Arrested by police after complaining about sandwich on Ryanair

[FinalVectors]

Hi!

I know it's summer time in the papers, but still this story I find quite strange:}

How can you call police because of a passenger complaining of a sandwich not beeing as promised??
Do RYR crew have to pay from own pockets if sales don't match the purse??

Incident: Ryanair B738 enroute on Jul 20th 2010, passenger considered unruly over food dispute (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42e99ae7&opt=0)

Link in Norwegian with pictures of the rubber sandwich Ryanair forsvarer sandwich-politi - Østfold - NRK Nyheter (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostfold/1.7218834)

Regards
FinalVectors

[onetrack]

A complaint about the edibility of airline food? I've never heard of such a thing!! :suspect:

FV - The report says the passenger created a ruckus over the rubber sandwich. Unruly passengers are deemed a threat to air safety, are they not? - and are not CC charged with subduing unruliness?

There's definitely a fine line here. I was recently threatened with being ejected from a casino for creating a ruckus. It was as a result of trying to obtain food in their food establishment. They have a "food hall" setup whereby one can obtain varieties of food - Asian, Steak & Burger, Indian, Carvery, etc etc. There's some overlap in the offerings.

There was a large sign offering a steak deal. I elected to take the steak deal and lined up in the queue at the steak and burger counter, waited for 20 mins to reach the counter and get served - only to be told... "Sorry, you need to get the steak deal from the adjoining section/counter". :(
I joined the queue at the next counter, and waited for another 15 mins to reach the counter... only to told..."Sorry, you need to get that from the Steak and Burger counter!" :ugh:

To say I was ropeable at this stage is an understatement. To be shunted around by imbeciles, and waiting for an interminable time to get served, and to told each time that I was at the wrong counter, really got me going. I started a loud (and very angry) rant about the utter incompetence of the staff and the organisation.
I'm not normally loud and aggressive, but these incompetent people really made me lose my cool. I could see myself on a endless chain of run-arounds. There wasn't a manager to be seen, or any indication of where one could contact a manager or supervisor.

Of course, within 30 seconds of my outburst, I had a very large security person at my shoulder, telling me to "calm down". This wasn't the satisfaction I was seeking, and I abused him as well. This brought forth a threat to eject me from the establishment.
If it wasn't for the fact that my better half had already acquired her meal, and was sitting waiting for me, I would have taken up his offer and removed myself from the establishment.

This security person continued his strong efforts, to reduce my complaints to an inaudible level. He did succeed in placing me at the head of the queue and getting my food order in a relatively short space of time.
The food wasn't worth the effort anyway, when I finally did get to eat it... and I will never set foot in that establishment ever again, anyway.

If people run a "service business", they had better provide what satisfies the customer. If the customer is unsatisfied, he will walk, never return, and only offer up adverse opinions, any time he's asked about the "service organisation".

If Ryanair actually believe that this episode is great, free publicity, that will improve the customer numbers, then I have been under a severe misunderstanding all my life, that people never return to a place where they have received poor service, and that that business model that does not provide excellent customer service, is set on a course to eventual failure.

[AnthonyGA]

Unruly passengers are deemed a threat to air safety, are they not? Careful analysis will reveal that unruly passengers are almost never an actual threat to the safety of a flight. They are merely an annoyance. However, cabin crews take advantage of today's extreme paranoia about airline safety by attempting to treat certain passengers who displease them as a threat to safety. Most passengers so treated apparently do not contest the treatment.

There have been many egregious abuses, although in general crews remain reasonable. In this case, the crew's behavior was clearly abusive, and the passenger might well have a claim against the airline, but I suspect he let it drop.

[Taltop]

don't forget to pay the 50Cents when you need to drain after eating the sandwich:}

[deep_south]

According to Airline ejects passenger for being hungry ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/22/man_pulled_from_plane_for_asking/)

"United Airlines ejected a loyal first class passenger from a recent plane flight because he asked if he would be getting dinner. At least, that's his story. He may have been ejected because he's the sort of security threat who claims he's talking about food when he's really talking about the police."

Apparantly the FA misheard and thought he had asked if there were police on the flight, so he was taken off and rebooked on the next flight...

unbeleivable - he was a security threat on the first flight, but not the second...!

[TightSlot]

Don't you all think that there is just the faintest possibility that the situation was just a little more complicated than was reported in the link?

However, cabin crews take advantage of today's extreme paranoia about airline safety by attempting to treat certain passengers who displease them as a threat to safety

Unacceptable pax are also unacceptable to those others sitting in the immediate area around them - this could be why there has frequently been spontaneous applause on those rare occasions when I have called police to have people removed from the aircraft.. But then, what do I know?

[ReverseFlight]

Pax: Hey Captain, there's a fly in my soup !

Captain: Don't insult me as I'm flying in it. :}

[Nicholas49]

As TightSlot says, those people who actually believe the situation unfolded as described in the link, i.e.:

1) Passenger complains that sandwich is not fresh;
2) Cabin crew report this to captain;
3) Captain requests police meet aircraft on arrival.

...need their head checking. :ugh:

[etrang]

Don't you all think that there is just the faintest possibility that the situation was just a little more complicated than was reported in the link?

I would say yes, that is possible. I think quite plausible that the "sandwich" was less toothsome than advertised, and the CC may have been unwilling to refund payment - perhaps because they would then be charged for it by their employer.

[Nicholas49]

etrang - and you think that such an event would result in the police being called? I sincerely doubt it.

[Di_Vosh]

Careful analysis will reveal that unruly passengers are almost never an actual threat to the safety of a flight. They are merely an annoyance.

"Merely an annoyance", eh AnthonyGA ?

I suggest that next time you're paxing on an aircraft and you see another passenger being "disruptive", you ask the CC to be seated next to said passenger. After all, you'll be experiencing a "mere annoyance".

In this case, the crew's behavior was clearly abusive,

Really? You got that from the link? I'm not fluent in Norwegian so I don't know what was printed in that one, but the first link was pretty neutral.

I'm guessing that you're not either Flight or Cabin crew.

DIVOSH!

[FinalVectors]

Hi!

Just to confirm.this was NOT a unruly passenger, he did just refuse to pay for a product which did not keep what the flashy advertice did promise.
He did also offer to take something else like as a substitute for the sandwich.
And he did pay for the beer he did buy alongside with it.
So no screaming, yelling or kicking:}

So back to my question, really can't understand how they can misuse police resources for this. Only way is maybe if RYR crew have to pay for it if the purse don't add up with sale after landing, so any RYR people out here who can answer if CC have to pay from own pocket in a situation like this??

regards
FinalVectors

[Di_Vosh]

Just to confirm.this was NOT a unruly passenger,

Final Vectors, I'm curious as to know how you can confirm this. Genuine question.

Regards,

DIVOSH!

[FinalVectors]

He was not unruly according to interview in norwegian media with police and other pasengers.
So this is just a case about a CC calling police for someone not wanting to pay for a product which don't keep it's promise.
Only logic explination for this complete overreaction I think have to be that the CC had to pay for the sandwich if passengers didn't pay. So any RYR employees out there who can confirm (or not) that CC have to pay from their own pocket??

Regards
FinalVectors

[Abusing_the_sky]

Only logic explination for this complete overreaction I think have to be that the CC had to pay for the sandwich if passengers didn't pay. So any RYR employees out there who can confirm (or not) that CC have to pay from their own pocket??Not logic at all; when that happens, any CC (i can guarantee you that) would simply put down the said sandwich on the discrepancy form that will go with all the other bar paperwork, i.e. "1-sandwich : returned by pax due to [insert here]". No CC would ever have to pay for that sandwich or any other item from the bars for that matter.

This "story" is just pure cr@p journalism. No CC, No1 or Cpt would ever call for the police just for the sake of it; whenever i called for the police was because i caught someone smoking, or being violent towards the crew or pax, so my guess is that, in this case, something else happened and the juorno failed to see it and report it as it happened.

Nothing to see here. Just another example of the "power" of cr@p journalism.

[tezzer]

But on an EK flight from Dubai to Manchester a while ago, a married couple were sat over the aisle from me. Every now and again the man (in drink) would slug his wife when he thought no one was watching. She would then kick of and whack him back. This happened a few times, so on a loo visit, I mentioned it to the CC. They thanked me and advised they would monitor the situation. The man continued to be served strong drink, and continued with increasing frequency and severity to wallop his wife. Despite my pointing it out to the cabin crew, each time it happened, they just asked HIM if all was alright, to which he'd reply "yes, another Scotch please" and as soon as their backs were turned she'd get another slap.
She tried to get up and leave, but was told to sit down, as there were no other seats available, which gave him another reason to slap her in the mouth for her "stupidity".

If I were younger, and bigger than my 5'4" I would have given him a dig myself, but he went unchallenged until they disembarked, and went their separate ways.

Personally, I would have had him moved, restrained and met at the arrival gate by the police and chrged with assualt (at least).

Makes you proud to be British sometimes.

[onetrack]

tezzer - Unfortunately, as many police will tell you, becoming involved in domestic disputes will generally reward you with the violence from both parties being rained on you... :ugh:

I recall a couple that lived in a country town near me. The frightful screaming and yelling and thumping noises would start late every night, right after enough alcohol had been consumed.
Examination of the scene through any uncurtained window, would show a husband holding his wife by the throat, strangling her, and pummelling her like a punching bag... :eek:
The screams were blood-curdling, to say the least, and once calls to to the police brought them to the scene, they were promptly and roundly abused... by the WIFE!... and told to F-off!!
Once the police left... it was back to the punching, thumping and blood-curdling screams again... :ugh:

One learnt that some people just enjoy regular biffo as part of the marital setup. You probably didn't see them leave the airport hand in hand, and the picture of marital bliss.... :ugh:

[etrang]

So back to my question, really can't understand how they can misuse police resources for this.

Assuming it happened as you say, i'm not sure i would call getting the police involved "misuse of police". If someone went into a restaurant on the ground, ordered food and then refused to pay for it, what would you expect the staff to do?

[etrang]

No CC would ever have to pay for that sandwich or any other item from the bars for that matter.

Are you sure that's the the case with Ryan Air? I know that many ground based businesses that i am familiar with, fast-food restaurants, bars, and gas stations for example, WOULD deduct the money from staff salaries.

[onetrack]

If someone went into a restaurant on the ground, ordered food and then refused to pay for it, what would you expect the staff to do? Staff and management of a ground-based food establishment can do very little about someone who orders food and then refuses to pay for it.

It's within the customers rights to refuse food that does not meet the customers requirements. The staff and management would need to prove that a fraudulent activity was being perpetrated upon them, by ordering the food and then refusing to pay for it.

Only if the customer consumed the food, THEN refused to pay for it, would staff and management have good reason to call police - and a customer WILL be charged, with obtaining food by deception, in cases such as this.

Of course if the food IS highly satisfactory, and the customer has refused it for no good reason, then that is poor behaviour - but nowhere that I know of, is it a chargeable offence.
Many food-serving establishments reduce the potential problems by insisting on payment, prior to orders being prepared.

I recall being in a newly-opened restaurant once, having breakfast with Mrs O, and being less than impressed with the poor quality of the breakfast. The owner was doing the rounds of the tables, as all good food managers should do, asking customers if everything was O.K.

He got to me and asked the question, and I told him I was unhappy with what had been served up. The bacon was exceptionally fatty, the eggs and tomatoes were poor quality, and the whole lot was poorly cooked.
He whipped the half eaten meal off the table, and just said; "I'll get you a fresh meal that meets your requirements!".

He returned the plate to the kitchen, spoke to the chef and kitchen staff and ordered a fresh breakfast. He came back to my table, and said to me; "Never EVER, accept a substandard meal in my establishment! If what you are eating is not satisfactory, RETURN IT IMMEDIATELY! - and I will ensure that you get what meets your requirements!!"

Now, this bloke knew all the requirements of running a food business, to a standard that met or exceeded customers expectations. He was running a SERVICE business, and he understood people expected good SERVICE... both from staff, and from the product he dispensed.

If more people like the gentleman on the above flight, rejected food that was unsatisfactory, we'd soon all get VERY good quality food. As for rejection of food on a flight, I see no difference between food served on a flight, or served on the ground, as long as the gentlemen didn't indulge in unruly or abusive behaviour.
Rejecting a food offering that is substandard, and which has been paid for, in a manner that doesn't cause offence, is a black art; and one that we all need to practice more. :)

[Abusing_the_sky]

Are you sure that's the the case with Ryan Air? I am not just sure, i am positive. Been with FR for over 6 years now, 5 years and 2 months as No1. Whenever the issue of a bad sandwich (in the eyes or taste buds of a pax) arises, all i do is take it back, refund or replace, write it down on the paperwork and that's that. Never had to pay for it from my own wages, nor was i even once questioned about it.

FR are not all that bad; I flew Bmi Baby the other day, as pax, minding my own business in days off, the sandwich i brought was at least 2 days old and the coffee tasted like it came down the drain along with the waste in the a/c. Nonetheless, i paid for it, hated it, never complained, put the remains in the gash bag that was kindly showed into my face by a smiling CC, got off the a/c at destination, got on with my short holiday and with my life in general.
My story never made the newspapers tho, did it?...


....

I rest my case. Move along, nothing to see here.

Rgds,
ATS

[onetrack]

Abusing_the_sky - Yes, but... there may be nothing to see here, as far as major aviation problems are concerned... but the point I was trying to make is... that acceptance of any crap dished up to you, without complaint, only results in lower and lower standards of service and goods.

At what point will you refuse the food you paid for? Never? So they can dish up anything to you, by way of service and products, and you just meekly take it??

This is what is wrong with our societies of the 21st century. We are slowly being brainwashed to accept lower and lower standards in everything. From food... to Chinese goods that fall apart a day after you buy them... right through to behaviour standards. :hmm:

If managers, CEO's, trainers, educators and others high up in the systems, keep lowering standards, we will all end up like Nth Korea. A nation of substandard individuals, brainwashed into accepting anything, and incapable of producing anything of value... except maybe sub-standard nuclear weapons... :rolleyes:

[radeng]

One interesting point is where food is inedible because of mould or whatever. If you complain, it will likely be binned and nothing ever said. If, on the other hand, you quietly take it to your local trading standards/ environmental health or whatever they're called, the supplier will, in the UK, probably get a visit and maybe a prosecution. Now what happens if the sandwich on the aircraft is mouldy and you tell the crew, but keep the sandwich for the authorities?

I can't see you winning any popularity stakes with the CC.....

[Rwy in Sight]

onetrack,

I think the art of complaining deserves a special thread. To whom should we complain, what to ask for, what to do in case the person receiving the complain does not solve the issue etc.

Regarding the lowering of the standards I think the case you "get what you pay for" is very valid. We mostly go for the lowest bid (not that going for a higher will make a difference in quality) and thus we have no ground to complain.

Also I particularly enjoy the signs in the UK where customers / pax are asked not to harass the front line staff for any problems they encounter. Sometimes I think "yes go through the problem and when able write a complain only to be answered by a standard PR letter" is what the management wants to take place.

Rwy in Sight

[onetrack]

I think the art of complaining deserves a special threadRwy in Sight - I would have to concur with that statement.

To whom should we complain, what to ask for, what to do in case the person receiving the complain does not solve the issue, etc.
On the ground, it's generally pointless to complain to wait or counter staff, as they rarely have the power (or the ability) to remedy the complaint.

Ask for the manager, and if one can be found, put your complaint factually and without abuse, but forcefully, to him/her. Make it very obvious you consider that what you received, fell far below an acceptable standard - and that you paid good money and it's reasonable for a customer to expect a highly satisfactory standard or level of goods/performance.

If the manager refuses to do anything, or doesn't remedy the situation, fire off a letter or email to the highest contact you can find, in the organisation or company. Putting things in writing usually gets results. Tell them that you don't want to be fobbed off with just a voucher or a credit, you wish to see a measureable improvement in the goods/services delivered.

In the air, things are somewhat different. If I was served sub-standard food as an airline passenger, I would protest to the CC, and if the food quality wasn't rectified, I'd be keeping the example, taking as many notes as possible, photos of the offending item... then firing off a missive to the most senior manager in the organisation after I completed the flight... with a copy to the CEO. I'd be telling them the same things as any ground-based operation... that their service/quality level wasn't up to reasonable expectations, and that you expect to see something done about it.

[radeng]

Is there legal redress available, such as the Small Claims Court in the UK, for bad food etc on an airline? If you buy a sofa or a chair or whatever that doesn't meet the standards expected, there is, so why not Ryanair sandwiches?

[IJM]

Now what happens if the sandwich on the aircraft is mouldy and you tell the crew, but keep the sandwich for the authorities?

I can't see you winning any popularity stakes with the CC.....

Radeng - if a clearly sub-standard product (eg. a mouldy sandwich) is shown to the CC, then they should do whatever it takes to remedy the situation.

Any CC member who doesn't assist the passenger in such a case needs to be made known to his/her management.

[Arriva driver]

I can just see it - Skipper, better take up the hold, we've got a passenger who wants to photograph his sandwich.

[Common Sense Flyer]

Who would pay over the odds for a Ryanair sandwich anyway?

[onetrack]

Who would pay over the odds for a Ryanair sandwich anyway?
Gasp! - Are you actually inferring, that a low-cost airline would supply low-cost food! :eek:

The most accurate version of the story appears to be in the Irish Times, and it is complete with a lengthy interview with the passenger, one Henrik Ulven.

It appears that an over-zealous stewardess met up with a passenger, who perhaps adopted what she saw, as an aggrieved and righteous attitude of complaint, that fell into the category of CC abuse.

Mr Ulven tried to order 2 options of hot meals, and was informed that both were unavailable. He then ordered the "chicken premium sandwich". Naturally with a name like that, one would be led to believe it was superior to a run-of-the-mill sandwich. :)

Mr Ulven says his money was in his jacket in the overhead locker, and he would pay for the sandwich next time he was able to get up. However, upon tasting the sandwich, it fell far short of his "superior" expectations and obviously fell into the "inferior" range. :suspect:

He then called the stewardess and told her he wouldn't be paying for a sandwich that he regarded as inedible. She obviously saw this as a non-payment fraud being perpetrated, and along with what she perceived as aggravating behaviour, decided the passenger was guilty of disruptive behaviour, and this warranted police being called upon landing.

I believe that this was a particularly poor reaction to the unfolding events, and shows a serious lack of judgement and training on behalf of Ryanair CC.

However, given the low-cost mantra of Ryanair, which obviously extends to scrimping on staff training, particularly with regard as to how to address passengers legitimate complaints - then I'd have to say that this particular event shows everyone just what they can expect from this particular airline.

I guess Mr Ulven expected top-class treatment from a bottom-class airline. He's old enough to have known better. I'll wager he doesn't make the same mistake again. :suspect:

Ryanair denies overreacting in sandwich incident - The Irish Times - Fri, Jul 23, 2010 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0723/1224275296105.html)

[sprocky_ger]

At least the majority of Ryanair pax dont care. They still book their flights in masses. Maybe they are masochistic: "C'mon, treat me like Ryanair!" :}

[Coquelet]

Mr Ulven says .... Mr Ulven claims that ... very well, but ...
Does Mr Ulven tells the pure and absolute thruth and is the Ryanair stewardess of course a liar ?
Why would Mr Ulven's version be the "most accurate" one ?

[west lakes]

Though of course if you have a poor meal in a restaurant and refuse to pay then - expect the police to be called!

[BillS]

Though of course if you have a poor meal in a restaurant and refuse to pay then - expect the police to be called!
All they might do is take your name and address.
Its a civil matter - not criminal. (http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/2006/11/09/310175/Refusal-to-pay-for-a-meal.htm)

[Ancient Observer]

For the Brits, it is very simple. Complain to the CC, and ask for a copy of the record that they have made. If they have not made a record, ask for a signed document to that effect.
Then, take the offending sandwich to both elfinsafety and to trading standards. Put all comms in writing, and if sending them via the post, send only via recorded delivery.
Take/send all the paperwork to both the CAA (SRG, lgw, FOI group - complain about the poisonning of pilots) and the Daily Mail.
Simples

[Alanwsg]

The story has appeared on the Money Saving Expert's site ....

Ryanair passenger arrested after chicken sandwich dispute - MoneySavingExpert News (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/travel/2010/07/ryanair-passenger-arrested-after-on-board-chicken-sandwich-dispute)

[racedo]

The usual IF its Ryanair then they or the staff must be lying and over reacting and the Pax is always telling the whole story.

Passengers wanting to switch to something where he hadn't yet paid the bill for what he decided he hated.
Given he was Peed off already that his hot food choices weren't available and then ordered a sandwich and not paid for it, decided he didn't like it and wanted something else then not unsurprisingly CC decided enough was enough.

If having paid for it and it it unedible as he claims then CC as per FR crewmember has already pointed out its not an issue to change it, expecting to change something while still unpaid understandably gets a different response.

[critter592]

...so my guess is that, in this case, something else happened and the journo failed to see it and report it as it happened.


Perhaps the passenger assaulted the CC with the rubber sandwich? :}

[Abusing_the_sky]

Perhaps the passenger assaulted the CC with the rubber sandwich?Or perhaps, the CC had enough of the moaning for nothing from the said pax and adopted the "Sir, i am here to save your a$$, not kiss it" attitude? Remember, CC are humans too, we might not be allowed to swear whilst in uniform, or harm a society reject whilst in uniform, but by god we still have feelings, just like everyone else.
I wouldn't call a mortgage advisor or a loan advisor a "c**t" just because i don't fall in the "right category", would i?
So why is it ok for a pax to abuse and call names a CC who is just doing his/her job?

Well done that CC and Cpt for supporting the Cabin Crew. Galley FM says this incident was way deeper than what it was reported to be in the newspapers, and the said pax was... well let's say not very nice to the CC. Calling the CC a "c**t" and a "stupid b!tch" is not what the CC had in mind before reporting for that flight. If it was me, i would sue him for defamation of character as well as damaging my professional reputation in front of other people.

Oh sorry dear Mr Ulven, i do apologise for not staying up all night before the flight, to cook sandwiches, and then present you with the most fresh, ever so tasteful chicken sandwich for you to enjoy during your flight. I sincerely apologise for me not being the slave you always wanted me to be. I'll just lay here, in front of you, for you to step on me, might as well rub your shoes on me since you are treating me like a doormat anyway. Have a nice flight Mr Ulven!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[etrang]

Galley FM says this incident was way deeper than what it was reported to be in the newspapers,

What exactly is Galley FM saying?

If it was me, i would sue him for defamation of character

I think you would lose, on the grounds of;

Opinion is a defense recognized in nearly every jurisdiction. If the allegedly defamatory assertion is an expression of opinion rather than a statement of fact, defamation claims usually cannot be brought because opinions are inherently not falsifiable. and

No actual injury: If there is third-party communication, but the third-party hearing the defamatory statement does not believe the statement, or does not care, then there is no injury, and therefore, no recourse.

Defamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation)

[Lotpax]

On top of what etrang says, a jury might also decide the alleged statements are fair comment on the behaviour of the CC member - being abusive is not the same as being defamatory, although I have to say that those words are quite vile.

It depends on how the witnesses describe what happened and as none of us were there, maybe it is best not to comment on whether it was defamatory?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

After all it is impersonating food, and the HSE will take all the action required.

glf

[AR1]

Hoof him out of the door. I didn't pay all that money to have someone trying to score political points over food (at the least) and be an unstable halfwit (at the most) in an environment where I'm scared witless anyway, despite what I make out to the family.

Shut up, read your paper and we'll all be fine. So the statistics say.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

or you will get arrested too.

glf

[Lotpax]

in an environment where I'm scared witless anyway

Perhaps you should seek some professional assistance (fear of flying course)?

It is not good to fly if you are so stressed, will not do you any good.

[etrang]

Hoof him out of the door.

Sadly, illegal at 10,000 meters.