Consequences of failed checkride

[rabidcat]

I did my check ride today and failed. Everything went pretty well except the throttle chop (sim engine failure) and the 180 auto. I've never had a problem with the 180 auto RPM getting to high, but my examiner had to get on the controls for a slight correction when I let the RPMs get up around redline. I think I was just tired, but that's part of the test I guess. The throttle chop was the fastest and most sudden I have ever had thrown at me, and before I even knew it, it was cut and recovered for me. Dunno if I was given much of a chance on that one or if I was just worn out, but again, real life doesn't give you much chance either and doesn't give a sh!t if you're tired I guess. Long story short, I have a few things to work on. Still feel like cr@p about it. Anyway, what does this mean? Does anyone know if you have failed a check ride when you go for a job?

[sycamore]

R-C,perhaps you could give a bit more detail on when/how/alt/ias/type flown that the `throttle chop `occurred.Also which country are you flying in?

[rabidcat]

In the U.S.

Well, all the variables of the engine failure were fair. 600AGL on downwind pitching for 70kts, pulling a good amount of pitch (maybe about 22in in the R22). I'm not saying the setup or anything was unfair. I think it was all me, but it was odd. I'll try to explain:

He says "simulated engine failure" as he rolls off the throttle, and then in the blink of an eye he was already collective full down, and cyclic back to get the RPM's up. Apparently, I waited so long that the RPM had dropped to 87% and he quickly got my RPM back up and let me finish to a powered recovery.

It happened and ended so fast I don't really know what happened... I was tired and we were on hour 4 of my exam (2hrs ground/oral, 2hrs flight), but damn. I was shocked. I'm not sure if he instinctively recovered when he cut the throttle, or if I was just so out of it that I didn't process it all fast enough. He is a fair guy, and I am a tired guy so I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt that it was fair. I still can't get over how shocked I was that my response was so utterly poor apparently. I mean, if the RRPM dropped to 87%, I dunno how I missed it. I actually wonder if I froze up or what, but I don't FEEL like I did. Sounds stupid right? All I can think is that if I am really this confused about what happened, it was probably right to fail me. Just a bit disappointed in myself. So what are the consequences anyway?

[Gordy]

Was this private, commercial or CFI? Either way no big deal to fail.

What is a big deal is that you say you were tired after only 2 hours ground and 2 hours flight. In the commercial world in the US, especially fire---(one of the areas you want to get into from reading your previous posts), we frequently work many more hours than this. To give you an example, I have just finished two 14 hour days, flew 7 hours the first and 5 on the second.

[rabidcat]

I follow you on that for sure. I wont lie, this stuff wears me out and i get sort of sloppy. Its a work in progress... Then again, it's tiring to get grilled for 2hrs then have to perform under close scrutiny for 2 hrs.

Private cert

[Ascend Charlie]

To answer your question, nobody knows you have had a stumble.

There is no "FAILURE" stamp on your forehead, no "Loser" tattooed on your nether regions, nuttin.

There is a fair chance that over the past year, the airline pilot who flew you somewhere had been scrubbed off a military pilot course. You possibly complimented him on the landing.

Once you get The Ticket, you are a pilot, not a "second-try pilot".

[Night Beetle]

No big deal,harden up,shut up,and just do it again.The whole world does not need to know.

If you are going to do this full time you will have plenty more check rides with alot more emergencies to handle.

[22clipper]

I've had the opposite experience squire. Went for a H269 endorsement & got it despite making a complete mess of the day. As a thousand hour R22 pilot, I just couldn't get the hang of a machine with no governor. I never sent the paperwork to CASA because I'd already made up my mind I wasn't comfortable with this machine & we all have final say of where we're at as pilots.
Where do you feel you're at as pilot? That's what counts every time you climb into a cockpit. If you think you're response time is too slow do it again till you're happy with it. If not, write it off as a bad day and move on. What ever you do don't let a bad experience hang over you like you're own personal rain cloud because it can effect your cockpit behaviour.
The flying game could learn a lot from sports psychologists. The Sport types spend zero hours weeping over spilt milk, it's all positive with those guys and they're right. Focus on the strengths & fix the weaknesses.

[EMS R22]

What is a big deal is that you say you were tired after only 2 hours ground and 2 hours flight. In the commercial world in the US, especially fire---(one of the areas you want to get into from reading your previous posts), we frequently work many more hours than this. To give you an example, I have just finished two 14 hour days, flew 7 hours the first and 5 on the second.

Give the guy a break!! Yes we all do big hrs , 10hr flying days and 17hr on duty etc. He was going for his Private and that is stressfull and 2hrs on ground would make me bloody tired to!!;)

[Gordy]

Give the guy a break!! Yes we all do big hrs , 10hr flying days and 17hr on duty etc. He was going for his Private and that is stressfull and 2hrs on ground would make me bloody tired to!!

I admit that I was a little hard on him, shoulda seen what I first wrote and changed.... He is still going strong....hopefully he keeps going....ya gotta have THICK skin to keep going and make it in this business, especially fire which he wants to do.... I don't want a pilot who gives up too easily.

The break comes when he sends me a resume in 4 or 5 years and tells me he is still in the game....That is when I give him the break and may hire him.

[Gordy]

2hrs on ground would make me bloody tired to!!

Sorry...missed this gem....2 hours...the average ground portion with B. Lloyd or Murphy, (for those on the Left coast), lasts about 6 hours, and then you fly. And yes, that was for a pvt rating.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Gordy,

The impression you give is that you seem to wear your "Hard Ardous" schedule like some kind of badge of honour. The real question is should you be working that hard operating a helicopter in a fairly hazardous environment.

You need to be sure that you are peddling the correct line here otherwise you might be part of the reason why Operators can "wring" every last drop of concious effort from their crews!!!!

Fatigue comes in many forms and stress is one of the biggest causes. They way you describe your schedule who would wnat to get involved!!

For RABIDCAT, Chin up mate. If you have learnt from the experience then it is not wasted. The Authority will know of the failure but there is nothing in the public domain to record this.

On your next trip try to relax and make sure you are well prepared. Preparation takes away the trepidation.

Good luck!!

[rabidcat]

I appreciate everyone's advice, criticism (you bastards!), and experiences. Always nice to have the perspectives. I don't want anyone to think I am saying that I got a raw deal and if my examiner doesn't think I am ready, I trust him. He's got a few hours more experience than me and has never steered me wrong. I'll be in this game in 5 years or as long as I can. I didn't sign up to quit and I didn't sign up to be subpar. Thanks everyone.

[Delta Torque]

Not a lot of margin in the R22, and the examiner probably let things get to the limit of his/her comfort zone before getting the rrpm etc, under control. In the real thing, you won't have the luxury of an announcement before the emergency.

As someone mentioned, you need thick skin to be a pilot....no matter how high you climb on the ladder, there is always someone to check you out...and your reputation is only as good as your last flight.

The trip report or 'hate sheet' tends to not leave much room for complimentary comments...more about the things you did wrong, or need to tidy up. That's the game.

Keep plugging away, but don't let the failures get you down. Work out where you went wrong, and approach the next check ride with a positive attitude.

Happy landings...
DT

[Gordy]

Gordy,
The impression you give is that you seem to wear your "Hard Ardous" schedule like some kind of badge of honour. The real question is should you be working that hard operating a helicopter in a fairly hazardous environment.

Agree with everything you say. I am somewhat an advocate of safety and CRM these days. But also expect people to work hard.

The point I was trying to make is that we work more than 4 or 5 hours in a day. If you work a hard day, expect to get paid for it. I work 12 days on and 2 days off for about 8 months each year...this is by choice, the rewards and benefits will come one day.

Typically, this is the normal work schedule for 4 months of the year for people working fire contracts in the US. During that time, you "could" be working 14 hour days-----this was my point I was trying to make. Luckily for me, the managers on the contracts I work, have a 100% attitude towards safety and crew rest. I have NEVER been asked to fly if I felt tired. There are other safety factors built in.

Not trying to get the "badge of honor"....just trying to give an idea of the "working pilot" vs the impression "some" people may have of us. We DO work for a living.....

[bigglesbutler]

Fear not, I failed my first checkride for my PPL in the UK and I now am a captain on the north sea having also flown 4 years of SAR in the Scottish Islands. What you need to do with this and any future failures, if you want to become a proffesional pilot, is to look a the failure objectively and learn from your mistakes.

For example, I did my FAA Commercial and CFI so I know how you feel, after the ground segment suggest to your examiner that you need a 10-15 minute comfort break. Take a breath of fresh air, have a pee and some water (peraps NOT at the same time), and show some command potential by realising you need the time. I know the examiners are time limited but 15 minutes normally won't make TOO much of a difference. If you ask and explain why I think any experienced pilot would give you credit for it.

As others have said it isn't a cake walk being a pilot, as there is a chance of failure at any moment and you HAVE to react to it in an appropriate manner.

Chin up, we have all been there just on't give up.


Si

P.S. My first auto on the R22 was exactly as you have described I didn't do anything and the instructor had to do it for me, lesson learnt.

[Gordy]

Just to add--I failed my commercial AND my CFI ride the first time...you will not be alone.... Do not make excuses. Any flight school that claims 100% pass rate, has too low standards in my book....

Like other have said----shake it off and move forward....I believe it shows character to carry on after a failure. BUT, be prepared to work hard.

[S76Heavy]

How was the debrief? Did you get any useful feedback from the examiner?
You've had lots of useful responses here, nothing I can add that has not been said already.

Hang in there, it's attitude and aptitude.

[manitoubrian]

In the re-test you will only have to do those two items.

From what I remember of my flight test the examiner told me that if I failed at any point he would tell me, the test would be over, and we would return to base. Then on the re-test it would start from the point of failure from the last test.

So it's not all that bad

[EN48]

Having done many certificate and proficiency checkrides over the years, I have come to believe that the role of the examiner is more about assessing judgment than determining that a candidate can fly every required maneuver at exactly the required level of performance or better. The DPE's and FAA Inspectors I have flown with have been typically very senior people who have seen it all over many decades. These guys have developed some skill is determining who can get the job done safely and who cannot. My certificate checkrides have been low pressure events (except for the self imposed pressure) with the oral portion rarely more than an hour and the flight portion requiring a sample of the syllabus maneuvers, not every maneuver in the book. As my current instructor (also a gray hair with 20,000+ hours in helos, and a flawless safety record) recently said, "when I sign you off, there is no question that you know how to fly; the role of the examiner is to test your judgment." One examiner said to me at the beginning of the checkride, "Relax - lets make this fun," and another, "I can tell on your first pick up whether you are likely to pass or not." So, it may be productive to consider selecting another examiner.


Not a lot of margin in the R22


This is another part of the story. For reasons of economy (apparently) most helo students start training in what may be the most demanding helicopter in the light helo fleet. There are those who might argue in favor of this, but my logic says start in something much more pilot friendly and progress to the more challenging as skill and experience grow. Kind of like starting fixed wing training in a Pitts instead of a C152.

[birrddog]

Make sure you get enough rest the night before.

I know you can be anxious - the big day's tomorrow, I so darn want that ticket, etc. etc. all leading up to a restless night.

This lack of sleep, and the nerves of the test wear you out - I had them and I already held a ticket (from another country) when I did my FAA test. For some it's just the fear of taking a test.

I know of a guy recently in my neck of the woods who barely got 3hrs sleep the night before his ppl(h) check-ride; needless to say it affected his performance.

[rick1128]

First of all, I am surprised that the examiner did such a quick throttle roll back. The FAA has issued notices to Examiners and CFIs about this, as there are some helicopters that could under certain conditions have an actual engine shutdown because of this action.

As for FAA Inspectors, on the helicopter side for the most part, they are usually quite experienced. But you do find a few that are not. Then the checkride could get quite interesting. Fortunately, the ones I have dealt with have been quite experienced.

Which redline did you go over? The engine or rotor? If you are in autorotation with the needles split, the rotor RPM can go over the engine redline, just as long as you do not go over the rotor redline. I do know of one inspector that insisted that you could not go over the engine redline. His reason was that the engine was still running.

I would not be concerned about this checkride. No one really cares when it comes down to it. And they will never ask. Do you ask your Lawyer how many times he had to take the Bar Exam? Of course not.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Okay Rabidcat, if I read this right, it seems like you had two separate problems: 1) Too slow response to a throttle chop in one auto; and 2) Allowing the RRPM to get too high during a 180 auto. Both events caused the examiner to take the controls and apply corrective action. With that in mind, he quite appropriately busted you. Face it, your RPM control is...well...weak.

You keep harping on the fact that you were "tired." Aww. Hate to repeat what you already know, but the helicopter doesn't care. And frankly, being tired is no excuse. (Someone should have mentioned to you that your checkride was not going to be a simple cakewalk in the park.)

A lot of people (not saying you, specifically) think that helicopter flying is just a lark - that it's just oodles of fun!...much more so than that boring ol' so-easy fixed-wing flying. Well guess what: Helicopter flying is fatiguing. It takes intense concentration, 100% of the time. If you perceive yourself to be tired, you step up your game and compensate for that. If you allow yourself to use "I was tired" as an excuse for poor performance either on a checkride or in your general, post-certification flying, you'll end up being a poor pilot.

We who do this for a living understand. We make sure we have enough stamina to do the kind of jobs guys like Gordy do. I've had plenty of 16 to 18-hour duty days (legal in the part-91 world) when my last landing was to our uncontrolled airport out in the middle of nowhere which has such pathetic lighting - and then I have to put the helicopter on the dolly on the dark ramp. And you know what? At the end of such days I'm tired too.

So. Get some more practice with your engine-out landings (sounds like you need it). Then go back and retake the checkride and kick some examiner a**. Show him what you can do! THEN come back here and proudly announce that you're one of us now. We eagerly await that post.

[rabidcat]

Okay Rabidcat, if I read this right, it seems like you had two separate problems: 1) Too slow response to a throttle chop in one auto; and 2) Allowing the RRPM to get too high during a 180 auto. Both events caused the examiner to take the controls and apply corrective action. With that in mind, he quite appropriately busted you. Face it, your RPM control is...well...weak.

You keep harping on the fact that you were "tired." Aww. Hate to repeat what you already know, but the helicopter doesn't care. And frankly, being tired is no excuse. (Someone should have mentioned to you that your checkride was not going to be a simple cakewalk in the park.)

A lot of people (not saying you, specifically) think that helicopter flying is just a lark - that it's just oodles of fun!...much more so than that boring ol' so-easy fixed-wing flying. Well guess what: Helicopter flying is fatiguing. It takes intense concentration, 100% of the time. If you perceive yourself to be tired, you step up your game and compensate for that. If you allow yourself to use "I was tired" as an excuse for poor performance either on a checkride or in your general, post-certification flying, you'll end up being a poor pilot.

We who do this for a living understand. We make sure we have enough stamina to do the kind of jobs guys like Gordy do. I've had plenty of 16 to 18-hour duty days (legal in the part-91 world) when my last landing was to our uncontrolled airport out in the middle of nowhere which has such pathetic lighting - and then I have to put the helicopter on the dolly on the dark ramp. And you know what? At the end of such days I'm tired too.

So. Get some more practice with your engine-out landings (sounds like you need it). Then go back and retake the checkride and kick some examiner a**. Show him what you can do! THEN come back here and proudly announce that you're one of us now. We eagerly await that pI agree with most of what you said, just don't confuse my "tired" comments as being me crying or making excuses. It is what it is... I was tired. As a pilot do you not accept being tired as a factor? I actually think my RPM control is pretty good most of the time... I just got a little sloppy on that 180. It has been awhile since I had any RPM issue during entry and descent in an auto, usually more of a flare issue for me. Anyway, I am trying to keep a good attitude, trying to recognize my mistakes and flaws as well as correct them. I don't claim to be a great pilot, but I strive to be a good student and pilot. Not sure if anyone here can claim to know the pilot who was born knowing how to fly a helicopter, with the perfect pilot personality, and physically ready to go out and fight fires and whatnot for 18hr shifts. I try to get a grasp of my strengths and weaknesses every time I fly. I feel a bit lost in the woods a lot and don't always know how to correct some of my weaknesses, but that probably comes with more than 75hrs of experience. It's a work in progress (hence the term training)...

Where are your shortcomings as a pilot?
How did any of you build up the stamina to fly the hours you currently fly?
Do you by chance have the fh1100 pilot blog?

[FH1100 Pilot]

As a pilot do you not accept being tired as a factor? I actually think my RPM control is pretty good most of the time... I just got a little sloppy on that 180.

...And the throttle-chop. But don't worry. As you say, things will get hopefully better with practice and experience. If you're up to it.

You've already learned a tough lesson: You can't be "average," ever, especially on a checkride. You have to be the absolute best you can be, 100% of the time. If you're tired, compensate for it. It's what the pro's do.

The good news is that no one will ever know you busted the checkride. When you and your instructor feel that you're ready, do it again.

And pass it next time, dammit! You know you can.

[bigglesbutler]

Stamina comes with practice, and with experience you will learn the "CUES" of when you are getting tired and you then monitor yourself to prevent accidents. It sounds a bit odd I know, but you learn to see the first link in the chain and then slow down to make sure you don't rush into any mistakes.

For an insight into how to be a proffessional go to pilotpsy dot com, it really turned my career around and made me a MUCH better North sea captain.

Good luck, chin up and always do you best

Si

[topendtorque]

In an R22 there certainly is quite a force on the collective imparted from the check pilot who has to overcome the throttle friction. It's always wise to establish whether that will be an impediment or confusing to the trainee or not first.

To get around that, one could always go through the routine a little differently, but always only after the warning that at all times one has to be prepared etc, and discuss whether;

1) there is enough airspeed to help RRPM recovery if necessary,
2) we are safe to reach an area,
3) cover the collective with left hand,
4) say "throttle in overide check" as the switches go off with the right hand and straight back to cover the cyclic if necessary.

Next time just kill the switches. Forget about being tired, especially when the subject is tired or wound up is a good time, then you know that he/she will/can respond anytime.

In a 47, non turbo of course so one doesn't root the turbo, during the silence one can usually have some time to discuss the subjects heritage for a while before taking over, if it's a bit slow working it out.

[Two's in]

It helps to put this in perspective. When the engine fails in a helicopter, there is only one "memory" action required to avoid the impending disaster - lowering the collective and entering autorotation. It follows that you must (a) achieve this without decaying the RRPM beyond recovery, and (b) not screwing the main rotor off on the way down with a massive overspeed. The importance of (b) can vary slightly with aircraft type and instructor, but (a) is always a given.

Now all helicopters can increase your level of excitement and provide you with amusing lights and horns during system failures, but very few things will kill you as definitely and assuredly as not entering autorotation correctly following an engine failure. To put this back in perspective for you, your instructor is simply giving you another opportunity to demonstrate that the single most important emergency drill in a helicopter is ingrained in your memory and can be recalled and executed safely and consistently.

Now ask yourself what tiredness has to do with this drill (nothing) and how fast the throttle chop matters (not a bit) and more importantly, could you ever envisage yourself flying in a similar state of fatigue operationally (probably yes). The only score you will get if it happens for real are you versus gravity, so take another chance to understand how critical this is, learn from your instructor's feedback and nail it next time, and next time, and next time and every time.

[bigglesbutler]

I replied to rabidcat in a PM and he has asked me to post that reply on here, he thinks others might find ituseful and if they do then great.


I will start with the end result, I am a calmer and more confident pilot, because I approach work in a more proffessional manner I am retaining more information and crucially understanding that information better. You have a choice to make, do you want to be a PPL and purely have fun or do you want to be a professional? If you want to only be a PPL just be safe and have fun, adopt a safety attitude and that will be enough. If you want to be a proffessional take that safety attitude to the next level and be calm and thorough at all times. It isn't easy at first, but with practice it gets easier. I think of my "hero" at work who I want to emulate and consider what they would do when I need to make decisions.

My situation was due to a lack of training at work and being restricted to a glorified autopilot, so when I came to command training I didn't have the key skills in place. I had to learn 5 years worth of training in 3 months, and pilotpsy along with a CRM(I) course helped turned my outlook from a bolshy happy go lucky to what a true professional should be. If you are in any doubt find a CRM course as it is a useful tool even for single pilot ops, it teaches you to deal with others in an aviation environment no tjust the cockpit.

In short the only person who can make the difference is you, and it isn't easy but take a long hard look at yourself and compare yourself to sam on pilotpsy and change if you can. Just remember thought CAN change behaviour, it did for me.

Good luck

Si

[rabidcat]

Did the re-ride today and knocked it out. :ok: