Which Flight School To Choose From (USA)

[soaring.high]

Dear Fellow Aviators,
Warm regards.Hope all of you are flying high !! I need a little bit of your help to decide which flight school I should choose.I am an Indian citizen.I hold FAA CPL ( ASEL+IR / AMEL+IR).I have decided to obtain CFI & CFII ratings (MEI later on) and build 800-1000 hrs giving flight instruction (Staying legally in US !!).Can any one suggest a flight school which will help me achieve my goals? (Not only getting CFI & II ratings is important but also building up flight hours is equally important to me).I have been contacted by The Delta Connection Flight Academy and they claim they will interview me after complition of CFI & II ratings and if I clear the interview I shall be given an opportunity to work with The Delta Connection Academy as a paid Instructor and I can build about 800 Hrs of flight time.Do you think the interview process will be transparent and I shall be given a fare chance? I am an alien pilot,how can they offer me to work with them?(Which clause or immegration law?).I do not intend to stay in US.I just need to get my CFI & II ratings and build about 800-1000 hrs.Any feedbacks on The Delta Connection academy? Fees is high(around $15k for CFI & II ratings) but they offer to build flight time after complition of the courese(Probably the only flight school that I have come across which offers that kind of a deal that too legally!!).Can my fellow aviators suggest me a better option?
P.S : Staying permanantly in US is not my intention !! (making my self clear after reading the other threads..lol!!) Since I hold FAA certificates I have no option but to train in US and build some flight time after that.

Thanks in Advance.Happy landings !!

[a.mandon]

I am an alien pilot,how can they offer me to work with them?(Which clause or immegration law?).I do not intend to stay in US.I just need to get my CFI & II ratings and build about 800-1000 hrs.Any feedbacks on The Delta Connection academy? Fees is high(around $15k for CFI & II ratings)

Actually after completing your degrees, you are ACTUALLY never able to "work" in the States.
The only possibility you have (after asking immigration) is to have your visa extended (6 months to be renewable for another 6 months) to have the right (I don't remember the exact terms) "to practice in the field related to your studies".

Delta academy is good and very Pro, as well as the Gulfstream Academy in Florida (Airline Career Pilot Program in combination with Gulfstream First Officer Program).

By the way about your remark ("I do not intend to stay in the US"). In case you change your mind !:rolleyes: only 2 tangible possibilities are offered:

You stay 2 years with an American girl and then marry her (US immigration is very smart at finding bull..it marriage)
You invest at least $ 1 million in the States.
Other waiting list for legal immigrants stands from 2 to 15 years (and if your name is Mohamed, it's longer!).

[soaring.high]

@a.Mandon,
Thanks for the informative post mate.So are you giving a "Thumbs Up" to the delta connection academy?Do you think they are trust worthy and will live up to their reputation? I agree they will not be able to hire me as an employee but they can give me an opportunity to work with them as a trainee or an intern to gain some industry experience which is completely legal, right?
As far as Gulf Stream Academy Paid FO programme is concerned I am not too positive about it.I (on the personal basis ) dont feel like buying the FO hours!! (On the top of it,The Gulf stream FO programme is far more expensive than taking the CFI & II ratings).


By the way about your remark ("I do not intend to stay in the US"). In case you change your mind !

Well buddy if I had to change my mind I wouldnt have made the remark at the first place !!:)

Any body else who want to provide their advise or comments about The Delta Connection Academy or any other school who might show some interest in taking me under their wings as an intern or trainee CFI after complition of the course?

[MartinCh]

Why would you believe they'd sort the visa issues for you at Delta??
Easy to promise 'chance'.. I think Delta is pretty damn expensive.
What's wrong with the place you studied at?
Why didn't you think of doing full monty up to CFI/II at school with past J1 visa options, to be able to instruct?

