Airline Travel in Uniform

[doubledolphins]

Sat waiting to go home from LGW to MAN last night and was a little gobsmacked to see a Naval Four Ringer in 3As, and wearing his cap indoors, getting off the inbound GLA. What ever happened to officers not wearing uniform on public transport? I would have loved to have seen airport security giving him the once over up north. ;)

[Red Line Entry]

Part of the policy of showing the military as part of, rather than apart from, society. About bl@@dy time too. I'm fed up with slinking about in civvies as if I'm ashamed of what I do.

No doubt we'll get posts saying that the risks are too great. My view is that there are plenty of Service personnel going round in uniform in AFG and taking the risks associated with that, us lot back home just need to grow a pair and do the same!

[ZuluMike]

He is supposed to wear his headdress indoors in public. QRs!

[Neptunus Rex]

Can you quote the QR?
In my day, (admittedly long ago) hats were only worn indoors at courts martial and funerals.

[Evanelpus]

Are you sure it wasn't John Travolta?

[Pontius Navigator]

NR, not sure if it is in RAF QRs but in dress regs. How else would one salute on entering an office?

I have been on several units where it was mandatory for people visiting SHQ to wear headress. This is in contrast to US practice of uncovering when indoors. Indeed at the Commisary in Kef there was often a sailor instructing us to remove headress when we entered.

In UK this has crept in too, mainly to get round the need for ORs to salute Officers when they are out shopping in town. Now that would get certain shop assistants all righteous with people snapping to attention all the time.

As for travelling in public in uniform, it was one occasion when a junior officer was entitled to 1st class travel - when wearing uniform.

[Kreuger flap]

Oh goody it's the bi monthly "wearing uniform in public" thread, with the QR Bores spouting ..................well QR's.

[Canadian WokkaDoctor]

I would never have travelled by Commercial Air while in the RAF, but I have done with the Canadian Forces. I was "upgraded" to my own double seat on a packed ac and the Canadian Customs Service were actually quite civil to me when I re-entered Canada from the US.

Here in Ottawa it is very usual to see military members in uniform in public; I've even had people thank me for being in the military while I waited for a bus (public transport in Ottawa is actually reliable) what a difference to the UK!

[BEagle]

In my day, (admittedly long ago) hats were only worn indoors at courts martial and funerals.

Or, thanks to some daft pongo ideas, in the DeathStar at MPA....:\

[David Starky]

I think the wearing of uniform in public is an excellent thing, and was only stopped in the 70s because of the IRA threat. Clearly, we face a different threat today, but I suppose the risk to us, on the streets, is low.

But why, oh why, do individuals serving in MOD London have to wear civilian clothes? The controllers of the Services are a bunch of suits!

If you go to Washington, and travel on the underground there, you will come across many service men and women, in smart uniform, heading to and from the Pentagon. Let's see the same in London.

[Army Mover]

Or, thanks to some daft pongo ideas, in the DeathStar at MPA.... Probably an urban myth; Army don't wear hats in-doors, we have alternative ways of paying compliments. :=

[ZH875]

Or, thanks to some daft pongo ideas, in the DeathStar at MPA....:\

That idea was abandoned over the millenium at MPA, Josephine SWO decided it was a stupid idea and switched everybody over to the RAF habit of (generally) no hats worn inside.:ok:

[SLLC]

When I last travelled across the pond, my RAF colleague and I decided to don civvies to make life more comfortable and wondered why the Navy 1* we were bag carrying for decided to stay in full white regalia. Our question was answered when he was swiftly invited to sit nearer the front of the aircraft by the cabin crew...

[taxydual]

Our tame naval officer got us through international arrivals with great rapidity. They thought he was a customs officer!

[jamier]

We get told in the RAF hats off indoors unless your going into an office for a one way chat!

[Maxibon]

I flew to Inverness on Sleazy Jet last week as a pongo in C95 and wore my side hat inside, shock horror. There was a crab on the flight in his no 2 dress and he wore his headress; mind you it was a turban. For flip's sake, stop bleating about it and just wear it. It's our uniform and whilst C95 and RAF no 2s hardly cut a dash, I feel proud and the public seemed to like it: lots of chat and a free Daily Telegraph from the stewardess!!

[BEagle]

That idea was abandoned over the millenium at MPA, Josephine SWO decided it was a stupid idea and switched everybody over to the RAF habit of (generally) no hats worn inside :ok:

Hmm, when I was there in Oct/Nov 2000, I'm sure that the pongos were still ar$eing about wearing hats and saluting each other inside the DeathStar....

But glad to learn that sanity ultimately prevailed!

[professor moriarty]

Maybe he was HMRC? Rubber gloves perchance?

[BEagle]

Maybe he was HMRC?
At the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, the flying club is (not for much longer) next to the cargo hangar.

One day a chap from Kidlington, on his way home, popped in to do a routine instructor check ride - still wearing his white shirt with 4 gold rings, black tie, navy blue trousers etc.....

The Movers $hat themselves as they thought he was the head of a rummage team from the local HMRC gaff.....:ok:

We didn't let on, of course........:E

[Sideshow Bob]

OK I'll be the sad g*t who posts it. Latest amendment available on the internet here (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/96453EF0_ABE4_1A8E_F5DFFE866A594026.pdf)

0112. Occasions on which the wearing of uniform is encouraged (subject to local commander’s direction and including security and threat assessments):
a. Visits to civilian amenities e.g. bank, garage, shopping, coffee shops.
b. Travelling from place of duty to place of duty. Uniform should be worn irrespective of the method of travel e.g. public or private transport or on foot2.
c. Travelling to and from residence to place of duty. Uniform may be worn irrespective of the method of travel e.g. public or private transport or on foot3.
d. Travelling to and from leave.
e. Transiting through civil airports when travelling to and from residence to place of duty, from place of duty to place of duty, and to and from leave.
f. Service Approved Category 2 Un-established Commitments e.g. official steward duties at Wimbledon.
g. When deemed appropriate by the Commanding Officer, attending events whilst off duty or on leave e.g. civil or Service wedding, graduation ceremonies.
h. When deemed appropriate by the Commanding Officer, individuals can wear uniform when attending civilian court as a defendant, witness, or representative of the Service.

[Dundiggin']

That my old flower IMHO, is a load of bolleaux!! Hats should be worn all the time in doors. I think this confusion has arisen somewhere in the training system when someone must have hinted that you should take your hat off indoors and then everyone (and subsequent generations) seemed to decide that they didn't have to wear hats indoors. It has irked me for a long, long time that Service people took their hats off when entering a building whether it be SHQ or Tescos - I think it is wrong and unmilitary. For example if you entered an Officer's office, the first thing you should do is salute the officer, but you can only do that when wearing your hat. So as far as I know hats should be worn indoors - end of.

[wokkamate]

e. Carnival processions and other occasions when the reputation or political impartiality of the Armed Forces might be brought into question (e.g. political meetings).

Unless you are gay, or a lesbian, or a transgender, or a transexual or unsure of your sexuality, and then wearing service dress to parade your sexuality is positively encouraged (and funded!).

O.F.F.S......:ugh:

Ps saw Abbo in the RAF news leading the pink parade.....'by the left, mince' apparently there were some embarassed faces when hats were dropped..........:eek:

[DownIn3Green]

From the USA...Last time I was in ATL Delta offered free access to the Crown Room for all active duty military in uniform, CAP OR NOT!!!!!

When I was still flying, as an Int'l Captain, any military service person in or out of uniform got the "bump"to the front, if there was space...if not, the CC were directed (by me) to treat them as First Class (i.e.-free drinks, upfront meals and whatever other goodies were available)

As an aside, I own a bar in a state where the drinking age is 21...Any service person coming in heading overseas gets their first drink free...REGARDLESS OF THEIR AGE!!!!!

We need to support our troops...PERIOD!!!!!

[Pheasant]

You now see the RN in uniform all over the place. Waterloo Station is full of them but the only problem is that no-one seems to have told the more junior ones how to comport themselves. The last one I saw (a Lt) was scruffy as hell, no hat in sight, shoes that had never seen a coat of polish and he was pretty hefty for his age (looked like 25ish).


Come on RN, smarten your people up!

[Lima Juliet]

I thought that uniform was OK on internal (ie. UK flights) and not for international flights...

BTW, I wear my uniform into London on the tube and train quite a bit. No probs, whatsoever. I tend to wear my hat if standing and walking, and then take it off if sitting down (unless I feel to give up a seat to the old, disabled or pregnant).

LJ:ok:

[4321]

So why don't the military guys based in the MOD wear uniform all the time?

[Lima Juliet]

Because they like looking like Civil Servants? :}

Real reason, to go to the Pubs and Bars afterwards???

[Union Jack]

For example if you entered an Officer's office, the first thing you should do is salute the officer, but you can only do that when wearing your hat. So as far as I know hats should be worn indoors - end of.

Please tell me you are not including the RN in this blanket statement.:( If you saluted on entering an officer's office in a ship or shore establishment, he would think that you were taking the proverbial!:)

The last one I saw (a Lt) was scruffy as hell, no hat in sight, shoes that had never seen a coat of polish and he was pretty hefty for his age (looked like 25ish).

If no "hat in sight", then quite possibly HMRC rather than RN. Incidentally, naval officers and ratings wear caps, not hats.:=

Jack

[Pheasant]

Definitely RN - had an RN logoed name badge on.

[doubledolphins]

Yes Unioin Jack old chap, but not in the RN. Caps should not be worn indoors apart from Court Martials and other formal occaisions. Indeed it was only the fact that he was wearing his cap showed that he was Navy. Ok the curl is a bit of give away but air France have those. Customs do not look like naval officers any more, in case you have not noticed. But, as I said before, how did airport security deal with him in GLA? Did he get treated as strictly as aircrew. Does he think it might be a good idea to wear a suit next time?

[Union Jack]

Yes Union Jack old chap, but not in the RN. Caps should not be worn indoors apart from Court Martials and other formal occaisions. Indeed it was only the fact that he was wearing his cap showed that he was Navy. Ok the curl is a bit of give away but air France have those.

Many thanks for your interesting response Double Dolphins, but I fear that you may be suffering from double vision, since my post was clearly in response to Posts 21 and 24, rather than to your man at Gatwick.:=

Customs do not look like naval officers any more, in case you have not noticed

Curiously enough, having worn an identical cap to your four ringer for a number of years, and dolphins to boot, I have a pretty good idea what NOs should look like!:D

Just to cheer you up a bit, I fully concur with your view on the wearing of caps, as you might indeed have deduced from my response to Dundiggin' at Post 28, namely "Please tell me you are not including the RN in this blanket statement":ok:

Jack

PS Pheasant - "Definitely RN" Then I'm very sorry to hear it

[cityfan]

As a former commander with a US carrier, open first class seats on my A319/320 were filled by men and women in uniform with a grateful "Thank you for your service!"

I took great pride in walking to the back of the aircraft, when the occasion arose, to PERSONALLY invite them to First Class.

I NEVER had ANYONE complain. Nor would I have entertained complaints.

[doubledolphins]

Yes UJ but do you know what Customs look like now they are the Border Force?

[CrackBerry5288]

So why don't the military guys based in the MOD wear uniform all the time?

Because if something is not used, then it is not needed, and in this case I refer to a clothing allowance....

[reynoldsno1]

Here in NZ there's a brigadier who travels on my commuter train most mornings - I know he's a brigadier 'cos he wears his uniform ....

[Sideshow Bob]

Dundiggin'

Just for you:

AP 1358, CHAP 1

0126. When wearing uniform outdoors, on or off base, headdress is to be worn by all personnel in the following manner:
a. No 1 SD Hat. The No 1 SD hat is to be worn so that the bottom of the hat is 25mm above the eyebrows, the front of the hat level and the badge positioned centrally. The chinstrap is to be taut and positioned to cover the blue seam between the hatband and peak. RAF Police personnel of the rank of WO and below wear a white-topped SD Hat when wearing all variations of No 1 or No 2 SD. The No 1 SD hat is never worn with CS 95.
b. Forage Cap. The forage cap, which is an optional extra at own expense, is worn tilted to the right so that that front edge is approximately 25mm above the eyebrows and the side edge is approximately 12mm above the right ear. The material is blue/grey worsted barathea of standard styling for wg cdrs and below; for gp capts and air officers the cap is piped in Minerva blue. The forage cap is never worn with CS 95.
c. Beret. The beret is to be worn so that the black band is horizontal around the head and 25mm above the eyebrows. The surplus material is to be pulled down over the right ear and the badge clearly displayed in a position directly above the left eye. The adjustment ribbon is to be secured with a knot and the surplus ends hidden from sight.
d. Turbans. Officers and airmen of Sikh religion may wear turbans of the approved Service pattern and colour, instead of uniform headdress. The appropriate cap badge is to be fitted centrally on the turban with its base at the apex of the triangle of the headband. When necessary to wear specialist headgear such as combat helmets or flying helmets the turban has to be removed and the patka (mini turban) may be worn.
e. Hijabs. Muslim females may wear Hijabs of the approved pattern and colour under their uniform headdress except when operational, training or health and safety considerations dictate otherwise. It is worn without cap badge under the hat outdoors and without hat indoors. The hijab is to be worn in such a way that rank slides are visible at all times.

[NutLoose]

Naval Four Ringer

Is that a rank or a mark of his conquests? :E

[BEagle]

The No 1 SD hat is never worn with CS 95.

Sounds like a good reason not to wear Clockwork Squaddie 95 to me.

[Tankertrashnav]

Incidentally, naval officers and ratings wear caps, not hats.:=



The RN two and a half ringer I saw having a fag on the street outside a pub in Oxford wasn't wearing a cap - or a hat! :=

Sideshow Bob - interesting stuff, although none of it applies to me any more. I'm amazed how many on here can't grasp the difference between "indoors" as in walking round the squadron offices and "indoors" as in walking across the concourse at Paddington. Seems common sense to me!

[BEagle]

The RN two and a half ringer I saw having a fag on the street....

Nothing like a bit of naval tradition.....:ooh:

[EOSM37]

I would have loved to have seen airport security giving him the once over

Pervert.......................................

[Dundiggin']

Many thanks for all that guff - 99.99% of which is totally irrelevant to what I was saying in my post.

However, I must remember to take my hat off when wearing a hijab when indoors!!

My point remains - wear the hat, cap or whatever when INDOORS!! and remember that you don't wear it on the waterfront! Simples.........;)

[Sideshow Bob]

Dundiggin'

Nice to see there are still some people out there who can't take correction/criticism. By the way 3.03% of the post was prevalent to you (first 12 words, therefore only 96.97% of the post was irrelevant but included for context).

Don't wear headress indoors at your place of work, QR202.

Don't wear headress indoors full stop AP1358.

I bet you’re a joy to work with. :ugh:

p.s. I’m sorry you feel that the rules and regulations of the Royal Air Force are Guff.

[luoto]

Isn't it so that civis in the UK should remove headwear indoors too (as well as churches).? What are the mil rules for headwear in churches also ?

[EOSM37]

3.03%
96.97%
QR202.
AP1358
I’m sorry you feel that the rules and regulations of the Royal Air Force are Guff.

Sideshow. Do you "Bore" for the Combined Services or just the RAF? You really are good at it. Do you know what? I bet you’re a joy to work with.:ok:

[ZuluMike]

Males remove their headgear; females keep theirs on.

[Union Jack]

What are the mil rules for headwear in churches also?

Well, whilst Zulu Mike is absolutely correct, they were even more simple as understood by the Chief Petty Officer Gunnery Instructor marching a contingent of sailors into Rochester Cathedral for a Church Parade. As each file entered the cathedral, they were expected to smartly remove their cap in the time-honoured naval manner, and all did so except one, at which point the Chief GI bawled out at the top of his voice, "Take your 'at off in the 'ouse of Gawd, c**t!"

Jack

[Sideshow Bob]

EOSM37

Not really, just one of those people that likes to get their facts right. If you think thats bad, you want to come and sit in on one of my CRM/HF leasons. :ok:

[Dundiggin']

Now that you have become unnecessarily personal.....it will be swords at dawn - hats on of course. I am a nice bloke and fun to work with and of course I also take correction/criticism. What your post indicated IMHO was when hats should be worn outdoors. I was talking about inside buildings such as SHQ etc when you are visiting on duty and in uniform.
My experience, which is considerable is that the vast majority of Junior Ranks and some Seniors can't wait to remove their headgear when they enter the front doors which I feel is totally at odds with any military ethic that I have been brought up to believe in. They then forget to don their headgear when enterring an Officer's office (when Officer is in his office) to pay the normal courtesies to salute the Queen' commission.
You can spout all the cr@p you like about AP blah de blah but I still think it's wrong and unmilitary.
I'd love to attend one of your 'CRM/HF leasons' - I bet they're a bag of larfs!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Hats on salute when entering and exiting the office of an Officer. You don't keep hats on and sling one up when entering or exiting Clothing Stores! Wearing a hat indoors isn't unmilitary - it is what you are supposed to do.

[Dundiggin']

No of course you don't - I agree with you, but I think you probably know what I am alluding to......:ok:

[Maxibon]

You lot can't go complaining about being portrayed as being unmilitary one minute and then crying because some nasty man wants you to do an annual fitness test the next. :E

[Fareastdriver]

Do what I used to used. When the boss asked to see me I would check with him to know whether I needed my hat on or not.

[Sideshow Bob]

You can spout all the cr@p you like about AP blah de blah

Strange somebody who prattles on about military ethos yet thinks re-writing QR's to fit his personal view is OK and also thinks The Dress Regulations of the Royal Air Force are blah de blah.

By the way I think you'll find you became unnecessarily personal first.

Many thanks for all that guff - 99.99% of which is totally irrelevant to what I was saying in my post.
However, I must remember to take my hat off when wearing a hijab when indoors!!

Way to take correction old man! :=

p.s. I also know how to use a spell checker (unneccessarily irelevant), yet what more could you expect from a rotary crewman:ok:

[Dundiggin']

Sideshow Bob. That will do.:ugh:

[Sideshow Bob]

Dundiggin'

Don't take the moral high ground,

Sideshow Bob. That will do.

and then send a reply by personal message.

"Chip on shoulder......."

What's your bloody problem sunshine. The RAF I joined used to have some discipline and YOU DIDN'T TAKE YOUR BLOODY HAT OFF INSIDE BUILDINGS! The fact the rules have changed (obviously according to you) still doesn't change my mind. Having been a rotary crewman has bugger all to do with it you cheeky git. So bo@@ox to you.

There is a difference between banter in an open forum and abuse via personal message. If you can't take banter stay out of the crewroom.

Please do explain why I would have a chip on my shoulder about crewmen

What was it I said about not being able to take correction.

[Dundiggin']

I hope the dog bites you! :bored:

[BEagle]

Chaps,

It simply isn't done to quote Personal Messages on the open forum. One just doesn't......:=

Back to Airline Travel in Uniform, I would suggest

[Sideshow Bob]

Perhaps one should not send abusive messages to felow forum members whilst hiding behind the epitome of virtue then. :=

I'm afraid you are incorrect in this case Beagle. The man is happy to appear to be benevolent in public whilst being malevolent to a fellow ppruner in private. I have been known to be antagonistic at times but I would not post in private anything I would not post in public. This is after all a forum.

[L J R]

I'm loosing the will to live...:yuk:

[Dunhovrin]

Somebody please make it stop.

[Dundiggin']

I agree Beagle it was a caddish thing to do. But sadly what else would you expect. :\

The End.

[StopStart]

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/this-thread-sucks/9/Thread-Crap-Jesus_Cry.jpg

[Union Jack]

This thread makes Baby Jesus cry .....

...... probably because one cannot wear a cap/hat/headdress (or whatever) and a halo at the same time - whether indoors or outdoors!:ok:

Jack

[doubledolphins]

Clucking Bell. Talk about thread creap! The only reason I started all of this was I was fairly sure the chap in question was RNR. I always maintained you would always be able to tell even with out the R in the curl.
Any way as this is all about caps now, that was only an aside in the original posting. I thought you might like to know I have just spent the day in a very sunny field on the Gloucester/Wiltshire border. There were hundreds of officers walking about and none of them were wearing caps or chip bags or any thing on their heads except Oakleys or Ray Banns ( the really smart ones had Serrengettis:cool:) The one exception to the rule were the good old VR(T) officers of course. Caps to a man, and woman. Bless!

[AllTrimDoubt]

"p.s. I also know how to use a spell checker (unneccessarily irelevant),"

Oh no you don't!

"to felow forum members"

:=

[AllTrimDoubt]

And that would have been a much better post if I could use the quote facility!!!

:O

[Rhayader]

Come on RN, smarten your people up!

When did the RN sanction travel in working rig? Last week on a flight from Glasgow a killick stoker sat next to me in a crabby set of No8s (are they still called that?) and a pair of steaming bats that had never seen polish. Not a very good image to project.

Still have memories of being put in the rattle for going to the bank on Portsmouth Hard while wearing No8s.

If I were from Tunbridge Wells the Telegraph should hear of this.

;)