Commercial Multi Engine Requirements??

[EchoKiloEcho]

Hi, I need some advice. I am about to do my Multi Engine Commercial Checkride, but my examiner said that 2 types of aeronautical experience requirments can not count on 1 flight... :ugh:

For example, I did a 300nm cross country with one leg 250nm or more in a Multi Engine. I also have to do a NIGHT VFR corss country of 100nm r more, so I did a 300nm cross county flight at night so that both requirements are met in 1 flight. He said it is not possible, so now will have to do another cross country before he can do my test. Also does the 100nm cross country flight DAY conditions have to be done DAY VFR or can I count a day IFR cross country flight? It is not very clear.

Again, I also have to do 10 PIC Multi Engine flight hours but PIC in the USA is different than in Europe. You can log PIC in the USA if you have a multi engine rating and is acting a PIC even if you have an instructor is on board. I logged all my flights a dual, so they do not count, so will have to do those as well... :sad:


Laws & Regs FYI: :confused:

For an airplane multi engine rating:

b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—

(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a multiengine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and(v) Three hours in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

[weasil]

It is hard to give you good advice without seeing your logbook. The examiner should know what he/she is talking about. If you think they are giving you bad advice I would contact the local FSDO and ask to have someone review your logbook to see if you have met the requirements for an FAA checkride (CMEL).
Remember, there are thousands of examiners and you can always do your checkride with the FAA for free, you don't have to pay somebody.

[thornycactus]

For example, I did a 300nm cross country with one leg 250nm or more in a Multi Engine. I also have to do a NIGHT VFR corss country of 100nm r more, so I did a 300nm cross county flight at night so that both requirements are met in 1 flight. He said it is not possible, so now will have to do another cross country before he can do my test. Also does the 100nm cross country flight DAY conditions have to be done DAY VFR or can I count a day IFR cross country flight? It is not very clear.

Actually, your examiner is a tough one. Some examiners accept, some don't!

You can't argue. If he wants to have two different cross-country time, then you must do it.

Again, I also have to do 10 PIC Multi Engine flight hours but PIC in the USA is different than in Europe. You can log PIC in the USA if you have a multi engine rating and is acting a PIC even if you have an instructor is on board. I logged all my flights a dual, so they do not count, so will have to do those as well...
You paragraph is not clear.

I assume you have ME rating from Europe. If you have one, then, when you are flying in U.S., all time will be PIC time! If I were you, I will use a pencil to fill out the PIC time which I flew ME airplane in U.S.

[Peter PanPan]

Why didn't you get your ASEL rating first and then add the AMEL rating according to FARs 61.63(c)? Flying these x-country flights required as aeronautical experience by 61.129(b) make things so much more expensive!
I think you could perfectly knock off the x-country requirements simultaneously, for instance: flying the long 250nm leg of the 300nm x-country during the end of the day followed by the three landings required and then head back to your departure point in the night flying the 2hrs VFR x-country which would be more than 100nm.

[MarkerInbound]

The two 2hour/100 mile X-C flights have to be dual, they are part of the 20 hours of training under (3). At one time I think these had to be VFR flights but that is no longer in the reg, both the day and night dual X-Cs can be IFR.

The 300 mile triangle is supposed to be solo, it's under the 10 hours of solo time of section (4). The FAA understands no one will rent a multiengine aircraft to a student so the reg allows a CFI to ride along. This is sort the US version of the UK PICUS.

As PPP says, why on earth would anyone do their initial COMM in a multi unless their wallet overgrossed the plane.

[Peter PanPan]

MarkerInbound, I think that according to 61.129(b)(4) you may fly with a CFI on board which fulfills the dual requirement, wouldn't it?
I know that in previous editions FARs clearly stated that those 10 hours were to be flown solo, therefore no one else on board.
To be noted: the requirements are exactly the same both for SEL and MEL so again why would you gain your Certificate going the most expensive route?

[thornycactus]

As PPP says, why on earth would anyone do their initial COMM in a multi unless their wallet overgrossed the plane.
The Indian students from India are doing initial COMM in Multi-Engine!

They need PIC time!

Initial COMM in Multi-Engine gives you PIC time right away!

So, Indian students' wallet are overgrossed.

[MarkerInbound]

It goes back to the 1997 revision of part 61 in the Federal register:

The FAA acknowledges AOPA's argument that solo time in multiengine may be impractical due to
liability and insurance concerns, and is therefore replacing the term "supervised pilot in command flying" with "flight
performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor" for multiengine airplanes.
The FAA has therefore deleted any requirement for solo flight time in a multiengine aircraft.


In fact they've now added the performing the duties of PIC with an instructor to all COMM requirements to which one commenter noted you could now get to an ATP with 10 hours solo flight.

The intent was that you got x amount of training and then went out and flew solo. The real world intervened and no one would rent a twin to a student so the FAA created FPDPICWAI. And they said it would be good CRM training for the student to have the MEI do SIC stuff. And the helo people said we have the same problem so the FAA opened the door to all ratings. I'm sure the flight schools and instructors are happy because the instructor won't be riding around for free. The question becomes how much does the student learn about being a PIC if he knows the CFI save him from bad judgement.

TC, I assume you mean the students need multi engine PIC because they could log PIC in a SEL. In fact they are losing PIC time unless they got their PVT in a MEL because it would be hard to log PIC in a plane they're not yet rated in, whereas they could log the COMM SEL instruction as PIC if if they had a PVT SEL.

[Peter PanPan]

Very informative MarkerInbound, I think you've pretty much said it all.
I would just like to remind that AOPA has really interesting articles on their Pilot Information center, covering all sorts of topics from Instrument stuff to Complex/High Performance subtleties, there is this article about logging high performance and complex time that is really worth taking a look at http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2000/pc0003.html
I guess these students get their ME add-on rating once they gain their Private ticket on SEL, right?

[Peter PanPan]

My apologies, I guess the article can only be accessed by members...

[EchoKiloEcho]

Hi Peter PanPan,

If I knew I could do the ASEL first, I would have done it first. I was told by the flying school that I have to do the IFR rating first, and because I am current on a multi that I do it this way then I save money on doing 2 checkrides and not 3. I spent alot more money than what I budgeted for.

I meet all the ASEL aeronautical requirements, but did not realise I had to meet it multi-engine as well, but that is my fault for not checking. Although I want to, I'm not going to blame the flying school as I found them very friendly and professional.

When we realised I needed to do the x-country flights in a multi, we did a 300nm with 250nm leg at night to meet both that & the 100nm night vfr x-country. When we booked the checkride and checked requirements with the examiner, he said we can't double count, now I have to fly another 100nm x-country before my checkride this weekend. I feel like :yuk: :yuk: from all the extra money, but I have no choice, I have to respect the FAA examiner and do whatever he says as he is the one I need to satisfy and I have to be out of here after the weekend with an FAA ME COMMERCIAL IFR. :{

Anyway, I just thought of putting this out there as a warning for anyone else going this route.

FYI...I have a JAR fATPL ME IR FI.

[Peter PanPan]

"I meet all the ASEL aeronautical requirements, but did not realise I had to meet it multi-engine as well, but that is my fault for not checking."

EKE, you do not have to meet them both. Since you meet all the ASEL requirements you get your Instrument rating on ASEL then your Comm Certificate with an ASEL rating. From then on it's a matter of adding ratings to your Certificate, ie adding an AMEL rating, how could you justify saving money on checkrides and spending it on the training time requirements to meet the aeronautical experience for a Comm Certificate?

Again this is what you should refer to, Title 14 FAR Part 61.63 (c)

(c) Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:
(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.
(2) Must pass the practical test.
(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.
(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, weight-shift-control aircraft, powered parachute, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.


Your Instructor hasn't shown much integrity/professionalism by advising you to follow the most expensive route, specially if you were already a holder of a CPL(A) with ME experience! Now friendliness doesn't surprise me at all with the amount of hours he may have logged flying ME with you.