggest that the CC problems will need to be resolved before recruitment kicks off....

[Baron buzz]

But - there is a lot of talk of BA recruiting within the next 12 months. Is this simply a rumour that has got out of hand, or is there some truth to it?

As someone who was recently made redundant, I look at BA and think it's the only airline in the UK that a) hasn't made anyone redundant, despite the financial issues both the UK and the airline are having and b) isn't employing anyone on either pay to fly, reduced term, summer only or any other stupid contract.

Can you name any other large airline, with respectable terms and conditions and job security in the UK that fits that description?

BB

[Farfrompuken]

CW,

It was nearly 6 months ago and recruitment wasn't discussed TBH. No knowledge of holding pool info or timescales, I'm afraid.

As mentioned earlier, they've got other issues that are of concern, so I don't think they'll be offering a recruitment roadshow just yet!!!

[Biggles78]

BA certainly treated Peter Burkill well, didn't they. :yuk:

[Chief Brody]

Am generally happy with life at BA.

Good DEP salary with yearly increments too that aren't just a token jesture.

No bond.

Good travel perks.

Crew food is good for the most part.

Fly lots of line trips with trainers who are all very approachable.

Standard of training I find to be very good and done at social hours - in my experience.

There's the scope to move onto bigger things and almost everybodys cool with the concept of seniority - meaning all good things to those who wait.

Linked to the above, yes time to command can be a long time - but in which legacy carrier isn't it?

True the atmosphere now what with the CC can be trying at times, but it will come to an end and on the horizon we have more 777s/320s on the order books, in addition to the 787 and 380 to look forward to. Not to mention the new LH routes being considered.

One thing I do think is a bit luke warm is our advertising department. What was that last TV ad campaign all about - wilderbeast running across the African plains etc etc??? How long was it on telly for - six weeks?? Why didn't we highlight all the great things that have happened since our last TV ad - T5, London City to JFK, the new club clsss product, new first class, flying the Olympic team home from Beijing etc!

I'm no advertising guru and by no means do I have satchi and satchi on speed dial but this was a good tv ad - a solid mix of cheesiness, class and patriotism (you need sound and I advise full screen mode).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64IMaou8lU&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64IMaou8lU&NR=1)

Advertising rant over, I enjoy going to work each day - is it the company or the people that make that so - probably both. Have got lots of respect for BA.

CB

[hollingworthp]

Chief,

What's a ballpark average time to upgrade?

[Farfrompuken]

CW. See CB's post. My impression of them was very favourable. Sounds a good choice to me!!

[License to Fly]

No recruitment is planned for this year and BA will decide in Nov/Dec about next years numbers. At the moment there IS a plan to recruit next year but we all know how quickly things change in this industry!

They will look at those in the old holding pool first ... not sure what sort of process they will have to go through as I guess it depends how many years they have been in the pool

[Jet22]

BA is, for me, the ultimate ambition. It's nice to see that they have fairly good T&C'S for the pilots.

Just a quick few question's;

The Airbus Family guys do they operate out of BOTH LGW&LHR or just LHR or LGW exclusively?

Can anyone fly the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY flight, or is there only a certain 'pool' of pilots that do this route? Bit like the Concorde Which base operates this flight aswell?

With regards to Short haul/Long Haul -

Could you upgrade into a captain position on Short Haul, then onto Long Haul as captain? Or are you offered a choice of Captain Position Short Haul or SFO Long Haul?

With regards to bases, 747 is at LHR, is 772 at LGW&LHR, or just LHR or LGW exclusively?

[PPRuNeUser0204]

Never will they miss Little Jonny's school play

Unless one gets into BA in their early twenties this won't happen will it? If they are in their late twenties/early thirties when they join and have kids they won't have the seniority to get to Little Jonny's school play?

Seniority comes with seniority, so Little Jonny won't be so little when it comes round.

[Scouser1]

Ballpark time to command? In my betters half's case, joined SH 1985, went onto LH 1987,command LH 2001.

[Human Factor]

Ballpark time to command? In my case, joined in 1998, LHR command in 2008 (Shorthaul).

For future Nigels, as with current ones, time to command is up there with "how long is a piece of string". Everything is done on seniority (DoJ) so when you have the seniority and you bid for the seat, you will get it subject to passing a command course. Traditionally, rough ballpark seniority numbers based upon 3000 or so pilots are as follows: for the avoidance of doubt and for the DEAF, ROUGH BALLPARK FIGURES:

Shorthaul co-pilot: direct entry
Longhaul co-pilot: 2500 ish or direct entry
Shorthaul command (LGW): 2100 ish
Shorthaul command (LHR): 1900 ish
Longhaul command: 1000 ish

These numbers vary signficantly from year to year depending on retirements, vacancies, movements between fleets, etc. This bid year, the most junior shorthaul command was 1200 ish!!

