Seperation of Arriving and Departing Passengers

[Skipness One Echo]

Why do some EU countries quite happily not need to do this? Transiting AMS and GVA this last month the vibe is actually way less stressful.

With appropriate border controls in place, why in the UK do we have 100s of stern looking security types in dayglo yellow opening and closing glass doors as needed to keep us apart from our fellow travellers?

They are allowed to mix freely at T1 and T5 at Heathrow with a photo check preventing undesirables getting onto a domestic flight to bypass the UK Border check. What is the huge danger of allowing the two flows to meet?

[ExXB]

... GVA was not in an EU country. I believe it is in the Republic and Canton of Geneva (part of Switzerland)

Can someone explain why separating arriving and departing passengers is 'a good thing'? One assumes that both categories of passengers have been through security. Perhaps if a flight is arriving from a 'poor-security' country, this might be necessary but ..

In other words, the security guys at the last airport took away my water, my nail clippers and my golf club - why do I need to experence this trauma one more time? :ugh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<GVA was not in an EU country. I believe it is in the Republic and Canton of Geneva (part of Switzerland)>>

I thought Switzerland was in Europe?

[bfisk]

Well, they are not members of the EU (European Union).

[Capetonian]

Switzerland is to all intents and purposes a member of the Schengen (free circulation of criminals, illegal immigrants, trafficked people, Nigerian scammers) area, and of the European Economic Area, but remains outside the EU.

The airport has a French side and a Swiss side.

[Skipness One Echo]

Either way, Amsterdam is in the EU. I got off an NWA flight a while back and was freely mixing with departing passengers heading to the four corners of the globe. Why are we so controlling in the UK?

If there's a compelling reason, or better a link to the document, can someone post

Ta

[dhc83driver]

Ams has security checks at the gate so you were land side ish, (apart from immigration) from stepping off the air bridge until you went through screening at the gate on the out bound flight. Pax in the gate are seperated from everyone else. Places with central search tend to separate pax and screen transfers before allowing them into departures.

[ExXB]

Switzerland is to all intents and purposes a member of the Schengen (free circulation of criminals, illegal immigrants, trafficked people, Nigerian scammers) area, and of the European Economic Area, but remains outside the EU.

The airport has a French side and a Swiss side.
Almost correct. By popular vote the citizens of Switzerland declined to join the European Economic Area. Switzerland's relationship with the EU depends on numerous 'bilateral accords' but this does not include the automatic adoption of EU Regulations and Directives into Swiss law - everything must be approved by the Swiss Parliament first - and in many cases by a majority vote of the population and the 26 cantons.

Can't understand why more power isn't devolved to the people in Europe - the Swiss system works.

[davidjohnson6]

People - can we keep to the original subject, namely the separation of arriving and departing passengers at airports please ?

If you want a debate on the relationship between Swizterland the EU, JetBlast is the place for it

[Capetonian]

By popular vote the citizens of Switzerland declined to join the European Economic Area

I stand corrected ..... they are not EEA but ...... while Switzerland is not in the EEA, Swiss nationals have the same rights as EEA nationals.


can we keep to the original subject, namely the separation of arriving and departing passengers at airports please ?
The separation or not of inbound/outbound passengers is determined by the need to separate flows of people from different areas, and the above discussions are therefore relevant.

[Anansis]

Personally I don't think a countries EU/EEA membership is an issue here. Switzerland has signed and implemented the Shengen agreement. This is the only treaty which is relevant where the movement of people within Europe is concerned. Flights to and from other Shengen countries are treated as domestic trips for immigration purposes. AMS has seperate Shengen and non Shengen areas. You have to pass through immigration to get from one area to the other but arriving and departing passenges are still allowed to mix freely within them. Further afield, SIN also allows arriving/departing pax to mix freely without any problems.

As long as passengers have to pass through immigration to leave an airport or go through security to board another flight I can't think of any logical reason why they shouldn't be allowed to mix. Maybe the answer is as simple as crowd managment? Or maybe it's a security consideration (I would consider this to be illogical, but then lots of security considerations/procedures are...).

Did anyone transit through DUB pre 2008ish? Apparently they used to allow arriving and departing passengers mix freely but then they felt the need to spend a considerable amount of time and money seperating them. The answer to this question might lie in the reasons given for these works.

