What is the situation in KAL

[menikos]

Hi,

anyone can shed some light about the situation now in KAL regarding the expats, specially F/O's on the B737NG.

Thanks :ok:

[B737NG]

Do You have a job? Did you look into the past postings here? It is like it is.

If you have a job then do not risk it for KAL. No upgrade for F/O´s, no transit to other types as well. Land of morning calm..... nothing changes.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[menikos]

No job for the moment, KAL is not a career company more a springboard, my question is regarding the actual situation for F/O's, is it a good company to fly for,are the people nice, of course we have to respect their way of life etc....

Thx :ok:

[break_break]

,are the people nice

Well, according to my friends in KAL. you can take "NO" as a definite answer. Tried putting in my application couple of months back, only to be told to hold it off and glad I didn't do it based on the latest feedback on interviews and final check rides experiences.
Basically, most will fail the SIM check during interview round. And most will again fail during their final check ride with the authority, which apparently is manned by disgruntled ex-KAL captains. And the latest statistic, was that 2 guys were sent packing after investing 2-3 months of their time during line training. I do stand corrected by those of you who are in the know. And yes, upgrade for expat FO, would be a real wishful thought for years to come.
That's just too much to risk for anyone with stable job. Guess KAL won't be getting their numbers to cater for their ambitious expansion plan.

[menikos]

Thanks for the feedback, was it for the B737NG position ?

I hope they were paid during all that time spent in Korea.

I don't have any job for the moment so if I only have that option I'll give it a try feel free to tell us more about their bad experience, why they have been failed on the sim & line training etc...

:ok:

[break_break]

In that case there's really nothing for you to lose but to put in your application then. I don't have any personal experience, but to put it simply, if you wanna join KAL, just be prepared to pack your bag to be sent home when you are deemed unsuitable or fail your final check ride. To put it in perspective, my pals were pretty honest in saying that the chaps in KAL are not the ideal bunch that you wanna come work with and during the course of your training, you can expect test after test. But hey, if you have nothing on the plate, then go for it I'd say.
What had been posted so far about KAL are essentially what I was told, that the SIM evaluation is going to be drastically differring from individual to individual. Tough luck if you get the infamous nasty instructor, and walk in the park if you get the other. In case you're wondering, was told there are only 2 local instructors who are doing the assessments.
As for the latest, was basically told that whenever there's any "cold war" between management and the union, the one and absolute certainty is that the expat trainees will feel the heat by having check rides failed by the union connected ex Kal check airman.
With much of the feedback that I'd heard, I'm not prepared to join an establishment that still has the mentality of a 10year old when it comes to decision on a professional pilot's life. However, it's the Koreans' airline afterall, they sure have all the rights in doing anything they feel thrilled. On the other hand, I too have all the rights in not taking the plunge (which obviously is what the local boys want).
For your case, I say just give it a shot, with as much positive thinking at you can possibly churn yourself into.
All the best.

[menikos]

Thx my friend, was your friends paid from day 1 in KAL or only from 1st flight.

I have nothing to loose but before I have to be invited which is another story.

:ok:

[break_break]

My friends are at least couple of years seniority on the 744. And yes, you're paid training pay from the very first day you join.

[blues deville]

The interview process and training course are tough. That has been discussed to death on this website. Foreign pilots are paid a training salary and per diem while on course. Courses are running from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 months depending on aircraft type. 777 seems to be longer with only one FFS available.

There has been some recent ideas of foreign pilots transfering types (ex: FO 737 to FO 777) as Korean needs to move senior FOs to the 737 fleet as Captain's. Also being reviewed is the current pay scales for foreign pilots with other carriers such as EK ramping up for more recruitment.

FYI

bd :cool:

[paulomarko]

Looks like private recruitment pitch is in vogue. Good luck to all. RK's crown may be tittering.

For what it's worth, KAL offer a fairly good commuting contract. Having said that, do not be taken in by all the " alluring " stuff you hear ( privilege travel, unrestricted DH to all KAL stations worldwide, free meal coupons, etc ). The bottom line is what happens when **** hits the fan. Someone wrote somewhere about a foreign sea captain and his XO being held in a slammer copping blame for an incident which was totally caused by a runaway Korean barge in the west sea of Korea. IT IS A TRUE INCIDENT and all the merry "oui guk jin" at KAL do better take heed!

[menikos]

Back to KAL, if I'm right everything begin with the screening, if you pass you begin the ground school if you pass you begin the line training and if you pass you are released, is that correct ? I guess the sim is before the ground school.

Thx :ok:

[Kal Niranjan]

Hello gentlemen, paulo marko kid you not. That incident really happened and should open your eyes to the corrupt and unjust legal system in Korea should you have a prang. Check out this link ;

Sikh Ship Captain Jailed Over South Korea Oil Spill | SikhNet (http://www.sikhnet.com/news/sikh-ship-captain-jailed-over-south-korea-oil-spill)

God help you should a pax get severely injured or died as a result of a hard landing, runway excursion or any unfortunate incident due to your or your f/o's " incorrect ' manoevre of the skyblue tube!

[blues deville]

Almost menikos. The full flight sim follows all ground school and fixed based training sessions. Afterwards OE or Operational Experience and then a final line check.

Good luck with the process.


bd :cool:

[menikos]

Thx, it was told to me the high rate of failure on the sim is due to bad management of crosswind landings.

By the way how long it takes to complete everything before the sim check ?

:ok:

[Sargeant Snorkel]

Was told by someone that the alteon sim instructors/checkers taught that the company only accepts the decrab during flare method in crosswind landings. Botch that and you're a goner!

[ratpoison]

only accepts the decrab during flare method in crosswind landings. Botch that and you're a goner!

Is there any other way for a large heavy jet with swept wings??
Please don't tell one flies such an aircraft all the way down final sideslipped.
"Botch that and you're a goner!"

[oztrekker]

I went over this link and did a search on various websites on this subject...it is indeed a true incident.

Spoke to a ex-CASA guy and his take is that aviation in Korean falls under the purview of the Ministry of Land, Transport and Maritime affairs. As such, any aviation related incident involving expats can expect the same protracted legal maneuverings by the legal authorities to apportion blame to the foreigner. Three words........... a bit SCARY.

[av8r76]

Out of curiosity, what is the average experience level of guys joining TRed on the NG left seat. I am coming up to their min reqs with about 4700 total. Wondering where I would stand with an age in the mid thirties.

Cheers.

[fullforward]

you said:

"Quote:
only accepts the decrab during flare method in crosswind landings. Botch that and you're a goner!

Is there any other way for a large heavy jet with swept wings??
Please don't tell one flies such an aircraft all the way down final sideslipped.
"Botch that and you're a goner!"

FYI I've been sideslipping the 777-300ER all the way on final, on moderate x winds with no problem whatsoever!
What's the big deal?:confused:

[menikos]

Back to the ground course, how long does it take to complete it in particular for the B737NG if it's type specific ?

Thx :ok:

[blues deville]

Some recent foreign 737 FOs completed all ground, sim and line training in 10 weeks. No breaks to return home while on course and minimal time off between sessions while in Seoul.

FYI

bd :cool:

[menikos]

Fair enough, thank you very much for the info.

:ok:

[menikos]

It seems that you need to have 3 months remaining validity on your medical after your ground training no need to mention your TR.

I guess that you are not eligible until you fullfil that requirement ?

Anyone going for the B737NG F/O position ?

:ok:

[Chuck Canuck]

Well, it is indeed scary. In the 1990's a Canadian expat had to run for his life after a prang in CJU triggered by a Korean boy wonder. It was such a stressful episode that he never really recovered...developed cancer and passed on sometime ago. I bailed out of Korea when I was made aware of the inner workings of the Korean legal processes.

[Slasher]

Yeh but Chuck it is argueable the kid mightve been in the
right as I recall, but I dont think we ever got the full truth.

....the Korean legal processes

Is it true you will cop a manslaughter charge if a pax is killed
dead by sudden severe turbulance with the seat belt switch
off?

[cpt777]

I'll certainly not be too quick in pointing fingers for the CJU crash. If you go through the official CVR transcript, it was the "local boy" that had been trying to get the expat Capt to go around.
But the point mentioned on the punitive culture is 100% true. I'm also inclined to believe that if there's any chance that they could tweak an investigation process, they will not hesitate to put majority of the blame onto the expat since it's politically correct for them to do so.
And yes, the aviation act in Korea does stipulate that certain circumstances will see that the PIC is punishable by DEATH. New joiners, read your AA carefully before your airlaw exam and pretty darn sure you won't dispute this.
Some of the latest update we heard on line was guys who got in are bailing out just prior to commencement of the course. Wise move if you're unsure of what you really want and if you have a stable job. It's too much risk consider the fact that training department is not aligned with management as far as expat hiring is concerned. Be prepared for some real trying times.

[ratpoison]

if a pax is killed dead
Is there any other way of ending up if one is killed? :p

[BrownExPat]

Anyone have a sample schedule for a 747-400 Expat F/O? Anyone an Expat preferably an American who has gone through the 400 program recently? Is the training as bad as everyone posts on these threads? Are you really targeted because you are not Korean while in training?

The more recent the stories the better. I have read the stories from the past and from friends of friends etc. who don't really work at KAL or are on other fleets:ugh:

I have been offered a job at KAL and I am furloughed from UPS I have not been able to get a non flying job yet and most flying companies hiring in the USA won't hire any "Brown Stains" unless we resign our seniority from UPS which I will not do. The commuting contract and not having to give up recall rights is the attraction to KAL versus other airlines.

Thanks for any specific info to the 747-400 program at KAL!

Brownexpat

[Rotorhead1026]

I'm in Seoul right now (long layover). I've never been here before. There's often some truth to what you read here on Pprune, but most of the stuff - especially the negative stuff - needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I was walking around the airport for a couple of hours yesterday, and saw a lot of expat captains wearing KAL uniforms. The training is probably a cast-iron b*t*h, and the selection and testing process may be unfairly arbitrary, but a lot of folks are making it through and have jobs. It's probably worth a try. :)

[Akali Dal]

Well the KAL expats are all attracted by that " great commuting contract ", free meal coupons, business class travel yada,yada,yada.

Indian sea captains too raved about the great shopping, the superfast internet, super nice electronic thingies in Korea until thee master of the Hebei Two Captain Chawla was thrown in the slammer through no fault of his. Now everyone in Mother India is quite wary about skippering any vessels through the west sea, south sea and east sea ( Sea of Japan? sic! ) of that kimchi land.

[B737NG]

Rotorhead: Have you spoken to them ? Did they tell you how many failed when they did the training? Just last week a very expirienced Skipper got screwed again. There are Expats for sure but when 20 guys fail out of 25 ??? Be warned to take the risk....It is high at the moment, better stay where you are. If you have no job you have nothing to loose when you try it, at least you get some Bucks during the time you go thru the mill.

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[ShockWave]

I am with Kal on the 777. It is a job, they pay me money to do it and I sigh hugely on the way home on the freedom flight each month. You will do a hard months work in under 18 days. The rest between flights is minimal by necessity but you do get good rest on lay overs and on board the aircraft. Don't risk your career for the sake of working for Kal, but if you really need a job, or job change then it is an ok place to be for a while. The people are fine generally once you have checked out, but don't expect to be best mates with everyone you fly with.
The 737 is the junior fleet for the locals so crews are mainly younger and obviously also less experienced.
Most of the political assassinations during the interview sim or line training are aimed at expat Captains. Very few of the assassins can perform to the same level that we are expected to achieve but that wont stop them from lying and falsifying your results to make themselves feel better. I don't think there is a korean word for professionalism, in this regard.

[Crazyworld]

"most of the political assassinations during the interview sim or line training are aimed at expat Captains "

what is this for?

[menikos]

Do we have to understand that it's easier for F/O's to pass ?

:ok:

[ShockWave]

My reference to politics, is just that! There are some factions within the pilot group, union backed or not and ex pilots who now work as government inspectors that try to make a point or influence the direction of the company by failing large numbers of foreign pilots. What that point is, nobody but they really has any clue.
My thoughts:
Direct entry Foreign Captain employment was implemented during the bad days when so many accidents occurred that the airline was about to be banned from operating in some countries and they couldn't get insurance for the aircraft until they promised to employ foreign pilots and change the way they operated. The fact that we are still being employed is viewed by some as an insult to them. So the more of us they fail the better they feel and the bigger the case they can present for us not being needed. Again so they feel better about themselves. I don't think that foreign pilots are necessarily better but generally we have been trained much differently and that is why we were and probably are still required.

[menikos]

Anyone invited for the next screening on the B737NG ?

:ok:

[Brave heart]

The rumour is…in the most cases you will not see Korean pilots (Captains) operating, handling the aircraft. Even for the double or three pilots crews foreign Captain is not invited to be in a cockpit (Safety Pilot policy) for T/O or Landings. You can and will see only F/Os. However in the opposite situation they (Korean Captains) are sitting in on a jump seat when foreign Captain is in control. SIM ride is the same…:bored:

The answers is:
A. True
B. False

[cargowannabe]

Was told by someone that the alteon sim instructors/checkers taught that the company only accepts the decrab during flare method in crosswind landings. Botch that and you're a goner!


Went through the selection process recently and must state that the above statement is true!!!! After 18 years of flying the 737 classic and NG I had never flown a crosswind this way and on my 1st attempt did it the old fashion way (cause I am old fashion) and gotter on the ground at the designated spot and heard the famous "I have the simulator, Captain what was that, we do not fly the NG that way ............." So being the nice guy that I am I asked the instructor "have you EVER flown the airplane???? You do know that there is more than one way to do this right? " He told me that I had one more attempt at the maneuver and if I did not do it their way then he could not recommend me to move forward in the selection process (even though the rest of the 1:30 min ride went fine with no repeats)

So now I am through the process but I have to ask myself can I take that kind of 'instruction' where INSTRUCTION is critical and not constructive? Where there is a true adversarial relationship between, not management and the pilots but the instructors, pilots and pilots. I have worked in Saudi Arabia and India with no problem. I truly believe, they at least respected your experience. I do not believe that to be the case in KAL. I believe that it is truly a MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY mentality and I am not good at that kind of situation.

cargo