How long it takes for anyone to get to a particular seniority level depends entirely and only upon the rate of retirements. Currently, very few are leaving as the retirement age has increased recently.

I write, not to put anyone off but to give everyone a sense of perspective. BA is a good place to work on the whole. There is a lot of politics and you either learn to deal with it or learn to ignore it (both techniques work well). Rosters are stable, the company is likely to stay in business for the long term and there is plenty of variety in terms of types, trips, longhaul and shorthaul and the pay is competitive. Seniority governs most of your life so if you're at the back of a recruitment bulge, life isn't fantastic but it will improve the day the next person joins behind you. Whatever your view of "seniority", that's the way it is and it has worked well since before most of the people on the list were born.

We're likely to be recruiting either late 2010 or early 2011 by the way. Not sure whether it's for longhaul or shorthaul though, which will dictate previous experience requirements.

[License to Fly]

[COLOR=#000063]The Airbus Family guys do they operate out of BOTH LGW&LHR or just LHR or LGW exclusively?

LHR - but there have been 3 at LGW, no one really knows the plan, but they are meant to return to LHR

Can anyone fly the LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY flight, or is there only a certain 'pool' of pilots that do this route

Only pilots who have bid to do it and are specially trained (all based on seniority)

Could you upgrade into a captain position on Short Haul, then onto Long Haul as captain? Or are you offered a choice of Captain Position Short Haul or SFO Long Haul?

you will be offered SFO LH first, but you can wait for Captain SH (but pay is better SFO LH than SFO SH)

With regards to bases, 747 is at LHR, is 772 at LGW&LHR, or just LHR or LGW exclusively?

only 737's are LGW - pilots for every other fleet are now LHR based and commute to LGW if needed



Answers to questions in bold above

[theearl]

Phensock

As a junior LH FO just thought i would add to your comment. Last year I had possibly 10+ commitments, weddings , birthdays etc etc. I managed to attend all of them via bidding (Very low seniority) swops etc. So even though I don't have any plays to attend you could be the very bottom of the list and still have a say in your roster / life.

Fully agree that seniority comes with time but this is the first airline I have worked with that gives me a say in what I do every month.

BA has its faults but tell me of another airline that gives you this flexibility. ?

[Chief Brody]

Yep the time to command question is not an easy one to answer. The seniority numbers mentioned earlier are a very good indicator - think of them as triggers if you will. A number which once at or below your bid for command has a good chance. So the question becomes: How long to reach those sort of seniority numbers?

If someone was to ask me in the pub my answer would probably be: between 10 and 15 years from date of joining.

There’s just soooooo many variables.

Do you want your first command to be LH or SH?
Now that the retirement age is 65 (watch this space), how many folk will really stay that long?
What implications will the recent tax changes have - will there be a steady stream of people going part-time freeing up some space below?
Would you consider a Gatwick command - Gatters is afterall considered by some at BA to be the poor relation in the family.

----

Also, the original question was whether BA was still the holy of holys (or words to that effect).

My answer is no. Or more precisely this: BA sits among a group of about 20 airlines (IMHO) - any one of which offer their pilots the same thing - a pleasant lifestyle, a secure working environment and a sensible wage - with a chance to tick all the boxes over the course of their career with them.

----

Little things I like about BA (in no particular order)

1) Whilst no crew food will ever make the Michelin guide its nice that we have some control over what we shovel in. For example I opt for a fruit platter breakfast (in addition to cereal, yoghurt and Danish if the pursers in a nice mood!), a lucky dip lunch (meaning just normal non specific) and a low calorie supper - thinking back to my previous life, hoola hoops, Dairy Lee Dunkers and a chicken mayo salad with more calories than an easter egg come to mind.
2) Like many other airlines we can purchase as many ID90 tickets as we want to - for BA or numerous others in the staff travel scheme. But the bit I like is that from the date you join you are eligible for two club seats anywhere on the network once a year (just pay the taxes) - this becomes first class when you become a skipper.
3) When you take your holiday, if travelling from Heathrow you can use the staff car park free for two weeks.
4) If a qualified volunteer sim panel operator you can take friends and family into the sim when they're not being used for training - 60 quid an hour for a go in a 747 or 777.
5) FSRC or Flying Staff Recreation Club. Basically pay 2 quid a month and when you pitch up at a hotel down route there is gym membership, golf clubs, bikes, tennis rackets, surf boards etc etc there for you to use at no extra cost.
6) NUBRIEF - the pilot briefing pack used by BA. When I worked for my previous employer so much time was wasted downloading and printing met, aircraft and route info most of which was non important anyway. With NUBRIEF you swipe your ID, out comes all the relevant data for you trip, you use the electronic stapler to pop it all together and then go and brief whilst enjoying your discounted cup of designer coffee. Magic.
7) Letters of thanks - ok I am going to be shot to pieces for this with others saying this never happens to them, nevertheless I’ll proceed. Every now and then all of us are asked to step up to the plate and go beyond the call of duty (to borrow the American vernacular) - That said each time I have within a month there has been a letter on my doorstep saying thank you, it didnt go un-noticed and its been added to my file - recognition of a job well done. Did this ever happen at my previous west country based employer - I'll let you guess the answer.

----

Would I ever leave BA? Yes.

But only for a sizeable improvement in my lifestyle. And by this I mean one which warranted the inevitable disturbance on my family life. Is BA the be all and end all, na - but it's pretty darn good.

[EXEZY]

How's the training department in BA, is there a big emphasis on training rather than checking? The lack of this is the biggest problem in the place I currently work.

[kotakota]

I think Earl and Brody have done you all a service with 2 excellent posts .
I miss BA for all the reasons they have outlined - excellent control over your family and social life being BIG . A happy pilot is a productive one . No job is perfect , but BA have got morale pretty good ( I am not talking about the other lot at the moment ! ).
The DOJ gives you the knowledge that no-one will ever be a DEC and take your rightful command , when you have ticked all the boxes of course.
I was a lucky joiner in 96 ( RHS 747 ) who got a command at LGW after 1 year . This happened because of the ridiculous pay structure at the time , and because of my extensive 737 command experience. I was very lucky in that the pay almost immediately improved for LGW crew and by the time I reached 55 the current all-encompassing pay structure was being introduced . This has of course levelled both playing fields ( LHr and LGW ) so I guess I would agree that current time to command would be 12-15 years ( CURRENTLY ) but this always changes with adjustments to fleet strength and other factors ie more changes to retirement age etc . However , I reckon that any increase in retirement age above 65 , if it were ever to happen , would mean the wrinklies being restricted to RHS . But , I think the rule about 2 60+ year-olds not being allowed to fly together may well scupper any ideas about this ever happening. Rostering / Bidline may well be excellent , but Standbys ( or Reserve in Nigel-speak ) would become fraught .
Its all a bit like cricket when it comes to joining BA or not , win the toss , think about bowling , but bat anyway.

[Scouser1]

Training or checking in the sim??Wouldn't want to say here what I think of training dept..

[bigjarv]

All things considered I guess it is then! Thanks for all the replies! Just need some recruitment now so I can have a bat!!

[PPRuNeUser0204]

theearl, that's pretty good!

[ba038]

Has anyone got any info with regards to pay?

I know it works by rank of how many years you have been with the company but i am interested in approx.fig of one that has been there for 5 years or so.And is your salary capped.Its been a while since PPJN has been updated with BA pay figures.

FO shorthaul? lomghaul? captain short haul? longhaul? etc.Or is it all down to ones senority?

[markp123]

Is it true that BA would only recruit pilots who have completed their flying training on an integrated course, forgetting about us poor modulars :(

[Eddie_Crane]

s it true that BA would only recruit pilots who have completed their flying training on an integrated course

That is only true for inexperienced flight crew, i.e. SSP pilots ("cadet entry" if you will).

[Human Factor]

Is it true that BA would only recruit pilots who have completed their flying training on an integrated course, forgetting about us poor modulars.

It's to guarantee consistency of training and to produce a continuous record of training. If you have gone down the modular route and wish to apply to BA, join another company first and complete 500 hours (I think). You will then be considered qualified to join BA as a DEP.

Interestingly, after potentially just a year working for another company, you can join BA on a noticeably higher payscale than a SSP and you will be better off than you would have been having joined straight out of Oxford - albeit, you will be a year further down the seniority list.

[markp123]

Cheers for that :)

[cargodogs]

I don't believe there are any "holy grail" companies left out there any more. I have a few buddies in BA, and they are very happy. The one thing to consider about joining any European flag carrier (and I'm not talking about Virgin here. :-), is that they are under a lot of strain to uphold the old traditional competitive packages. No doubt, working for a flag carrier will give you the best overall package. But there's been a lot of pressure from the LCC's in recent years, but they've always had their fairly large long haul segment to generate income. Now the pressure is also arriving on that segment. Carriers from the Middle East is dead set on gnawing away on the European carriers' traditional routes (the kangaroo route amongst others).

What has this got to do with the OP, you ask? LOTS. I missed the boat (ie I felt I was too old to wait 10-15 years for command), but I would've loved to join. However, if you join now, you are probably looking at a 25-35 year career prospect. I don't, for one minute, believe that the stories you hear about BA (and other flag carriers) today, will hold true throughout a career.

Holy grail? No! As close as you'll get to the holy grail? Absolutely yes!

If I was in the start of my career, I would join in a split second. If what I've written above is wrong, you'll enjoy a fantastic career in one of the greatest carriers in the world (IMHO). If I'm right, you can ALWAYS go down the contract/expat path. In fact, the latter is almost always a one way street.

[Aitch812]

I can understand BA recruiting from integrated courses due to the continuity in training and the ability to track a candidate's progress all the way through and it makes perfect sense. Would someone be excluded from the recruitment process if they conducted all their training modularly at one school, that also runs integrated courses, due to time constraints/ current work commitments?

[Laker]

I think the Fedex package is far superior to BA. SWA might even be better. Captains at SWA can make 350k+/USD per year with quite a few days off. Fedex captains are able to make that kind of money without working very hard and they have a superb retirement. I think calling BA the "holy grail" of flying jobs is a bit off the mark.

[Timothy Claypole]

Yes but how many Europeans can work for FedEx or SWA? If you've got a US passport or Green Card and an FAA licence go for it. If not.....

[Laker]

true. I was just responding to the original post which asked if BA was the holy grail of airlines. He didn't qualify that by saying European airlines or airlines based in the UK.

[bigjarv]

That's what I meant! Sorry I wasn't more specific!

[SOP79]

A question if i may?

Lets say I am a year one SH FO (LHR), would the remaining bid lines allow a junior FO to have a roster meaning they could commute from the midlands? ( Touring Roster) Or would you end up with space ship miles on the car and a second home on the M40!!??

Cheers
SOP

[52049er]

SOP

You can probably work on 10+ reports a month as a junior SH. I commute from the top end of the M40 and its a fairly easy drive (<1hr30 to the car park).

Of course that would be for a 'normal' month with no leave or duty free week. As being at the bottom of the list would mean a 'Blindline' - ie being given a roster consisting of the trips not chosen by more senior pilots - it would almost certainly involve working every weekend. Thats the biggest moan from Junior pilots in either seat - its easy to go for quite a few months without having a weekend off.

However, getting the seniority to change that often doesnt take more than a couple of years - the rumour at the moment talks of up to 500 places moving in the next 6 years (so there would be 500 people junior to you in the company) as a result of the most senior guys retiring at 60 and tax changes meaning part time looks very tempting. Of course that is only a guess and it could be only 200. There has never been an average move each year - many of the current most senior LH Captains waited 20 years + for their first (SH) command.

As far as training goes, I have no complaints at BA. Sim checks have recently been reformed, so the old style box-ticking 'RTO-EFATO-ILS-GA-NPA-OEI landing' session is now just once a year, and the second check is very much more focussed on open ended LOFT excercises and perceived training needs that have been thrown up by SESMA and FCR's. Equally, as an FO, you'll fly frequently with a training Captain, almost all of whom are more than happy to run your flights as (very informal) training sectors if you so wish.

Holy Grail? Not quite, but its a great laugh most of the time, the pay is good, the rosters are totally stable (which to me is the biggie) and the lifestyle choices (SH/LH/Part time) are good. We even have a new online trip swap system which has the potential to be a game changer.

[sidtheesexist]

As 'junior trash' you'll end up with a blind line with all the stuff left over from the bidding process. Commuter lines which comprise 4/5 day tours are extremely popular, particularly with the folks nth of Hadrian's Wall. That said, some senior, non-commuters, get the 'commuter lines' and clash some of the trips out and some of these can fall through to be allocated to the BL holders like you!

My feeling is that you will be racking up a lot of mway miles tho' I know plenty of folks who drive down from the E/W midlands and the nthwest. Hope this is of use. Rgds, Sid

[SOP79]

Thanks guys

On average would these Blind Lines include night stopping or would I end up at LHR everynight and looking at a massive daily commute?
I gather there is no requirment to be within a 60/90 min call from standby?
What is the general roster pattern for " Junior trash " SH FO? 5 on 2 off etc

[sidtheesexist]

You'll prob end up with a mix of stuff - low credit day trips and some 2,3,4 and 5 day tours. The high credit day trips eg Ist, get hoovered up by senior guys for obvious reasons - the more high credit days you do, the less days you are at work. The roster pattern will be quite varied and cannot be summarised as 5 on 2 off etc....

[EXEZY]

What's the recruitment for the A320?

[humanperformer]

It is for me! once my bond has expired i'm applying (if they are still named BA and of course are hiring :p)

[Dan 98]

Does anyone know how many days off you get in a 28 day period?

Thanks

[fcom]

Virgin are still the best airline to work for in the UK by a long chalk.Motivation still reasonably good considering the industry at the moment, personally I've never had it so good.:ok:

[Megaton]

Virgin are still the best airline to work for in the UK by a long chalk

Really? Ask all those who've been laid off in the recent past if they think this is true. BA has at least negotiated voluntary redundancies when cuts were required.