Flybe Terms and Conditions

[largegeorgejones]

So we all know that Flybe's pay, number of days off, general terms and conditions etc are pretty poor compared with UK industry standards. We also know they are a fun company to work for.

I was just wondering firstly, if the upturn happens, are you planning to leave and secondly, why would you leave? Is it to fly something bigger or is it to earn more money and have a better lifestyle? Oh and finally does this new order for 175s make you think twice about leaving?

[G SXTY]

I'm not a fan of the Dash, but aircraft type is way down my list of priorities.

For me it's a balance of pay and lifestyle, and neither are brilliant at Flybe. Pay has been done to death on here, and I would be amazed if management ever attempted to offer a package that compared with the big boys. The noises coming from BALPA on the current pay negotiations are not at all promising, and I suspect that whatever their expansion plans, management's attitude to pay and pilots is still very much 'small airline / training airline.' I would love to be proved wrong, however.

Pay would be less of an issue if it was compensated by a fantastic lifestyle, but unfortunately it isn't. For example, I'm currently on 2 days off. I got home from work at 23:00 on Friday night, and will leave the house again at 04:30 Monday morning, so my 2 days actually equates to one full evening at home. Repeat ad nauseum. Until recently we had quite a few short 2 sector days to sweeten the pill, but my base now seems to have joined SOU, BHX & MAN in getting some seriously long (10hr+) 4 and 5 sector duties. (And before the Airbus drivers jump in and tell us we don't know we're born, try a few of those in a cramped, noisy, challenging turboprop that's liable to bite you if you take your eye off it for 30 seconds). Increasingly I'm zombified by the end of the week. Again, I'm not optimistic about an improvement; lates to earlies was an issue when I joined the company, and still is. There appears to be unlimited capacity for prevarication and stalling, and it would take a major exodus to get their attention, by which time it would be too late.

Set against the above issues, the chance to fly an E-jet, while mildly exciting, wouldn't be enough to keep me (or, I suspect, many of my colleagues). It's really very simple – if the company fails to offer a competitive remuneration and lifestyle package, then once the opportunities start to appear, people will vote with their feet. T'was ever so.

[portsharbourflyer]

G-Sxty,

I hate to make bitter and negative comments, but if your first type had been a non automated Shorts 360, HS748 or L188, then you could talk about challenging turbo-props; as I have never flown a dash then I can't really comment, but in comparison an EFIS equipped Dash 8-Q400 wouldn't be regarded as one of the more challenging types out there.

[G SXTY]

Two replies and we're off at a tangent already – the miracles of Pprune.

I base my view on having flown it day-in, day-out for the last couple of years, as well as the vast experience of colleagues who have flown everything from DC3s, DC6s (and yes, even L188s) through to fast jets, DC-10s and 747s. Almost without exception, the Q400 is regarded as an aircraft at the trickier end of the scale.

It's a 29t MTOW turboprop with 10,000hp, giving it close on jet levels of performance – at least at low level – but with none of the refinements. It also has an extensive list of gotchas. But then again, as you said:

as I have never flown a dash then I can't really comment

Back to the thread then.

[SEAMASTER]

So then Mr SXTY is being an airline pilot still as exciting and worth all the hasle you went through to get here, or is it just a job now like many others that helps to pay the bills and mortgage, sounds to me your honeymoon period is over !! If only all the wannabees could project ahead 2-3 years and realize what this industry is actually like, it may, i feel curtail many people from throwing lots of money at these false promise training organizations !! Thoughts please !! I know you will your an addict !! ;)

[Serenity]

Agree with G-SXTY completely.

Flybe pay is substantially less than all other major carriers.
Perks, food, staff travel, duty pay etc are minimal.
It cannot be said that lifestyle is great, as stated above finishing at 2200 on Friday and starting at 0430 on monday is not adequate for rest (Easy 5/4 anyone??)
Therefore I suggest that unless things improve drastically there will be a mass exodus to greener pastures!!

Shiny 170's will not stem the flow, if the condition gap was big for flying turbo props, then jet to jet the gap is bigger (no more the "it's only a prop" excuse)
Also there are many ex airbus and Boeing pilots on the dash, and they all say it is trickier to fly, more got yers and a more tiring days work than the big jets!!

Flybe, it's your call !!!

[assymetricdrift]

I agree with everything that has been said so far...

I love flying the Dash (yes, I know!), and I think FlyBE are a good company with great people working for them...

But, the pay and lifestyle are the two biggest issues for me. And both of these are badly affecting my standard of life right now. The pay here is pretty minimal - and at the end of a good month of pay, I'm lucky if I can even save £50. Not only that, but the pay offer from the company was really nothing short of derisery - I wouldn't have minded too much if the company had said "No payrise this year", but to offer us a 0.3% payrise on top of annual increments is just disgusting. The 2% payrise would have been somewhere in the region of an extra £10 a month after tax, which was unexpected - but 0.3% is not worth bothering with at all.

With regards to lifestyle, I have been working a lot recently - many 6 day weeks and have only had 2 days off in between them, and straight into another 6 day week. The missus AD complains that when she sees me, I'm tired, grumpy, fed up, and has been threatening to leave me. I cannot continue with this incessant level of work at the moment. Then the issue of days off - I cannot believe that the company are playing such hardball with us on this. How can crew food be used as a bargaining chip against having extra days off?

In short, I'm actively searching for new jobs. I hear that a Q400 operator in Europe pays it's pilots nearly twice as much, and gives a better lifestyle, and whereas I've had a great time flying with FlyBE, it's high time the company accepted that if they want us to hang around, then they cannot continue to treat us like this.

[CRX]

Interesting reading this.
I come from a slightly different perspective in that I am generally happy with my job (DH8D LHS) but agree with most of the posters here, albeit no quite so negative.
My background was as a training captain with a small turboprop airline and single pilot /multi pilot with a well known Midlands based freight operator.
The previous jobs gave me more money, particularly the last one and I took a substantial hit when I joined Flybe; in the order of £800 -£1000 per month take home. However, despite the lates to earlies issue, I do get more time at home than previously. A new baby was one of the reasons I left my previous employer and time at home was premium. The trade off of cash versus time was one that needed to be made. I had to rationalise my spending and lower my overheads to live within my new means, and I have done that.
For me it was the right choice, my former employer went under around one year after I left leaving many capable and competant pilots out of work with a pretty limited type rating. Some have lucked in and got jobs (albeit in far flung places) others are still looking. The pay cut I took was much preferable to life on the dole with an uncertain future...
However, now that the summer is here we are working hard, and certainly not being paid enough for our efforts. Five consecutive doubles (three earlies in that) , two days off then straight back into it does hit hard, and I am knackered this week.
The Dash can be tricky and does require a constant eye to prevent a trip to Exeter for Big Mac and cheese, so far avoided. But despite this I do enjoy flying it (and I do come from the DC6).
The E-Jet story was mildly exciting just from the point of view of the health of the company. Being in the bottom levels of seniority I have a vested interest in that! However, I agree with the feeling that foreign bases will see most of them and I have no wish to move.
To sum up I hope for more pay, and our loyalty to be properly rewarded. Lates to earlies would be nice if sorted out but I can live with it.
I am not amongst those who are actively looking for other employment, my desire to live where I live limits that to Flybe.

CRX.


BTW Crew food? My chickens love it! Particularly the 'Crudites'...

[Megaton]

Another FlyBE exodus? Quelle surprise! It was great to get a job but the lifestyle described above is miserable after a while and the pay in way compensates for the unremitting grind. Quite enjoyed flying the Dash but 6 sector days soon robbed me of any pleasure. Even getting home every night didn't really help because I was too knackered to do anything. Now flying the Airbus so more money, better lifestyle, less fatigue.

[SEAMASTER]

IMHO having worked for flybe for 12 months after the merger with BA Connect, things will not change in that airline, they are happy for it to be a constant training organization with fresh new eyes wide open first officers. As for the company council well, they never had that much luck in negotiating a good deal when I was there, it was more like they were told what was happening by the management and they basically accepted it. On a positive note Flybe offers 1. A good starter airline for new guys entering the industry, 2. A good airline for people who live around regional airports who enjoy living and working there, 3.A good airline for experienced guys and girls who have been there a long time and don't want to loose there seniority, 4. A good airline for peolpe who have done enough flying for larger companys such as TC, MON, Emirates. 4. An airline with good training standards and excellent trainers. So if you dont like it and your unhappy with your lot, just leave because it won't change to suit the pilots wishes. Finally be very nice in your exit interview and answer the questions with what they want to hear and not what you really think because you never know, one day you may go back there looking for work !!!

[pipistrelle]

Unfortunately I have to agree with all the negative comments previously posted,I could live on the salary but the lates to earlies issue is a killer for me, there is no real quality of life with this system. I wonder what will happen when an incident occurs which is directly attributed to fatigue or will there be a notac to cover this? With such minimal free time it is more than just a bit annoying when delays generated by the company eat into our limited free time (a/c swaps, holding for connecting flts etc.) Let's not mention "metered events" which basically mean that pilots can't even plan a life OUTSIDE the roster!!
Sadly the management seem blind to what can only be described as very poor morale across the fleet - or don't seem to care! I'm sure there will be a mass exodus as the market recovers and this can't be good as the experience level across the fleet will in all probability drop. A similar situation arose, I believe about 5yrs ago.
I have flown quite a few a/c and I can say that in my experience the Q400 is one of the more difficult turbo props to fly well.
All told it would only take a minor adjustment to the stance the management have adopted to make it a much better place to be which can only be seen as cost effective in the returns of "good will" which would certainly be manifested in financial terms.

[Megaton]

Sadly the management seem blind to what can only be described as very poor morale across the fleet - or don't seem to care! I'm sure there will be a mass exodus as the market recovers and this can't be good as the experience level across the fleet will in all probability drop. A similar situation arose, I believe about 5yrs ago.

I was part of that exodus about 5 years ago. Of the dozen or so on our Dash type-rating course I believe there's only one pilot still in the company.

[Calmcavok]

Also concur with all of the above. Goodwill certainly seems to be running out at Flybe, and considering that the airline is run with a healthy dose of goodwill from crew, this is significant. It is also an unfortunate situation - Flybe have done very well of late, winning a clutch of awards and staying in profit throughout the downturn. However, apart from the odd notice of thanks from Jim, absolutely nothing else has been offered to the employess.

It is no secret that it is the intention of the management to float the company as soon as conditions are right. Admirable intentions, however an underpaid and malcontent workforce will not be happy if they are used as a cost-saving measure in order to pep up the company's books.

[Megaton]

Seem to remember getting a £10 M & S voucher when I was with FlyBE - whoopy doo! Some incentive/thank you!

[JW411]

Thank you notes from Jim are even better.

As one of my old F/Es used to say "For God's sake don't give us any more money just send us thank-you notes. They impress the hell out of my bank manager".

He was a bit of a cynic I would have to say!

[G SXTY]

'Course I'm an addict – I'm building an Airfix Sea Harrier on my days off – how sad is that? (I suppose it could be worse – it could be a model Dash). I love flying, it's under my skin, and not a day goes by when I don't appreciate how lucky I am to paid to do something I enjoy. If I have one regret it's that I didn't change careers years ago. I also appreciate that Flybe is one of very few airlines that will take on 30-something wet ink CPLs (like me) and not shaft them with type rating costs or pay-to-fly schemes.

However, as is often said, gratitude and appreciation don't pay the mortgage or put fuel in the car. I went into this job with my eyes wide open, and Flybe's reputation as a training airline with a high turnover of FOs isn't exactly breaking news (in fairness, it's one of the reasons I got a job). It's their train set, and if that's how they want to operate it, fair enough, I'm under no illusions about where I stand. What does grate, however, is the constant stream of missives from Exeter, praising us for helping to keep the company in profit through the recession and keeping our passengers flying through snowdrifts, volcanic eruptions and plagues of frogs, and telling us how important we all our, while at the same time there is an extreme reluctance to engage on pay and rostering, the two issues that everyone – and I mean everyone – cite as their main reasons for looking elsewhere. Personally I find that rather patronising. What's worse is to find out from the union (not management) that our 2% pay offer now suddenly includes our contractual increments, resulting in a negligible real terms pay rise. That I find insulting.

I've been around the block a couple of times, and disconnect between management words and actions isn't exactly unique to Flybe. I'm also aware that company cultures are generally set in stone, and as they have a very successful business model, I can't see anything changing unless people are leaving faster than they can replace them. And with an endless supply of 200hr wannabes (like I was) that's never going to happen.

