2 Man Ultra Long Range [Archive]

Flap10

18th Jul 2010, 14:22

haha...good one Adam but you just failed your upgrade interview! Peter is right!

Normal operation is defined as: any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation

Peter has already defined Ultra long Range operation exactly as it is shown in the AFTL.

If the time change is six hours or more that technically and legally defines it as an Ultra Long Range operation, and you don't even use the table under Normal Operation. In fact nothing under section 15 would aplply...not even para 15.4.

You're going about it completely backwards by first determining whether the FDP falls within normal ops, and when it does, incorrectly assuming that it must be normal ops. WRONG! You have to first determine whether it is normal ops, OR ulltra long range ops, BEFORE you apply the appropriate section. IE section 15 or section 16. In this case because it is 6 time zones or more YOU HAVE to apply section 16.

Yes you could cross six time zones in a few miles at 89.9deg North, but the 35deg temp and 99% humidity tells me Hong Kong is not at 89.9 deg North. The AFTL were originally written with Hong Kong in mind, and any destination that is 6 times zones away from Hong Kong is a f%$^*ng long way. The outdated AFTLs may not correctly applty to ORD-AMS, but by the current AFTL definition IT IS an Ultra Long Range Operation.

So the answer to the riddle is 3! The minimum crew compliment is 3 with max allowable FDP of 13hours. Some of you have seem to go off on a tangent with "requiring three or more pilots". Did they have to spell out to you that you can't do a ULH flight with two pilots?

ULH = six time zones or more
3 pilots = 13 hours FDP
4 pilots = 18 hours FDP

Time to eat your humble pie :E unless someone proves me wrong in which case my pie is ready.

Adam GoodJob

18th Jul 2010, 16:35

Hey F10,
I hope it's an exceedingly large pie :)

As Peter says:
"Ultra Long Range Operation
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."

It does not say:
""An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes requires three or more pilots"

Why would ORD-AMS need 3 or more pilots with an FDP of only 8 hours? The time-change is only half of the equation. The determinant of whether or not you need 3-man crew is FDP only.

Obviously my statement about 89.9 North was a quip, but the fact that the "time-zones first" argument does not stand up to my example must sow the seeds of doubt in your mind, no?

Here's another big clue: it's rostered with 2 crew; do you really think they would roster it that incorrectly? :}

p.s. Done all upgrades already ;)

SQC7991

18th Jul 2010, 23:52

Of course you don't need 3 crew. The FTL states quite clearly that you must a) require more than 2 crew and b) cross more than 6 time zones to be classed as an ULH flight. It is not a) OR b) but a) AND b) to be considered ULH.

The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!

As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?

Waterskier

19th Jul 2010, 00:54

Wow, quite the response....

I interpretted it as requiring 3 or more pilots because 6 or more hours time difference, but now many say requiring 3 or more pilots AND 6 or more hours time difference.

I see I'm not alone in my interpretation as a few others read it similarly. I thought 6 hours time difference was the line between Normal and ULR and that ULR requires 3 or more pilots.

Interesting to note that normal ops (section 15) makes no mention of physiological rest whereas Ultra Long Range Ops (section 16) does.

jed_thrust

19th Jul 2010, 00:57

The answer lies in the HKG-AKL flights...

Only a four (or five) hour difference, so by our FTLs, it can never be an ULR operation, because our FTLs were written to cover our primarily East-West flying.

Surely a 12 hour sector heading 180 degrees is just as tiring as heading 090 degrees? How easily you recover from that sector (for the return flight) is another issue entirely, which is why there is Table X and Table R.

Flap10

19th Jul 2010, 02:09

Adam If the company is interpreting the AFTLs the same way as you are it was never the intent. You have to remember that the AFTL was drafted a long time ago, before they could foresee themselves doing a flight that has a relatively short flying time, and one that crosses more than 6 time zones.

The addition of "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more..." was there solely to differentiate certain normal ops 3 crew flight to that of 3 crew ultra long range ops, such as SYD, BAH, AKL..etc and nothing else. It was never meant to be interpreted in such a way to allow a flight with 2 crew AND 6 time zones. The line between normal ops and ULR ops was drawn at 6 time zones.

The FDP and number of crew does not dictate the definition of ULR ops rather it is the time zone changes. Hence the very reason for having Table R. Table R wasn't designed for you to do a normal ops flight and then apply physiologiocal rest.

Please spare me the "they must be doing it so it must be legal..we all know that CX interprets any agreement to suit their needs"

Just to add to the debate then, by your interpretation it would seem quite acceptable on those occasions, where lets say they are short of crew to ANC, for the flight to depart HKG two crew, make a quick stop in Sapporo, and then continue to ANC. Each sector is less than 9 hours so requiring only 2 crew and hence the time zones changes become irrelevant and the flight automatically deemed as now normal ops. So early morning departure normal ops, 2 crew, 2 sectors max FDP 13+15 shouldn't be a problem to ANC according to your interpretation. A direct flight makes it a ULR ops and a stopover in Sapporo makes it a normal ops flight, do you think the AFTL were written with that intent????

Since when has the company in the past applied this practice????? NEVER, because they can't! The intent of "time difference of 6 hours or more between the places where the duty period began and ended" was to protect the above scenario.

I am sorry but not quite ready to eat my humble pie yet!

crwjerk

19th Jul 2010, 02:58

Adam.... You included me in your first line back there.... I indeed said exactly as you said, albeit in one line.

RookieRookie

19th Jul 2010, 03:41

Oh no Flap 10, don't say that. Now crew control knows they can do it with 2 crew. I can smell another new pattern coming out soon

main_dog

19th Jul 2010, 08:43

At the risk of exposing myself as anunprofessional/gullible ... "Cathay freighter pilot"I must agree with Peter613 (much as I dislike agreeing with a gentleman who treats his colleagues with such disdain).

The ULH definition can certainly be interpreted both ways, while 15.4 only applies to Normal Ops to begin with (so to my mind should not be used to define whether a flight is ULH or not).

But the big clue for me is in the Commander's Discretion Report form: if you grab one, you will notice that it clearly specifies "Time Zone Change of Six Hours or More" as the (sole) distinguishing factor between Normal Ops and ULH.

The fact that they have been rostering ORD-AMS as two-man so far just means that CX haven't noticed yet either, or that they're "trying it on"... either one of these options doesn't really stretch credulity IMHO :}.

MD (also ready for a serving of humble pie if required!)

jetset

19th Jul 2010, 10:39

Is it by chance part of the dispensation? :confused:

Waterskier

19th Jul 2010, 13:47

The variation is for the 12 hour time zones west/east of their home base in one duty cycle, on specific flights between Chicago and Amsterdam.

It makes no mention of 3 man / 2 man or ULR.

bogie30

20th Jul 2010, 02:08

Guys, Who cares! Sounds like a great trip.....get out there, enjoy it, drink some beer. Life is just too short.

Bogie

Flap10

20th Jul 2010, 03:16

Ok bogie sounds cool, but at some point you have to know your stuff or else life can become even shorter if they hang you out to dry following an incident :ok:

SQC7991

20th Jul 2010, 08:01

You are absolutely correct. Not sure why there are people on here who do not understand the rules but what can you do?

Of course you don't need 3 crew. The FTL states quite clearly that you must a) require more than 2 crew and b) cross more than 6 time zones to be classed as an ULH flight. It is not a) OR b) but a) AND b) to be considered ULH.

The FDP is less than that required for 3 crew therefore it is a normal operation albeit requiring physio rest. These FTL's were writtena after a great deal of research and discussion and circadian rythm was very much at the centre of this and the rules do in general work well - pity they're about to change!

As someone else says do you really think they would roster this flight illegally?

Flap10

20th Jul 2010, 08:42

Thank you for the re-post that really cleared it up now! So circadian rythm doesn't seem to be a factor with 2 crew as they can flight west or east bound, up to their max fdp, cross an unlimited number of time zones so long as each scheduled sector time is less than nine hours. Yes i can see that you have a good grasp of the aftl.

Adam GoodJob

20th Jul 2010, 11:42

Hey Flap 10,
So who's failed their upgrade interview and got to eat an ENORMOUS pie now? :oh: :)

Flap10

20th Jul 2010, 21:36

Wait a minute Adam you are incorrectly assuming that you are correct. The only evidence you have provided to support your argument is the fact that the company is rostering ORD/AMS 2 crew and therefore you must be correct. Yes we all know that CX would never ever break any laws, even if it meant saving a few $$....(I am being cynical of course).

I have yet to see anyone counter argue the point I made about being able to fly HKG/ANC or even FRA/HKG two crew, if your interpretation is correct. What about the Commander Discretion form? Are you going to ignore that as well??? There are many loopholes in your interpretation which you haven't even addressed.

Again as pointed out previously, you don't use a sub section (para 15.4) of one section (section 15), to determine if a flight conforms to another section (section 16). It's just not designed that way....not sure why you guys are having a hard time understanding this. If your interpretation is correct, then why even define 3 crew ULR ops?????. There would be no meaning to it.

Since you seem to think that you know the AFTLs, please entertain me and explain to me the difference between a 3 crew ULR ops and a 3 crew normal ops? Obviously time zone change seems to be a petty matter in your argument, so explain to me the difference between the two ops.

jed_thrust

20th Jul 2010, 23:33

I have yet to see anyone counter argue the point I made about being able to fly HKG/ANC or even FRA/HKG two crew

Ok, I'll bite and try....

HKG-FRA:

Sign-on is at about 2340 local, therefore max FDP (2 crew) is 11 hours. The FDP required for that flight is about 13.2 hours, so 3 crew ULR FDP (13 hours) is insufficient: you need four crew.

The rest in FRA is over 30 hours, so the available FDP for the return flight is 13 hours, with a required FDP of 11:55, hence the provision in our FTLs that allows us to return to HKG with 3 crew.

If it were an acclimitised crew (say, based) that started in FRA, then they have about 13 or 14 hours FDP available, more than enough for the 11:55 required FDP (10:55 sector time), so they could do the flight under the leg stretch rules with 3 crew. For the return flight to FRA, they would have had over 40 hours rest, so that gives them an available FDP of 13 hours, again, not enough for the 13.2 hour FDP required, (nor is it enough to complete the flight using 3 crew ULR FDP of 13 hours) so four crew needed again.

That's my take on it - happy to be proved wrong.

RookieRookie

21st Jul 2010, 01:01

Guys, I'm still trying to learn my AFTL section and I'm now confused!

They are couple of questions I'd like to ask:
First, I believe they cannot roster 3 men crew coming back from FRA-HKG on a passenger fleet because of a paragraph in the rostering practice section. Is that right?

Secondly, someone mentioned HKG-RJCC then RJCC - ANC with two crew. It sounds scary. I really don't want to see that new pattern. But are they allow to extend ULH FDP with a split duty? (section 17) I think it's legal to do this pattern if the crew have a rest period in RJCC. Is that right?

The definition section does define ULH as 3 or more crew required with 6 time zones difference. It's very hard to ignore that.

Farman Biplane

21st Jul 2010, 01:14

This thread seems to indicate that there is indeed ambiguity (no doubt intentional) in the text/interpretation of the current AFTLS/RP.

It is the role of the CAD/CX CSD/AOA(HKAUSCAN) to ensure that when these documents and agreements are constructed that there is no "manoeuvre margin" in the text and its real world application to the safe and efficient crewing/operation of aircraft.

Of course many will say "your dreaming", but hopefully the new AFTLS/RP will address some of these issues?

Flap10

21st Jul 2010, 04:26

Jed,

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant to say FRA/PEK/HKG. I am simply trying to show that their interpretation is flawed, because it would allow 2 crew to fly as far West or East as possible without any time zone limitation. They keep reminding me that according to the definition of ULR, it has to meet condition A (requiring three or more pilots) AND condition B (involving a time difference of 6 hours or more) to be deemed as a ULR flight. Not A or B. Fine! I am not arguing the English language here! My point is that ULR wasn't defined a decade ago with the intent to make an odd ball ORD/AMS sector legal. It was defined this way purely to differentiate between 3 crew Normal Ops to that of 3 crew ULR Ops period. I still say 6 time zone changes alone has always defined ULR ops.

If you believe in the flawed interpretation then you must also accept that so long as the crew compliment is kept to the minimum of 2, then the "involving a time difference of 6 hours or more" is not a factor, in which case it would be quite legal to roster 2 crew to fly FRA/PEK/HKG or HKG/CTS/ANC, this is but only two examples. I've forgotten what the scheduled sector length for our old Istanbul flight was, but if it was under nine hours it could have been crewed by only 2 pilots, but it never was!

Do the maths for FRA/HKG via PEK for 2 acclimatised flight crew or HKG/ANC via CTS. You will find that it is quite doable, albeit marginally, and this is what makes it a farce if you believe in the flawed interpretation.

If you start interacting section 15 and section 16 together to determine if a flight is ULR or not, then you are not using the AFTL the way it was constructed.

By current AFTL definition, and correct interpretation of its intent, the ORD/AMS is being crewed illegally, unles they have received some sort of dispensation that we are not aware of.

Rookie,

Do not worry there will be no chance of doing 2 crew HKG/CTS/ANC based on the current AFTL, because the correct interpretation does not allow it. :ok:

jed_thrust

21st Jul 2010, 06:15

Ok, one thing at a time.

Do the maths for FRA/HKG via PEK for 2 acclimatised flight crew

Two sector day, departing FRA; Unacclimatised FDP available is 12:15.

Sector time to PEK about 8 hours (I'm guessing). Add one hour for sign-on, add one hour for the turn around and three hours for the flight to HKG gives a total of 13 hours.

How is this do-able with 2 crew?

It's not, but it is just do-able with acclimatised crew (sign-on between 0800 and 1259), which is why so many Euro carriers do it.

It is legal, but a HKG crew could never be acclimatised, and a based crew would never be acclimatised in HKG.

Try working out LON-JNB...

Flap10

21st Jul 2010, 06:39

How is this do-able with 2 crew?

Which is exactly why I said based on an acclimatised crew! And I am not limiting my examples to FRA/PEK/HKG, but other examples such as HKG/CTS/ANC. The point is under Table A and para 15.4 it can be done according to your flawed interpretation. To take the argument further you can even use discretion to return the aircraft back to HKG, so even unacclimatised 2 crew can operate ANC/CTS/HKG or FRA/PEK/HKG.

It is legal, but a HKG crew could never be acclimatised, and a based crew would never be acclimatised in HKG.

For one thing it is not legal to operate two crew beyond six time zones, hence the intent of "...time difference of 6 hours or more between the places where the duty period began and ended"! I am not concerned about what a European carrier is allowed to do, I am concerned with our own AFTL. Why are you asking me to work out LON/JNB when I haven't even seen their AFTL and when we don't even operate that flight..or do we???

I am using a plausible scenario of two crew calling in sick last minute leaving two based crews to operate flight. If it is legal which option do you think CX will opt for, a) cancel flight with obvious damaging consequences and expenses, or b) depart flight with 2 crew and a stopover in PEK. If you have ever operated 2 crew DXB/BOM/HKG on the airbus I won't need to remind you which option CX will choose. If you recall there have been many instances where CX have had to cancel a flight due last minute sickness. They didn't have any other choices.

Adam GoodJob

21st Jul 2010, 09:28

F10,

Only the ULR Ops paragraph considers time-zones. Normal Ops does not mention time-zones - they are not considered - so you can't say that you can't cross 6 time zones 2-man (remember my 89.9 North example - where do you draw the line (of latitude) on that ?).

You only have to consider time-zones if you need 3 or more crew.

Now go and see Mrs Miggins for an exceptionally large pie :}

jed_thrust

21st Jul 2010, 09:42

How about this, then:

Can you conduct the flight under para 15? If you can then great. If you cannot, then you need 3 crew for 13 hours, or 4 crew for 18.

That's in any direction. (For all you know, we may be asked to operate LON-JNB one day - which AFTLs will you use then?)

How many time zones you are away when you finish your duty determines which rest applies - see Table R.

"ULR" is just a name, it doesn't change anything.

And that's it, really.

Flap10

21st Jul 2010, 10:15

Only the ULR Ops paragraph considers time-zones. Normal Ops does not mention time-zones - they are not considered - so you can't say that you can't cross 6 time zones 2-man

Exactly my point! So you actually do believe that it is legal and possible to fly two crew FRA/PEK/HKG??? Nice!!!!!!! That's very logical Adam!!! Two flights with same departure and destination, one crewed with three pilots considered ULR OPS, and another crewed with two pilots considered Normal OPS. Yup that makes a lot of sense!!!! I am glad to see that we are using a logical and commen sense approach in determining the actual intent of the AFTL. Amazes me how you seem to be defending one pattern at the expense of everything else.

(remember my 89.9 North example - where do you draw the line (of latitude) on that ?).

As I've said before it was already drawn at 22 deg North. (Hong Kong)!!!!! Granted these AFTLs are old now, but they were drafted with the base of operation being Hong Kong, NOT Chicago or Amsterdam!

I've said as much as I can say about this subject. If you believe that we were always legal to fly two crew beyond six time zones, then the entire AFTL is flawed as nothing correlates and makes logical sense. Even the Commander Discretion (a legal document) is flawed then.

Well it is your licence on the line. Should the day come and you have to defend your actions for flying two crew half way around the world, you better have a better defence then what you have already presented.

Good Luck, I've already ordered a pie with your name on it from Mrs Miggins!

Flap10

21st Jul 2010, 10:33

Can you conduct the flight under para 15? If you can then great. If you cannot, then you need 3 crew for 13 hours, or 4 crew for 18.

Yes I agree with you, it would make more sense. But you have to keep in mind that 3 crew ULR ops doesn't use Table A or B. You can sign on any time of day and have a max FDP of 13 hours, where as a 3 crew Normal Ops has FDP restrictions based on whether you are acclimatized or unaclimatised. This goes back to my argument where these two tables, inlcuding para 15.4, are exclusive to Normal Ops flight (section 15). They were not meant to be used in conjunction with section 16. Even the old AoA AFTL flow chart was drawn in this manner.

sleeper

21st Jul 2010, 17:07

A message from the northern hemisphere.

Just a thought. All European and North-American airlines fly Chicago - Amsterdam, and numerous other city pairs, like this. All time zone differences of 6 or more hours, with flighttimes less than 8 hours. ALL are done with two pilots, no exceptions. It is not called LH let alone ULH.
The timezone differences will give you more time off in relation to north - south flights, as your circadian rythm will be disturbed.

So, in my humble view, I cannot understand anyone claiming a 7 hour flight a ULR. I think it is a misunderstanding of your AFTL's and that the wording of it need some improvement.

sorvad

21st Jul 2010, 21:18

Bogie 30...well said!...does anyone actually just enjoy the job of being an "Airline Pilot" any more?....see a bit of the world, drink a few beers, chat with a few mates, fly a good jet, come home and enjoy a few days off in the sun with the family!....for f%$ks sake just make the most of what we've got

fire wall

21st Jul 2010, 21:53

sorvad,
The proposed service is hkg-anc-ord-ams-dxb-hkg with all stopovers around 18 hrs duration except hkg and ord which are 50 hrs.
Entire pattern length is planned to be 9 days.
After a trip like such your how do you see your "few days off in the sun with the family" going? I know it will take me a few days of sleeping to get over such and then, given the current crewing problems on the 400, I will have a bob or two that I will be called out to do another one.

As for the previous comments re ULR / 3 man crewing etc, rostering must be wetting themselves at the lack of understanding of the AFTL's (they have only been in existence since '07 !). Some of you are a professional embarrassment.

Observing

21st Jul 2010, 23:14

CX / CAD definitions:

Normal Operation

Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.

Ultra Long Range Operation

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

This is just a definition. Whether or not you consider 6 time
zones or what ever to be “ULTRA”, is irrelevant.

These definitions distinguish Normal ops (standard flight duty periods) from Long haul ops.

It distinguishes the rest/relief facilities required.
It distinguishes the time at controls.
It distinguishes max FDP.
It distinguishes the type of rest one requires following the duty (Normal or physiological)

Does ORD-AMS require 3 or more pilots?

local time of departure (worst case acclimatised crew, 2200-0659):
max FDP is 11 hours;
Sked flt time: say 7:30???? (haven’t looked it up…not logging in..it’s a day off!)
So FDP = 8:30 and sector length = 7:30.
As sector length is < 8 hours, no 3rd pilot required.
As FDP < 11 hours, no 3rd pilot is required.

By definition: this is not an ULR operation as 3 or more pilots are not required, even though there are > 6 time zones crossed.
However as 6 or more time zones were crossed, the crew will require physiological rest,
not normal rest. As they crossed > 3 time zones, they are now Unacclimatised. This will effect their next FDP (table B)

That’s it in a nutshell guys……like it or not.
If you want to refuse the duty….good luck with that.

Dragon69

22nd Jul 2010, 01:34

As for the previous comments re ULR / 3 man crewing etc, rostering must be wetting themselves at the lack of understanding of the AFTL's (they have only been in existence since '07 !). Some of you are a professional embarrassment.

I love these fu&%ers that come here mock others for being a "professional embarrasment" and yet are too **** scared to contribute anything at the risk of being a "professional embarrasment". But already too late..."in existence since '07"????????? hahaha LMAO!!!!!

I must admit I've been following the debate and I am on the fence on this one, interesting points raised by both sides. Has anyone gotten clarification from the 3rd floor?

SQC7991

22nd Jul 2010, 02:40

I find it quite bizarre that some of our crew are having difficulty with this issue. I tried before to simplify the matter but red herrings were raised in response particularly by F10. I’ll try again if I may and hopefully introduce a bit of common sense into the discussion.

The current FTL’s were produced mainly on the assumption that CX predominantly flies East – West on intercontinental flights. Starting/finishing in HKG (22 deg) inevitably means that such flights will be long haul or in CX terminology ULH which is defined as crossing 6 times zones AND long enough to require 3 or more crew. To state the obvious this definition covers most of the long haul flights carried out by CX. However it does not preclude that some flights which do cross more than 6 time zones yet are short enough not to require 3 or more crew can be safely operated under Para 15 Normal Ops. Clearly the ORD-AMS flight is one such sector and does not need to be operated under Para 16 ULH. However because this sector crosses more than 6 time zones the crew must be given physiological rest as per Table R. Someone previously commented that Table R only applies to ULH operations but this is not the case. Table R is published under Para 22 Rest Periods and therefore applies to all flights and not just those operated under Para 16 ULH Flights.

Please guys use some common sense here and stop trying to suggest that 3 crew are required for a 7 hour sector – they are not and never have been.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 03:32

SQ ok I'll bite again!

The current FTL’s were produced mainly on the assumption that CX predominantly flies East – West on intercontinental flights. Starting/finishing in HKG (22 deg) inevitably means that such flights will be long haul or in CX terminology ULH which is defined as crossing 6 times zones AND long enough to require 3 or more crew. To state the obvious this definition covers most of the long haul flights carried out by CX.

I totally agree!

However it does not preclude that some flights which do cross more than 6 time zones yet are short enough not to require 3 or more crew can be safely operated under Para 15 Normal Ops. Clearly the ORD-AMS flight is one such sector and does not need to be operated under Para 16 ULH.

As I was trying to say before, the AFTL was drafted a decade ago, when they did not envision an ORD/AMS pattern. In short ULR WAS NOT defined in such a way as to simply satisfy ONE new pattern and ignore other issues.

I am not arguing that it is not common sense to fly 2 crew ORD/AMS. Yes I agree that the AFTL is completely outaded and poorly worded, it obviously has not kept up with the change in our operation.

But the fact is, by current defenition, and correct LEGAL interpretation of how the AFTL is structured, it DOES NOT allow 2 crew flight beyond six time zones. Otherwise where is the protection to the scenario I presented in my previous posts?????? If you can show me that there is protection in place to prevent 2 crew HKG/CTS/ANC in one duty period, then I will humbly accept your view.

Before this pattern even came to light and crew control said, we need you to operate 2 crew FRA/HKG via PEK....how many of you that think ORD/AMS is legal would have accepted the duty, or would you have said it is illegal????? Be honest! If you think it would have been legal and were prepared to do the flight, and subsequently had to use discretion to return to Hong Kong, how exactly would you have completed the Commander's Discretion form? Would you have altered a legal docmunent by pen to suit the pattern???

If you say cx would rather cancel flights rather than make us work hard, then you will have lost all credibility.

Many of you are re-interpreting the original intent of the definition, and incorrectly using the AFTL by mixing sub-sections and sections to accomodate one lousy pattern, whilst failing to see its affect and consequences in the overall picture. I am sorry but that is not applying common sense.

Furthermore, and granted it is now a moot point due to the recent dispensation, but potentially looking at the worst possible scenario that would have been legally allowed according to your interpretation of the AFTL, we could have effectively flown FRA/PEK/HKG on one duty period, min rest in HKG, and then same 2 crew continues to HKG/CTS/ANC on another duty period. Obviously 16.1 (max time zone crossed in 1 duty cycle) clearly applied to ULR OPS and not to Normal OPS. Hence the above scenario would have been perfectly legal and circadian rhytm a non issue.

And here we are all seemingly worried about potentially doing 3 crew to Europe, when all along according to some of you it was perfectly legal to fly it 2 crew. :confused::confused::confused:

I have yet to see anyone properly counter argue my point.

The AFTL was writen based on the operation we had at the time or going to have in the planned future. It wasn't writen in a way to cover every unforseen pattern. Having an 8hr FDP and crossing six time zones did not even enter their minds. At the time flying 2 crew and crossing 6 time zones was a given that it couldn't even be done, because it was asummed that the FDP would automatically be too long for 2 crew. Hence it was never formely or properly addressed.

Ok I am not biting anymore unless there is something new to the debate, we seem to be going around in circles.

CIAO

positionalpor

22nd Jul 2010, 05:17

AA flies ORD - AMS 3 men crw.
On a different note, my august roster is disgusting to say the least.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 05:25

Some interesting arguments, however, I agree that two crew can operate this sector quite legally within the AFTLs.

Two crew can operate a scheduled sector length of up to 9 hours, provided the sector does not extend through or end within the period 0200-0559 Local Time at the place where the FDP commenced, in which case the maximum would be 8 hours. It DOES NOT matter whether the flight is north/south, east/west or how many time zones it crosses. As others have already stated, crossing six or more time zones only affects the rest requirements.

The definition of an ULR operation is one 'requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes'. That does not mean that any operation which crosses six or more time zones is automatically ULR. The operation must also require three or more pilots to qualify as ULR.

So what determines the number of pilots required? The AFTLS do not say that three or more pilots are required in order to cross six or more time zones. The starting point to determine the number of pilots required is the Standard FDP tables (ie Table A & B) in Section 15 (Normal Operations), together with the Legstretch requirements in Para 15.4. If those requirements can be satisfied with two pilots, then the operation is not ULR. If, however, the requirements cannot be satisfied with two pilots and the operation crosses six or more time zones, then by definition the operation does qualify as ULR, and the provisions of Section 16 (Ultra Long Range Operations) then apply.

Some people seem to be putting the cart before the horse!

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 05:35

Buzz,

It is you who are putting the cart before the horse.

The starting point.....Legstretch requirements in Para 15.4

So you are using a legstrech requirement to define a long haul flight in a long haul airplane that must have bunks ( look at para 12.2) ???

Para 13.1: On NORMAL OPERATION when an additional flight crew member is boarded in accordance with 15.4 either a bunk, or a comfortable reclining seat.....will be provided....

In-Flight Relief Facilities (section 12) defines what you need for long haul flight and is clearly distinct and seperate from Legstrech Facilities (section 13) which only applies to NORMAL OPS

I honestly give up!

Good day!

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 05:48

I honestly give up!

Good, because you're wrong!

So you are using a legstrech requirement to define a long haul flight...?

No. If an operation requires a third pilot by virtue of Para 15.4 AND that flight crosses six or more time zones, then by definition it becomes an ULR operation and the appropriate in-flight rest facilities must be provided.

Consider two scenarios:

Scenario 1 - MEL-HKG, with a sector length of 9:30:
A third pilot must be boarded to satisfy Para 15.4, however, only 2 (or 3) time zones will be crossed, so only Legstretch facilities are required.

Scenario 2 - HKG-ANC, with a sector length of 10:00:
A third pilot must be boarded to satisfy Para 15.4, however, as more than 6 time zones will be crossed, the operation is defined as ULR and appropriate in-flight rest facilities (ie bunks) must be provided.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 05:56

I'll be sure to advise the people on the 3rd floor to ammend 13.1 to read;

On Normal Operations AND Ultra long Range Operation when an additional Flight Crew member is boarded in accordance with 15.4..."

Sorry comment removed.

Your second scenario is wrong. You don't arrive at three because it meets para 15.4 but because it crosses 6 time zones. Para 15.4 legstrech doesn't say one or more pilots musr be boarded, it only says one additional crew member required. So how do you apply it to the case where 4 crew are required for a ulh flight?

Problem is as soon as you interpret the definition to suit a single pattern, you create loopholes and cracks in the rest of the aftl and have to re-interpret every other section just to suit your argument.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 06:33

Now I can see why we have been dubbed million dollar morrons.

Quite.

By the way, what's a 'morron'?

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 07:34

F10,
If an additional crew member is required (ie total 3), and you cross more than 6 time zones...it is an ULR op. if the FDP will exceed 13 Hours, then you will need another additional crew member (total 4) to achieve a max FDP of 18 hours.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 07:48

You don't arrive at three because it meets para 15.4 but because it crosses 6 time zones.

Sorry, but where does it say you need three pilots because you cross 6 time zones?

So how do you apply it to the case where 4 crew are required for a ulh flight?

Three pilots are required either because of the leg stretch requirement, or because of the need to extend the normal FDP using in-flight rest. If the operation also crosses more than 6 time zones then it is defined as ULR, the provisions of Section 16 apply and the maximum FDP becomes 13 hours, regardless of time of start, etc. If that's not sufficient, then four pilots must be boarded and the maximum FDP becomes 18 hours.

SQC7991

22nd Jul 2010, 08:16

F10 Seems you're the only one going round in circles. In answer to your points made to me regarding my last post - in order:

Don’t follow your logic – If they didn’t envisage flying shorter sectors through 6 or more time zones then why didn’t they just say ULH is more than 2 crew OR 6 time zones? It isn’t ONE new pattern these rules apply to any short sectors crossing 6 time zones. Now we have taken the first step across the Atlantic don’t you think there are more of these sectors in the pipeline? Some will be 2 man JFK-BRU etc or 3 man LAX/IAH/DFW - Europe

Who are you agreeing with? I don’t think nor have I said the FTL is completely outdated in fact I think quite the opposite.

This is your mistaken opinion not fact. The FTL’s do allow crossing 6 time zones with 2 crew providing the sector is short enough as is obvious to any one reading them properly.

This is a bizarre example to use as is HKG-CTS-ANC. Take FRA-PEK-HKG - current flight time non stop is approx 10hrs 38 minutes, add in an extra stop of at least 1hr 30 plus the diversion time and you would be looking at an FDP of around 14 hrs 30. How can this be accomplished with 2 crew? Same applies to HKG-CTS-ANC – current non stop flt time approx 10 hrs add in the stop in CTS at 1h 30m plus the diversion time and we get an FDP of 14 hours. Even if it were possible to do this sort of stuff and stay within the allowed FDP why would the company wish to risk an aircraft getting stuck halfway to it’s destination, pay additional fuel costs, engineering costs and navigation fees just to avoid putting a third crew member on board. It just doesn’t make any commercial sense which is why it is never done. Can you now see why your imagined scenario has not and will not happen?

This is not one lousy pattern – why do you think it is? No one is picking and choosing between sub-sections there are three paragraphs been discussed here – Para 15 Normal Ops, Para 16 ULH Ops and Para 22 Rest Periods. Para 22 applies to both Normal and ULH operations and table R within Para 22 has to be applied as appropriate to Normal Rest or Physiological Rest. Nowhere is the term ULH used under Physiological Rest it merely states time difference between duty start and finish is 6 hours or more. If nothing else this alone should be enough to convince you that you are interpreting the entire FTL incorrectly.

Your final paragraph aint worth an answer.

This reply was to your post as was and not before you edited what you originally said.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 08:27

Observing,

Para 15.4 is used solely to protect extended flights with two crew under normal ops. Hence it is a sub-section of section 15 and hence the reason for calling it LEGSTRECH. It was never ever meant to be used to determine whether a flight is normal ops or ulr ops. If its role is so crucial why not put it before section 15 or section 16.

Furthermore if you believe that ulr is exclusive to 3/4 crew and six time zones, then all of you believe that two crew europe and north america with an intermediate transit stop was always legal. So next time an s/o or f/o go sick in FRA, instead of cancelling the flight, cc can make the third pilot px and the flight now can go normal ops 2 crew with a transit stop in PEK. You won't have a leg to stand on when you argue with cc. They'll say it is all legal.

SQC7991

22nd Jul 2010, 09:03

F10 the max permissible FDP with 2 sectors ranges from 10h 15m to 13h.15m from Table A and 12h 15 mins from Table B so how can 2 crew possibly do what you are suggesting? Please read my post above for further clarification.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 09:11

So next time an s/o or f/o go sick in FRA, instead of cancelling the flight, cc can make the third pilot px and the flight now can go normal ops 2 crew with a transit stop in PEK.

And how, exactly, could they do that? For a start, FRA-BJS is over 9 hours (check the Lufthansa website if you don't believe me), so can't be done with two pilots. Even if the sector time from FRA-BJS could be reduced to just under 9 hours, with a 1 hour stopover (doubtful in BJS!), another 3:35 from BJS-HKG, the total FDP would be at least 14:35. The maximum two-sector FDP for 2 acclimatised crew is only 13:15.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 10:17

First of all the AFTL is not a ala carte menu where you can pick and choose certain sub-sections and apply it to a completely different section. It is a legally binding document that has been carefully and correctly categorized and itemized. If a section has to make reference to another, it will be clearly annotated, such as notwithstanding xx.x, or under the provision of xx.x, etc.

Secondly I don't receive my flight information from a Lufthansa web site. I have done enough FRA/HKG in my time to know that it would be quite possible to do FRA/PEK/HKG, and don't even mention HKG/CTS/ANC. Bear in mind that because this is a 2 crew normal ops flight we can extend the duty by an additonal 3 hours through the use of discretion to return an aircraft to HKG. Hey it is you guys that seem to think that time zone changes has no relevance with 2 crew operation, I am just applying what you would normally do when flying around the region. And if you think that you would not be able to do FRA/PEK/HKG with an FDP of 16+15, then there is something seriously wrong with your maths. If you think that Cathay would rather cancel a flight and incure the heavy expense and knock-on effect than risk the airplane getting stuck in PEK, then you obviously have not done the middle of the night scheduled BALI turn around with FIFTEEN minutes to spare on max FDP. Also 1+30 transit time???? A fuel stop in TPE from LAX and airborne again was achieved in less than 40 minutes. So please spare me the BS!

The fact is you would love to rebuff my point not to be proven wrong. Your interpretation, although it would satisfy 1 pattern, it would disprove everything else within the AFTL and your point about circadian rythm being at the centre of this AFTL. Your interpretation can never work because it would make flying half way around the world and beyond 2 crew completely legal. Instead of arguing the math argue the point. How is it possible for a flight to be deemed ULR ops because it carries 3/4 crew and the same flight deemed normal ops because it all of a sudden has 2 crew? This has never been the intent of the AFTL!

If you think the ORD/AMS is legal then there is absolutely NOTHING in the AFTL to prevent my scenario of 2 crew to Europe or North America with a transit stop. Yes it doesn't make it commercially feasible, but it certainly is an arsenal that CX can use if faced with desperation.

Let me ask the forum;

DO YOU THINK FLYING 2 CREW FRA/PEK/HKG or HKG/CTS/ANC IS CURRENTLY LEGAL?

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 10:45

Normal Operation

Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.

Ultra Long Range Operation

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of
six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

ORD – AMS

Flt Time 7:00
Block Time 7:30
FDP 8:30

worst case: sign-on 2200 – 0659: Max FDP 11:00
(No other max FDP is shorter than this Acclimatised / Unacclimatised)

Sector length is < 8 Hours – No 3rd pilot required.
This is a Normal Operation, not ULR.
Crew will need Physiological Rest before next sector.

AKL – HKG,

Flt Time = 11:40
Block Time say 12:10 ish
FDP = 13:10
Winter sign on1320L (Assuming Acclimatised Crew)
MAX FDP (Table A): 13:00
Sector Length > 9 Hours – 3rd Pilot required, but can’t be legstretch as exceeds 13:00.
FDP is extended by use of Inflight Relief facilities, can’t be legstretch facilities.
min 3 hours rest (bunk or appropriate seat) required to extend FDP.
As there are only 5 time zones crossed, this is not a ULR, Just a Normal Op where FDP is extended using Inflight Rest.
Normal rest applies before their next sector.
As they are now Unacclimatised – Table B governs their next Max FDP (unless their next sector is an ULR op of course, then 13 or 18)

HKG – ANC,

Flt Time = 9:45
Block time = 10:00
FDP = 11:00
Sector length > 9 hours, - 3rd pilot required
> 6 hours time difference
This sector is an ULR op (refer definition).
Max FDP = 13:00

I agree it may be confusing, but this is it….like it or not.

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 10:53

F10,

This will make a great discussion on your next line check.

Good Luck!

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 10:58

Observing,

Have you ever filled out a Commander's Discretion Form? There is no offence in the question, I want to point out that it uses a flow chart to help you complete the form. The flow chart does not use para 15.4 to help you determine which direction to proceed. The only distinguishing factor between ULR Ops and Normal Ops as you complete the form is the time zone change. Remember this is a legal document that has been approved by the CAD.

As I've said if para 15.4 was so crucial it would not have been defined as a Legstrech requirement, it would have been THE item you would refer to first. But it is not written this way, otherwise it skews the entire structure of the AFTL.

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 11:16

F10,

The CDR is just a piece of paper which depicts and justifies why a FDP exceeded the maximum. There endith the legality of it.

It is not the reference for FTL's. Ops Manual Part A is.

If you follow the arrow below the ULH box, you only have 2 choices.
STANDARD FDP 3 PILOTS
STANDARD FDP 4 PILOTS

There is no option for 2 pilots because then it would not be ULR.

The form may be a little misleading, but it ain't the rule book.
(Fill out a manual CAR......work that out in 5 mins!)

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 11:30

Bear in mind that because this is a 2 crew normal ops flight we can extend the duty by an additonal 3 hours through the use of discretion to return an aircraft to HKG.

Bollocks! With one exception, Discretion can ONLY be used to extend an FDP in the event of delays AFTER the FDP has already commenced. The exception applies when the required number of pilots is reduced from 4 to 3, and is not applicable in this case. Discretion CANNOT be scheduled to enable this kind of operation, as you are suggesting.

By the way, while a 40 minute turnaround might be perfectly achievable in TPE, I would suggest that achieving the same in BJS is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 11:33

The CDR is just a piece of paper which depicts and justifies why a FDP exceeded the maximum. There endith the legality of it.

HUH???? :confused::confused::confused:

You can just as easily justify the exceedance throug a written explanation. It wasn't Joe Blow that made the form during lunch hours. It is a thought out form to simplify the completion, but to also reflect the AFTL in every way. We are talking about a form that can be admitted in court as evidence. It is not just a piece of paper!

Basically it is impossible for you to complete the form the way you are interpreting the AFTL.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 11:37

Basically it is impossible for you to complete the form the way you are interpreting the AFTL.

More bollocks!

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 11:45

F10,

Yes, the form is a legal document.
It contains the justification as to why the Max FDP was exceeded using discretion. That's all it is.

PART A is the legal FTL document for CX crew.
Not the CDR.

Starting to flog a dead horse here.
You should probably make it a discussion point on your next line check.
Maybe then you will be convinced.:ok:

O

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 11:49

OK Mr. Bollocks grab one and fill it out after completing ORD/AMS. What's going to happen when there has been extensive ground delays in ORD followed by extensive holding delays in AMS and you have to use discretion.

Where have I made reference to the fact that discretion can be used prior to a scheduled flight????? I was arguing that any delays in PEK can be easily overcome by the use of discretion.

Why don't you answer me Buzz, forget the math, does the AFTL allow us to fly FRA/PEK/HKG two crew????

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 12:04

F10,

refer Part A:

Normal Operation

Any operation other than an Ultra Long Range operation.

Ultra Long Range Operation

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of
six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

Discretion report for ext of FDP
Choice 1 – Normal Operation
Choice 2 ULR (ULH – old forms)

If it is not ULR (see Definition) it is a Normal Operation –(see definition).
The form is easily filled out….if you are that way inclined!
You NEVER have to use discretion.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 12:16

Not a single person has answered my question about whether the AFTL allows 2 crew operation from/to Europe and North America in one duty period. You won't because you know very well that it will automatically disprove everything you have been saying. So I will answer for you as my last post.

If you answer YES than it doesn't make logical sense since you cannot have a ULR flight converted to a normal ops flight by the use of 2 crew. The AFTL was never writen with that intent.

If you answer NO then obviously ORD/AMS is crewed illegally.

You see it all comes right back to the way the AFTL was writen.

6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!

Observing

22nd Jul 2010, 12:36

6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!

Well, it’s settled then F10.
Enjoy that next line check.
Stick to ya guns mate.

Why don't you do all the leg work for the scenario's you want, and put the flt times, block times etc up.
(I can't be bothered)

Then let's refer to Part A.

BuzzBox

22nd Jul 2010, 12:45

What's going to happen when there has been extensive ground delays in ORD followed by extensive holding delays in AMS and you have to use discretion.

An operation is either Normal or it's ULR, as defined by the AFTLS, not by the CDR form. Although the CDR form refers to a time zone change of 6 hours or more, that is not the only criteria for defining an ULR operation. The operation must also require 3 or more pilots, otherwise it's not ULR.

How do you decide if the operation requires 3 or more pilots? By first checking to see if the it can be completed under Normal Operations with two pilots. If not, and the time change is 6 hours or more, then and only then is the operation defined as ULR. It's not ULR simply because the time change is 6 hours or more.

In the case of ORD/AMS, it's a Normal operation, so you would fill out the Normal Operations side of the CDR form in the event that discretion was necessary.

To answer your question, no the AFTLS do not allow two crew to fly FRA-BJS-HKG, simply because two crew could not do it within the maximum FDP.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 13:00

To answer your question, no the AFTLS do not allow two crew to fly FRA-BJS-HKG, simply because two crew could not do it within the maximum FDP.

Are you even with Cathay??? We never refer to Beijing as BJS, it is PEK!

So no because of FDP restrictions and not because of actual AFTL rule???

Come on Buzz you are beating around the bush here. Ok then what about Hong Kong, Sapporo, Anchorage??? That is well within an FDP of 13+15, no matter how much you argue??

SQC7991

22nd Jul 2010, 14:01

F10 Give it up mate. Lots of people have taken the time to straighten you out but you just can't see it even though it's as clear as dog's bollox.

Re your last attempt to float another red herring. Why do you think HKG-CTS-ANC is possible with 2 crew? Todays 580 had a flight time of 4h 30m and a block time of 5h so let's say you get turned around in 1h you're already 7h 10 mins into your FDP (assuming you blocked off on time in HKG) before you've even taxied in CTS not even half way to ANC. So no it can't be done and even if it could why is it so important to your understanding of the FTL's? It's completely irrelevant.

That's me done and good luck with your LC if you still haven't got the FTL's squared away by then.

Flap10

22nd Jul 2010, 14:24

yes I didn't realize ANC was a 16 hour flight......I meant flying to ANC eastward not westward mate!!!!! Nor am I talking about flying a little turboprop.

Doesn't matter what time you block off from HKG since you can use discretion at that point, but again shows your complete lack of understanding of the AFTL.

The relevance is that your interpretation allows 2 crew to cross an unlimited number of time zones within 1 duty period.

Excuse me, but you and three others arguing on a forum doesn't make you right mate!!!!....Worry about your own line check.

SMOC

22nd Jul 2010, 14:37

6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!

CX is looking at a freight trip from ANC to Scoresbysund Airport (OBY) in Greenland, it's just over 5 hrs flight time.

8 time zones, thus ULR. :eek:

Q.E.D. quod erat demonstrandum

Dragon69

22nd Jul 2010, 17:17

SMOC to be fair to Flaps10 what he means is that there is no protection in place, or nothing specified for long range two crew operation. Hypothetically speaking what if CX were looking at continuing that service ( ANC to Scoresbysund Airport (OBY) in Greenland) to Rome Fiumicino utilizing same 2 crew. Haven't worked out numbers so not sure if it can be done within 2 crew FDP, but assuming it can, that is total of 10 hour time zone change. As much as you are taking the piss, that is a seriously long duty for two pilots, and crossing way too many time zones. To boot the two poor sods most likely operated from Hong Kong the day before with min rest in Anchorage and body clock somewhere between Hong Kong and God knows where. Just maybe there is some relevance in what he is trying to say. Would be hard to define the above flight as "normal". All I can say thank god I am not on the 400 :}

Peter613

22nd Jul 2010, 18:33

6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!

You are correct Flaps10.

It is true the AFTLS was written for East-West ops. Whether it makes sense for north-south patterns is another matter. ULH in the AFTLS is and always has been defined by time zone alone.

This new interpretation is a try-on by the company. Unfortunately they appear to have 'sold' this new interpretation with some success as evidenced by various posts on this forum.

Loopdeloop

22nd Jul 2010, 19:42

OK, more thorough people than I have tried and probably now given up, but here goes:

Peter
If "ULH in the AFTLS is and always has been defined by time zone alone."
why does part A state
"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes"? (Please note the absence of the word "or" in that sentence).
and not simply
"An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."

Flaps10
I'll answer your question about FRA-BJS-HKG (or PEK if you prefer!)
Yes, it may be operated by 2 crew if the sector/FDP limits can be achieved.

Observing

23rd Jul 2010, 00:14

Peter,

All I am sold on is what is written in PART A.
Not what’s on the discretion report and most definitely not what I read on pprune.

I am pretty sure that when I joined, UL(H) was defined as 6 hours time zone change only? There have been 2 RP agreements since then.
It appears the definition has subtly changed; perhaps during those agreements, or in one of those amendments that piled up in the mail box?
For one thing…it’s now called Ultra Long Range Ops.

Regardless, we are bound by Part A.
If we need protection from ridiculous sector pairings to achieve ULR with 2 pilots, then this will have to sorted in future RP agreements.

Perhaps in desperation, C/Ctl may “give it a go”. As pointed out, if it falls within the FTLs, what is to stop them?

At the end of the day, this discussion has boiled down to what is acceptable or not with regards to ULR and the use of 2 pilots.

Part A FTLs are specifically clear. If we want protection, then we have to get it changed.
The AOA is only way that can happen. The stronger the membership, the best chance we have in influencing changes.

For an extended post on FTLs, not one word about this in the RP thread in the AOA forums.....Probably a better place for it.

I am not passing judgment on non-members, but they are wasting their time posting here......they have no voice at all.
For a couple of beers a month, give it ago, and have a say...or better still run for the GC. There are some major negotiations coming up.
(Yeah...I know....wasting my time):ugh:

jed_thrust

23rd Jul 2010, 02:11

Once more unto the breach....

6 TIME ZONES ALWAYS DEFINED ULR OPS PERIOD!!!!!!!

No, it hasn't. You must also REQUIRE 3 or more crew. Read the ATFLs again.

In 10 words or less, can you please tell me which para, table or section stipulates - on its own - that a 7 hour flight REQUIRES 3 crew?

Dragon69

23rd Jul 2010, 02:24

Observing

All I am sold on is what is written in PART A.
Not what’s on the discretion report and most definitely not what I read on pprune.

At the end of the day what boils down to in a court of law in reference to any agreement is what the intent of the agreement is. Any wording is open to interpretation, but what was it trying to achieve? Remember the recent interpretation to the Basing Policy agreement?

So what is the AFTL trying to achieve, well the objective of the scheme is clear; "...will enable them to operate to a satisfactory level of efficiency and safety in all normal and abnormal situations." and "concerned solely with the prevention of fatigue and the maintenance of vigilance in flight".Amongst other factors it then considers "The effect of consecutive transmeridian flights."

Circadian rhythm and crossing multiple time zones was a defining factor in the definition of ULH and the need to have additional crew, this we can all agree on. Therefore, and this is just my opinion, you woud have a very difficult time to show the court that the intent of the AFTL was to always allow 2 crew to operate through multiple time zones unrestricted.

That's my take on it, regardless, we need to get this clarified ASAP.

Jed,

Not sure if he ever said that a 7hr flight requires 3 crew. I believe he is saying that his interpretation of the definition of ULH will ensure that 2 crew cannot be used to operate trips like the ones previously mentioned.

What I am surprised with, is his intrepretation offers the most protection, and yet many of you so called AoA members are quick to pounce to the benefit of the company. Hence the reason why I left the AoA! :ok::ok:

Waterskier

23rd Jul 2010, 06:43

"An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes"? (Please note the absence of the word "or" in that sentence).
and not simply
"An operation involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes."

I'll bite... the reason it says requiring 3 or more pilots is because ultra long range can't be done by a two pilot crew... its describing section 16 which only allows 3 or 4 pilots (and not 2)

Just out of curiosity, anyone know if the definition was different while the Classic was around? Because based upon that defition, a Classic could never be ULR...

An operation by a Two Crew Aircraft requiring three or more pilots involving a time difference of six hours or more between the places where the Duty Period starts and finishes.

The question is "requiring 3 or more pilots" describing ultra long range (in section 16, 3 or more pilots are required) or is it a condition to be met to categorized as ULR.

Because until I know which type it is (Normal or ULR) I don't know how many crew are required. Some say well go to table A/B to find out, but then you have to make the assumption its Normal Ops and not ULR.

At the end of the day, I'm sure its safe, but perhaps an issue to look at in the next RP and AFTLs.

Flap10

23rd Jul 2010, 09:37

Because until I know which type it is (Normal or ULR) I don't know how many crew are required. Some say well go to table A/B to find out, but then you have to make the assumption its Normal Ops and not ULR.

EXACTLY Waterskier!

It's unbelievable, many here have become so fixated and hung up on the wording that they fail to see the BIG picture. Almost like tunnel vision!

Some have gone as far as to discount the commander's discretion form or put very little importance to it. It is a legal document that follows exactly the same logical format and sequence as the aftl. It is THE form that you submit to the CAD.

Some have gone as far as to pretend that we were always legal to fly 2 crew east or west, cross a number of time zones using max fdp.

We protested to no end when CAD approved two crew middle of the night sector from Aus, to the point where we had SCMP write an article of how dangerous and unsafe it was, and now you'll happily accept a HKG.CTS.ANC in one duty period with 13+ hr fdp????? Honestly have you guys become that stupid!!!

Anyway it is no use, you guys are befitting of the term button pushers, because it is obvious that you cannot apply any lateral thought.

SMOC you thought you were being smug with your example, didn't seem so funny when dragon pointed out what could happen.

Dragon69

23rd Jul 2010, 12:34

Folks,

We recently were granted variation to the AFTL, specifically for ORD/AMS. The variation allows crossing of more than 12 time zones from home base.

The only section where there is a limit to maximum time zone crossed in any one duty cycle is in section 16.1, the first item under section 16 ULTRA LONG RANGE OPS.

If you stubborn chaps are so adamant that ORD/AMS is not a ULR OPS, why would there have been a need to appply for a variation???? If ORD/AMS meets the definition of Normal OPS then section 16.1 would not apply.

The fact that they have applied variation to 16.1 for ORD/AMS should without a doubt prove that it is a ULR OPS. Now question is, how can they crew it 2 crew without a further variation?????:confused::confused:

SMOC

23rd Jul 2010, 13:15

didn't seem so funny when dragon pointed out what could happen

It already is!

Dragon's example is easy compared to some of the crap CXFs fly already. CX -400Fs are flying 2 and 3 sectors up to max FDP all over the place, and where it's fallen over because of delays and crews not going into discretion they roster a leg stretch. ie. MIA-IAH-ANC which used to be 2 crew.

Other shockers on our back door.
HKG-KIX-ICN-HKG px last sector.
HKG-DAC-HAN-HKG px last sector.
HKG-CGK-SGN-HKG px last sector. I got called out on reserve for this, was a casual 17:30 duty !!!!!!!

The point is the whole time zone thing is flawed as the further north and south of the equator you fly (in an east/west direction) the more time zones you are able to cross in a single FDP.

SMOC

23rd Jul 2010, 13:31

Dragon good point, however what about a ORD based crew? They won't hit the 12 time zones limit till they leave Dubai on the way to HK? and they will have to go ULR from HKG to ANC/YVR/SFO, which they would be unable to do with the 12 time zone rule.

Have any HK crew been rostered for it? Could it be the HKG-ANC ULR pattern within the duty cycle that the 12 hour dispensation was required?

I think it points to how poorly written the AFTLs are, to much grey for CX to maneuver in.

Flap10

24th Jul 2010, 03:32

HAHAHAHA.........****!ing good one Dragon. Would love to see how they'll twist this one around.

All these guys are now scrambling to delete their posts, and no surprise that not ONE has been man enough to come and admit that they were wrong! Hey SQ what was it that you said to me??? "but you just can't see it even though it's as clear as dog's bollox" I guess you must have a chiwawa, because your dog's bollox obviously aint that visible!

And to your idiotic comment about "Lots of people have taken the time to straighten you". Just because you have more people on a forum that argue a point DOESN'T make the point correct.

And last but not least....HEY ADAM you out there???? Your pie is ready, and guess what, Mrs Miggins is away, MISTER Miggins is waiting for you to serve it with style. :eek:

To all those dumb asses that just would not listen to me and kept arguing through stupid logic I have one thing to say to you;

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k239/bobzero/My%20Photo%20Album/givingthefinger.jpg

Peter613

24th Jul 2010, 10:52

Well said Flap10.
Some real eye-opener posts from some real amateur pilots in this thread.
Management just love it.
Thanks for your input.

SQC7991

24th Jul 2010, 11:30

F10 I thought you were just a bit dim but you're obviously just a troll stirring the pot for the fun of it. Nothing that has been said on this thread changes what I and several others pointed out earlier on. The variation is not needed for a particular sector but for any crew proceeding around the world when that crew eventually crosses 12 time zones in the same duty cycle. You do not need three crew to operate a single 7 hour sector regardless of how many time zones you cross. Nobody has said you can operate HKG-CTS-ANC - I pointed out that the FDP allowed was not long enough - you sarcastically suggested I was using a Turboprop disregarding the fact that the sectors could not be flown legally. Nobody would ever use discretion in a situation like so I'm very surprised you even mentioned it.

If the flight is long enough to require 3 or more crew and crosses more than six time zones it is defined as ULR.

If it crosses more than six time zones but isn't long enough to require three or more crew it isn’t.
If you need to check the legality of the rostered duty you check in Para 15 and if it requires a third crew member you can check Para 12 and Para 13 but if it needs 3 or more crew and crosses 6 time zones you look in Para 16 – easy right!

That's what it says and no amount of wishful thinking, re-interpretation of what was originally meant or bull**** such as you spout is going to change that. They may well amend the document and change one or two things such as moving 16.1 into a paragraph of its own as it applies to a single duty pattern not a particular sector which is why someone posting earlier got confused. Is 16.1 actually required anyway? Once you’ve passed 12 time zones you’re now on the way back to where you started from – so does it really matter if you proceed in the same direction or turn around and go back the way you came - any thoughts?

Incidentally this is not about supporting/not supporting management as some suggest but just pointing out the obvious to some who refuse to see it.

Dragon69

24th Jul 2010, 12:13

Nobody has said you can operate HKG-CTS-ANC - I pointed out that the FDP allowed was not long enough

Actually I didn't believe it could be done either until I checked the figures, HKG-CTS-ANC B744 CI 250 on a winter schedule with min transit time can be achieved within normal ops fdp. The point is not whether or not certain airport pairings can be achieved within 2 crew fdp, the point is your intrepretation allows it. F10 is correct, if you use para15.4 to determine if it is ULR or Normal it does create more ambiguity and loopholes everywhere else and as Waterskier smartly pointed out the "..requiring three or more.." is not a condition that has to be met to define ULR rather it is stating the obvious that any ULR will have three or more pilots.

Someone previously asked where in AFTL does it state that you need 3 pilots for a 7 hour flight. It doesn't, that's just it! You are arguing as if there is something spefically written in the AFTL that says a 7 hour flight must be flown with 2 pilots it doesn't! It is perfectally legal with 3, but flying a ULR with 2 pilots is most certainly illegal.

Nobody would ever use discretion in a situation like so I'm very surprised you even mentioned it.

Are you certain about this?

The variation is not needed for a particular sector

You're wrong the variation is quite clear and specific. It says "..on specific flights between Chicago and Amsterdam."

If it was a carte blanche variation there would have been an amendment to section 16.

They may well amend the document and change one or two things such as moving 16.1 into a paragraph of its own as it applies to a single duty pattern not a particular sector which is why someone posting earlier got confused

The argument is not about your interpretation based on how and when they are going to amend the AFTL. The argument from the start has been about the interpretation based on the current AFTL whether ORD/AMS is ULR or not. I wasn't a believer at first but now I am.

You can argue to your heart's content, but I am afraid Peter and F10 were correct all along :D:D I am pulling the pin before I get drawn further into this vortex.

SMOC man you have some rough patterns :sad:.

SQC7991

24th Jul 2010, 13:00

Thanks for your reply also belated thanks to F10 for showing us a piccie of his wife.

You may be reading into the FTL exactly what you wish to but it doesn't change what is actually stated which, at the risk of flogging a dead horse, you do not need three or more crew for a flight which crosses more than six time zones unless the sector length is such that three or more crew are required. Only then do you need the extra crew and the rest facilities as defined in Para 12. By your interpretation we couldn't operate an A330 between ORD-AMS because it doesn't have bunks which is clearly absurd. The entire reasoning behind the 3 or more crew and crossing 6 time zones is that a sector length which requires extending the FDP by in-flight rest can only be done on an aircraft fitted with bunks. Are you telling us that we can't fly a 7 hour sector in an aircraft not fitted with bunks? The drafters of the FTL's have taken all this into account and have come up with a pretty good set of rules which some people are now saying are ambiguous which they are not.

The dispensation cannot apply to a sector as Para 16.1 refers to a single duty cycle not a sector. If it be a HKG based crew operating ORD-AMS then the 12 hour zone will be crossed on that sector. However a Chicago based crew won't get there until DXB-HKG so your reasoning is flawed. I do admit though that the variation contains the wording Chicargo (sic)-Amsterdam and this is obviously a mistake. The position where 12 time zones will be crossed depends on where the crew are based and not on a particular sector. Maybe someone should be sorting this out if they are going to continue using USA based crew on this pattern.

Dragon69

24th Jul 2010, 13:26

Are you telling us that we can't fly a 7 hour sector in an aircraft not fitted with bunks?

No we do it everyday!

By your interpretation we couldn't operate an A330 between ORD-AMS because it doesn't have bunks which is clearly absurd.

Has isn't been stated before that the AFTL was originally drafted with ULH flight betwee HKG-XXX and XXX-HKG. You are trying to apply logic and reasoning to an outdated AFTL to try and cater ORD/AMS, which it clearly was not designed to do. So yes clearly there needs to be changes, and yes, as absurd as it is, unless a dispensation is granted you would need a bunk. Just like the dispensation they receive to ferry a new A330 to Hong Kong. But how hard would it be to get a dispensation for your scenario. As a matter of fact, trying to confirm this, but I have been told that they have received a dispensation to operate 2 crew ORD/AMS. If it is true that will be the nail in the coffin for this debate.

The dispensation cannot apply to a sector as Para 16.1 refers to a single duty period not a sector.

SQ, are you now arguing the contents of a CAD letter??

This debate has run its course SQ, it is clear that both sides won't budge or persuade the other that they are correct. You are extremely confident of your interpretation, good for you! Follow your own advice and on your line check you shouldn't have any problems answering AFTL questions.

Go ahead have the last say and yes she is a real beauty :}

SQC7991

24th Jul 2010, 13:42

I amended my post to clarify what it actually says in the dispensation which seems to be a mistake as US based crews will be crossing 12 time zones but not on the ORD-AMS sector.

The intent is clear though which is to waive the 12 time zone rule which is why I originally stated the actual sector where this happens is not terribly relevant. It's almost bed time in ANC for my HKG body so goodnight.

747-8

24th Jul 2010, 17:14

SQC I reckon you're right - it seems pretty clear to me that the 3 or more crew and more than 6 time zone requirements both have to be met before a sector can be defined as ULR. ULR means 3 crew for a 13hr FDP or 4 crew for an 18 hr FDP and the aircraft must have bunks so pretty obvious that a 7 hour sector doesn't fit into this definition despite crossing more than 6 time zones.

The first ORD-AMS was done by a N American based captain so he didn't require a dispensation to cross more than 12 time zones on the ORDAMS sector. He would have crossed 12 time zones on the DXBHKG sector so was there a screw up somewhere? Will they re-issue the dispensation to reflect what is happening or can they get away with saying the dispensation applies to all sectors on the rotation which includes the ORDAMS sector?

sorvad

25th Jul 2010, 21:31

any of you chaps ever stop to think that despite everything, maybe you've actually got quite a good job?.........INCOMING!

Flap10

26th Jul 2010, 14:09

So after 5 pages of debate, the only thing that needed to get the point across was the use of big font! How silly of me!

Good luck explaining that one to CAD........Discretion out of HK????

It is obvious with your exceptional knowledge of the AFTL, and in particular section 24, that we are at a complete disadvantage when it comes to arguing AFTL issues with you.

Thanks for the input, really!

SQ and 747-8

So your main justification that ORD/AMS cannot be ULR, is the fact that it is simply absurd for a 7hrs flight, regardless of time zone crossings, to be deemed ULR. (It is absurd and therefore cannot be). But what you are completely oblivious to is the fact that if there had been a return sector (AMS/ORD), the flight would have had a sector of 8hrs (night flight) and hence requiring 3 pilots (check the archived CFPs and the average tail-wind component). Even by your own interpretation and admission of the definition of ULR, the flight would be deemed as ULR and therefore requiring all the criterias as specified in section 12 (A BUNK).

Interesting that what you perceive as absurd, and not absurd is separated by a mere 1 hour. Same sector eastbound is Normal Ops and Westbound is ULR Ops. Now THAT is completely ABSURD!

You are right Peter, sad to say but I am arguing with a bunch of amateurs. I should have done what you did and ignored them right from the start. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: