Hong Kong Airlines: Return Of The Jedi

[PositiveCLB]

Hong Kong Airlines signs MOU for 15 A350s and 10 more A330s
Carrier becomes latest customer for all-new A350 XWB
Farnborough, 20 July 2010

Hong Kong Airlines has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Airbus to acquire 15 A350 XWBs and 10 more A330-200s. Under the terms of the agreement, the airline is converting 15 existing A330 orders to A350 XWBs and placing an additional order for 10 A330-200s. The MOU was signed at the Farnborough International Airshow today.

Deliveries of the additional A330-200s will begin in 2012, with the first A350 XWB arriving in 2018. The aircraft will be operated across a long haul network currently being developed by the airline to link Hong Kong with a wide range of destinations in Europe and North America.

"Our latest commitment underscores our ambition to develop an extensive long haul network offering world class service," said Yang Jian Hong, President, Hong Kong Airlines. "The super-efficient A330-200 is the perfect platform for us to develop these services, while the A350 XWB will become our new flagship towards the end of this decade."

"We are extremely pleased that Hong Kong Airlines has reaffirmed its commitment to Airbus aircraft for its future long haul fleet," said John Leahy, Airbus Chief Operating Officer, Customers. "With the A330 and the A350 XWB, the carrier will be operating the cleanest, most efficient aircraft available in the mid-size widebody market now and in the future."

Established in 2006, Hong Kong Airlines operates a full service Asian network to which it recently added its first long haul service to Europe. Upon confirmation of today's MOU, the carrier's widebody orders with Airbus will comprise 15 A350 XWBs and 18 A330s. The carrier also has 30 single aisle A320 aircraft on firm order for future delivery.

The A330 is one of the most widely used widebody aircraft in service today. To date, Airbus has won more than 1,000 orders for the various versions of the aircraft. More than 700 A330s have already been delivered and the aircraft is currently flying with over 80 airlines worldwide.

The A350 XWB Family is an all-new product line seating between 270 and 350 passengers in typical three-class layouts. Scheduled for first entry-into-service in 2013, it is already one of most successful aircraft programmes ever, with over 530 firm orders already received from 34 customers worldwide.

"salted fish coming back alive.." :}

[mass debator]

Guarantee you the singa snakes and their sh!thouse mates won't be around to see them.

[sandworm]

Hi all! I would really appreciate it if anyone can share about the salary package for A330 FO.

Thanks!

[K3nnyboy]

that's interesting.......cos they've got 50 a/c on firm order already? Including some more 737-800??

[AAIGUY]

Lots of letters of interest or MOU's... very few firm orders.

[bila]

No matter what said and done, HKA expanding and is still providing opportunities for pilots who need a job be it with or without jet time or like those from PAL ( shafted by their national carrier). :ok:
That probably includes those who may not have made it at CX/KA or elsewhere. ;)

[Captain Dart]

...and those who have made it into CX but who are frustrated at the lack of progression towards Command.

This might get interesting.

[clear.right]

because leaving CX or KA to go to HKA would be a great idea.......
Oasis anyone...

[A. Le Rhone]

YES clear.right, perhaps leaving CX/KA might just be a VERY good idea. Don't be foolish enough to mistake Oasis and HKA/Hainan group as being one in the same.

Admittedly the current HKA mismanagement will need to change dramatically to ensure the long-term survival of the airline however they have MUCH deeper pockets than Oasis ever had.

Cathay since inception have either simply bought-out new entrants (i.e. the very first Hong Kong Airways and Air Hong Kong and Dragonair) or smothered the opposition by flooding routes with extra capacity until that opposition dies (Oasis). They are trying it on already with extra Moscow services trying to kill HKA.

However HKA is a very different beast. Once they rid themselves of foolish Singaporean flt ops management and perhaps improve the package financially they will be flooded with applications from disgruntled CX and KA guys, particularly FO's or anybody wanting to go onto a base. KA is now a career deadwater; a small thorn in CX's side that will wither on the vine in time. CX have stopped KA flying to Tokyo and Bangkok and closed the entire freight operation. With that slow death of KA will go the careers of many pilots. Why not leave now and catch the wave with the likes of HKA or Emirates?

CX seem to have bogged-down since the mid 1990's. They are defensive and not offensive. They are no longer innovative and myopic when it comes to expansion. A350's/787's order? Big Deal -they are just A330 replacements. Where are the A380's. Where are the services to Honolulu, Seattle, South America, secondary Euro destinations etc. Where are the business-jet feeder services for high net worth First Class pax? Where are the limo city pick-ups and in flight bars? Why are the interiors of the aircraft so tatty and the Flight Attendants so indifferent? The check-in staff in HK are just awful, rude and a very poor public face of the company.

So unless CX does something really dramatic it too will wither and die. It needs to re-invent itself quickly. The 'security' of career at CX if that is what you wish for is perhaps a smokescreen. And what about job enjoyment, workplace happiness and the feeling of being appreciated by management? Hardly highlights any longer of a career at CX.

HKA will not go away or be subverted. It's a different game this time and CX don't get it. For pilots HKA offers DEC and very rapid command for F/O's. They also offer bases in a number of European/Australian and American cities or even HK should you wish!

They are not perfect by any means and improvements must be made but yes, leaving KA or CX may just not be such a weird idea.

[Sqwak7700]

because leaving CX or KA to go to HKA would be a great idea.......
Oasis anyone...

Actually, it was. Those guys left, and were then hired as direct entry captains. So technically, it is a quicker path to the left seat than staying. :ok:

[MD330]

They are not perfect by any means and improvements must be made but yes, leaving KA or CX may just not be such a weird idea.


Rightfully said... Heard KA "training and checker" has already joined HKA on the A330 fleet! :ok:

Happy landings!

[hongkongfooey]

Le rhone, most of your post is ( unfortunately ) spot on, except :

For pilots HKA offers DEC and very rapid command for F/O's
Yes, I know people that were offered rapid commands at HKA, not many pilots consider 3-4 years to be rapid. HKA/Hainan ( read SE Asia forum ) are a pack of :mad: liars, and that was before singa snakes, I doubt anyone will trust them again, except maybe F/Os that are offered DEC

They also offer bases in a number of European/Australian and American cities or even HK should you wish!

Bases only useful to people that can live in the aforementioned countries, and to live in Australia on HKA wages and Australian tax, well, you would be better off on unemployment benefits, at least then you would get decent medical :}

however they have MUCH deeper pockets than Oasis ever had
Yes, well its easy to have deep pockets when you have government handouts and don't pay your airport charges.

Rightfully said... Heard KA "training and checker" has already joined HKA on the A330 fleet
Absolute BS to my knowledge, although maybe one of the sacked KA guys has gone there. No TIRE in his right mind would leave KA for HKA, for what ? a 50% paycut, crap staff travel, crap medical, no 13th month etc etc etc oh, and no future :ouch:

[SlimShadey]

Mate,

Absolute BS to my knowledge, although maybe one of the sacked KA guys has gone there. No TIRE in his right mind would leave KA for HKA, for what ? a 50% paycut, crap staff travel, crap medical, no 13th month etc etc etc oh, and no future

I see you are still dwelling in soreness. You'd probably wanna verify yr facts and figures before posting outdated albeit inaccurate information. :=

not many pilots consider 3-4 years to be rapid

You must be number 200 or so in the queue for a KA command? At the current rate of 4-8 a year, you're probably not even close to it at retirement. :D

Bases only useful to people that can live in the aforementioned countries, and to live in Australia on HKA wages and Australian tax, well, you would be better off on unemployment benefits, at least then you would get decent medical

Who wants to be based in a ****hole like Australia? That's the reason why so many of you are here, ain't it?

BTW, you the one who timed/filmed Capts going for his "pee" break?

[clear.right]

Why not leave now and catch the wave with the likes of HKA or Emirates?
Hahahahahahaha! That is quite a stretch to compare these two companies!

[A. Le Rhone]

Who's comparing?

If you want a quick command these are the places where they will be eventuating. Even before they ordered 30 777's EK was after 700+ pilots in the next 18 months. And HKA with 25 A330/350 and A320's on order will need DEC's and quickly, although they will have to improve their overall package in this market with a dwindling supply of pilots if they are not going to ground aircraft.

It's almost always the pilots who get in early in a booming airline who do well.

If you are not one to take risks and prefer the feeling of 'security' stay right where you are. Just don't go around in 5 years moaning that "X has been a Captain with Y Airlines for 3 years and I am still an FO at 40 years of age with little prospect for upgrade in the next 10 years".

Some have the nouse/cohones to take the risk others are more comfortable with 'the devil they know' even if they hate that devil. Horses for courses.

[BBN RADAR]

Well said!

[hongkongfooey]

Slim, you really are full of 5hit.

A KA F/O on the house purchase scheme earns considerably more than a HKA/HKE Captain, unless the Captains I know at these 2 airlines are underquoting their pay. Therefore a KA TIRE would be on close to twice as much as a HKA/HKE Captain.

Australia must be a 5hithole, why else would so many from this part of the world be trying to get there ? Thats right, because they have turned this place into a polluted sh!thole and now want to do it to our country. You should be very proud of this laughing stock of a place, driven by money and little else. If it was'nt for the big wages ( sorry if you are missing out on those ) this place would be a ghost town.

Less than a 100 to a command, tool.

And no, I am not the one who timed the Captain taking a 40 min break in the fwd galley chatting up CC.

[Chingchung]

who is Jedi?

[PositiveCLB]

hahahaha...

So now we all know that if you're a Capt taking a pee break in KA, you risk being filmed and timed by your fooking First Officer? That's bloody anal.. Good luck to you guys and thank you for flying Dr@gonair...!

:}:}:}:}:}

[Jamie J]

Rhone,

Interesting posts.
You sound optimistic for HKA which suggests to me that you haven't been there very long or you're management?
CX:
Your problem with CX seems to be their poor service and lack of ambition. IMHO CX has a bright future; it is well run compared to it's Chinese competition, Air China has a vested interest and the region's market will continue to expand. To suggest that CX will "wither and die" and job security is a "smokescreen" is a bit far fetched isn't it?

DK:
It makes no sense for CX to cause the "slow death of DK". DK will be recruiting soon and there is a lot of talk of pilots from HKA/HKE applying. Many have gone before and why wouldn't they? DK FO's earn more than HKA/HKE Capts. But, as you say, "what about job enjoyment, workplace happiness and the feeling of being appreciated by management?". Do you really think this is better at HKA? Have you not spoken to any of the HKA pilots who have been lied to (especially over quick command upgrades, which you keep mentioning) got fired or resigned in the last few years?:eek:

HKA:
As you say yourself;

"Admittedly the current HKA mismanagement will need to change dramatically to ensure the long-term survival of the airline".
It will survive thanks to Hainan money but the mismangment will continue and that is what makes working there so bad.

"they will have to improve their overall package in this market with a dwindling supply of pilots if they are not going to ground aircraft".
They have already cancelled flights and it is the pax and the crew who are suffering as a result.:ugh:

"Once they rid themselves of foolish Singaporean flt ops management and perhaps improve the package financially they will be flooded with applications from disgruntled CX and KA guys".
So far: No sign of the Singas going. A few SO CX guys came but most via Oasis so they had little choice! I don't know of any from DK. The only reason to come would be the hope of an earlier command or other promotion with a plan to move on to a proper functioning airline after a couple of years (paying off the big bond?). Certainly not for the money, the T&Cs (which have been constantly changed at the management's whim) the training standards, the horrible overnight hotels, the lack of organisation, the lack of communication, the........

[Sue Ridgepipe]

"Admittedly the current HKA mismanagement will need to change dramatically to ensure the long-term survival of the airline".
It will survive thanks to Hainan money but the mismangment will continue and that is what makes working there so bad.

Looks like nothing's changed in the (mis)management department. The morning A330 service to PEK was cancelled yet again today. And this after yesterday's flight was downgraded to a B737 (and it departed over 2 hours late) whilst there was an A330 parked against the fence. No crew perhaps?

[QAR]

Does any one currently on the 330 know what is the T&C..

1.take home pay
2.training period
3.Annual leave

etc...

Any input is much appreciate..

[khomekuh]

I worked two years for HKA. It's rubbish! The correct name is : HONG KONG AIRLIES ! Bad tricky management! A mafia of singaporeans ! Liars vampires. They make a lot of promises and then they try to suck your blood!
Don't trust 'em !

[Airmax]

Can you be more specific on your bad experiences there? Did you have any problems with your salary? Thank you

[QAR]

KOMEKUK..

Can U explain what you mean...as this can help me decide..

If you can give me some details..much appreciated.

[Jamie J]

There is some useful info in thread "Demise of Hong Kong Airlines" - there are also a lot of insults and ranting from some of the many pilots who were sacked last year or lied to over promised upgrades or commuter contracts that never happened!

Try pages 43 and 45 for a start. The info is a bit old but mostly still true.

For an idea of the Chinese management style see; Punishment for not reciting "apothegm" (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/374711-punishment-not-reciting-apothegm.html)

I met 2 pilots recently who have joined HKA and they are really regretting their decision. They were complaining that everything is badly organised. No information, no help with HKCAD exams, no time for finding accommodation after their 2 weeks in a cheap hotel finishes (they were surprised how expensive rent is in HK), sim sessions in PEK cancelled, hotel in PEK not booked, no uniform, pay for your own medical etc etc.

The other problem they've found is that most pay is duty pay. So no flying = very low basic pay. Until HKA has a stable fleet, stable routes and stable pilot numbers the flying hours will, by necessity, be very low.

[Capt Vertigo]

I met 2 pilots recently who have joined HKA and they are really regretting their decision. They were complaining that everything is badly organised. No information, no help with HKCAD exams, no time for finding accommodation after their 2 weeks in a cheap hotel finishes (they were surprised how expensive rent is in HK), sim sessions in PEK cancelled, hotel in PEK not booked, no uniform, pay for your own medical etc etc.

Jamie
You are in the loop as it seem to be. Big mess... is what you mean? :rolleyes:
The rumour of massive resignation of management and Hainan taking over soon. :ugh:

Very sad for KA and CX prospects!

Safe landings!

[hongkongfooey]

yesterday's flight was downgraded to a B737 (and it departed over 2 hours late) whilst there was an A330 parked against the fence. No crew perhaps

Sew, have it on good authority HKA are hurting severely with the 330, apparently they thought the 5hit load factors they had on the 737 would suddenly improve when putting an a/c that is twice as big on the same route ;) The downgrade you mention would simply be to try and lose less money, I seriously doubt Hainan have as much spare cash as the snakes at HKA ( past and present ) would have us believe. ( 12 months ago they could'nt pay there airport fees and had a massive hand out from the government )

[Al E. Vator]

They have George Soros behind them as well as Hainan group.

They are not short of a dollar or two.

Spending some of this money replacing allegedly inept Flight Ops staff might be a good start,

[doubledeckera380]

All of you are correct. For the time being there is only around 10 pilots for their A332 fleet. They ven dont have enough pilots to bring back the 332 freighter.

Brand new cargo sitting on the toulouse tarmac with no pilots, wot a joke.

did you know that their crew traing in syx, and they were given a boarding house like accommodation, filty and dirty.

oh another joke, flew to ICN, U/S PA, no go item, KAL i got it, but pay ur outstanding bills b4 u even depart.

oh get a load of this, alt for zbaa is zbtj, however no contract or GHA in zbtj if it gets divert there. hahaha load of joke.

agree
mafia sings and triads chinese = innocent employees

[changi.prison]

posted on the "demise" thread, but valid here...



Facts
Captain Salary 65,000
Co-Pilot 45,000
* included in this amount is 15,000 which may or not be paid at company discretion

If you love minimum rest trip away from home; you will Love HKA.

Come to work for HKA if you love the following.
If you like last minute roster changes
Low salary
High living cost.
Uncertainty, and contract changes without consultation with the pilot group
A company that has made it policy not to communicate with pilots on contractual or matters about terms and conditions
Management that are so childish they have fist fights in the office more than once
Your annual leave will only be approved 3 weeks before you get it. You can never apply for something 6 months or even 2 months in advance. If you try to request annual leave off 12 months in advance for your brother wedding it will be impossible.
Your 401k (retirement savings) are less that 5% salary Other airlines are 15 to 18%
If you take sick leave you get penilized. This encourages people to work sick and spread disease and even worse operate when ill..
You do not get extra money to work on your days off.
You do not get paid to work public holiday, and do not get even an extra day off if you do
Medical is really not good for anything.
No schooling, and some of the highest primary and secondary school fees in the world
No housing allowance and rents are at all time high in Hong Kong
The company has no master plan. No direction
Load factor to Moscow is very low, can not be sustained.
Money losses are huge
Obvious bad management decisions are being made and we just shake our head in disbelief
Annual leave 1/2 that of most airlines
A company that has many court cases against them, and has lost many previously
You will always be late, and forced to extend duty.
If the arriving aircraft is late you will not be advised prior to leaving home for duty, you find out after sign on that the aircraft is running 3 hours late
Long haul roster the worst I have seen in my life
A company so disorganized that is could not even foresee the future pilot requirements for training. Now aircraft are parked against the fence
Even type rated pilots will be highly bonded
No loss of licence insurance
Poor support and assistance at outports. You’re on your own. One positive though. That festering puss of a human called R.Lim is gone and the company can only be better without him. Unfortunately the damage that he and his slime ball team have done to the company and its image in the pilot community will take a decade to repair.

Still want to come to HKA? Before making the move come to Hong Kong see the rents at 30,000 a month, and read all this info which is still valid. The company is sub-standard, and the management are making no steps to listen to pilot suggestions on how to improve morale and conditions. Do you really want to associate yourself with that? You can do better. Good luck

[hongkongfooey]

Changi is right, and most of the posters on " demise of HKA " have moved on to bigger and better things and lots even got to go home ( huge bonus ), so do not believe the BS from a few idiots that say we are all bitter and twisted, we are just trying to help others from making the same stupid decision we did.

[Leaving HKA]

Haven't looked back to this thread for awhile.
Fooeys right. I got to leave an fly at larger airline in country with better air.

I'm not mad @ HKA anymore.

I'm mad at myself at believing the hype and joining.

Read everything and if you choose to join,
It's your own fault.
It was mine.

[japanam]

For those that have an interest, I guess this is the current hiring scene at HKA.

Received the following on 26 August 2010

Dear ****,

The attached application forms can be typed directly into and you only have to complete pages 1 to 7; the rest are auto-filled. They must be completed fully and accurately as they are also intended for your licence application.

If you have electronic signature, you may affix it to pages 9 to 17 where required but leave the rest of the spaces as they are.

Use page 8 as the check list for the documents you need to attach and tick the boxes of the documents attached. All documents must be attached before CAD will process your request for licence conversion. In the event you no longer have your ATPL results, kindly use the sample letter for your authorities to complete for certification purposes.

Claim only whole hours (rounded down) and not the minutes to avoid error.

Owing to overwhelming response, the processing of your application will take about 21 working days to process. You should contact us again if you do not hear from us after that period.

Kindly use this interim email address to send your application forms as we are in the process of up-grading our computer system.

Best Wishes
HKA Recruitment Team


I submitted my application and waited........ Received the following e-mail yesterday, 11 September 2010.


Dear ****,

We are recruiting F/Os who are currently flying B737s and regret to
inform you that you are not successful. We do not require any more
documents from you.

Thank you for your interest in HKA>

Dudley Leicester


For anyone wondering if HKA is hiring non-typed pilots, they're not!:ugh:

[ReverseFlight]

For anyone wondering if HKA is hiring non-typed pilots, they're not!:ugh:

No. Dead wrong. I know of at least one person being interviewed this week who is not a typed (jet/turboprop) pilot.

[nicholasblonde]

I received same response as above from DL...have plenty of turbine EFIS/glass SIC and hours...

[nicholasblonde]

Only 737 rated pilots being considered...was your friend Chinese/HK by chance? Did he/she already have HKCAD license???

[hongkongfooey]

I have it on very good authority that the latest additional requirments for HKA are :

Must be proficient in boxing or some form of martial art

and

First aid certificate a definite advantage ( you may need to administer fist aid to a fellow tech crew member or management )

HKA Ultimate Cage fighting, bring it on :ok:

[krowten]

Just sent my application to these guys. Unfortunately before reading this post.

Sorry guys/gals - wont happen again. I will wipe my bottom with their repply. Outfits like these should be stopped and pilots working for them should borrow their moms dress and take dancing lessons instead.

[fattboy]

The management at HKA and HKE are pathalogical liars. Signing a contract with them means nothing. They will change it to suit themselves whenever they like. People are leaving in droves for good reason. Maybe when the flights can't be manned Hainan will root out this useless bunch and try to turn it into a real airline with genuine management.

[japanam]

ReverseFlight

Don't know exactly what you're calling "Dead Wrong" as the reply I received speaks for itself; unless of course you know something and are willing to share with the rest of us!

Would sure love to know more about this so called person you know who's been interviewed this week w/o a type rating!

Cheers!

[ReverseFlight]

I know of at least one person ...

Apologies - I made a mistake. There were at least TWO.

Can't say anything more at this moment, but would ask you to check this thread for future updates.