[peuce]

At Singapore Changi airport, arriving and departing passengers happily mingle.


It was a bit disconcerting the first time I saw it, but it works well ... especially considering that Changi is such a transit airport.

[ZFT]

Bangkok & KL the same

[Skipness One Echo]

Thanks for all that guys. I think the rule seems to be that airports with central search don't allow it, airports with gate search are happy to do so. This would prevent passengers boarding at "lax security" airfields gaining access to high profile airports and airlines without adequate security.

[jubilee]

My understanding of the agreement is EU countries signed up to it except the UK- Ireland and possibly some Scandinavian countries. Switzerland is not a member of the EU.
The agreement allows for free passage across borders within Europe,which is why passengers can mix at some airports,but not in the UK etc.

The whole thing is long winded to read, but just google it.
Jubilee

[ExXB]

Jubilee.

You are right about Schengen (except that it does apply in all three Scandinavian countries, Iceland, Switzerland and the rest of the EU except GB/IE)

However I don't think this explains the non-mixing of passengers. Take T5 at Heathrow as an example. A passenger in transit through T5 is separated from departing passengers until such time as s/he has cleared security. S/he is then free to mingle with other departing passengers and has not cleared UK immigration.

However I think a passenger arriving at T5 off a domestic flight doesn't get security screened again.

It would seem that the UK doesn't trust other countries security (even though some are more rigid). It doesn't want to take the risk of some black-hats beating the system - although IMHO it would be very easy to separate only flights from countries with poor security, if there are any.

[shogan1977]

Although not an EU Member State, Switzerland is a member of the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA) and as such applies all applicable EU Regulations pertaining to aviation - including aviation security. As with all EU/ECAA states these rules are a minimum standard and can be supplemented as determined necessary at national level by 'more stringent measures' that go above and beyond EU regs.

[shogan1977]

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/international/bilateral/ch2b_en.pdf

[eastern wiseguy]

Bangkok & KL the same

And on a BIGGER scale so does BHD:}

[BAAlltheway]

At Singapore Changi airport, arriving and departing passengers happily mingle.


The idea behind segregation of arrivals and departures is twofold. One of or both apply at all airports.
1) So that arriving passengers (potentially from airports with less stringent security) cannot hand prohibited items to departing passengers.
2)So Passengers cannot exchange documentation to let people enter/depart the country who shouldn't.

To tackle this, security can be done in a few ways- total segregation of the two flows through the whole journey. T5 does this with departing passengers passed through security early in the journey (but allows international and domestic departing to mix due to the photo process).
Many EU airports ie Madrid, Barcelona, and indeed outside EU, Singapore operate a different system. They do allow departures and arrivals to mix but security screening is done at the gate, so if an arriving passenger hands something to a departing passenger, it will be picked up at the gate.

There is an argument that it is a little egotistic for the UK to assume that all other countries security is worse than ours, which is why arrival passengers aren't "trusted" to not have illicit items (not just talking illegal, but lighters, knives etc). Recently there is a movement around the patch that says there are a number of EU countries whose security can be "trusted" and for whom therefore, such segregation would not be needed. It is being looked at for how to improve transfers by removing the need for transfer screening, but because space it limited in most airports, it would be hard to implement a Domestic and EU process and a separate "other" international process.

Watch this space i guess!!

[Rwy in Sight]

I think in BRU some parts of the airport airside are "mixed". My vote goes for the better crowd control issues.

Rwy in Sight

[ExXB]

but because space it limited in most airports, it would be hard to implement a Domestic and EU process and a separate "other" international process..

Maybe I'm a little naive but this would seem to be quite easy and everything is already in place. i.e.

Scenario 1 - Plane arriving from a non-secure country. Docks at the gate, passenger disembark, walk up the jetway and take the current path to security, or immigration etc.

Scenario 2 - Plane arriving from a 'secure' country. Docks at the gate, passengers disembark. Any local passengers take the current path to immigration etc. Transit passengers just walk up the jetway into the boarding area and into the secure area, head for duty free and the lounges. If somebody got lost and took the wrong path - nothing compromised.

Swiss actually do this at ZRH with domestic connections flights coming from GVA.

The only thing needed is a very large sign in the jetway.

[kenneth_md3]

Regarding Brussels Airport:

Brussels Airport has 1 terminal with 2 concourses A & B.

