American Pilots at Emirates

[carlsonclan]

Do you like flying there? You have your family there and how do they like it?
Where were you before, and how does it compare?
Im at american eagle now for 12 years making the change is a hard choice to make.
If there are complaints, what are they?

[Fearless Leader]

Jeeze there FHM. Give the man a break before he even gets here.

There is part of the problem with working here. Absolutely no slack.

He does bring up point though, there has been literally pages and pages of info. You have to do a little reading yourself. Then ask again after you have done the research.

Good luck, your going to need it.

[Laker]

Sure hope Flaphandlemover doesn't represent the general disposition of the average EK pilot. You must be a real pleasure to work with. Out of curiosity to which "FORM" are you referring? Does EK provide a form that answers the original question?

"
If you really want to come to Emirates... One essential requirement is:
TO BE ABLE TO READ.

READ THE FORM BE4 posting....
"

[carlsonclan]

where do I find it, Ive been looking no luck. thanks

[BigGeordie]

I think he means read the "forum". All of your questions and more have been answered many times before. Actually most of the guys (and girls) here are a pleasure to fly with. One of the few silver linings at the moment.

[Laker]

Of course he meant "forum." The point was if you're trying to imply that somebody's post was stupid, you should at least know how to write properly.

[a747jb]

Hey Carlson Clan,

Since nobody has really answered your question, I will try to, in a short manner. They are correct in saying you need to go read the other older forums though as they go much more in depth. I am single and was previously a captain at a regional so I can only pass along things I see from my friends with kids and families, but here are the basics.

1. Emirates have totally and completely screwed any former rj driver due to an amendment to their policy with regards to time over 55 tonnes (115000 pounds roughly) If you are a b777 driver, it only screws you on the upgrade, if you are an a330 driver like me, your are completely f...ed and are locked onto a dying fleet as you cannot even transfer to the A380 and EK rarely allows transfer to the 777 fleet. So, be prepared for a long long time before you can upgrade. Things change overnight here, but as of now, they have screwed EVERY former rj driver, especially the ones on the a330 fleet.

2. FO pay here is good, if you are single. Add a wife and even 1 kid into the mix, and you will find Dubai to be horrific at swallowing money at every corner. Look no further than the local grocery store to discover a head of iceburg lettuce will cost you 5 bucks and a back of cruttons for that salad will add on another 5. There are many many hidden expenses in Dubai and its already a very expensive city

3. You don't even know what being tired is until you come work for EK. Fatigue is a HUGE problem here. Even if rosters go back to a normal value, you will be sleeping at all hours of the day. Translation, from family guys I have talked to, the wife and kids DON'T like it!

4. Frustration, Frustration, Frustration. Dubai will make you want to bang your head into a wall when it comes to getting anything done. This is multiplied with a family. Its a first world face with third world mentality. Going to the bank is one of the biggest pains in the ass you ever did know.

5. Travel back home is not free like it is in the US. It actually costs quite a bit here. The flight benefits are absolutely terrible compared to back home, and yes, even worse than the meager 24 passes you get a year at Eagle.

6. Heat. Say no more. Welcome to 50 C days with humidity

Now, thats just a start, go read some of the other threads. There are a few good things about working here. Getting picked up for work, they feed us like kings on the plane (although it is still airline food), very multicultural for the kids, opportunity to see the other side of the world, pretty good health care for you (not really for your family from what I have been told), and for the most part, you work with great people. My recommendation to you though is since you are a captain at Eagle, STAY there. If you must move, move to a major US carrier. You and your family will be much happier in the long run. That is just my opinion, others may share another.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I totally agree with these remarks, I have worked all over the world, and apart from the heat/humidity love UAE.

Yes there a problems, and many problems are highlighted in the local newspapaers. I would suggest as well as reading these fora, anyone should also read the on line news papers (take big pinch of salt), and understand that the news is gov controlled, but the sub text is not.
Level 6 English is needed to translate.
Food stuffs imported from the other side of the globe are expensive, and usually sold in the up market stores.
Look down market, slightly and then the cost of living is reduced, but yes still not cheap.

Just one word of advice: DONT CUT YOUR HOME LIFELINE. Your existance here is as a guest, and as such can be asked to leave at a moments notice, for the slightest infringement of the unwritten, or sometimes just unenforced rules and regulations. Such as miss parking in a "private" car park.