Standing back from it all (and noting that the E175 numbers suggest a doubling of fleet size) it will be fascinating to see how the company manages a rapid transition from 'Europe's biggest little airline' to serious player, and whether a "so what?" attitude to pilot turnover is compatible with that transition. If Joe average joins with 200hrs, flies 600hrs per year and has had enough and jumps ship after 3 years, that suggests a typical RHS experience level of around 1100-1500hrs. The bean counters would probably be happier with that figure than flight ops . . .

[Coffin Corner]

Makes things go nice and quick when you can do 240kts (or whatever that below 8000' barber pole was) to 5 miles or drop it in over a mountain from 10,000 feet with 10 miles to run. Not to mention avoiding a lengthy departure procedure by climbing at 5000'/min to get over that mountain on the way out.

You could slow a Q400 down from 240kts at 5 miles on the ILS? And climb at 5,000fpm? Are you sure you've actually flown the Q400?

[G SXTY]

you can do 240kts (or whatever that below 8000' barber pole was) to 5 miles

avoiding a lengthy departure procedure by climbing at 5000'/min to get over that mountain on the way out

Hot diggity! I've gotta get me one of them big 'ole stetsons.

Thank The Lord for FDM. :D

[SEAMASTER]

Mr SXTY thanks for your opinion on things and may I say in a mature, say it as it is kind of way. It is refreshing to see you are not defending your patch just because you lie in it ! It seems to me that you are more than on the ball with life in and around Flybe, however the points you make were visable problems when i flew for them, rostering, pay, lifestyle and that doggy bag crew food. These were all the same problems that had been in place previous to my employment at Flybe, see the trend developing ? Mr french ran it then and still does today, it is'nt going to change. Don't get me wrong life is'nt perfect in the airline I work for 90-100 hour months, lots of disruption and changes to your working month but somehow I am a lot happier now than back then. It very much seems to me that you are ready for a change in direction and I am sure if that is what you desire, that is what you will achieve. All the best my friend I wish you well !!

[Serenity]

It looks like it will be a very up hill battle to bring in any improvements at Flybe given the current management. They have said "you can have any changes and improvements you like, as long as it doesn't cost the company a penny"
So much for a pay rise!!!
Me thinks with all the fuel saving, pension cost cutting, free f/o's and no pay rises, they are only interested in making the books look good for a company sale.
The big question is who would want in???
Last rumour I heard was it could be for sale by October.


A couple of guys already off to the sandpit, believe more awaiting final decisions.
Could be a lot more if Easy said that a q400 qualifies for DEP to fill their short comings!!:}

[dah dahdit dah]

What is the AVG take home for an F/O and Capt with flybe?

Before you say it, I tried a search and must be doing something wrong as just a **** load of moaning came up:ok::O

[Serenity]

All salaries are available on the Flybe website.

Don't forget to add on the duty pay, £1.90 per hour!!!!!!!!!!

[dah dahdit dah]

so thats about an extra 1600ish before tax ontop of the publiushed salaries then?

cheers for the reply

[Desk-pilot]

G-SXTY and all the others - I couldn't have said it better myself. To be honest if they kept the lates to earlies but made the roster 5/3 fixed and added £10 000 to everyone's pay after 3 years and brought in loads of E-Jets with decent hot crew food I would stay forever as I suspect many others would.

We'd then be just below the industry average terms and conditions.

At my base I currently only know of one F/O who plans to stay, I know several Captains who already have apps in progress.

Re: salary expect to take home £1600/month F/O year 1, by year 3 that will be approx £1950. For Captains I gather year 1 equates to around £3200 take-home.

Desk-pilot

[JB007]

G SXTY, Desk-Pilot and others...

Do not be fooled it's any better anywhere else...bigger machines and bigger airlines means bigger politics and just bigger issues...management attitudes remain the same!

The best job is whatever suits your personal circumstances, you can keep chasing and making life's sacrifices for this career, but very little changes, same problems - different coloured aircraft!

And on that cheery note...

Cheers
JB

[Time Traveller]

Thats as maybe JB, but that take home pay is astonishingly low! :eek:

[JB007]

Indeed it is Time Traveller! I remember earning as little as that when I was operating a turbo-prop - it was the best fun i've had yet!

[Resurgam]

That pay might just about be an acceptable trade off if the lifestyle was great - but in flybe it isn't. The specific issues such as finishing on lates and starting on earlies, and the 108 day off fixation have already been mentioned by previous posters, and I agree with then completely.

Royston Vasey sums it up well: "So, in years to come when the family have grown up so fast you're wondering where the time went; and you're kids are overheard saying that Dad / Mum were 'always at work' you need to ask yourself....
Were all those six-on two-off, start on earlies and finish on lates really worth it."

I have been trying to get out for two years or so, but in the meantime flybe have severly limited my ability to support my children through crucial years - and I will never forgive them for that.

[assymetricdrift]

the "doggy bag" crewfood that we get on the aircraft is pretty poor. The sandwich choice is mediocre, at best, and the salads are more likely to spark off mass botulism than provide adequate nourishment... If the crew food was to be a little bit more balanced, it would be acceptable, but can you honestly name one person who wants to go for a "salmon and cucumber" sandwich that is slightly mouldy, with soggy bread?

And the Crudites... don't even get me started on them! The only thing they're good for is for throwing at the other guy when he passes wind.

However, as much as we may moan about crewfood, there are some redeeming things to it - and at least we still get it. But it could be a lot better, granted.

Paywise - in my first base, for the first year and a half, I couldn't make ends meet. I lived on my credit card, and was getting scuppered by the interest on it. However, as my payscale went up, I've been able to pay back a large percentage of that debt now, and am finally starting to see the end of the tunnel. But as for saving up any money at all, it remains a long way off - any that is saved come the end of the month goes on petrol, or fuel bills or car maintainance or just having 1 day out with the Mrs.

If FlyBE were to up the pay - eg - after 3 years service to the company, it was to be raised £10k, then I would be a lot happier than I am right now. As it is though, they don't, and I will continue to struggle with the pay, and the lates to earlies issue.

[PAPI-74]

I think that some of you need to check your ops manual. If you are finishing past 23:00 you have not had a legal day off.
You need 2 local nights and 34hrs (please check, these are off the top of my head) for a day off. You cannot go from that late at night to 04:30 in 2 days time.
Say NO!!!!

