Thrill-Seeking Helicopter Pilot Required

[Aero Mad]

Hi all.

AIRBORNE PROBLEM SOLVER REQUIRED. REWARD OFFERED :O

Call me mad (I am - hence the name Aero Mad), but I have a problem requiring a helicopter pilot + helicopter that can lift more than two tonnes.

The reason is that I have a Land Rover stuck in a lake. Very stuck:

Photo here (http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7446/dsc0028.jpg)

The anonymous person (:)) who got it there was trying to see if this former lake (now marshland, semi dry but not all, as shown above) was capable of being mown.

Sadly, he found out it wasn't. Our tractor will not tow it (the rope comes close to snapping AND the tractor's wheels spin), and the Land Rover is somehow stuck, meaning that it has bellied out and the soil touches the chassis. The wheels have nothing to spin on.

Our crane accessory only lifts 1.3 tonnes, so a helicopter is needed as dragging doesn't work. It is in the grounds of a registered helipad (see Hammerwood Helipad - Home (http://hammerwoodhelipad.weebly.com/) ) in East Sussex and a historic house ( Hammerwood Park, near East Grinstead, historic houses to visit and stay convenient when flying to or from UK Gatwick Airport London. England UK. English Heritage & Preservation. Historic Houses Association and Stately Homes open to the public in the (http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/) ) - old website but you get the idea.

It is quite near trees - will send you more pictures if anyone's interested. Nearest fuel at Redhill (14 miles). Experience required.

Here's the good news - first person to give it a try gets a cuppa :} Any successes meet with a free meal for two at a nearby country inn.

Anyone? Or perhaps it's the next piece for the Tate Modern ;)

[xraydice]

May I suggest local 4x4 club, more often than not they will have kit such as kerr rope , winches, ground anchors and experience at this sort of thing, the roof is visable so all is not lost :)

[Horror box]

I hope you are offering sugar and a biscuit with that cuppa!

[Aero Mad]

Of course! War and Peace show tomorrow so will ask around as well.

[Big Tudor]

The Trabant must be really stuck. Can't see it for that bloody great Discovery that's also apparently stuck!;):p

[Horror box]

Don't worry I am sure someone will bite soon, just keep plugging away......

[Aero Mad]

A moderator with too much of a sense of humour changed my post of LR to Trabant... you wouldn't tell the difference in terms of getting itself out of a hole :)

[Landroger]

I think Xraydice and Big Tudor have the right of it and if you are serious, the only wokka that's going to shift a seriously stuck Disco is a Chinook. You have no idea how much mud can suck. :eek:

Google the Surrey Land Rover club or the Kent Off Road Club. They would probably use it as a winching exercise, without the risk of a very expensive faux pas. :ok: You will usually find the Land Rover fraternity to be helpful, friendly and possessed of a sense of humour. :) PM me if you want me to post the problem on the LRUK forum. :)

Roger.

[Aero Mad]

Yes - would be a good idea. Anything to at least unstick it would be welcome! Being the Rotorhead forum I'm sure I can declare that the sacrifice of the Cessna 152 in favour of a Disco might not go amise :} jks

[rotorboater]

A mate of mine got a LR stuck in the falklands, trouble was it was the CO's that be had 'borrowed' for a bit of souvaneer hunting, got it back ok for the cost of a case of scotch:)

(all you have to do is find the right guy to give the scotch to, helps if he has access to a wokka though)

[rotorrookie]

I think Xraydice and Big Tudor have the right of it and if you are serious, the only wokka that's going to shift a seriously stuck Disco is a Chinook.

a second hand Disco that need "minor" repair is worth maybe >$5000....which equals what, starting the Chinook + 10-15min of flight time?

its much cheaper to use this tool is and take it out piece by piece
http://product-image.tradeindia.com/00277410/b/0/Gas-Cutter-Heavy-Duty.jpg:E

[ShyTorque]

A few problems here!

Looks very close to those trees. How close and how high are they?

It looks like it will also need a long strop (100 ft?). Also, if it's embedded in the mud, who is going to burrow under it to rig the load?

Not many civvy helicopters are capable of doing this job for you; not many even have underslung load hook equipment. Your best bet is to ask the RAF at Odiham if they can do it as a training exercise.