You're not likely to secure work visa just like that.
Doing aviation foundation course at community college on F1 visa programme, all the same time doing CFI/I at affiliated flight school (thus considered 'on campus' if working there part time after finishing the rating/cert). How about that? There are some colleges that'd waive about half of the fees for already CPL/CFI holders, ie not having to do PPL, IR etc modules theory that costs. Not cheapest way, but fairly foolproof regarding visa status. They tend to be 2yr, after first year you could get OPT 1yr work visa for 'placement' as instructor, if you need it, saving dosh that you don't need to pay for second year, since you're there for hours.

Why would you say your FAA certs are useful only for USA? You can always convert. Also, some Asian countries can validate FAA ratings more easily, for instruction.
Plenty US CFIs looking for work, considering the job market and the 1500TT thing that followed some high profile crashes in recent months. So yes, it's possible that way, but not a sure deal recipe either. I can't recommend anything, just giving you a hint, where to look.

[soaring.high]

@Martinch,
Thanks for the post mate.Well I know its easy to offer a "chance" but right now Delta is the only school which is offering me that chance.I know they are on the expensive side but they are the only one who are offering on campus work(Possible!!)
The school from where I did my flight training has lowered its standards.There arent too many instructors nor the aircrafts left.It took me a year to finish off my training up to CPL (SE,ME&IR),My visa was of 1 year so I had to leave US.I had planned to get CFI & CFII ratings after CPL but just couldnt get the ratings because of lack of time.I inquired with the school management about J-1 visa and they said it was not possible to issue a J-1 Visa.(Same was the case with other schools as well)
Do you know any community college & a flight school affiliated to it which will provide me those benifits which you discussed in your post?(take a note that I am an Indian citizen residing in India fyi).
I know that I can convert the FAA certificates to any other certificates but trust me its easier said than done.Atleast as far as the conversion process in India is concerned...its a pain in the ass.It takes people years(yup thats right years.!!) to convert their certificates into DGCA certificates.Yes there are other asian countries where the conversion process is much simpler than the Indian one but again I need a work permit which is again a tricky issue!!

[DownIn3Green]

SoaringHigh...

A Mondon is not very accurate on his facts...Many schools offer ATP courses where you earn your CFI's and then stay on for up to 2 yrs until reaching the 1,500 minimum...

As for staying in the US MARRIAGE is the worst thing you can do if you aren't in the US on a FIANCE visa...period....that's the fact...

[soaring.high]

@DownIn3Green,
Thank you very much sir for your post.Do you know any flight school which offers such a deal as mentioned in your previous post?(cfi to atp ratings with 1500 hrs of TT ).And do they accept international students in such courses?I think it is a great option if it works out.
I dont intend to stay in US permanantly.I just need to get the ratings and build a few hours.So marrying a US gal is deffinately not on the cards for me!!

[MartinCh]

SoCall,

Although you know a lot, I think you confuse 'post-J1 F1' with F1 for sort of proper academic studies with some flight training attached, ie Associate degrees. Now I realised I used the 'UK term' *foundation degree* - same thing, but different word, ie part of bachelor's.

Most community colleges, if not all, that do their Associate in airline whatever (read, meant for flight training, to get federal loans and credits for UVSC etc later, since it's more common to expect a degree in the US to sift through CVs) do it via F1 visa. It'd qualify him to work 'on campus' 20hr/week with unlimited hours during break/holidays, straight after CFI/I if he's offered job. That's all hypothetical, no guarantee.

SH,
I think you made a mistake there, regarding your visa etc. Sure, if you didn't know about J1, or changed your aims after you did most/all of your training, that's understandable.
M1 visa you were on, you were able to extend by applying for another 3-6 or whatever months that'd be reasonable for the extra ratings required. Not sure another 12 months would go down well for only CFI/I ratings, but anyway.

Also, while it can be pain in ass, dealing with it, you could have also applied to another school and change your schools while on M1, before it expired, ie start of the 30 days grace period to leave the country. It's easier to change status onshore, than going through the whole thing of entry clearance, visa and flights up and down.
The school has to (supposed to) sign the papers to 'release you' and check that you're going to legit place, but then it'd be the other place sponsoring your visa/for your status to maintain. This could be the source of haggling.

SCA,
Downin3Greens probably meant H-3 visa, as 'trainee'. It's bit pricey and takes some paperwork for employer to do. I've read/been told by some individuals who did it/could do it, in the past, about it. The whole idea of that, is that the 'ATP course' needs a trainee to build time, to get the magical 1500TT and hence he'd qualify for specific 'training instructing' allowance. I know, kinda strange concept to grasp, but that's how it works. Training towards certificate that requires hourbuilding (=instructing). There are few limitations, numbers of these are limited to individual employers etc. Not well known thing, as many schools can't or won't bother with the paperwork involved.

Example? Palm Beach State - Affiliated Flight Schools (http://www.palmbeachstate.edu/x14117.xml) It used to be WPB Community College, renamed past year or two. They'd give you a credit for FAA ratings in possession for the Associate. You've got choice of two schools here, for example. I don't think it's very cost effective way to build hours, but if you really, really need to stay in the USA... It'd be long shot sorting all this if they aren't likely to hire you.
I know more stuff about F1 with community colleges for rotary flying from other parts of US.

Anyway, SH, could you not have done part of the CFI training before doing CPL checkride, saving flight hours needed? Or was it 'policy' of school, only starting after CPL checkride passed? Too late now. I think - not certain - that at least part 61 rules allow for that.

[vasiokata]

Hello,I would like to know if someone has ever heard about Ahart Aviation Services flight training organisation in California.I accept advices from all!

[soaring.high]

SoCal App,
Sir I intend to get a CFI/CFII ratings.I would not mind doing a 2 year(or more) degree course along with that if it allows me to stay and work in US for about 2 years(Got to be cost effective as well!!).For that I have to get F-1 visa.I am in a tight situation financially and getting a degree course along with the ratings will cost me plenty.That is the reason why I chose not to do so.(Can you suggest me any options/alternates?).And also is aviation related F-1 any different from the normal F-1 catagory? Can you explain how is it a replacement to J-1?
As you said no school/college reccomends F-1 for only CFI/II ratings.Only option remaining with me is M-1.It doesnt allow me to work but I think I can gain professional experience (correct me if I am wrong) after complition of the course(i.e CFI/II).I have been contacted by Delta recently and they said I wont be eligible to get F-1 and I'll have to get an M-1.But still after complition of the course I could interview with them and upon selection build a few hours (depending upon time left on my visa after complition of the course) without getting paid which is fine by me atleast its a legal way.

[MartinCh]

Well,

If you did your research properly regarding work/instructing option after finishing training, and looked into the (NOW PHASED OUT) aviation J-1 visa, you'd know.
You didn't even know you can change your schools on M1 or get another extension at same school!!

There are 8 (IIRC) schools, mostly fixed wing, two that do both rotary and FW and one only rotary (Bristow Academy) that used to be able to issue DS-2019 form to apply for J1 visa. That'd give you two years' worth of training and instructing (IF hired) at same or other US school. Since some US govt agencies didn't want to administer J1 for aviation, the other didn't want it, so they cancelled it.
Couple big schools' bosses got together and lobbied for some sort of replacement.
Initially, the 'news' said *new kind of visa M1 for work as well* - which we know didn't mean anything.
The govt agencies decided to consider 0/PPL-CPL/IR/CFI programme equivalent to academic studies, with OPT (up to 1 year work authorisation at the end of training, but with more restrictions regarding paperwork than previous J1).

So, the F1 one can now get in past J1 schools, where you DO NOT do any academic, ie associate degree or more, technically, but do part 141 ground and flight training, blah blah, IS NOT same as other F1.
Since there is the provision of OPT, they decided it kills two birds with one stone. No harm to schools that'd lose lots of business from international students, especially Hillsboro Aviation and Bristow Academy, lots of Europeans doing heli training over there, plus no big changes in regulations, making up new visa class or category.

You probably can do another F1 associate degree, but it ain't cheap, and won't get credit (READ DISCOUNT on fees) for your CPL/IR. Also, no idea how dicey it'd be trying to work legally OFF CAMPUS, as it's not normally allowed, unless in unexpected hardship etc, the clauses. It'd all have to be applied for.
I don't see a point trying it that way. I only pointed out that it could be done via college with flight school links, as there, it'd be your 'on campus' as well, where you do part of your studies, practical flying. It's nowhere near sure deal for you.
USA isn't, in general.
Your comments about 'marrying an US gal' etc, that you don't fancy that. Ehrm, for Europeans or Asians, American women are different sort. If not a fake papers marriage (for which you'd have to pay a lot), you just aren't likely to do it just like that anyway. Good.

SH, you're definitely not eligible for post-J1 F1, as you have more than +-PPL.
Go ahead, if you believe Delta that they'd sort H-3 for you. F1 could only be done with extra cost for fees, for associate degree.

Enough on that. I see it very bleak you'd get past anywhere beyond your CFI/I and leisure flying/hourbuilding in the US should you wish so, paid out of your pocket, legally. At least the way you imagine it.

[MagicTiger]

I have been to a Delta sales pitch in the UK, and to be honest I found them to give a lot of "vague" promises - like there is always a chance that things will change, and you can instruct with us, but we can't promise you anything now!

"but we are the best and biggest (+one of the most expensive schools)"

But once you give your money, and you start your course, all those promises will turn to nothing. From what they said, you could during a degree, work for them for "free" - however this would have to be during a degree course I think of 4 years (Possible this fact is not 100%, my memory not 100% just now on this)

But again this was followed by BS like " but we are number one flight school in US, so we will maybe get new rules soon, (or next year)"

Now if you are young and dont have to much experience in life and business, you might believe such BS! But the truth is that they will tell you ANYTHING to seal the deal, get your business, your money!
But on the paper you sign, they will not PROMISE YOU ANYTHING with regards to work, because they legally can't employ you!

(Actually with regards to investments in the US, you don't need 1mill $, around $100.000 is enough, as long as it is not in property, and that within 12 months you will employ 1 or 2 US citizens + you spend $10.000 on a US immigration lawyer every year, not knowing 100% sure if you get a visa for your next year of business. They want to see that you can sustain yourself, and will be providing work for US citizens, should increase every year, until you at least employ 3 - 10 US citizens. Anyway that is off topic, nobody here is going to go that way anyway, furthermore such a visa would be specific for one business, you could not part time work as a flight instructor anyway.

Also from what I understand, all US FO programs, are for US citizents/green card holders ONLY!

The Delta promise you an interview, but they can NOT provide you the visa you need, unless you take a degree program. It is easy to promise you an interview, but it is you who have to make sure you qualify for the correct visa to work in the USA, not Delta Ac., so you can pass an interview, but not get the job because you do not have the correct visa, and you can not obtain this.

[Bealzebub]

I have been to a Delta sales pitch in the UK, and to be honest I found them to give a lot of "vague" promises - like there is always a chance that things will change, and you can instruct with us, but we can't promise you anything now!
But on the paper you sign, they will not PROMISE YOU ANYTHING It is easy to promise you an interview

Am I missing something? For most reasonably intelligent adults it would be painfully obvious that an individual or organisation couldn't promise anybody anything that wasn't within their gift.

Sales pitches are designed to sell a product or service, it is up to the buyer to satisfy themselves that the product or service is something that they want to buy. If it says on the paper you sign (contract?) that they "will not promise you anything" then it is quite likely that they will not promise you anything. If it is a promise you are seeking, then best to keep on looking.

[MagicTiger]

They do make you believe there is a remote chance that they can offer you something they NEVER will.

"Bealzebub" - When they say no other school can, but we (Delta) - because of our reputation might be able to! It gives a person false hope, that will never materialize. And when they got your dollars, they won't care whatever they told you in advance.

Read OP, said he was promised an interview! This would give the OP a glimmer of hope, this is the false promise, to say that NOBODY (no other flight school) else can give him this, because they are no longer able to. (because of new visa restrictions)

The OP is seeking advice and opinions on this forum, that I assume is one of the ways the OP is finding out about the company and the product they are offering. I am simply saying I would not get my hopes up one second to believe that he will have a job with the school after he finishes, unless he takes the degree course. And also then most likely he would probably need to work for free as an instructor while taking his degree.

Delta gives leading information of why they are so great, but some of the information is misleading!
Besides being over priced, the sales reps from Delta was fairly arrogant and full of themselves. $80.000 - $90.000 for a full course! Madness!!! Not only was they arrogant, but really amateurs coming unprepared for their failed sales pitch.

Imagine coming to a full time ATPL theory course, and not knowing that all the pilots already had their PPL! Then start talking about how good FAA pilots was compared to JAA pilots!

When asked direct questions about the instructor jobs, they avoided a direct clear answer - however everyone on these forums knows that instructing in the US is not easy now, with so many unemployed pilots - US pilots will always have priority unless its JAA training.

Then they started talking about that maybe maybe next few months, there would be a visa so foreigners could stay and instruct for 12 - 18 months, and because of their government connection, they would be the first to be approved.
However with todays internet information we all can find out that this is all BS by Delta flight school, however for someone who believes in the dream, it takes time and effort to investigate these things, and it is not always easy to find an easy answer. Fact is easy though - instructing for long period in the USA is not easy anymore, regardless of what any flight school will tell you. Unless of course you work for free, opps. you can not get housing or food either, as this is considered as pay! So it ends up P2F - if you actually get some offer, hmm. legally!

Supply and demand, the only 100% promise Delta gave, was that in a degree program, you would have a visa that would allow you to instruct with them, if they needed you and wanted you - which according to another previous student there from Italy was highly unlikely in the current climate of employment!

My message refers to the OP, not saying Delta is bad, just don't like companies that belittle other's, and make themselves look like they are the great industry standard for aviation in the USA - because they claim to be connected to Delta Airlines. Unless you are a US citizen being connected to Delta Airlines means 0 -
Colgan Airlines is also connected to Delta Airlines, and we all saw their training standards and crew treatment standards, and the results of these standards. So the association itself does not mean much, as no foreigner is ever considered for Delta Airlines, unless he becomes US citizen or gets a green card.

Delta flight school uses the name/brand and association they have with Delta Airlines, to give confidence for students to choose them - however Delta flight school is NOT Delta Airlines, Colgan Air is NOT Delta Airlines.

[DownIn3Green]

Soaring High...try Naples Air Center in Fla...

They can answer all of your questions...

[MartinCh]

I didn't mention that possibility of sorting OPT after M1 as you already left US and no idea if it could be added, say, you stay another 3-6 months, that'd give you only couple months max, IF, it's possible to count past M1 visa, I didn't study it that much.
The fact is, you'd have to sort it before the visa expiry, in the US, and the possible time isn't really worth the hassle, cost and won't serve the objective.

The OPT during/after F1, is after at least 1 academic year of study, when you could work FT (and during vacations), else PT.
I wouldn't bother with any of this, for fixed wing flying.

See Magic's comment above. Delta is expensive. Just like Embry-Riddle. That doesn't mean that they don't get business in. Just maybe not more cost-conscious people with not so deep pockets and looking for 'brand' with high hopes.

Anyway, why couldn't you have done some CFI ground when nearing your CPL/IR end? part 61.183 and 185 are fairly clear. Not so formal 'FI module' like in Europe or elsewhere. Or did you school expect you to do finish CPL and only then do anything about CFI? That'd be raking in money from the flight time..
I know, too late..