Glf

[Capt Krunch]

Although I do not work for EK i would generally have to agree with a747jb.
The situation is very much the same in Qatar. some may say it is worse 10 fold, but thats just a matter of opinion. The fact remains that it is not a place of green grassy pastures. It might sound good and may also seem exciting. maybe you even think you might be able to save all that tax free money you hear that we make, But sadly it's NOT so.
if your family is happy, if you have a decent job, then stay home..
if your down on your luck, have no job, bank took your house, wife left you for your best friend, dog died, kids runaway from home.. then after you think long and hard.. maybe you might think of coming out to this part of the world to start anew, but only if you must:}.


poisoned by compromise
krunch

[Payscale]

747

Dont agree with point 1!
Guys off the RJs were very very lucky to get a job on a widebody jet in the first place. Bet you couldnt do that jump back home. I couldnt where I come from. So you will sit 6-7 years until you get a command. Is that so long!!?

So now you complain you cant make the jump from the smallest category of jet around to the largest jet in the world in a record time... Please, drink some water. The heat and valid frustrations, which there are plenty of, are getting to you. :rolleyes:

[Oblaaspop]

Payscale makes a very valid point. Exactly how long would it take you to move from CRJ to Left seat of a wide body at a US Major?

I'm guessing the thick end of 2 (maybe 3) DECADES. So whilst I agree that its unfair and perhaps short sighted that the company moves the goal posts all too often, don't lose sight of the bigger picture:

1. As an EK F/O, you are on a better package than you were as a CRJ skipper back home.

2. You will get your wide body command 15-20 years quicker here than back home. I'm guessing you are in your early 30's? How many yanks are A330/A340/B777 skippers back home in their mid 30's?

Now put your toys back in the pram and concentrate on humping hosties, the very thing all single F/O's should be doing instead of whining on Pprune.

[Instant Hooligan]

Just to play devil's advocate,
Many of the RJ drivers were skippers making captains decisions for many thousands of hours, they are now being bypassed by longtime F/O's who just happen to have the required time above 55T.
So just a different slant maybe who is more suited to command, those who have already done it or those with medium or heavy time?
However, I do agree in the big scheme it aint that long to wait. It's just the biased implementation that irks most of the people it affects.

[Oblaaspop]

I H, I agree entirely with your slant.

As I said, it is short sighted and foolish of the powers that be (AAR) to ignore carte blanche the experience of our F/O's because their previous type was slightly smaller than someone else'.

I do (did) feel their pain to a certain degree as my neighbour that joined a month after me, upgraded a year before me JUST because he was on the Boeing and I was on the Airbus. That year he got a bigger bonus than me, 120,000 more dhs than me, higher provident fund contributions, F/J class travel for him and his family...the list goes on.

Yes I was p1ssed off hugely at the time, but do you know what....... Having been in the Left seat for the last couple of years, that all now seems a distant memory. As indeed it will for the guys shouting and banging the table now.

And before anyone laments about me ONLY having to wait 4 years to upgrade, I joined here with a few thousand hours on the A330 AND previous command experience, so would have met the revised upgrade criteria in any case.

Just food for thought chaps. Having to wait a bit longer is not the end of the world in the overall scheme of things, and will soon be forgotten..... Remember this isn't the easiest operation in the world, with a combination of fatigue and dodgy destinations an extra year or 2 in the Right will do you no harm at all.

[sheikmyarse]

Oblaaspop what the hell.. are you on a fix with this humping story?
What a level of morality and maturity for an EK captain! No surprise management treat the category like ****! People like you just deserve it.
Respect is something you have to conquer... but you are too busy humping hosties...what the hell!!
Hope you never get caught having premarital sex or sharing you flat with your hostie ..in the UAE that will open you the door for jail..habibi.
Better complaining on PPrune...

[falconeasydriver]

The biggest problem Americans face when coming here has a lot more to do with expectation, rather than the climate or airframe size etc.
This isn't the USA, its the UAE, you will need to stop thinking about things from the perspective of a westerner.
In my experience (been here a bit over a year but on and off for 7 years), the types who struggle the most are also the ones who have the expectation that things will almost be like home..mayby with a bit more heat and crazy driving. Reality check, its not, you are a second class citizen, you live in a bubble of western influence in either an apartment or villa and are surrounded on many sides by in some cases medieval attitudes.
Either adapt, leave, or don't bother coming, thats the reality. As an American you are already at a disadvantage on the basis that as a nationality you are less likely to tolerate the reality of the changes you will have to adapt too.
Am I being unfair? not from what I've seen so far.

[a747jb]

Hey guys,

Just to clear some things up about my post for the guys who originally asked the question. The gentlemen below me make a very valid point about command and I must say that if looking at it from a command sense, they are absolutely correct. I am much faster here onto a widebody than anywhere back hom. Unfortunately, in this case, I did not mean to sound like I was talking about a command. I would simply like to transfer fleets, in otherwords, a330 FO to A380 FO. However, I cannot. This transfer may even hurt my time for command, hard to say. The point is, I cannot transfer onto another fleet for a better quality of life, which to me is nearly as important if not more so than that of a command, because EK will not let Airbus drivers go to the Boeing but in rare cases, and myself, and many other rj guys, do not have the over 55 tonnes time to transfer to the A380. I was simply trying to point out that you can get stuck with a rotten quality of life here at EK at a moments notice, many rj guys had just that very thing happen. I am not arguing what I may or may not deserve based on other folks ideologies, just trying to show guys who are considering EK from an RJ position things they should and have the right to consider. For the record, in many respects, nearly all in fact, I agree fully with all the posts below mine.

[Sataybox]

Hey sheik, what's wrong with humping hosties? As long as they're female of course. But with a name like oblaspoop I wouldn't be too sure which way the aim is... And it's not just the single guys who dabble, as we all know... :p

Anyway if you're living with a hostie, the cops would already know all about it. If you make no waves, they won't care.

As for workplace morality, that's quite funny bearing in mind our employer and "management"!

Carlson, no offense but they expect a certain level of English language proficiency here; it might pay to work on your grammar if you want the job. (Disregard if you're American.)

[Oblaaspop]

OMG:eek: I didn't realise the Pope (aka Stuffmyarse) posted on these forums!

I do apologise for testing your morals your Holiness. Indeed the mere thought of 2 young, single heterosexual people having a bit of how's your father of an evening must really go against everything you stand for?

How about 2 young choir boys? More to your liking perhaps?:E

What irks me is that I wrote tons of relevant stuff and all you can do is focus on a tiny scrap of humorous nonsense just to have a poke!

As you can see from the above, its really not worth your effort as (often demonstrated) I can destroy ANYTHING you say with one blow of my tongue!

Keep em coming Arse boy

[White Knight]

As regards the 3000 hour above 55 tonne requirement for transfer to FO on 380, and indeed upgrade on 330/777, I believe this is more from an insurance requirement. Cheaper premiums and all that! MEL cost a lot of $$$$$.

[Instant Hooligan]

Maybe written english is Sheik's strong point but it clearly states "all single f/o's" should get back to humping the hosties. No where did it mention anything about extra marital activities or captains demeaning their respect by "humping the hosties" . Maybe sheik you should give up your rants even you cant make sense of them anymore.

[mensaboy]

All pilots considering EK should seek out the answers to their questions before taking the plunge. Although the average American pilot is a good guy and well educated, they struggle more with certain aspects of EK's operation and Dubai in general, than most other pilots. We all struggle with these issues but our USA colleagues arrive here ill-prepared for the reality of the situation.

It is fair to say that our American colleagues have generally led a sheltered life. This is not an indictment on them but rather the reality of the situation.

Granted, there are some great aspects to living in Dubai, such as our memberships to certain Resorts/Clubs and the minimal tax implications but everyone has to overcome the myriad of negative aspects of life in Dubai and our working conditions at EK.

The INDIVIDUAL has no recourse in a society like the UAE or a company like Emirates and this is the most difficult obstacle for American pilots to tolerate. Throw into the equation the higher expectations of western women and it is no wonder that there is such a high incidence of divorce and marital strife which will greatly magnify the negatives of Dubai.

If you are unhappy with your present 'lot in life', then Dubai and Emirates might be the best option for you. But if you are a happily married man (or woman) with a half-decent job and you are thinking that EK might be a better option, then you might want to step back and reconsider things.

I don't know what it will be, but there is definitely something that will happen here in the Middle East (perhaps even worldwide), that will dramatically detract from our present conditions. Emirates keeps announcing more and more aircraft purchases (it's quite exciting actually), but keep in mind that this is the same mentality that almost destroyed Dubai. Bigger is not always better!

Darn it all, bring on the Yanks because I prefer sitting next to them on any given flight, chatting about things that interest us. But be forewarned, upgrade timeframes are already increasing and in all likelihood they will extend to more than 7 years for new-joiners and that is not taking into considertion the possible downfall of this place.

There are storm clouds on the horizon in my opinion and if I am even partially correct, then things are going to get ugly in the next few years. I hope to be gone before the ****e hits the fan! haha

[halas]

Boy, that sounds a bit terminal Mensa. Hope you get/feel better real soon! :}

halas

[mensaboy]

What do you mean? I got life by the balls and feel great!

Apparently it is difficult for stupid people to accept reality. I am not predicting the end of the world, just that it seems improbable that the Middle East will become the Mecca of aviation in the future. If anyone thinks that coming to Dubai will result in their happiness over the next 10 years, then they are sadly mistaken.

I am here now and ejoying life, taking advantage of the good things and doing my best to tolerate the bad things yet it seems probable that these temporary perks will disappear. It is just a matter of time and hopefully that timeframe will be longer than 5 years. My goodness, Dubai was THE place to be as short as 2 years ago, now look at it!

The same people who control Dubai, control Emirates. That fact in itself should be a dire prediction for this airline.

[jackbauer]

Someone put Mensa on suicide watch, on second thoughts let him wallow in his own misery. One look at the word count in his posts tells you what an over inflated opinion he has of himself. He's not happy and he won't be happy until you're not happy too. Tw^t

[porkandbrew]

If I were american, I would keep my eyes on Virgin America. 60 more Airbuses announced at Farnborough! ME is getting very tough despite huge profits for EK last fiscal year.
pork:ok:

[Royalblue]

Virgin America????this is a big laugh...RJ captains will have to take a paycut for 5 years till they match what they are making atm. Many new Joiners are ex RJ captains that got downgraded due to recession. Better off in EK that being an undercut fo doing 30 mins roundtrips to Michigan, wisconsin etc etc. At least there is some level of respect there compare to the states... Sorry to say that but US aviation will never be the same as it used to be. I am sick an tired every day that I go to work :)... EK is a very good option for a lot of US pilots and yes 7 years is nothing. FOs in United are furloughed with 10 years of seniority and you whine for 7 year of upgrade? Even Eagle has 10-11 years to be a Ca on the 145....Cheers

[atpcliff]

Guys off the RJs were very very lucky to get a job on a widebody jet in the first place. Bet you couldnt do that jump back home. I couldnt where I come from.

In the US, things are a lot different, which is the main reason why it IS difficult for US guys going overseas.

In the US, you are hired based on minimums, which are typically Total time, Multiengine time, sometimes PIC time, sometimes turbine time.

Once they are hired, they are elligible for ANY open airframe...regardless of your background. AND, once you are hired, you moving to another aircraft or FO-->Capt are STRICTLY based on seniority, NOTHING ELSE. The ONLY way not to make Capt when your seniority is high enough (and you meet the insurance minimums), is to not bid for it, or to not make it through training.

What this means, is that guys hired at a major airline who have only flown a Beech 1900, or a King Air, or a little Citation (or a Flight Instructor, with almost all C-172 time, and a little multiengine time), can be assigned a wide-body aircraft as a new-hire, if there are open spots (this was happening at DAL the last time they hired, and has happended MANY times in the US at many different airlines). If you are on a DC-9 as an FO, you can go to directly to the 747-400 as a Captain, if your seniority is high enough.

It seems to me that many foreign flying organizations (like EK), place a lot of restrictions on who can move to, or become captain on which aircraft. I am not saying that one way is better than the other, just that the US system is different from many non-US systems.

On a similar vein, it is also difficult for Americans to adjust to living overseas, as in America things are much more standardized across the country, and they are much more sheltered. The country is so big, and it's physically separated from the other continents, so that many, many people never leave the US, except maybe to go to Cancun (which is 100% Americanized, as far as I'm concerned, which is one of the reasons why I hate Cancun).

I know two prevous US-based families that went to EK. One HATED it and quit right away, and the other likes it a lot. Guess which one was more flexible, and adoptable.

cliff
LFW
PS-When my CEO (the wife) told her friends and co-workers that she was taking the kids on vacation to Africa, almost everyone was shocked beyond belief. Typical.

[nolimitholdem]

Better off in EK that being an undercut fo doing 30 mins roundtrips to Michigan, wisconsin etc etc. At least there is some level of respect there compare to the states...

if you honestly believe you will receive more respect as a pilot in Emirates than you did in the US you have absolutely no clue, zero, about the reality of working for Emirates. Do not confuse money with respect. You will receive more money at Emirates perhaps, mainly due to the fact there is no income tax (yet) but make no mistake every effort is made to calculate to the DIRHAM what the least amount is they can pay and still keep their employees. You will be regarded with complete contempt that will vary from hypocritically trying to hide it behind flowery words, to thinly veiled, to outright openly expressed.

Don't kid yourself about respect. As a pilot you are a barely-tolerated evil that somehow the company manages to turn a profit in spite of. It doesn't help that not a single manager seems to actually DO the job they administrate. Combined with the petty class envy that pervades the culture it's a deadly combination. If a couple of the clowns from EGHQ actually tried to work some of the pilot rosters of the last year they might tone down the hate a little, right quick.

I totally agree with mensa about the decline of Emirates, which I think is only lagging the parallel decline of its host city. It's the equivalent of the housing and market bubbles...spectacular growth followed by spectacular retrench. The ever-increasing shrillness of the denial of this only serves this belief. But hey nothing that goes up can ever go down, right all you savvy property investors? :rolleyes:

I say the original poster SHOULD join...at the very least it would give him a new appreciation for the good old US of A, the odd time he can string enough days together to go home...

[leadingedge12]

Give up 12 years seniority at a union protected company for overseas work? You must really hate where you work to even think about that move.

[CAVnotOK]

Whilst I agree with most things posted in regard to EK and Dubai, I really don't think that the success of Emirates has anything to do with the success (or failure) of Dubai.

Emirates has really built its success purely using Dubai as a Hub connecting passengers to wherever they want to go in the world. True, they have tried to market Dubai in a massive way with many thousands of free hotel rooms etc, but many people stay for 2 or 3 days just to have a "look".

I would be interested in finding out the average length of stay in Dubai for passengers inbound to Dubai. I would say that an overwhelming percentage of EK passengers are transit, and nothing else.

Dubai needs EK, and EK really only needs DXB Int'l.

Cav.

[Payscale]

I think you are wrong. EK and Dubai are two sides of the same coin.
Emirates would not have had it success if it wasnt in Dubai.
The owners of the Airline are also the rules of Dubai. Thats a key to success. I know we compete on equal terms, or so they insist, with other operators, but those are very good terms. Airport tax in DXB is a fraction of other hubs, hence EK can sell cheaper tickets. Labor cost are a fraction of other comparable airlines. Im not talking about pilot salaries, but the whole work force.
Just imagine they move the whole operation to Rome (i think they need a new national carrier). Do you honestly think EK would do as well as in DXB?

[jetzdrvr]

rj can't jump to a heavy in the US???? Where did you get your facts from? There are several guys I know personally flying a heavy at Fedex that used to be rj drivers.

Not to mention some who went on to fly 747s at some of the small cargo operators.

[CAVnotOK]

Payscale,

I agree with the points you make, and a lot of EK's success definately comes from it's very low cost base.

However, Dubai's central geographical location also gives them access to almost every market globally.

My main point is that Emirates doesn't require Dubai to thrive as a city for them to continue their success as an airline. Depending of course on how the owners play their cards.

Cav.

[Payscale]

CAK
Got your point and agree. As long as the government of Dubai grants them the same operating conditions as previous, as they obviously will since...hmmm. they are the government, whey will continue to prosper. I am amazed that they can get financing for all these aircraft.

I didnt know that the previously mentioned RJ guys could start as FOs on heavy iron with FedEx. I would have expected them to start as relief/second officer. Anyway... good on them mate :)

[MachAF]

Question about the retirement:

It says 12% of pay is matched and you are required to contribute 5%. Is the 12% starting right away? Or is 12% after year 7?

Also when do they change the contract (if you want to call it that)? Anytime they want or once a year in January?

Thanks

[nolimitholdem]

MachAF,

The EK cheerleaders on here will be quick to point out that the worthless "contract" you signed contains enough weasel language to allow EK to change the terms as you may understand them at their discretion if their "needs" dictate. The place is all about vagueness and deception.

Their "needs" strangely always seem to involve taking, reducing, or restricting something away you once enjoyed.

So no, these changes don't come at any set time, they come out as memos on an irregular basis. For example the changing of productivity (overtime) thresholds from 78 to 92 hours/month. That came out as a weasel-speak letter.

You join on one set of conditions, you are handed another. Please do get used to the idea if you plan on applying.

[Instant Hooligan]

Mach,
The provident(retirement) fund consists of 3 accounts. A account, the one EK contributes the 12% into from the day you join. B account, the one you contribute 5% of your base salary into(mandatory) and then a C account, which is a voluntary only account which you contribute to with no matching from the company, a savings plan if you wish.

Also note that company 12% is on base salary and does not include flying pay.

Here's where the 7 years comes into action. The A account will not be fully vested until 7 years, after 5 years I think you get 75% of its value and for time before that a ratio of your monthly salary x the number of years of service.
There are more in depth details but that's the jist of it.

[ekpilot]

Always remember that you leaving a country where laws mean kinda something and coming to the wild wild Middle East where laws are there just to say they have laws. Even with a bullet proof contract they will find a way to screw you. Come on just be aware of what you will have to live with from now on. Up to until 4 years ago it was not so obvious. Now it is right in your face every day. Dubai and the Middle East is not what you want it to be. It is what it is and what it is famous for. Do your researches in other places than aviation forums and you will find your answer. If you are willing to live day by day as many people live around the world ( and that's called survival ) well come and join the club as an expat and a mercenary where all you have to think about is you, you and you. You can earn a decent amount of money as a Captain. As a F/O, personally I would have not survived in these conditions. Remember that it is just a job. Not more. If you are up for the none sense of this place come along boy! If are not don't come and cry when you will have been screwed many times like all of us here. My buckets are filling up. Both of them...

Keep Discovering:ok:

[MachAF]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Whats Emirates training program like? PC's every 6 months or is it more like AQP? Jeopardy events?

Thanks

[Northbeach]

Carlsonclan,

Do you have any previous international living experience? How about your immediate family, has your spouse ever lived overseas? Moving to the Middle East is not like changing domiciles and moving from Texas to California; except hotter, the population speaks a different language, wears pajamas and those “funny rag things on their head”.

Americans have many strengths and enviable qualities. Unfortunately, many Americans (U.S. Citizen not resident of North, Central or South America) are ill prepared to flourish overseas. Sometimes our mindset works against us.For example in the U.S.A. there is one system of justice for people (not claiming it is perfect-I know $ talks). If you get into a traffic accident with somebody in the U.S. the justice system does not give you an advantage because you are a citizen and the other party is not. You cannot claim (for example) that the other party is at fault because they are a foreigner. In the Middle East the justice system is completely stacked in favor of the national, by structure.

Being an American you have the expectation of “equal representation under the Law”. Well, it is not so in the Middle East. As an American you may want to argue with me about the superiority of our system-in the Middle East they don’t care about you, your system, or your expectations.We are not all exactly alike, and really wanting the same things only separated by colour and language.

As an American many of our basic assumptions about how things work prove to be invalid when dealing with the Middle East. “Look ‘em right in the eye”, “give them a firm handshake” “tell ‘em what you really think” “don’t beat around the bush, get to the point” “talk loudly and clearly and speak your mind” may all work just fine in Texas but may not always produce the results you want in the Middle East.

In the U.S.A. you probably have a Union and a contract. It’s not perfect but what is discussed and written down is pretty much law. No so in the Middle East; “my friend you have misunderstood me”. Trade unions as you recognize them are illegal.

It is not that there are a “few” different things, most things are different-really different. Many if not most of your daily assumptions are no longer valid. Such a move rocks your foundations, many "Americans" crack under the onslaught.

Living in the Middle East CAN be a great experience. In fact it can be the highlight of a lifetime. But many Americans struggle and fail because they are unable to leave “America” behind. We make the mistake of constantly comparing the culture to the “good ‘ol U.S.A.” and are unable or unwilling to make the changes necessary to adapt successfully. We “reek” our “cultural superiority” and it pisses people off BIG time.

I have been gone from the Middle East for many years now. For me it was wonderful, and I would not trade that experience for 10 years of seniority at my airline. But, it is not for everyone. Unfortunately, more Americans seem to fail and come home bitter and resentful after moving to the Middle East than those who love it.

To me the keys to success would include; adaptability, humility, commitment to succeed, realistic expectations and willingness to mentally and emotionally leave the U.S.A. behind. Doing so does not make you a bad U.S. Citizen; you are not committing treason but beginning to lay the foundation for a successful transition.

Such changes are not easy to make, and your resolve will be severely tested. Americans fail for many reasons including trying to set up “little Americas” (clubs, social groups, schools and living compounds where things are “like home” and we can all agree about the “dumb locals” who “smell bad” and “stupid this and that”). We also fail because we are too proud and not willing to learn the language or history nor are we willing listen and learn why things are the way they are.

Sometimes we Americans are too quick to open our mouths and slow to listen with the ears. We react and get frustrated and angry with the present circumstances start looking forward to the time when we “go home” and get out of this “$%* hole. It’s not for everybody! The less prepared you are, the more unrealistic your expectations the more likely you will be miserable. Will it work for you? Possibly.........................................

If nothing else it will probably teach you to love the United States in ways you cannot imagine now.

Respectfully,

Northbeach

[411A]

Northbeach has many valuable assessments about living and working in the middle east, and...my thirty years plus in the area find his comments spot on.
Americans intending on working in the middle east should read and understand Northbeach's comments very carefully.

I would also add...join whatever airline you desire as a direct entry Captain...it makes life far more rewarding.
Does this annoy the First Officers already there?
Yes, but they will get over it.
If they don't?
Why would you care?:bored:

[airbus757]

Once again 411A is adding "fuel" to the fire.

Don't get mad...

7

[planesmack]

I have been in the Middle East for a total of about 12 years. I completely agree with Northbeach. TRUE TOLERANCE is the key. I love the US but I also love living in the UAE.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

1.I didnt know that the previously mentioned RJ guys could start as FOs on heavy iron with FedEx. I would have expected them to start as relief/second officer. Anyway... good on them mate
Yes. Things are sometimes a LOT different between the US and the rest of the world. There are, virtually, NO SOs or Relief Officers in the US. Every airline hires guys as an FO, and then they move to Capt when they have the seniority (a few, usually smaller and crappier airlines sometimes are forced to hire DECs...NOT happening at Delta, American, FedEx, etc.).
Some airlines type all their new FOs (Compass, for example), and/or on certain airframes (Atlas on the 747-400s) the FOs get typed right away, so they can act as the Relief Capt (1 Capt, 2 typed FOs on a leg).

2. Just read of interesting EK developments with regards to US pilots...info coming from "Open Houses" in the US. They are giving a good representation of the "bad stuff", it seems, from attendee comments. EK is also saying they are in GREAT NEED OF PILOTS...admitting it right out in the open.
There is an MD-11? sim in Atlanta, I believe it was. EK told the attendees that ANYONE that meets the minimums can come and do a sim assesment. That is ALL that was said about the sim.
I THINK what that means is that if you meet the mins, and you pass the assesment, then they will give you an interview....so that guys like me (never have been on the shortlist in over two years) could do the sim, pass, and have an interview...whereas if we sit around waiting we might never get the call.
Also, I am ASSUMING that if you pass this ATL sim assesment, none is needed during your DXB interview.
IF this is the purpose of the sim assesment, it seems like a good idea to me.

Comments welcome!

Have a Nice Day!

cliff
LFW

[Wizofoz]

atp,

Just in terms of the US being different, are you aware it is about the only jurisdiction in the world where you can have F/Os that do NOT have type ratings?

[atpcliff]

yes...forgot about that.....now ALL Fos get type ratings in US...just called "FO Type rating" for normal SIC FOs. In the above examples the FOs were getting ATP PIC Type ratings and able to act as Capt.

The "Relief Pilots"...they are FOs and only need Frozen ATPL???? They get a PIC Type Rating (Group 1). Is that correct?

Thanx!
cliff
LFW

[767200]

Not true. Implemented a while back (couple of years) so now all F/Os flying anything above 12,500Lbs have Second in Command type Ratings on their licenses.

[Brindabella]

Wizofoz

Typical Australian parochial attitude. You know nothing of the US Part 121 FO training requirements. It sh!ts all over Australia's "we are worlds best practice" BS FO training.

You couldn't resist putting the boot in to the US system could you, on a completely unrelated thread? Pathetic.

[Wizofoz]

Geez Brindy, was that really necessary?

I simply pointed out (and was, by others at least, politley informed my information was out of date) that most places require a type rating for FOs. The US used to be one of the few places that didn't, but apparently they now do. Good thing, though "Second in command" type ratings sound a lot like the old "Second class endorsement" you used to get in Aus.

Fact is I have much more experience operating under JCAB, JAR and UAE GCAA rules than I do Aussie these days, and under all of these, FOs recieve a full type rating.

Not defending the Aussie system at all as, these days, I don't really know what the Aussie system IS.

Any particular reason you felt the need to rip my head off?

[Instant Hooligan]

The training and the required check flight given to US f/o's in 121 airline ops prior to them being allowed on the line was of equivalent standard to any type ride which was endorsed on ones licence. It was ICAO that asked the FAA to bring "into line" the type licence endorsement and was happy with the training already given to allow only a submission of paperwork to add the type to the licence.
So even by ICAO standards it would appear that "non licence endorsed" f/o's were already trained to the required SIC standard.
Does it make you a better, safer, more accomplished pilot if you have the words written on the licence?

[Wizofoz]

We are getting a little derailed here!

No IH it doesn't and I didn't say it did.

atpcliff made a point that certain US airlines "Typed" their FOs while others didn't, so it obviously made a difference in HIS mind. I simply pointed out that some airlines "Typing" their FOs didn't make America different (which, I assumed, was the intent of his statement) but, rather, the fact that in the past most airlines DIDN'T give formal type ratings was what made their system unique.

Does the word "Context" mean anything to you?

Also, atp, the use of SOs and "Cruise FOs" (same thing) is largely confined to Australia and Hong Kong. Most places have, at a minimum, two Type Rated FOs on the flight deck at any time, and at EK we usually have 4 man crews consisting of two Captains and two FOs.

What was being pointed out to you was that, for Aircraft utilising an F/E, usual practice in the States was for that position to be filled by a Pilot, usually refered to as the S/O.

Most other places had dedicated F/Es, usually with a maintenence background.

[Instant Hooligan]

I'll leave it to somebody else to correct you wiz it really aint worth my time. I'll also take a stab at explaining why you think people "have a go" at you. It's because your missives APPEAR to come across as arrogant. Your view may differ.

[fatbus]

OK hold your d,,k's and see who is bigger. Children to your room's

[Oblaaspop]

Of course you are all wrong..... Clearly its the British ATPL and type ratings which are the toughest/best/most expensive and exclusive in the world!!:E:E:E

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GCAA doesn't give out a "full" type rating either to the FO's. It's a P2 type rating, which is the same as an SIC type rating from the FAA.

[Wizofoz]

Yes Fred, That's right.

I wasn't aware that the FAA had introduced the SIC rating. FOs on smaller, two crew aircraft still don't require a type rating, though soon will, largely in the wake of the Colegen DH-8 crash.

I'll also take a stab at explaining why you think people "have a go" at you. It's because your missives APPEAR to come across as arrogant.

Entirerly possible. Written English can be very imprecise when it comes to conveying intent rather than just information,as any flame war on the internet will show you. I don't claim any great gift wrt communication.

But could Brindibillas response be taken as anythiong but hostile towards what was a simple (but, as it turns out, partially incorrect) statement, the intended recipient of which took in the spirit it was intended?

[pilotguy1222]

It still seems most of the negative people come out on the forums, but I still wanted to say 'thank you' for additional information.

The only advice I would have as someone looking into EK (job fair ATL in AUG for me) is to talk to any friends you have at EK. I try to ask questions as they come up.

I often hear that 'it is not home, but we are enjoying it'. I find that I am a very adaptable person, so I will continue to hope for the best, but expect the worst. The middle ground should not be disappointing then.

[Geebz]

You guys need to get over the whole WB captain mentality. IT is NOT the Holy Grail in this business. Time off is.

Our upgrade times in America take a lot longer for a number of reasons the most of which is fewer WB aircraft and a more mature market (lower growth rates). But that all gets offset by retirement booms, of which 4 major airlines will be experiencing in the mid to latter part of this decade.

But if pay is your main driver, 737 skippers in the US make more than WB in the ME. I use to fly in the M.E. and gave it up years ago to put my time in at a US major. Sure it was hard at first, low pay, crappy schedules out of NYC, etc. But it is now paying off. My seniority can hold a jr capt position, a medium seniority WB FO, or a sr NB FO slot. As a jr Capt, I only got 12 days off per month (the minimum by US standards). As a sr NB fo, I get 18-21 days off per month, not including vacation, and home eve night if I want. If I want to make as much as I was as a capt, I just fly a few extra days. Otherwise I get by quite handsomely on my FO salary without flying any overtime.

Guys in the ME and India love to poke at the US and say what a joke it is to be a pilot there. I have worked as a pilot in Europe, M.E, and Asia. Hands down the US is the best place to work. I could care less about flying all night in a WB. I did that for 2000 hrs and after the first 300 the honeymoon was over. For me it's all about days off (and not spending those days off catching up on sleep/ nod clock issues).

If you plan to leave Eagle, IMO, you should shoot for a US major. 40% of the CAL/ UAL list and nearly the same amount of the DAL list will retire in the next 10 yrs. Same goes for USAir and even more will retire at AMR. The future is bright for hiring in the US it may just take a few years for the recruitment to gain any traction. Certainly very little will happen before 2012/13.

Any country other than your own can take years to grow into. The M.E. is
especially hard for yanks. Not as hard for Europeans because it's a much, much shorter trip home for them. And life in their countries is generally too expensive anyway, so they see value in living abroad. But life for you will be condsiderably more costly than in the US, even if tax free. And the additional pay is not as relevant as some suggest. At the end of the day it's what you SAVE, not what you make. That said, you'll be so tired working for EK, there won't be much time to spend what you're making... so perhaps you will save more that way.

3 yr upgrade, 7, 10, 12 yr upgrade. Who cares? QOL trumps seat and equipment every time. Btw, we have many guys at my airline who made WB commander in the 8-12 yr time frame. Heck, I made 737 skipper in 3. It's all about timing (the boom) and a while lotta' luck.

All that said, I completely agree with what NorthBeach wrote. He is a very eloquent writer and I couldn't have said it better myself.

I enjoyed my time living in the M.E., just as I enjoyed living in 4 other regions outside America. The cultural differences were never really an issue for me and I made it a point to minimize socializing with other Americans so as to blend in and learn the locals. But for me it all boiled down to QOL. And that Is something the pilot groups of other nations simpy don't fully grasp yet. The US
Carriers offer the most in terms of days off, way more. Yet we all fly the same number of hours annually. That is something that has been negotiated through years of hard work by the labor unions. Of course, you have to put in the time to build seniority to get those days off but 5, even 10, yrs goes but in a snap.
Suddenly you look back one day and see the fruits of your decisions.