The A concourse is reserved for schengen-flights only => no immigration.
There is a central security screening before the shops at the end of the tunnel which leads from the terminal under the taxiway to the concourse.
Passengers departing and arriving from this concourse mix, there is only one level (gate area).

The B concourse is reserved for non-schengen flights only => immigration.
There is a central security screening after the shops at the beginning of the concourse and one in the middle of the concourse for transit passengers.
Passengers arriving from a flight are separated from departing passengers as they arrive on different levels. Arriving passengers in this concourse always have to pass a security screening before they are allowed in the departing area. They have however access to the shops as these are before security screening and these shops are located in the international transfer area (before clearing immigration).

In addition there are also T-gates used for Africa flights of brussels airlines . They are located at the end of the A-concourse with an exit immigration check. As the A-concourse doesn't has a separate level for arriving passengers this part of the concourse is only used for departing passengers and arriving passengers are transferred to the B concourse were they can clear immigration.

So to me the separation of arriving and departing passengers is used to have a uniform security screening as all the members of the schengen area (probably also the EU countries) have agreed on the same security screening standards making a additional screening unnecessary for these passengers.

In the USA this apply also. If you once passed a TSA security screening you won't have additional security screening, arriving passengers mix with departing passengers. Flights that has a non TSA security screening ( out USA) will separate arriving passengers and will rescreen passengers that have a connecting flight.

Apparently in AMS arriving passengers mix with departing passengers as the security screening is at the gate. So their is no need to separate them.

From the LH website about overhauling pier B : "the implementation of an EU regulation which stipulates that inbound passengers from countries outside the European Union must be separated from outbound passengers."

Lufthansa - Lufthansa at Frankfurt Airport (http://www.lufthansa.com/be/en/Lufthansa-at-Frankfurt-airport?blt_p=BE&blt_l=en&blt_t=Info_and_Services%3EAt_the_Airport%3ELounges&blt_e=Content&blt_n=An%20overview%20of%20our%20hubs&blt_z=Frankfurt&blt_c=BE%7Cen%7CInfo_and_Services%3EAt_the_Airport%3ELounges %7CContent%7CAn%20overview%20of%20our%20hubs%7CFrankfurt)

This seems to me that the EU wants to free passengers from EU inbound flight not to have an additional screening for connection flight.
Unless there is a mistake in that LH statement:

[MathFox]

Actually Amsterdam has two areas: the non-Schengen area where security checks are at the gates and a Schengen area where there is a security check on entry, either form departures or after passing immigration from the non-Schengen area. Arriving passengers are (generally) not checked.

[Globaliser]

However I don't think this explains the non-mixing of passengers. Take T5 at Heathrow as an example. A passenger in transit through T5 is separated from departing passengers until such time as s/he has cleared security. S/he is then free to mingle with other departing passengers and has not cleared UK immigration.

However I think a passenger arriving at T5 off a domestic flight doesn't get security screened again.

It would seem that the UK doesn't trust other countries security (even though some are more rigid). It doesn't want to take the risk of some black-hats beating the system - although IMHO it would be very easy to separate only flights from countries with poor security, if there are any.Maybe I'm a little naive but this would seem to be quite easy and everything is already in place. i.e.

Scenario 1 - Plane arriving from a non-secure country. Docks at the gate, passenger disembark, walk up the jetway and take the current path to security, or immigration etc.

Scenario 2 - Plane arriving from a 'secure' country. Docks at the gate, passengers disembark. Any local passengers take the current path to immigration etc. Transit passengers just walk up the jetway into the boarding area and into the secure area, head for duty free and the lounges. If somebody got lost and took the wrong path - nothing compromised.The difficulty is that your terminal buildings have to be designed to provide the relevant paths.

You scenario 2 is similar to what T5 has for domestic arrivals, except that arriving passengers don't need to be cleared through immigration. So that amounts to a scenario 3.

Taking T5 as an example, there's a very limited number of gates that can offer transit passengers the facility to walk straight into the secure airside departures stream without having to be security screened. If your scenario 2 were to be introduced, there'd have to be substantial rebuilding at T5 to create a much larger number of gates that have that facility for transit passengers - but they would still have to be segregated from the scenario 3 gates, because scenario 2 arriving passengers need to go to immigration. And both scenarios would have to be segregated from scenario 1 passengers. I am not an architect, but I imagine this is the sort of thing that would give them nightmares. For example, how could you build proper segregation between scenario 1 and scenario 2 at T5B and T5C?

[Globaliser]

In some airports domestic and international flights use the same terminal and gates. If they were not separated you could have an arriving international passenger bring in contraband (lots of money, drugs, jewelery) and hand it to a departing domestic passenger accomplice. That way the contraband would not go through customs and end up in the country without passing through customs.I expect that UK Customs will have been consulted in relation to all the UK terminals where departing domestic and international passengers are not segregated from each other, including at both LHR and LGW. There's nothing to stop this happening every day at those airports, but Customs are obviously OK with it.

[Rush2112]

Changi works well on a number of levels - for a start there are no domestic arrivals / departures - but also they have screening at every gate before you go through to the holding lounge, and the customs and immigration staff are actually well trained, reasonably well paid (by local standards) and practice profiling. They know the type of miscreant they are looking for, and rarely stop travellers for no apparent reason (like some UK airports seem to do).

That's "all" it takes.

[ExXB]

The difficulty is that your terminal buildings have to be designed to provide the relevant paths.

You scenario 2 is similar to what T5 has for domestic arrivals, except that arriving passengers don't need to be cleared through immigration. So that amounts to a scenario 3.

Er, no. I don't think any redesign is needed to allow arriving passengers to walk up the existing jetway into the terminal - the opposite of what departing passengers do from the gate. You perhaps might need 1 staff person to stand at the junction of the two paths (one to immigration, the other into the terminal) to herd passengers in the right direction, but the reduction in numbers that need not be security screened would offset this 10 times over. And as mentioned if the passenger goes the wrong way, that does not cause any security issues, and can be easily undone.

[candoo]

I'm pretty sure every time I travel through Dusseldorf there is mixing, you could even have a beer in the departure lounge!

[Adamm.]

Only some parts of DUB are mixed.. Arriving passengers into pier A are mixed with departing passengers. Arriving passengers can stop in the newsagents or have a few beers before going to immigration. (Pier A is however cut off from the rest of the airport due to an annoying one way system and only certain airlines use that pier).

At Pier B & C we seal the doors leading up to the departures area when de-boarding and seal the doors to immigration when passengers are boarding thus keeping them apart. Transferring passengers have to go through immigration and walk to the end of the baggage hall to reach the flight connections area and security again, etc...

However with Pier E in T2, transatlantic passengers will go through the pre-clearance and then be kept in a holding lounge till boarding begins when they will seal off the gate area, limiting the gate area to them passengers only. So 100% separation from other departing passengers and all arriving passengers.

[Skipness One Echo]

Glasgow has an oddball situation where there's a security person at the entrance to the domestic pier after central search checking boarding cards before allowing access, even though the only people in the lounge are those who arrived through BAA Security at Glasgow. It means if you want to avail yourself of any of the shops on arrival from another UK airport, you can't. Given that landside shopping is non existent it's not ideal.

BAA passing up retail opportunities? Some mistake surely. Oddly enough the same situation is absent at BAA Edinburgh and I have never worked out why one is open plan and the other is retricted.

[Rush2112]

OMG, does the Human Rights Commission know about this?

Welcome to Singapore.

Actually, I'm quite happy with it, probably close to 100 flights in and out of Changi in the last 7 years, never once been stopped. The odd bottle of wine over my allowance is all they'd find, and really they can't be bothered about that.

[ZFT]

That's odd - 6 trips there this year and every trip customs have put my bags through their scanners.

[Anansis]

That's odd - 6 trips there this year and every trip customs have put my bags through their scanners

The only time Singapore customs haven't scanned my bags was the only time I wasn't over my duty free allowance! The guys at Changi seem to have a sixth sense about these things :}

[Sultan Ismail]

ZFT, think about it mate, it's your profile :)

[Rush2112]

ZFT - is customs or still within arrivals? Some flights, e.g., those arriving from Jakarta, Denpasar or Bangkok are routinely disembarked at a gate where they can funnel the passengers through a bag screening check. This does I admit get my blood pressure up...

Otherwise, if it's customs, I can only conclude you look a shady character, sorry. :p

What's the betting I get stopped on my way back from Jakarta next month?!

[ZFT]

Both. I get that 'special' cabin baggage gate check upon arriving but also a customs screening upon exiting the customs hall.

Odd, but these days I seems to sail through just about everywhere else so I doubt I look (too) shady!

[Vld1977]

The reason many european airports allow arriving and departing passengers to mix freely is the Schengen agreement. This agreement has nothing to do with belonging to the EU or not. For example, Switzerland is a Schengen country, and the UK isn´t.

Flights arriving to a Schengen country from another Schengen country are considered domestic fligths, and you don´t have to go through immigration. If you are coming from a Schengen airport, then you have gone through security in another airport with mandatory european standards of security, so going through another control when on transit is redundant.

Take for example Barcelona. It has been said in this thread that BCN has gate security, which is not true. If you land from a Schengen country and you are staying in BCN or transferring onto another Schengen or domestic flight, you just arrive direct to the Schengen area, were you mix freely with departing passengers. If you arrive from a non-Schengen country, then you will have to go through immigration and another security control, always. If you arrive from a Schengen flight and transfer onto a non-Schengen flight, you will have to go first through security and then through the immigration control at the entrance of the non-Schengen area. The division is still domestic and international, but Schengen flights are considered domestic.

The Schengen agreement means, basically, that you can drive ir take a train from Portugal to Holland, through Spain and France, without going through any border control, and it´s the same in air travel.

In the UK we don´t see this, because it´s not in the Schengen agreement, and as such, everybody coming from abroad has to go through security (not immigration, as docs are checked at the gate by airline staff). The reason why domestic passengers are kept separated from international passengers, or why, if they mix like in LHR T5 they have to get their pictures taken is because there is no legal requirement to carry ID on you in the UK. In the rest of europe, you are required to produce a valid ID even when travelling internally, which you don´t have to do in the UK.

[bhxslf]

I'm afraid DUS has recently changed for the worse if you arrive from the UK on LH. You go through passport control to get dumped landside and have to reclear security.

What was a five minute transfer has become a 20 minute transfer.

[raffele]

In the UK we don´t see this, because it´s not in the Schengen agreement, and as such, everybody coming from abroad has to go through security (not immigration, as docs are checked at the gate by airline staff).

I don't think this is completely accurate - from past experience, and by having a look at the flight connections pages on the Heathrow website as an example, unless you come into the UK internationally and transfer to an international flight, you do have to pass through immigration.

[Globaliser]

Er, no. I don't think any redesign is needed to allow arriving passengers to walk up the existing jetway into the terminal - the opposite of what departing passengers do from the gate. You perhaps might need 1 staff person to stand at the junction of the two paths (one to immigration, the other into the terminal) to herd passengers in the right direction, but the reduction in numbers that need not be security screened would offset this 10 times over.Er, no. Or not at T5, which is the example that you were giving. IIRC, an arriving passenger can't go into the airside departures area without a conformance check for a valid onward boarding pass - and this is pretty much hardwired into the T5 systems as part of BA's procedures. So your solution for scenario 3 would involve having a conformance check at the top of the jetway of every gate that could be used for this. And it would create a wonderful anomaly between international "secure" -> international connections, and international "secure" -> domestic connections: the former would go straight into the terminal, while the latter would have to clear immigration and security before going to sit alongside their erstwhile seatmate whilst they both wait for their next flight.

[Vld1977]

Raff.ele,

Yes, sorry, I didn´t explain myself properly. When I said "coming from abroad" I meant into the UK, so if you are transferring into a domestic flight (landing in the UK, although not at LHR), you will ahve to go through immigration control.

[Just a spotter]

At Dublin, arriving and departing passengers mix around the area of the 100 gates (formerly A pier) with signs directing arriving passengers through passport control and onto baggage reclaim. At all the other gates arriving and departing pax are segregated.

On the Schengen point, Ireland didn't sign up simply because the UK didn't. The thinking being that having to create a physical border on the island (between Ireland and Northern Ireland) was a) not acceptable and b) more bother than requiring citizens to carry a passport when travelling in the rest of the EU. It would also have removed the already existing free travel area between Ireland and the UK.

(with apologies to Adamm.'s earlier post which, now that I read it, already describes the situation at DUB :uhoh: )

JAS