But I reckon it is best left there as an artificial reef... :p

Some time since I landed on the back lawn there at Hammerwood! :ok:

[sycamore]

Try the Bomb Disposal Team; then you can have a pool as well.... or you could try one of those whooly great tractors with the cat tracks;
or ,you could try the TopGear crowd at Dunsfold,
or, just invite a Ladies mud-wrestling team,and on open invitation.....

[Horror box]

I am assuming (and hoping) that this is just a bit of trolling or a wind-up, but just in case here is a little clue as to why you probably wont find anyone
just tipping up for a bit of a giggle to give it a bash and have a cuppa!

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CkH6uPBPymY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CkH6uPBPymY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Ok - I guess I took a bite!

[CS-Hover]

at this distance and from the small size of the picture doesn't seem so difficult as one of these....:8



cameltrophy (http://www.parque4x4.com.ar/articulos/cameltrophy/index.html)

:D

[Bravo73]

Our crane accessory only lifts 1.3 tonnes


Hire a bigger crane then. :hmm:

[Aero Mad]

We had the Army Air Corps (656 squadron) at Hammerwood in 1988 to put lead on the roof, with Westland Lynx in tow ;)

VTZ0L3t4r-E

Could try getting them to come back, perhaps without Blue Peter this time :ok:

[Horror box]

You could try, please don't let me talk you out of it, but I have a certain amount of first hand experience with the Lynx, and I am not sure too many would be keen on trying to lift a stuck Disco out of a mud-hole - but by all means give them a call, you never know - errrr....
Sorry, I shouldn't be so negative.

[Aero Mad]

Yeah it probably is too close to trees (about 50ft - will upload a few more pics tomorrow, but a long and thick rope - we already have a 3 inch one - would do the trick) but just wanted to get the general concensus on a partly tongue-in-cheek idea.

The Disco now sits slightly more vertically and the front wheels have been dug out. Will probably try lifting it with a 5 ton digger on catapillar tracks, of which a lighter variant was due to be hired anyway this week for some cement work on an agricultural building.

[minigundiplomat]

Chances of you getting a chopper capable of lifting that are zero. Suggest you either pull it out, or get a heavy duty winch (such as a tirfor) and winch it out.

Either way, I wouldn't trust the kn0bber who put it in there with the keys again.

[Aero Mad]

Too right :E ladies mud wrestling team it is then :O

[piggybank]

From a distance that is an ugly looking piece of transport.

However, if you can find a pilot with a death wish I recommend hiring the local fire service along with a water tanker and cut it out with a water jet.

Pull the vehicle onto planks or thick plywood.

I have seen a Puma pull a barge load of logs in the 90's and you can probably achieve more pulling to the side rather than a straight lift, now read the death wish bit again.

[Aero Mad]

Mmm... there's only 50ft clearance with the trees as I said :( and with regards to towing sideways, we'll wreck the steering and exhaust AS WELL AS the suspension (which is so rotten it will be wrecked however we vacate the damned thing). Thought of it, but it appears that lifting upwards in some way (i.e. the catapillar tracked digger on the front end) is the only option.

[Gordy]

Most, if not all long lining, (at least here in the US), is done on a minimum 100ft line. Trees---not a problem.

Maybe use two pieces of rope in case one breaks... :E

[newfieboy]

Hey Gordy,

Hows the fires down south. We had a good go here in Quebec this last few weeks, BC next I reckon although hot in Ontario right now. :ok:

As for said Disco, phhffff...., did it today, 100ft trees and buried, although not quite as upmarket as a landrover. We pull stuff out all the time, simply because no other way, but helicopter. But the Disco should not be a problem, do what everyone here in Canada does with stuff bigger than a Disco, winch it out, standard practice daily in Canada. Don't need a Wokka I know where theres a few 214ST's that would have that out in a flash, although you mght want to go bury it in 200ft trees right after to give the crew a little bit of interest .......:ugh:

[birrddog]

The suggestion of a water jet (high pressure - maybe a fire truck might work), and putting boards, or ladders (regular or the ones used on 4x4 expeditions), is your best bet.

Dig or water jet under the wheels - put boards or ladders (or those purpose built 4x4 ladders/tracks) under the wheels, at an angle so when the vehicle is pulled it rides up and lifts off the mud.

AFTER you have dug under the wheels and put the boards in, use a water jet to clear the mud under the chassis (do NOT do this bit first).

If you have a tow hitch, use that, or that discovery should have a D ring on the back (I know it has one on the front) for attaching a towing strop - use a 5T strop - so rather the strop break than the car - and attach it to something that is going to pull up and away, rather than direct from the side.

This can either be done by attaching the strop to the bucket/arm of a JCB, or in some cases I have seen a jury rigged tower, over which a winch cable runs from a secure (possibly one/several) of the trees up to a high point over a pulley then DOWN to the vehicle.
(Hope this formats ok)
pulley on tower
/ ||| \
/ ||| \
/ ||| \
<winch>____|||________________<car>

It will be a bit of work, cost a shilling or two, but less than a replacement car.

Start slow - things can break and can go wrong quickly if you did not plan.

Remember the 6 P's.

Otherwise there is in outfit in Belgium or Switzerland that will charter you a Mi-26 for about $350k :ok:

Edited to add: Remember there is a 4wd low-range fixed diff gear shift setting on these cars for a reason... people tend to forget about that in the mud (or snow)...

[Gordy]

Newfieboy:

Hows the fires down south.

Little slow right now---spent two weeks on the Apache NF in AZ, then had the 109,000 acre Jefferson fire on the Idaho Natl Lab area....now I sit and wait....slow start to the year...

[Thomas coupling]

Strip it - reduce the weight.
Reduce the tyre pressure and see if the semi flat tyres help with traction.
Drain the pond.
Hire these agricultural flat panels farmers use to prop up their dodgy roads on their land. (Look like cattle grids but much lighter).

Eventually - if all else fails, claim off the insurance and then buy it back from the salvage company the insurance company use to retrieve it.

Has to be said though - "what a bunch of dick heads".:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

AeroMad, Unfortunately, underslung load lifting with helicopters is a specialised thing, it's not allowed by law for an unqualified pilot to just "have a go". Rope is not used; the design and use of the lifting equipment (e.g. steel wire or nylon strops) is controlled by law.

We can't hang any old bit of rope on an aircraft for jobs such as this, by the way. If it breaks under tension, the part attached to the aircraft may well fly up into the rotors and you will have two recovery jobs, not one, at best.

It's going to cost you dearly if the military won't do it and I am certain they will not even attempt it. For example, a TV mast was recently repaired near Oxford. I understand a helicopter was brought it from Sweden to do the load lifting.

Hope the roof restoration of the house is going well. :ok:

[Aero Mad]

As I said, wokkas not an option but wanted to hear opinions. Probably a catapillar digger jobby. The AAC probably wouldn't touch it :).

Roof restoration fine - but the lead crumples in heavy winter winds and will need replacing AGAIN soon. For that we might well get the AAC in, it being a little more viable :O

[500e]

If there is enough water to fill holes dig around wheels we used to lash 45 gall barrels to them let the holes fill with water and the buoyancy would lift the vehicle clear of the suction, we did this on a sandy beach, (a regular thing on this beach)worked ok most of the time, they would even float in with the tide:{ requires big holes so lots of beer :E

[sss]

Just leave it and buy a real LR maybe a 90 or 110.

[SASless]

A Wokka, a 250 foot line, hook to the rear bumper, two minutes....no muss....no fuss....and one very muddy Rover back on solid ground!

Just be prepared to make sure the thing lands on all fours as it is set down!

We have done that with Five Ton Three axile military Trucks before!

Cheaper alternative.....tracked excavator....a long steel cable....a pair of snatch blocks.....use the bucket to pull the cable or back the excavator....and Bob's yer uncle! Tie onto the frame of the Rover.....and not the bumper!

Have been there and done that!

[Aero Mad]

Would love to get a Defender but unfortunetly costs a bomb and the 1991 Disco is quite useful as a historic house's wheel barrow for daily repair jobs :)

[normalbloke]

I have a Unimog with a 16 tonne hydraulic winch/ground anchor ropes/strops/snatch blocks etc etc.I am in Nr Southampton if you want to pay for my fuel and a drink to do it over the weekend.Has the disco got a decent recovery point or towbar on the back and would it need to come out backwards or forwards?
Lastly, how far is it from the Disco to solid ground?

[Aero Mad]

Thanks very much - we also have three Unimogs (406s), however one has a cherrypicker, one a faulty digger and one a tipper back and mower, but also has a dodgy clutch.

Will think about it - having driven one of our Unimog 406s down from Preston (with no brakes...), am aware that fuel will be about £75 from SOU. Bear in mind that our SAME tractor's wheels slip, but that shouldn't be a problem with your vehicle.

The Disco is about 15 foot from solid land but has hit a wet patch in the marsh - the rest of it is drivable upon - but you probably shouldn't risk it with all that gear!

Lovely idea and I appreciate how much effort it will be - will consider it and post again later - our village has a communal Fergie tractor that needs some resurrecting but has a winch and ground anchors.

Thanks again and will further inform you soon.

[normalbloke]

Your village's old communal Fergie with winch and ground anchor would breeze it as would the Unimog.Mine is a U1000,has plenty of power and I "only" have 150ft of winch line spooled on, hence my question.I cannot believe you are only 15ft away from solid ground and it is still in there! I would have thought a 2 o r 3 4x4s in series would breeze it too.
I'll watch this one ever so slightly bemused.Please,please promise to post soem recovery pics.

[mad_jock]

The thing your require is a Foden recovery wagon. If you phone round your local REME TA bases you might be lucky and they will still have access to them. If they don't its hard work but perfectly easy to recover it using a turfer winch and a couple of ground plates and pins.

From personal experence most folk try and use the easy option of using another motor to pull a bogged in one out and either bog that one in as well or knacker it.

If you do get a TA unit interested in recovering it as an exercise just be careful with the reccy mech's. They are a bit thick usually and also hard as nails. Don't use large words and use swear words as punctuation and you should be fine.

[Landroger]

sss

Just leave it and buy a real LR maybe a 90 or 110.

Oh no, dear boy - the Disco is a far better off roader than many believe. I've waded a 200 yard lake in 3 feet of water and climbed out of a bomb hole you couldn't walk up and mine is automatic and is on road tyres. :ok:

Thomas coupling

Eventually - if all else fails, claim off the insurance and then buy it back from the salvage company the insurance company use to retrieve it.

My insurance company wouldn't let me buy mine when it got damaged last year. The insurance company had a contract with a salvage company and whatever my rights, they rode me out.:(

Birddog

Edited to add: Remember there is a 4wd low-range fixed diff gear shift setting on these cars for a reason... people tend to forget about that in the mud (or snow)...

Some do - if its automatic it may not. The device locks the 'centre' diff that balances power front to rear.

Shy Torque

We can't hang any old bit of rope on an aircraft for jobs such as this, by the way. If it breaks under tension, the part attached to the aircraft may well fly up into the rotors and you will have two recovery jobs, not one, at best.

My late and very much missed mate Graham Budden had that happen to him in a Chinook in the Falklands. The hook broke while lifting an empty 40ft ISO, but the rear strop hung on long enough to take the full, falling weight of the container before it too broke. The hook assembly spat back upwards and went round the fuselage three times, each time smashing blades on the front rotor.

Despite the massive vibration, Graham and his (Australian?) PH (?) managed to get it over land and virtually dropped it onto a cricket pitch opposite the 'Upland Goose'. When Graham saw the rotors, he was physically sick. The damage was very severe indeed and one blade was almost completely delaminated. After those sons of fun the engineers had fitted a new set of blades and done a rough set up, Graham had to fly it back to Kelly's Gardens on his own. :eek:

Roger.

[birrddog]

Birddog

Some do - if its automatic it may not. The device locks the 'centre' diff that balances power front to rear.

I have a 4.8L V8 1997 Series 1 Discovery - Automatic.

It has a "traditional" gearshift in front of the Auto shifter to select a combination of hi or low range, and 4wd diff lock or not.

I once got a Chevy blazer stuck (rental) in the mud on a friends farm in Mississippi because one wheel was in mud, and kept spinning while the 3 perfectly good wheels got not traction - had to pull it out with a tractor :ugh:

[Aero Mad]

Sorry it's not 15ft, having looked its about 40ft. Still not a lot. But it has bellied out on the mud... Thanks for all your help guys. Will give the village Fergie a try, and failing that normalbloke's U1000... hopefully :ok:

[ShyTorque]

My late and very much missed mate Graham Budden had that happen to him in a Chinook in the Falklands.

Yes, I knew Graham from our RAF days and from working for the same company later on in civy street.

[xraydice]

Well ,is it out yet ? and if so what method in the end or has it taken root :bored:

[Aero Mad]

Yes, we got it out with a 5 ton digger... :p knobber who got it in there not having keys again.