[Knee Trembler]

At the end of 2008, when I was made redundant from my last job, I had the (enviable) choice between Flybe and my current employer. Both fly Q400 / Emd 195 and both pay about the same. The difference is that my company has one of the best pilots' agreements I have experienced. The highlights include:

- 120 days off a year;
- guaranteed 30 off in 90;
- maximum 5 days on;
- overtime above 140 duty hrs per month (35 hrs pw) at ca. 35 € per duty hr;
- roster changes inside 3 days voluntary and paid at 100 € per change.

Now, for that we are away an awful lot (15 nights this month) but the hotels are first class and breakfast is included (rapidly becoming a luxury) and free WLAN is generally included (a requirement for the EFB).

All that doesn't happen by itself and we are continually being told that we are too expensive and inflexible - my god, the company even pays the type rating! Until last year, the pay was really derisory (basically Eastern Airways level), but after a lot of sabre rattling, two half day strikes sealed the deal at 16.8%, which in the middle of the financial crisis was a pretty good result.

The moral of the story, until you get yourselves together and down tools nothing is likely to improve. I suggest all of you writing here take a look at yourselves and ask what you are doing about it. Are you at least in BALPA? It always amazes me how many people complain and then admit to not even being in a union.

At some point in the future I would like to come back to the UK and Flybe would be one of my preferred employers, but until some of the issues mentioned here are addressed I would find it very hard to sign on the dotted line.

KT

[bigjarv]

Who is it you work for?

[FL370 Officeboy]

I think that some of you need to check your ops manual. If you are finishing past 23:00 you have not had a legal day off.
You need 2 local nights and 34hrs (please check, these are off the top of my head) for a day off. You cannot go from that late at night to 04:30 in 2 days time.
Say NO!!!!

Do you really think everyone is that stupid and would to along with something so blatantly illegal?

You quote figures which are correct, but you have misinterpreted the situation.

The lates to earlies issue surrounds TWO days off. So, you could be rostered to finish at 2200 on Monday and then start again at 0600 on Thursday i.e. the scheduling agreement minimum of 56 hours at the planning stage (34 is only for a single day). This is worsened though as the SA allows crewing to reduce this to the CAP371 minimum of 54 hours...meaning one could finish at 2359 on the Monday - and still be legal to come in at 0600 on the Thursday!!!!!

[judge11]

Why are your 'managers' so intransigent when it comes to this early/late issue? On rostering software it can be resolved with the click of a mouse. Or are they using the issue to gain leverage from you on some other matter? Having read the preceding posts it doesn't look as if you have too much to give away, in any case.

I would agree with Knee Trembler; you need to get yourselves organised and not succumb to the 'glad I've got a job' mentality that the management encourages and thrives upon. There have been several very successful 'walk-outs' by pilots during this recession; just look at your german colleagues. If a flotation is in the offing, then French has far more to lose than you.

[Iver]

Sounds like Baboo - they also operate Q400s and E190/195s.

[Piece of Cake]

Augsburg Airways (Lufthansa regional) also operate Q400s and Embraers....

[Fullback]

I am from the group near the top of the seniority list.

I have seen the airline grow from a Shed/Fokker operation into an airline now flying some of the most advanced equipment going.

We have become a major player in Europe and have now got world-wide recognition, our success and growth has been phenomenal.

I think our growth and sucess has taken everyone by surprise, not least management who now manage a pilot workforce of over 700 pilots... and many more to come.

BALPA recognition is still in its infancy compared to most other airlines, it will take a while for a mutual respect to grow. These are tough times for any airline at the moment but our model and business is succeeding, I hope that after guaranteeing survival of the business Exeter looks at its people and works to improve our conditions and working patterns.

I have progressed very quickly with the airline, it offers quick commands and opportunities to train far quicker than elsewhere.

At the end of the day getting home every night (ok 99% of the time) and living 10 minutes away from work (and London prices) is worth an extra 10 grand to me.

The future looks bright too, name another UK airline that has just put in a potential £5 billion order for new aircraft to 2017......

But that is just me, if it doesn't do it for you then go look elsewhere ;)

[Calmcavok]

Guys in at the beginning are on the jets and Seat-Blocking everyone elses ambition.
Life is good for them as they're protected by high salary and raging seniority.
Maybe they've had no ambition or are unhireable in the wider environment - you decide.

Do you work for Flybe?!?

[Knee Trembler]

@Royston Vasey.

A rather arrogant and ignorant post, if I may say so.

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued to understand your logic. What are the 'seat blockers' supposed to do exactly, make themselves unemployed so that someone else can have a go?

As to your comment regarding ambition. Not everyone sees their future in long haul or the middle east. And for those who want to stay in the UK, there's no real alternative at the moment. Where exactly should their ambition take them?

KT

[Fullback]

RV...

An unbelievably arrogant post....

'Maybe they've had no ambition or are unhireable in the wider environment - you decide'.

Working with the likes of you would put me off in the first place.

Don't speak for the masses when you clearly are not one of them.

[keepongoing]

I like many of you can only too clearly recollect the joy at having been offered my first flying job with Flybe, and I have to say that that joy has stayed (apart from the odd hiccup!) with me throughout my time with them. No they don't pay the best (but who else has been offered a pay rise this year), no they don't have the best T & C's (they are trying to improve these in a very difficult financial period) but in a fairly short time I have flown both types, gained my command and had fantastic fun with a tremendous group of people...I don't believe I could have done that with any other airline in the UK. Now its time to move on, but not with any bad feeling towards what I consider to be as well managed, ambitious and employee orientated airline in not just the UK, but the World. I fully anticipate the deluge of clever, witty put downs to this view which will no doubt follow....but try and recollect your own joy at the initial offer of a job with Flybe and consider if you have achieved what you expected to....I think most of you will have. The grass is always greener (except in some parts of the World!) etc., and if you can't settle for that then move on and find out for yourself!

[Tinytim]

It never ceases to amaze me what a dumb lot pilots are for a supposedly intelligent bunch of people.

When those of us who were in BA (Dis!)Connect saw Jim French marching over the horizon with his scarce concealed contempt for pilots and indeed Balpa and any form of collective negotiation mechanism those of us who could...got the hell out. It seems were were right...
I have never looked back and in a perverse way I guess I am grateful to the bearded one for needling me out of my comfort zone. The same is true of all my former colleagues who ran as far and fast as they could and in most cases
are infinitely better off than had we stayed at Flybe.

It is quite obvious from the posters in this forum that nothing has changed
and that the efficient Flybe mechanism is extracting the very last ounce of flesh from its pathetically compliant workforce and giving bare minimum in return.
The answer is very simple .......as indeed it always has been. Support your company council, elect articulate representatives and understand that collectively through a strongly supported council within Balpa you can make a bad airline (to work for ) a good one.
Otherwise nothing will change.

[DrumMachine]

People's views on working for Flybe appear very polarised depending on their personal circumstances. I left the RAF just before the downturn and had the hours and relevant experience to apply for almost any airline; I chose Flybe as the location, work patterns and type of flying suited me. I have not been disappointed and hope to be here for 25 more years. The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow; however, our BALPA CC seem unwilling to enter into meaningful and realistic negotiations and are hampering any improvements. Think I might just give myself a pay rise and cancel my membership!:ok:

[Tinytim]

Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........

You dont think much of Balpa........ who can only be as effective as your pretty ineffective company council so you just bottle out and award yourself a paltry pay rise of one percent by cancelling your subscription.

Would not the more intelligent option be to actualy get involved, put yourself forward for election and kick out the wets who seemed to have achieved nothing apart from acceding to every whim of Jimbo???

That way you and doubtless countless others who feel the same as you might just achieve rather more than a one off one percent and make Flybe somwhere people might actualy like to work instead of being compliant yessmen.........

Collectively you can all do something about it..............but frankly with attitudes like that I doubt if you will.

[six-sixty]

The company appear to wish to give us the best T & Cs the business model will allow

and there is the problem then. The company would have us believe business model depends on paying the meanest salaries and terms and conditions in the industry. If we want a humane roster pattern we must pay for it, end of. It does not matter what jam tomorrow commitments may have been made in the past how profitable we are/become, or how hard we work. The foot stays on our collective throat on principle.

Drum machine we all choose who's propaganda to believe, and you have every right to believe the Company's line on Balpa being the stubborn obstacle to the company's benevolence. I don't, and neither do most people I fly with.

Interesting times ahead.

[DrumMachine]

Drum Machine if I may say so that attitude absolutely typifies my dumb pilot observation........

And your's the left-wing thinking that has left our nation in such a mess. Now perhaps we can stop making personal remarks and respect the fact that others have a different opinion.

[Caractacus]

And your's the left-wing thinking that has left our nation in such a mess. Now perhaps we can stop making personal remarks and respect the fact that others have a different opinion.

DrumMachine, if I may so so you are the epitome of the modern sheople like employee. You believe everything your employer says and all will be green in the garden.

It is you who are 'left wing' because you are a happy to sit there and be told what the deal is! I am also ex RAF and left before the downturn in the early 1990's. One thing I learned very quickly in the civvy world is that if you don't stick up for yourself then the company will take advantage of you.

Over the years the airline pilots salary failed to keep up with RPI and. as a result, the profession has been downgraded to little more than that of a London Tube Driver - starting salary is just over £40,000 - and that is purely because pilots are too thick to realise that collective action works!

The only way to keep T&C's in line with other jobs is to join the union and adopt a common cause.

[Desk-pilot]

Some facts about Flybe,

It's owned by the 101st richest family in the land, who stand to gain in excess of a further £400 million when it is listed. It is run by an extremely wealthy and bright Scotsman whose 8% stake in the company will be worth in excess of £50 million when it lists. His salary of £400 000 plus bonus and Audi A8 means he will have been paid many multiples of the sums earned by the CEO'S of Lufthansa, BA and other global airlines over the same period. This huge wealth has been generated by crews who are worked currently to within inches of the law on the worst roster pattern and wages in the industry. Captains are paid in line with train drivers, FO's are paid bus driver wages, the aircraft are amongst the most efficient on fuel in the world. The airline has expanded relentlessly on the back of its hard pressed workforce and continues to do so. The pay freeze last year and 0.6% pay rise offered this year attest to the fact that the huge profits being earned are not intended to be used to improve the lot of the workers who have taken Flybe into the big league.

Ask yourself why when the market was last buoyant they were losing almost 10% of their pilots every month and the CAA was becoming concerned about experience levels amongst crews. The terms and conditions are rock bottom and a better deal can be had almost anywhere else.

The management must act now if they are to prevent the biggest exodus the company has ever faced coinciding with their big move into jets and Europe. You can't order $5 billion aeroplanes and then turn around and tell workers there's nothing in the pot without a backlash.

Flybe despite its friendly face is a ruthless juggernaut, every bit as hard nosed as Ryanair and Easyjet. The majority are suddenly waking up to this and their support is moving behind BALPA to address these issues with management before an unparalleled exodus begins.

Desk-pilot

[Serenity]

Year 4 f/o here, and I earn less than the guy who fuels the a/c!!!
The company refuses point blank to improve any scheduling or pay conditions. The list of possible improvements to put us on par with other airlines are too numerous to mention, but here we languish at the bottom of the pile!!

The management say we are a training airline for other jet carriers, don't care if hundreds leave and say if it costs a penny then you can't have it!!

BALPA seem to do bugger all about it!!
They fight for BA perks and pay, even got easyjet a 5-7% pay rise across various levels!!

Flybe crews wait, junior f/o's and senior captains have all stated that they can't take any more and will leave as soon as options are available!

Will Flybe crews grow a spine and stand up for fair conditions or just wither away to other carriers!!

[Coffin Corner]

Serenity that's the same BALPA who screwed over new joiner F/Os to pay the masses a hefty pay rise last time.

[Flightlevel001]

Serenity, Coffin Corner, Desk Pilot... All spot on.

People will leave, maybe the majority don't feel the need to fight for anything that the management will drag its heels over and ultimately fail to deliver. Why bother? The slightest sniff of pastures new and they'll be gone. It sounds selfish, but thats life (and the management certainly wouldn't give a toss).

If this is the way the company wants to conduct its business then let them do it. And as for the Training Academy being able to cope, will it? It only takes a few airlines to open the recruitment flood gates and it wouldn't be unreasonable to forecast up to 100 (at least) 3 month notices ending up on a desk in EXT. If that happens before the Academy is opened (or even after for that matter) then cope they will not...

[mateyboy]

due to their recent orders (30 777's and 50 A380's) Emirates need 500 FO's a year for the next 2-3 years. There will be a mass exodus from Ryanair, Easyjet, bmi, bmibaby and Jet2. Qatar and Etihad will follow suit to compete. The amount of pilots leaving to measure their penis by the size of aircraft they drive, and of course the delightful 46 degree celcius climate, will be phenonamal. the "seat blockers" will be scampering off to the sandpit. Ryanair will suffer, but easy, bmi and bmibay and maybe jet2 not as much cos they are good airlines to work for. but my point is lots of jet jobs. you guys leave and then flybe recruit from the schools and probably make money doing it. and then we have a boom. then in ten years it all goes tits up. then a fiscal stimulus or 2 later then recovery and wham....you can stop moaning about pesky jet flying too early and too late for 70 grand and move onto widebodies and start moaning about 100 grand. and then you retire and truly understand gardening. this industry is up and down and back up again then down..........
anyway...you guys get crew food at flybe....you lucky %£^"&*£*'s

[Coffin Corner]

mateyboy

Now what exactly is your definition of crew food? If your definition is inedible crap then yes we get crew food.

[5 RINGS]

@ Dumb Machine.

This is not about politics, this is about business...

The company actually enjoys a pretty good financial health but has no consideration to its workforce and claims poverty and all the rest the it...in fact just blatantly taking the mick.

Shareholders are equally important to the success of any business as workers. Each side must get its fair share...otherwise...it doesn't work.

[PaulW]

If you think Flybe have the worst terms and conditions in the industry for regional or turbo-prop FOs someone needs to wake up and smell the coffee. If your not happy with the conditions at Flybe then maybe Air SouthWest or Eastern would be better for you...No?

[Otto Throttle]

Personally, I can't wait for the exodus if it gets rid of the continuous whining. Flybe Ts&Cs aren't a government secret, nobody was ever forced to come here, nor was anyone forced to stay. Yet here we have a whole bunch of long-serving whingers, who no doubt have been whinging about the same things ever since they started, but still haven't voted with their feet. Grow a pair as big as your mouths and do one please, then the rest of us can work in peace.

[JB007]

Or maybe someone who's worked elsewhere and what FlyBe has to offer works for him/her?!?

If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan. What exactly were you expecting? It's a starter airline, Mr French knows exactly what the score is as does the owner of Loganair when I started, there are 1000's of guys and gals waiting in the wings (pardon the pun) to take your seat if you don't want it!

They've given you your first run on the ladder, some excellent time in your logbook on a good type and a stable job through a serious industry downturn - now if you want some good T&C's, move onto the jets, just as Mr French is expecting you to do (more than likely, as per his business model) and just like we all have done before you, we were all where you are now - get a couple of thousand hours of jet time under your belt, then compare your lifestyle or whatever is important to you...and then you are qualified to moan!

And those that think the CAA are worried about FlyBe's experience levels are those that have just hit the big ego stage about having a few years on a turbo-prop! If it keeps FlyBe flying - the CAA will back them 100% for protecting it's business...their Ops Inspector had to start somewhere too!!!

Right, the all you can eat buffet is about to kick off - where's my Alan Partridge 9" plate...

Cheers
JB

[Coffin Corner]

And I suppose those who have never worked for Flybe are not qualified to comment/moan either, have you ever worked for Flybe JB007? :=

[5 RINGS]

comparing Flybe to eastern or Air Southwest is utterly irrelevant and fondamentaly wrong...

Without any disrespect towards their employees, flight deck, cabin or ground, these businesses have very little in common. They are not of the same scale, don't meet the same success and don't share the same ambitions.

How many of the guys saying juniors have no right to complain sit high up the seniority list with comfortable salaries if not RAF/Navy/Legacy carrier pensions if not a combination of.

I have worked in the aerospace industry before flying, and the same old management tactics are at work..again...again and again...

Management is laughing when they look at our divided group of workers...this is simply appaulling. Before growing some teeth, pilots should grow a little bit of a brain and a sense of community and common interest.

[Calmcavok]

JB007, as you should probably realise, the situation is not as black and white a picture as you envisage. Whilst Flybe has historically been an airline for those at the extremes of their careers, it has had an opportunity to correct this, and with a fleet potential in excess of 140 airframes within the next few years, it will be pretty big. No longer an airline along the lines of one normally associated with the extremes of one's career, i.e. not in the ASW or Eastern league. At the moment there are in excess of 700 pilots on the seniority list. That will get bigger.

Pay, Scheduling & Pensions are the three major issues at the moment, and with not terribly much effort, a compromise could be found. However, there is no interest from the management at all. The company has grown well under the leadership of a good management team, but also with the hard work of a workforce that, I think is fair to say, have all really bought into the plans that French and the board have laid out. We have won numerous awards, we have been innovative and flexible w.r.t to the severe winters & ash, operating where other airlines have cancelled. Of course this is what we signed up to, but the continuing examples of so many crew going above and beyond are part of the Flybe way.

Put the above into the context of constant great sentiment from the company but, ultimately, virtually zero action towards our betterment in several years, and folk are getting fairly hacked off. Particularly when a 2% payrise offered, actually equates to only 0.3% (and especially after making good profits during a payfreeze), and a 50:50 pension offer transpires for some to be a 70:30 in favour of the company. Negotiation with the union is almost nil and then the info provided from HQ is spun and simplified so that the above appears to be a great deal, when it clearly is not with the revelation of a few more facts omitted in several communique.

Flybe isn't my first airline and at this rate it won't be my last, but that is irrelevant. Many people would like to stay and make a career, regardless of their backgrounds and with a little flexibility from above, it is very possible. With no movement on pay and conditions, many other airlines are much more attractive to so many at Flybe. We need to fix these growing pains.

[Caractacus]

. . . the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan.

You could tar a large part of British Airways with the same comment! :D

[Sinbad_633]

If all of the guys moaning on here about FlyBe's T&C's are on their first job, which I know some are, then you are not qualified to moan.

Well I may be in my first flying job and not qualified to moan, but at least I am prepared to work towards improvements in T&Cs.

Some questions I will ask to the experienced pilots of many years:

During the steady erosion of T&Cs over the past decade did you moan?
When airlines started demanding that people pay for type ratings did you moan?
When pay to fly started and the right hand seat became the most lucrative on the aircraft did you moan?
When airlines started classifying employees as contractors only to get around employment laws did you moan?

I suppose the above attitude was the one that prevailed during the last pay deal at flybe when the starting salary of FOs was cut in order to increase the other pay scales.

Divide et impera.

[PaulW]

Funny I thought we all had ATPLs and we were a known quantity and expect to be paid for the license that we hold. If you fly for any of the regional operators flying a turbo-prop, you compare what the term and conditions are with each company. A companies business model is irrelevent, I expect to be re-imbursed to an acceptable level, no matter whether I fly oil riggers, newspapers, rock bands, pop groups and premiership football teams or that scratch cards are sold in the cabin. Using 5 rings method to work out who is a real airline, then Flybe have got it good as they are the lowcost operator and it is then Flybe should earn less than the other carriers, but thats not the way the world works.
If its aircraft type thats the issue then Air Southwests dash8-2s are flown by Wideroe and they earn a princely sum, for an "old" turbo-prop. If its about flying an advanced turbo-prop then your sadly mistaken if a dash8-400 is the most advanced civil turbo-prop out there. To a company a turbo-prop is a turbo-prop end of, your no better trained, qualified or more deserving than any other turbo-prop pilot for a pay rise, we all deserve one.
5rings ones head needs to be pulled from ones arse, if you think other turbo-prop operators somehow dont qualify for comparison by Flybe management. You fly a turbo-prop no matter how embarrasing that may be for you. No matter how much you close your eyes you dont fly a 737 or an a320, if you think you can compare wages with operators operating these aircraft types.

Sorry that may sound harsh but you had that coming.

[Desk-pilot]

Guys, nobody is ungrateful to Flybe for giving people the chance to achieve this career, providing a bonded type rating and some excellent experience. Neither is anyone suggesting that a turboprop pilot should expect to earn as much as a jet pilot (even if many might argue that a turboprop can be harder to fly). However there are two different issues here:

1. Flybe is moving away from its provincial turboprop roots and becoming a significant pan-European jet operator and major player in the industry. Its pilots fully support the company's lofty ambitions but don't appreciate being taken for fools with a pay freeze last yr, a 0.3% pay rise this year and a complete lack of engagement in BALPA's attempts to improve quality of life here.

2. Having ordered a huge pile of jets the company is now trying to combine the jet and turboprop salaries at the turboprop rate in order to avoid having too many people on the jet scales (which incidentally are low compared to others out there anyway). I would argue that a 195 pilot deserves to be paid the same as an Airbus 319 pilot in Easy but they are about £15k less than that.

This company is becoming a force to be reckoned with - that's for sure, but the their obsession with rostering for maximum working days and ignorance of pay norms is causing many to look elsewhere, and that is rather sad.

Desk-pilot

[mad_bob]

Desk Pilot,
Couldn't agree more....:ok:

[5 RINGS]

PaulW,

Flybe has successfully navigated trough the financial storm asking its workforce to take a pay freeze, requested for volunteers for overseas contracts etc.

The business is profitable unlike many competitors included jet ones.

The workforce has played its role in this success and must now be rewarded.

I don't have any chip on my shoulder flying a TP simply because it's more hard work than a jet and you get to handfly it more and more often.

Finally Flybe shifts more passenger on the British domestic market. This leadership has to reflect on the payscale.

[JB007]

Desk Pilot, excellent points. I wish you guys all the best...especially considering what i've just paid to fly LGW-IOM!

[Tinytim]

Striking at FlyBe will produce nothing.


Hear, hear!

It is painful to say "I told you so.........." but those of us who got the hell out saw all this coming.

One look at the nature of the CEO was all it took to convince me.

You will never be able to successfully agitate for change because too many of your colleagues....for whatever reason.... are a spineless bunch who are content to accept mediocrity, short term gain and exploitation as an acceptable lifestyle.

I well remember when Flybe and BA Connect merged there was then an opportunity to insist that a proper scheduling agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essential safegaurds. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now?

As the man says.....those of you who can...get out.

TT

[Serenity]

Royston, know exactly what you mean, exeter regional thinking hopes we will do it all for the love of it, Flybe are light years behind other airlines currently!!
Like the sound of your planet!!

[Farfrompuken]

Royston,

FOUR sectors a day??!

HAVING to chase up fuel??!

COLD flightdeck??!

I amazed it hasn't hit the front page of the daily mail:

"Passengers terror as Biggles forced to find fuel to fly in winter"

bless.

[six-sixty]

. A one off £3000 agreement be carried into the new combined operation as well as a number of other essen. A one off £3000 bribe was all it took to secure compliance.................and arent you all paying the price now?

Superficially true. The difference was that the then cc caved in on our behalf without consulting us. A lot of people never forgave them and more would probably be members now had they handled it differently. Now we have a different cc and a realisation that we HAVE to fight and stand our ground. Apart from anything else the world has moved on and moving to the rhs of a jet in another co is no longer an option, for reasons well documented on other threads. flybe can't rely on the mass exoduses of the past to clear out the "wingers". We ain't going anywhere...there's nowhere to go!

[Burpbot]

I think you will find the £3000 was deposited into bank accounts without knowledge! Then a nice letter was received saying you have received a payment to compensate you for your reduction in terms and conditions. We had no choice! All but those who were leaving would gladly have handed the money back and kept are terms and conditions!

But a typical example of effective divide and conquer! Come on guys stick together and lets work towards making Flybe an airline people aspire to join! It surely makes sense for both employer and employee to both be happy??????

[G SXTY]

A cynical observer might suggest that a high turnover of FOs in particular, rather suits Flybe management. New FOs are cheaper than experienced ones, they are bonded, and are more likely to accept whatever Ts & Cs are thrown at them. If experienced people leave as soon as there are jobs elsewhere, big deal, they can be replaced easily and cheaply. Witness the steady stream of cadets, both internal and TCX, and moving the sims to the new training centre at EXT. It all points to an operation designed to train up lots of people, and quickly.

Frankly, I can't see any incentive whatsoever for the company to improve pay and rostering, unless they are forced to do so. 'Negotiations' – if that's the right word, have been going on for a long, long time, and have got us precisely nowhere.

It's all a pity, as I'd quite like to stay long-term – IF my salary and lifestyle were more in line with our competitors. Sadly though, I increasingly believe our management have no interest in serious negotiation, so like many of my colleagues, I'll be brushing up my CV when the time comes.

[Chesty Morgan]

Dunno G60, can they cope with:

- 195 command courses (one sim at Gatwick, none at the training centre afaik), plenty of 195 bods either leaving imminently or actively looking
- 195 type rating courses
- Q400 command courses
- Q400 type rating courses
- And tripling of the jet fleet over 3 years

All at the same time? Doubtful in my mind.

And there is an awful lot of people wanting to leave, more than I've heard of in the last 11 years. Flybe needs to seriously sort themselves out very quickly.

[Iver]

Are pilots with a decent amount of E195 time (either Capt or FO) getting looks from the LCCs and ME carriers like Emirates, Etihad and Qatar? Does having that E195 time help if you are looking elsewhere (even if you only have FO time)?

[G SXTY]

Yep, one colleague with E195 time is off to the sandpit imminently.

[Serenity]

There's more than one already!!!!
:D

[Toastal]

Guys,

I agree with most of what's being put on here, and despite not working for the company, but having MANY friends that do, I have a couple of things to say.......

1. 140 new jet orders
2. Potential floatation in the next while
3. possible upturn in the job market
4. Air France/KLM codeshares
5. Taking your NI contributions
6. **** money for doing effectively regional jet/ Euro jet routes but happen to fly turo-props on said **** salary
7. Ridiculous scheduling agreement
8. Embarrassing pay rise


You all need to sort this NOW. Get behind your crew council and don't settle for a penny less than you're worth. My company ended up giving us a pay rise and a life-style agreement, after the threat to strike. Many had no intention of striking, but the threat was enough, especially with a company like this, who wants potential investors to buy in soon (not keen if there's an unhappy workforce).

There is no better time to do this than NOW. If you can't sort out the T&Cs this time round, then it'll never happen again with Flybe. Company won't care if you work to rule, don't save fuel, work into discretion, go that extra mile? Bo##ocks, they'll sit up and listen!!

Not meaning to kiss ass or blow smoke, but you guys are overworked and under paid for the job that you do in this industry, and it needs to end.

T:suspect:

[PAPI-74]

I am in the same boat with someone else. The fact is, you fly a TP with a limited earning potential on short hops with about 78 pax, not a 320/737 150+ pax all buying stuff and on a package holiday.

You don't earn them enough £££ to pay you anymore; it is that simple.
Keep learning and get out when you can. Job done!

[JB007]

PAPI-74 is spot on - why do people keep thinking FlyBe is going to start paying what a B737/B757/A320 operator is paying...this world has never been like that!!!!

[Sean Dillon]

And six-sixty you're on another planet mate!

your old TP vs Jet cliches don't work in the current reality

It's totally relevant today - my son was made redundant from a large UK, Charter and career airline earlier this year - he's earning about £25k a year more on a year one salary at his new UK employer than our friend Aeromaniac...

FlyBe is an example of this era's management culture, it's everywhere - get on with it or move on if you think it's better elsewhere...

And save your money...don't be stupid enough to think BALPA will be able to change it, BALPA has had it's day...this is a new era...

[Desk-pilot]

JB007,

Nobody expects the same pay on a Q400 as on a 737 however you have to ask why SFO's on the 195 earn £37k plus £2k flight pay and Captains earn £59k plus £2k flight pay when these figures are at least £20k higher even at Easyjet, never mind BA on an Airbus 319 which has similar capacity.

Then we also have to factor in that a Flybe Q400 pilot flies 5 days (20 sectors) a month more than Easyjet, so currently that makes up for some of the fact that our seat capacity on the Q400 is only 65-70% of that of a 319.

Then factor in the fact that a Q400 burns probably 2/3 the fuel of a 319 on a similar leg, yet the fare charged will be the same per rpk or probably even more. I think you could say that Flybe are raking it in!!

The Flybe CEO earns £400 000 a year, compared with £674 000 for Willie Walsh at BA, which is roughly 60% of the BA CEO salary. His Flybe share options will however exceed £50 million when the company lists on the stock market, so taken over the past 5 years his total remuneration will exceed that of the BA CEO by many multiples - indeed a factor of ten probably!!!

I think the staff at Flybe (which grew revenue over 8% last year) deserve rather more than a 2% pay rise for their efforts.

Incidentally while SFO upgrade at Easy is a £10k uplift in salary it's £500 at Flybe and you have to stump up £250 to unfreeze your licence yourself for the privilege.

This airline has shown remarkable success in recent years, it could be a fantastic place to be IF management started to reward staff in line with the company's success. We are all tremendously enthusiastic about what has been achieved and what Flybe can do in the next ten years, however the Lancashire mill owner attitude towards workers of late is losing goodwil - and they have always been more important than anything in successful business.

DP

[PAPI-74]

SS - I am not sure if that justifies a reply really - a tad childish and obviously you attitude shrouds a lack of industry knowledge! Generally the ones who respond with volume or abuse do.

If a jet operator's business model is failing or the economy is on a down-turn, the potential is still there with the range and capacity of a given platform. 30 -70 seats and a 1.5hr flight remains the constant with a TP, so is the demand for a flight from LGW to JSY.
If eg Jet2 have a 767 (about 250 pax) all on a 4-9hr flight wanting drinks, duty free etc.. and buying one of the Jet2 package holidays, car hire and insurance, the flight might work out yielding zero profit, but the bar and the holiday earn the company big money. More than a few quid per seat on a hop to Jersey (we are talking TP's not the Jets). The trick is adaptation to fashion, season and demand; operating a route for the slots knowing that it isn't doing well, is a known tactic to stop others having the slot. It also adds to customer loyalty.
Knowing your customer is extremely important too. If you are based at LCY, your passenger’s expectations are different to that of LBA. The service you provide is adapted to make the most money in the time you have. In a regional hop, the cruise is 30mins at best. They won’t buy anything, especially a FlyBe cup of £3.50 tea.
FlyBe rely on high frequency and nicking other airlines popular routes - they are the cuckoo of the regionals. The fact that their crews are flying 6 sector 11hr days is proof that they don't care.
Agreed, the jet operators in weaker positions have been culled, but the market was being saturated anyway.
As SD mentioned, BALPA is toothless. Forget them!

Hit me with it!:ok:

[Burpbot]

PAPI 74

Would seem you lack knowledge of the industry! Do you have any idea how much money is taken from onboard sales on a SOU-JER 30 min blocktime? Not to mention the plethora of ancillary sales!

You are right about about them been tight fisted and mean though! I hope they learn before they bring a pretty decent airline down! :ugh: