Tempting China contract

[Priority Left]

From AeroPersonnel Global (http://www.aeropersonnel.com)

Does anyone know what Chinese airline this is? This does sound too good to be true.

Job Location Asia Title A320 Captain (ASG) Job ID A320PIC/ASG Overview Our Client, a growing airline operating in China, requires for immediate and upcoming employment 55 Airbus A320 Captains.

It offers an updated and unprecedented remuneration package that is the best package currently on the market whatever the aircraft type.

Candidates must:
- hold a passport from a country with diplomatic relations with China;
- hold a recognized airline pilot license with a valid and current captain type rating on an aircraft within the A320 aircraft family;
- have at least 3,000 hours total time;
- have at least 500 hours PIC on an aircraft of the A320 aircraft family at the start of employment;
- having flown an aircraft of the A320 aircraft family as captain within the last 36 months (see below);
- have experience on international routes;
- hold a valid Class 1 medical and be age 55 or below at the start of employment;
- hold a an ICAO Level IV English certificate or better (must be indicated on licence);
- have no record of responsibility for any aviation incident/accident;
- have no record of criminal activities;

Candidates who have accumulated more than 2,000 hours PIC on the A320 and have flown the aircraft within the last 36 months are acceptable provided they have continuously flown narrow and/or wide body aircraft since flying the A320 and that they get current on the A320 before joining the airline.

Preference will be given to candidates who have renewed their proficiency check (PC) within the last 6 months or have flown the aircraft and/or have completed three take-offs and landings within the last three months.

Our client offers an outstanding benefit package including:

- a monthly remuneration package, including lodging allowance and bonuses, of 17,000 US $ (204,000 US $ per year) net of taxes as follows:
- 11,000 US $ base remuneration (132,000 US $ per year);
- 2,000 US lodging allowance (24,000 US $ per year);
- 1,000 US $ fuel saving bonus paid every month (12,000 US $ per year, average based on actual numbers);
- 1,500 US $ long term loyalty bonus paid at the end of the three year contract (54,000 US $ at end of contract);
- 500 US $ monthly short term loyalty bonus paid every twelve months (6,000 US $);
- 1,000 US $ monthly safety bonus paid every twelve months (12,000 US $);
- a travel allowance of 10,000 US $ per year;
- a 6 weeks on/two weeks off work schedule;
- medical insurance coverage in China;
- ID travel privileges as per Airline rules;
- expat support services at induction and throughout the period of service.

A three year renewable contract is offered.

To apply candidates should e-mail their resume as a MS Word (.doc) or Rich Text Format (.rtf) attachments at [email protected] making sure PIC time on type and date of last flight on the A320 aircraft family are indicated on the resume. Please indicate reference A320PIC/ASG.

Only candidates meeting the above requirements will be contacted.

Last updated : June 4, 2010

Renumeration 17,000 US $ per month net of taxes including allowance and bonuses.

[VRSCSE2]

Spring Airline contract.

[hongkongfooey]

This does sound too good to be true.

Sounds like BS, 17kUSD net of taxes equates to around 24.5K before tax, I have not heard of any Chinese airline paying this. ( Air China do not pay that much for A330 skippers ) I would be very surprised if Spring could afford to pay way above the average in China.
Read the other thread regarding Chinese airlines and you will soon learn that lies and deceipt are an artform around here.

Beware and good luck

[Brookfield Abused]

- a monthly remuneration package, including lodging allowance and bonuses, of 17,000 US $ (204,000 US $ per year) net of taxes as follows:
- 11,000 US $ base remuneration (132,000 US $ per year);
YOU WILL RECEIVE A PIECE OF PAPAER, NO LETTERHEAD, NO TAX REFERENCE NR., JUST A RED STAMP, CHINESE WRITTING AND SOME NUMBERS AND THE TOTAL TAXABLE INCOME WILL BE 60%! SO WERE ANY TAXES PAID? BY WHOM TO WHOM?
- 2,000 US lodging allowance (24,000 US $ per year);
HARD TO BELIEVE AS NO AIRLINE IS PAYING THIS IN CHINA! MOST LIKELY RMB 5-7000 PER MONTH
- 1,000 US $ fuel saving bonus paid every month (12,000 US $ per year, average based on actual numbers);
IMPOSSIBLE TO SAVE FUEL IN CHINA - THE ONLY WAY IS NOT TO START THE ENGINES! SO YOU'LL NEVER SEE THIS PAYMENT!
- 1,500 US $ long term loyalty bonus paid at the end of the three year contract (54,000 US $ at end of contract);
UNLIKELY YOU WOULD SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH TO COLLECT THIS - REMEMBER IT IS A TAX FREE LOAN YOU ARE GIVING THEM AND THEY LIKELY WILL DRIVE YOU AWAY OR TERMINATE JUST PRIOR TO HAVING TO PAY!
- 500 US $ monthly short term loyalty bonus paid every twelve months (6,000 US $);
GOOD CHANCE YOU WILL SEE THIS AFTER A FULL YEAR, BUT IF YOU ARE SICK, LATE, FAILED A SIM, REQUIRED EXTRA TRAINING, EXTENDED LEAVE, ETC - THEY'LL NEVER PAY OR PRO-RATE! ANY EXCUSE IS THE RIGHT ONE FOR THE AIRLINE NOT TO PAY!
- 1,000 US $ monthly safety bonus paid every twelve months (12,000 US $);
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? NO QAR'S? YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT!
- a travel allowance of 10,000 US $ per year;
ASSUME YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY UPFRONT, APPLY FOR A REIMBURSEMENT WHICH WILL NEVER HAPPEN! OR THE ID TICKET TRAVEL WILL BE CALCULATED AT THE DIFFERENCE TO SAY ONE TICKET MAY COST YOU RMB 100, BUT THE STREET VALUE IS RMB 2000, THEREFORE YOU CAN SUBTRACT RMB 1900 FROM YOUR $10K
- a 6 weeks on/two weeks off work schedule;
AGREEMENT WILL LIKELY HAVE A CLAUSE "AT THE DESCRETION OF THE AIRLINE" - SO THAT SEEMS UNLIKELY - FIGURE ON 7-9 WEEKS THEN 2 WEEKS OFF!
- medical insurance coverage in China;
WHAT IS THAT? YOU DO NOT WANT LOCAL MEDICAL TREATMENT HERE! NOT EVEN UPPER LOWER CLASS CHINESE WANT IT, BUT CHOOSE TO PAY ONTOP.
- ID travel privileges as per Airline rules;
ASK WHAT THE RULES ARE BEFORE YOU SIGN - MEANS FUEL SURCHARGE AND TAX PAID BY YOU, STANDBY OR SIMILAR AND WHO WANTS TO FLY AROUND LOCALLY? THEY FOR SURE WILL NOT HAVE ANY INTERLINE AGREEMENTS.
- expat support services at induction and throughout the period of service.
THAT MEANS AN EMAIL AND THAT IS IT. YOU LOOK FOR THE OFFICE, YOU FIND YOUR HOTAC, YOU FIND EVERYTHING AND NOBODY WILL BE THERE TO HOLD YOUR HAND
WE TOLD YA SO!

[Priority Left]

OMG! PARC is also offering this contract, would their support be any better in enforcing these T&Cs?
Are there any Chinese Airlines reputable enough that stand by their T&Cs? Deer seems to have some happy guys on this board.

Is there anyone here currently flying for Spring that cares to comment?

[database]

I'm just planning to work somewhere in Asia, the more interesting jobs I've seen are in China and one of those is this one of spring air with aeropersonnel, any advice about it? Are they serious companies?
Thanks

[hongkongfooey]

B A, did'nt know wether to laugh or cry at your post, 100% spot on though.

Fuel saving what an F'ing JOKE ! Try saving fuel flying around at 23-26000' 1/2 the time.
Good luck with the tax too, countries like the US and Australia will require proof that you paid tax in a coutry that has a tax treaty with them, either that or you could try bringing in a few hundred bucks a month for the rest of your life.
WRT the medical cover, ask if it will cover the respiratory disease you might contract whilst inhaling the equivalent of 1 pack of cigs on a good day and 2 on a bad one :ouch:
It aint worth it.

[Airbus_a321]

unfortunately, not even parc will give you assistance, IMHO. actually I am quite disappointed about all the so called GOOD brokers, like e.g. parc. I guess due to the actual bad situation in aviation, all those brokers take all the (not only Chinese) rubbish which is on the market, just to have something "to sell" to us desperate and high experienced pilots.
a couple of years ago, e.g. parc would not even have thought about to offer such lousy jobs, they "must" offer today.
imho, all the conventions of the so called good days went away, the brokers take everything and actually and at no time today you can say again e.g. "I'm proud to be a PARC pilot", because they take care of me - also as a human being.
Or can you remember that e.g. PARC ever in the past offered those BS TandC like the mentioned one with SPRING and all the other Chinese BS airlines :}

You may replace PARC with names like CONTRACTAIR, PAS, etc. There will be no change.
And finally it is obvious that in the above mentioned "GOOD" agencies, actually there is NOBODY who will stand up against those pi$$ed airline managers of those wannebee airlines and will tell them:
"Listen guys, I provide you with a bunch of good, excellent pilots. I do my job as an agency with a worldwide excellent reputation for decades, and I will not allow you to ruin my reputation caused by your BS T&C. Either you must give to my pilots and me fair, good T&C" otherwise I will NOT provide you with pilots."

- Instead, they ALL are licking the :mad:, just to get some wretched bucks for placing pilots and in no way they will take care or even protect "their pilots".
Once you are placed by an airline, be aware that if there will be problems, and there will be a lot - be shure, you are very,very alone and you will have to fight in an one-man-show. Don't even consider to call YOUR agency for assistance.:yuk:

T&C like the mentioned above from Spring I will not and will never ever accept and also not all the other slavedrivers TermsAndConditions - If we all, as a professional pilots community, would stand up against those TandC I am shure we will be able to achieve a change to better and more fair T&C.
But to be honest, actually this seems to be nothing else but just a big wish - as I'm running at idle for quite a resonable time :{

[ZAV]

I think it may be of interest to see which agencies are NOT working in China, perhaps you can gauge the good from the bad that way:ok::ok:

[Tiburon peligroso]

Another messy gig!

[Priority Left]

Ok, I'm trying to keep an open mind here. Are you all speaking from personal experience flying in China? I find it hard to believe so many people (expats) are still over there under these conditions and just have to wonder if some of these negatives are some isolated cases or a sour grapes thing. Can some people with actual current jobs flying in China right now please chime in?

[ratherbehunting]

Wow. Such vitriol. Reminds me of the union message boards.

I agree - anyone actually over there flying for Spring or any other A320 Capt job I will listen to with great interest, otherwise it seems like sour grapes 2nd or 3rd hand.

The contracts for A320 drivers are getting richer because they are having a hard time attracting qualified pilots with PIC time.

Here is what I know - the contract was originally offered by Aeropersonell out of Quebec - attracting initially some Air Canada guys. Now both parc and Rishworth are on the bandwagon as well. Like all other Chinese screening operations - as many as 60% or higher get flushed out by the medical, the written, or the sim eval - all of which are pretty tough for 40/50 yr old guys who have had it pretty dang easy in the western world.

That said it appears that the contract is real, the pay is real, the fuel bonus is 1500-3000 per month, the 2000 living is real but unlike Deer you gotta submit a receipt, the QAR bonuses are as always phantom, the bonuses you gotta stick to paid for. It is what it is - nothing more and nothing less.

China needs A320 PIC drivers and it appears they are willing to pay far more than most all unionized carriers in North America or Europe are willing to pay.

[diablo_caliente]

My my, you are naive to the industry, sounds like you wouldn't have the necessary experience for this job anyway!

Or are you actually one of these cheap leeches from a contracting firm who are trying to sell this and other contracts in China as "above board"

"Sour grapes" don't think so young man!

[Priority Left]

Yes, as a matter of fact I am/may be naive. I'm an A320 leftseater, been at my company 14 yrs now, but they're going nowhere fast. I live in the western hemisphere, have absolutely no experience as a contract pilot and came here looking for advise and info on contract flying. As for the sour grapes comment, I have found in my experience that pilots are a whiney lot and they bitch about everything. I have friends in the Emirates who are generally ok with their jobs over there and say the majority are, it's just a tiny percentage of the total pilot body that post on these boards and bitch, bitch, bitch. I was just wondering, can a set of people be so deceptive and underhanded as to get you in the their web then eat you? I know nowhere is perfect, but could it be as bad as the other posters said. I am no agency by the way.

Don't have the experience? Try flying the minibus since 1998 and being a skipper for the last 7. I'm not short of any experience, so don't judge me that way.

I see your location is in Asia, maybe you could give us some firsthand experiences?

[diablo_caliente]

Priority left;
my last post was directed to ratherbehunting.

[Priority Left]

My apologies. Let's carry on then.

[JotaJota]

Very diverse opinions on contract flying in China... Why? Lets analyze this, and remember that as pilots, we see things different and tend to bitch and complain a lot if things do not go our way. Different agents/agencies, airlines and last but not least, CULTURES!!!

Some people say that their contracts when were broken, paid late, not given promised time off, FRP (Fuel Rec Prog)? Hahahah... Fuel savings in China? Not at FL266, contract bonus not paid, etc... Just do you homework and use a reputable agency, but you will still find some sour grapes within the PARC, RAL, DPI, VOR/TR and WasInc. There is always going to be some sort of problem or "discrepancy" as overseas contract flying is so complicated. Even I had problems a few years ago and contemplated switching agencies, after that not one problem, have been paid on time, etc...

Priority Left - Yes, as a matter of fact I am/may be naive. I'm an A320 leftseater, been at my company 14 yrs now, but they're going nowhere fast. Hmmmm, another ex-Cactus? If you are, PM me and I will provide ALL info needed... As there are AWESOME jobs here in China!

Double J

[ratherbehunting]

No agency for me and I only have 5 type ratings (including the A320) and only about 15000 hours, but hey believe me when I say I don't trust half of what these agencies do or say, but in the end it comes down to who you are working for - the company's ethics and whether they have the capital, resources and honesty to live up to the contract they have signed.

US and European companies violate established union contracts all the time, we file grievances that usually go nowhere and the fact is that pilot wages and benefits have been on a general downward spiral and the only thing that fixes that is supply and demand. I for one am happy to see decent contracts for pilots in China, and I hope that gets the Koreans, Indians and Japanese to smarten up and fix their contracts.

In the US and Europe, maybe age 65 finally kicks into full gear, and since the low end of the supply line is/has been squeezed, perhaps all wages start to increase somewhat across the board, and once again, captains can afford trophy wifes and waterfront property that has become the sole domain of doctors and lawyers in recent years.

[diablo_caliente]

ratherbehunting


Ok, not a bad post! Nice to know I was wrong.

Not to sure about the trophy wife. Would rather the trophy bitch, they're easier to trade for the newer model. But guess they all have the same part number!

Good luck in China!

[fullforward]

What a nice post, man!
I'm almost p....g in my pants!
Congrats for showing such an inteligent sense of humour:D:D:)

[A-3TWENTY]

People Loooove to speak about what they guess like if it was an absolute true.

How do you say that everything in that contract is a lie if you know nobody there?
Isn`t it much better wait and hear from someone who applied or is actually flying there before start posting this red histeric apocalyptic coments??

Pilots are all the same histeric chicks...And then ..do nothing...

By the way I really hope this salary is true , because it will open a precedence.

A-3TWENTY

[diablo_caliente]

A-3Twenty..

Hombre, que te pasa? Buena suerte entonces.

[gibas]

Hi Aviators!

I find the debate quite interesting, but.... anyone there who has been, going to, knows smth about the interview and sim.
What broker do you prefer between Parc, Aeropro, CAAHK?

Seems like going for it in August.:)

Thks

Gibas.

[Priority Left]

JJ, no I'm not ex-cactus, but my present airline is so crappy, I wish I was there!

[PBY]

I am on contract with Wasinc. I apologize, but I am not willing to share any details about my job at this time. I am not trying to be an advertising for a contract companies, but I have heard a lot of bad about Wasinc on this website. I must say, I have a good experience with them. I am glad I chose them. They seem to be the fastest in getting you the job. I have a lot of friends, who are with Rishworth and Parc. Parc seems to be the slowest in China, what concerns getting the job as they don't have experience of working with the culture.
The problem I see in China is the cultural problem. It is a very difficult culture to live in, unless you have a sense of humour. You also need a lot of patience as the inefficiency is mind boggling. Having said all that, I think that the right kind of a guy can live in China and be reasonably happy. I have worked in Asia only in the Chinese culture, so I am not aware of the difficulties in other cultures. But "saving face" can be a big problem here.

[n1_spindown]

I have also had first hand experience with wasinc. they treated me like dirt and they did not follow the contract. they shorted me a lot of money that was owed according to the contract. they are very sneaky and I have seen them take advantage of people when able to get away with it including myself. they will tell you what you want to hear. When I did a bit of searching around here I wasn't surprised to find there are others like myself who have been cheated by wasinc.