Jet Operators that you WON'T be joining??

[Callsign Kilo]

I'm sorry if this appears to be doom and gloom mongering, if there is such a thing? I was having an interesting chat to a colleague in the cruise today (experienced Captain with 20+ years in the industry) regarding recruitment. We both discussed how we had noticed a small degree of revival in the market in the last 6-8 months, however we also certainly came to the agreement that it wasn't anything much to get excited by! The conversation led to how jet operators (largely UK specific) would eventually decide to recruit. My Captain colleague suggested that the majority would ignore the traditional tried and tested method. He was adamant that self improvement was now dead and buried, and with the age of PTF, SSTR and temporary cadetships upon us, a lot of experienced guys (whether they be instructors, corporate/air taxi, TP or regional jet operators) would be left behind. He even suggested that guys with a few thousand hours on 737s or A320s would now struggle to make the jump between two similar operators. Those seeking better T&Cs, a new challenge, or a base closer to home would fall short to cheaper cadets or those employed on temporary contracts.

I said there would always be exceptions; BA and Virgin certainly. However outside our two legacy carriers he was pretty adamant that the vast majority of others would subscribe to his particular line of thought?

I would be interested to hear what everyone else felt regarding the issue?

[Denti]

Yes, that is certainly the trend at the moment. However entry-requirements, testing and connected stuff can be regulated in union negotiated contracts. So it is us we have to blame in the end, not the beancounters who allways will try and get the most cost efficient way.

[mdieker]

I think you are absolutely right here.

I just joined a company in Europe together with some Ex Globespan pilots. Most of them would love to fly for Easyjet and be nearer to home here in the UK. However we cannot compete with low hour guys willing to accept 6 months contracts and very low pay to get into this profession. Most of us have families to support so have to move far from home to the Middle East etc.

Experience has become to expensive. Safety is our highest priority .....

[go around flaps15]

Well there is an exodus at the moment with a lot of experienced first officers. There heading to the sandpit for the bigger jets and bigger money and even bigger changes in lifestyle.

Will a lot of these guys ever be able to come back and work in the UK and sustain a fraction of the lifestyle with the ways things are going?


I would say no.

[The Yank]

For the first time (in a long time) I am going to have to disagree. Times are a changin'. I am one of the many that have had to go to far away places to obtain GOOD employment (and I am so glad that I did). The contract market is already starting to heat up, and the likes of China and the Middle East are going to have to start upping the T&C's if they are going to keep bums on seats up at the pointy end.

The economy has only masked the looming pilot shortage. In the next 5-10 years the Sh*t will hit the fan, and finally it will be in our favour

FARNBOROUGH: Pilot supply: the component the airlines have forgotten (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/07/17/344436/farnborough-pilot-supply-the-component-the-airlines-have.html)

[Metro man]

Same over here I'm sad to say. Company want young , cheap cadets in the right seat. Early 20s, and whilst the pay is low, it's not too bad for that age especially for a first job.

Quick promotion with the lure of the mega pay :rolleyes: in the left seat keep complaints down.

[fly-half]

Or worse still, the charter airlines just offer temporary summer-only contracts - which they already are. So depressing!

[FANS]

It reminds me of buying commissions into the services!

There will come tipping point, as people can't keep treating this as a hobby after investing £100k but unfortunately the Western economies are still in a very bad way.

[bia botal]

Well there is an exodus at the moment with a lot of experienced first officers. There heading to the sandpit for the bigger jets and bigger money and even bigger changes in lifestyle.

Not just first officers, captain to are heading off, with direct entry position becoming available with many airlines, add to that as you mentioned experienced FO many at my airline that have just pulled off command upgrade courses for the sandpit and there is going to be a real shortage. The locos have gone for the young low times guys that will work for peanuts and the chance of a early command, they forgot to factor in that they become prime for the picking for the likes of emirates, not to mention that they have 10,000 young women working for them, big draw cards for a bunch of well trained FO's. The only way to stop it is to much the pays. I recently heard my OM had said that the reason why T&C where the way they are is because they can get away with it and that you have to pick your moment, me thinks the tided may well now be turning.

[stansdead]

I think that the mess that eJ have got themselves into will only be resolved by hiring DEC's in the short term.

The likelihood is that as SFO's (and some Captains) leave for the Sandpit, the training department will quite simply not have the capacity for multiple Command courses, long line training for CTC cadets and for general new hires.

To me, it's inevitable that DEC's will be involved one way or another next year. The training needed is almost nil. And promoting an SFO will mean needing to replace him/her as well.

Like it or not.............

[falconeasydriver]

Have to say Stan, I totally agree with that assessment, and its in line with the short term management style currently in vogue in the Orange portakabin.
Speaking to various friends around bases in the UK, they all seem to think the level of disruption and crew shortages are no worse than previous years, but the impression I am being given is that there is potential for a mass exodus post summer schedule.
Ostensibly Easyjet took the cheap option of going down the path of employing large quantities of cadets, the problem is that the pool of experienced pilots (who could fill the coming void) is being rapidly diminished by employers in my part of the world, moreover the notion of DEC's if it happens will cause immense resentment amongst the troops.
Lastly, there seems to be plenty of guys/gals around today, but what about in 6-9 months time?

[Callsign Kilo]

go around flaps 15

We work for the same company, and I totally agree with your opinion that the FOs leaving need to be making the conscious decision that the move to Emirates is the right one. The vast majority of these guys are command ready FOs. Saying that command isn't the 'be all and end all' however they need to be prepared to sit out another 8-10 years in the RHS of an A330 or 777. I think there is much to be made of this type of opportunity (especially if you are mid twenties, single with no kids, mortgage etc) and undoubtably this would influence the perspective that you take on life in the sandbox. However if it doesn't work out (and I know quite a few people who fall into this category) then they have hit a bit of a sticky wicket. It will be difficult to get back to Europe as an experienced FO. And if you do, you will take a firm kick in the teeth in terms of income. Ultimately you need command experience to get home.

The Yank

I agree that good T&Cs are to be had in far off lands (anyone see the recent advert in Flight for Singapore Cargo 744 Captains??) this isn't going to suit everyone. I was hoping to keep the debate central to UK based airlines; however I take your point.

Bia Botal

I agree, if people start to leave in their droves then airlines will have to expand upon their annual flightdeck budgets. However the majority will be concerned about retaining the services of those sitting in the left. I don't see T&Cs improving greatly for FOs. Largely because they can be replaced by cheap cadets, SSTRs, PTFs etc. Then again, if there are REAL shortages of skippers then command ready FOs will be a requirement. An experience gap will need to be bridged. I hope that becomes the case.

Stanstead

To continue from my suggestion above in relation to bridging the experience gap. You specifically make the point that EZY will require DECs, largely due to training department capacity (or indeed lack of). I reckon if DECs are required, then EZY will try and bring them in with reduced T&Cs. An even bigger uproar would result..... However seeing things from the my side of the fence (within FR) DECs are a big part of the airlines plan to 'plug the gap' so to speak. I have noticed that they all go onto a BRK contract as well (no real surprise there).

[stansdead]

You may well be correct, but who knows for sure?

One thing that does at least seem fairly certain, is that there are BIG orders being placed at the Farnborough Air Show as we speak.

The boot is slowly being put back onto our foot.

And for the avoidance of doubt, the reason I mention easyJet is that they seem to be the ones who've screwed things up in the biggest numbers this Summer.:eek:

[initial vector]

The Yank:
The economy has only masked the looming pilot shortage. In the next 5-10 years the Sh*t will hit the fan, and finally it will be in our favour

I can't wait!
We should all flip the coin back to them and as we are now forced to accept pay cuts (or new guys: PAY to work!!) we should ask "ridiculous" amounts in return to balance the scale back...
Years back pilots were in short supply and had to be "bought" away from their current contracts! Sometimes with very hefty signing bonuses.

I just look forward to it not being "normal" anymore to buy your own type rating, or pay to fly, or work for free, or sit in ****ty hotels, or collect 7 euro's for an overnight, or be asked to surrender half your net income, or having to live in a student flat cause that's all you can afford, or or or or or....

I cant wait!! :cool:

[silvercare]

I agree with many opinions, indeed today once you get your job is better to keep it really tight. Jumping is not anymore a pilot sport. In case you have an option to move on another company be sure to study any details because if you fail the jump there is no way back in many many case.

By the way if severals experienced guys (whether they be instructors, corporate/air taxi, TP or regional jet operators) would be left behind, God help the inexperienced without money in their wallet. :confused:

[CaptainProp]

Will a lot of these guys ever be able to come back and work in the UK and sustain a fraction of the lifestyle with the ways things are going?

You might be correct, but then again - Why would they wanna go back, looking at the current state of UK? Would they wanna go back for the great education system for their kids? Health care system? Great weather? I think in many ways Europe, not only UK, is loosing its advantages, certainly compared to many places in Asia where you can find international schools, private (and good!) health care, better lifestyle, much better value for money etc etc. I think the next 12-18 months are going to be very interesting for us and present us with some great opportunities! :ok:

[fokkerplod]

As one of the many experienced FO's (made redundant) who wouldnt on principal accept a temporary summer or a much reduced work the summer and get paid 1/2 salary with the winter on standby contract.

I like so many of my colleagues Captains and F/O's have had to accept employment in the Sandpit.

To do this we've signed up long bonds of between $30,000 & $50,000 for three & 1/2 years, just to keep the bills paid and to keep in current flying practise on albeit a new type.

We would all dearly love to be back in the UK, but cant help wondering if without a command (5-7 yrs) we wont get a look in because of the clamour for PTF low hours guys (not their fault tho)

Fokkerplod

[A and C]

I wonder how long it will be before we have an airline boss telling us how dis-loyal pilots are!

[Dan Winterland]

Quote ''Why would they wanna go back, looking at the current state of UK? Would they wanna go back for the great education system for their kids? Health care system? Great weather? I think in many ways Europe, not only UK, is loosing its advantages, certainly compared to many places in Asia where you can find international schools, private (and good!) health care, better lifestyle, much better value for money''.

I made the break six years ago when I realised I would not be able to pay for a decent education for my kids. UK state schools were not a viable option. I work in Asia for a company with some of the best Ts and Cs in the industry, am enjoying life and can't see myself returning to the UK.

My company is very forward thinking compared with UK operators. It returned to profitability as soon as the recession was over. It didn't make anyone redundant during - as it knew it would be hard to recruit afterwards and also appreciated the effect it would have on morale. All recruitment this year is through the company cadet scheme where the cadets have to contribute nothing towards their training and receive good remuneration on a full time contract on graduation.

Having just visited the UK and having spoken to some of my friends who work for "Low Cost" operators, I don't know why they put up with all that cr@p. I use inverted commas to describe these operators as low cost as I recently took one of these flights in Europe. The fares seemed low enough on the internet, but once I added all the charges (including the ''on-line booking fee'' where I had to pay for the priviledge of using my own printer ink to print out my boarding card) the cost was far from "low''. And the flight itself was a pretty unpleasant experience.

I will do all I can to not have to work for this sort of airline.

[EXEZY]

Dragonair best T+C's? :hmm: Is it that much better than Virgin?

[Spunky Monkey]

Why? Have Virgin started recruiting again?

[stansdead]

Spunky.

No. Dan left Virgin after 2001.

[Dan Winterland]

''Dragonair best T+C's? Is it that much better than Virgin?''

Yes - by quite a margin. Plus I would still be a F/O at VS - and for some years to come as well.

As for Time Traveller's comments, it's all about what you view to be important for a good quality of life. The help for accommodation is quite substantial. Far from living in a shoe box, I'm in a nice house in a very nice town, a short walk from the beach, close to where I moor my yacht. And the housing allowance can be used to pay your mortgage so it eventually ends up in your pocket. The kids go to one of the best private schools in the UK and we all thoroughly enjoy living in HK and have a much higher standard of living than if we had stayed in the UK.

Any contract can be abused - I remember when Virgin were making people redundant in 2002, the poorly written document the VS employees had signed was used against them when the company decided on a policy of selective redundancy. At least in Hong Kong, contract law is very tight and I feel quite secure with mine, thank you.



And I don't miss the UK tax, crime and weather.

[CaptainProp]

Dan, I could not agree more and that was my whole point - For those of you out there who are fed up with how you are being treated, what you are paid, or perhaps just need a change, there are other options out there! Sometimes its a bit of a gamble since at least you know what you have, but never know what you'll get. But hey, you only live once! :ok: