Comms & Navaid Failure in IMC

[Hot High Heavy]

I am just working my way through the IREX study material prior to doing the MECIR and am 'loving' every minute of it! :ugh:

Anyway it has got me thinking about how hairy it must be to have a total comms/navaid failure whilst IFR and in IMC. Obviously there are procedures in the ERSA to follow in the event of this happening and a portable GPS might a handy lifesaver, combined with a WAC etc but has anyone been in this situation? How did you make a successful approach?

Further are there any 'old-timers':} out there that dealt with this, pre GPS days? I am thinking there must be some real good stories out there on this subject!

[Jabawocky]

Garmin 296/396/495 is your answer.

Have two of everything. The IFR trainer I did my CIR in only had one A/H, which while legal is not so nice when you are doing night Navs in IMC for real :uhoh: and S/E (yes Wally I hear ya) and you have no idea of the Vac pumps histiry!

Could we have survived a vac pump failure..sure...in fact I seemed to fly VOR's better without a DG and A/H :eek: but had it been my aircraft two of everything please!

Jabair has a MEL that requires two functioning everything for IFR ops (yeah I know Wally its only one donk) and just like ForkAir Multiple GPS whether TSO'd or hand held or PC based are encouraged!:ok:

I bet you get some stories from the folks that will make us all want to walk in future! :\

[FokkerInYour12]

headset with bluetooth for mobile phone also worthwhile too (with an ERSA with tower numbers)

[Old Akro]

I think its easy to scare yourself with what might happen. A total comms / navaid failure requires an alternator failure, then fully discharging the battery. Not all that likely. If you have an alternator failure you're going toward VFR as fast as you can with as much as you can turned off. You'll be really surprised at how long the aeroplane will run on the battery. Unless you have pitot heat and a bunch of lights on, you should get a number of hours running on minimum electrics.

The 5 top most likely failures are:
1. Vacuum pump
2. Vacuum pump
3. Vacuum pump
4. Vacuum pump
5. Vacuum pump

After that its likely to be an individual component rather than a system, eg the AI.

My view is that a vac pump / AI / alternator failure etc is most likely to occur while you are flying on autopilot. So, its important to know where it is getting its information and how various failures will affect it. A vac pump failure on autopilot while you are flying along happily doing the quiz in the latest FSA magazine is an insidious thing.

I doubt that there is anything in ERSA that will help you. Especially since its essentially a VFR document, not an IFR document (and if you are serious about IFR, you'll most likely end up on Jepps). What you'll need is a deep & thorough understanding of the aeroplane's systems, good situational awareness and a good brain.

Is you autopilot rate based or position based? Analogue or digital? Does it take information from the AI or turn co-ordinator? How old is the vac pump? What vac pump system is there? when did you last test it? How old is the battery? Can you switch the alternator & battery separately? What do you do if there is a voltage regulator failure? Where is the voltage regulator? If its a twin does it have two voltage regulators or one for both engines (C310)? If you have 2 AI's are they both vacuum? Where are the static drains / alt static ports? Does the ammeter normally read zero in flight or show a charge? Do you have an instrument that shows battery voltage (eg JPI or some GPS units b& some digital clocks).

Forget ERSA, read the flight manual.

[bushy]

You just wind the altimeter back until it reads zero, then get out and go home!

[Kiwi172]

Yes these things do happen. I was flying in IMC at night in some pretty average weather when due to atmospheric conditions I lost both VORs, DME and all comms.:mad: The transponder was still flashing away happily. - No GPS onboard. Unbeknown to me the compass system had also taken a whack. It took a good 10 minutes for the things to discharge and for the avionics to slowly come back online. A pretty lonely existance while you contemplate what to do next. Keep your cell phone fully charged at all times! It may come in handy.

[Wally Mk2]

God 'bushy' that cracked me up!!!:D

'jaba' ya know I only have yr welfare at heart here buddy:ok: Flying SE IFR is suicide BUT it's a suicidal personal choice I guess:)

A portable GPS as has been mentioned here is the way yo go if IFR is yr scene.
Also a constant knowledge of situational awareness whilst in IMC. I'd bet a LOT of IFR drivers just sit back watch the auto's fly the plane in solid IMC esspecially now with hyper accurate GPS gear with only a basic understanding of knowing exactly where they are in relation to terrain, I know I am guilty too at times of that.
Hand held transceivers are not that expensive either, another tool to have if yr an avid cloud lover:-)
Either way know yr plane & know the places ( printed material) where to find help

Quick story:

Aircraft, C210 (owned by Bishop Jobst)
Scene, Broome,daylight with a NVMC return to Broom.with but stormy wx about.
Task, pvt flight with some hapless caravaners I met during a trip around Oz.
Route,Nth from Broome along coast down along Prince Regent River then over to Kunners back via Derby into Broome with a planned night ldg.

Enroute to Kunners now late arvo I noticed the the radio's getting dull (digital readout). Anyway all else looked ok (battery/amps etc).
lowered the U/C & Flaps for arrival into Kunners & thought gee that was slowish. Green pilot here way back then:-)
Fueled up started the Conty (just fired on first compression) & set course for Broome NVMC after a very slow gear retraction. (yeah I know Jaba I was dumb back then flying SE at night!:E)

About half way home to Broome I had the inky darkness of the night sky INSIDE the plane! Total elect failure!!!......SH1T !!!!! Luckily it was a full moon & one could see the ground fairly clearly but was damn hard work flying the plane by hand using compass & WAC charts. Finally found Broome town lights buzzed over the town a few times changing pwr settings to hopefully get someone to come out & turn on the rwy lights. Fortunately they where on anyway so did manual gear ext as well as flapless ldg. Broome back then was much quieter.
My pax where great people, hardly screamed at all!!!:)
I got back to my caravan, changed my 'super-man' suit (undies) & quietly had a drink or three !!! Thank God it wasn't true IMC but was the hardest think I had ever done,well up to then at least!



Wmk2

[Capt Fathom]

Murphy's Law.....

Had an alternator fail at night in a C172. 90 min flight down the QLD coast.
Nice clear moonlit night. No where to land. (No PAL then!)
Continued on with 30min skeds, with the master switch off in between to save the battery for arrival. No drama really.

Another at night, in western QLD, the compass in the Baron went tits up.
Came home using the moon as a reference until within navaid range!
(Compass bearing of moon provided by Flight Service... aahh the good old days!)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Further are there any 'old-timers'http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif out there that dealt with this, pre GPS days?


..... but we do live in the GPS age. I would not fly IFR without a portable GPS as backup.

Portable GPS and a mobile phone will get you safely out of most situations. I have had 2 x alternator failures (not in the FTDK) resulting in total electrical failure - portable GPS and mobile phone got me down and home.

FTDK has: Pressure AH and electric AH, 2 x VHF, VOR, ILS, ADF, G430W, G495 portable, handheld VHF with VOR indicator, Sat phone, 3 x other non-TSO GPS, 4 x torches.

Dr :8

PS: You will minimize your chances of having things fail if you don't let Jaba near your aeroplane!

[A37575]

I think its easy to scare yourself with what might happen. A total comms / navaid failure requires an alternator failure, then fully discharging the battery. Not all that likely.

But it has happened and Sod's law ensures it will be in IMC. It took one hidden circuit breaker (no decal, either to indicate the position of the circuit breaker) to be inadvertently jagged. Loss of all electrics and the battery of course. Night in cloud en route West Sale to Essendon. Loss of all comms and navaids and of course Sod's law prevailed again when the gear was inoperative due no electrics. No flaps or landing lights and no cockpit lights. Again Sod's law hit hard when the emergency landing gear handle was found to be jammed and inoperative.

[frigatebird]

Also had an electrical failure in the Cessna before its engine (and components) overhaul, due to a broken wire on the last hour of night on a flight home. Night VMC, so weather was not a problem, and just a little moon. Also carry 3 torches on night flights. Coming into the circuit just after the Flying Doctor had departed, the radio and panel lights having given up, the runway lights were still on but the windsock lights were flashing. A quick join, but lined up on final the lights went out. There was just enough light to make out the runway and judge the landing. Have carried a hand held portable VHF as part of the night equipment in the aircraft since, but still need to get a connection from the mobile phone to the headset to cut out the background noise if its needed.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

but still need to get a connection from the mobile phone to the headset to cut out the background noise if its needed

Helps - but not essential. Just stick the phone under the headset ear cup!

Dr :8

[Bevan666]

FTDK has: Pressure AH and electric AH, 2 x VHF, VOR, ILS, ADF, G430W, G495 portable, handheld VHF with VOR indicator, Sat phone, 3 x other non-TSO GPS, 4 x torches.

... and one engine :}

[Capt Fathom]

FTDK has: Pressure AH and electric AH, 2 x VHF, VOR, ILS, ADF, G430W, G495 portable, handheld VHF with VOR indicator, Sat phone, 3 x other non-TSO GPS, 4 x torches.
... and a partridge in a pear tree!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

... and a partridge in a pear tree!

Bugger! Where can I get one of those? Could be useful emergency rations! :E

Dr :8

[Baldnfat]

Had a non genuine voltage regulator (owner/operator modification) fail on a return trip from Arkaroola to the not quite so remote home base in Day VMC conditions. (No GPS back n those days.)
It fried everything, Nav/Comms, the T+B anything that was connected to the bus board. It was only at around 50 feet on the upwind leg on climb (sort of) during a hot (38 C) afternoon. I was slow to switch the master off as the flaps still needed to be raised (and that first 2-3 seconds of panic in an emergengy is real):eek:. The fully loaded 206 did have a serviceable Vac pump and the AH was working.
That would have been the only thing that would have saved my ar#e if it had happened the day before when I departed an hour before first light (solo) on a charter / pick up. I only had the the hurricane lamps to light the strip and it would have been an interesting morning as there was only the smallest bit of moonlight and no other hint of a horizon outside.

The stupid things we do when we have a fresh CPL and think we are invincible. :(

[NOtimTAMs]

Wally said: "Also a constant knowledge of situational awareness whilst in IMC. I'd bet a LOT of IFR drivers just sit back watch the auto's fly the plane in solid IMC esspecially now with hyper accurate GPS gear with only a basic understanding of knowing exactly where they are in relation to terrain"

I fly SEIFR a bit and my fellow pilots think I'm a bit OCD when I've got the autopilot tracking the GPS signal (from the terrain-enabled TSO146a GPS) on top of 8/8 or at night and I'm also marking times off on 10 nm markers on the appropriate VTC/VNC/WAC, with a backup GPSIII Pilot on the yoke. My reasoning is that when/if the donk fails (or the vacuum or the electrics) I will know EXACTLY where I am in relation to terrain (and alternates) without the GPS and can start DR etc with the minimum of sweat and panic to add to dealing with the sitation...... and it gives me something to do while listening to the MP3's....

(And yeah, I've got the backup hand held VHF/VOR patched into an extra antenna and mobile phone into the intercom and more LED torches than I like to admit.....). The only hard bit then is flying an AH failure if it occurs....

[Capt Fathom]

There was a guy some years ago, in the early days of GPS, tracking Brisbane direct Cairns.

Penetrating CTA as he went along his merry way.

When quizzed by ATC as to his present position, the answer was along the lines of....

"I'm 350 nm from Cairns!"

He had no idea where he was!

[Jabawocky]

Notimtams...........all you need now is a Tablet and WAC charts.....that will help you get your 10nm marks and times spot on:ok:

And you can pprune in flight :eek:

[PA39]

In the late 80's had complete electrical shut down out of Sydney at 1.00am (Dual alternator failure!! ) everything disappeared just after departures asked "ops normal" because my climb gradient and speed on radar was too low. I replied affirmative even though i had the gear still out and could not retract. Options were to head for PMQ or go back for the full monty (fire engines rescue etc) at YSSY. So off i went all the way to PMQ with a torch and a load of fresh sea food as freight. The night was CAVOK thanks to the Gods, and a very slow trip, landed PMQ (Right hand man who was there to help me with the freight actvated the PAL for me) and I phoned FS to cancel SAR....a little hostility but good guys who understood. :\

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

There was a guy some years ago, in the early days of GPS, tracking Brisbane direct Cairns.
Penetrating CTA as he went along his merry way.
When quizzed by ATC as to his present position, the answer was along the lines of....
"I'm 350 nm from Cairns!"
He had no idea where he was!


..... but you have learned from your mistakes Capt, haven't you! :E

[Capt Fathom]

Yep!

I carry 2 GPS's, to be doubly sure! :ok:

[Tee Emm]

The only hard bit then is flying an AH failure if it occurs....And believe me that is deadly serious if it happens at night and/or IMC. If you are flying aircraft with only one artificial horizon installed then you have a flying time bomb. While switching to a turn-coordinator is your only solution, it takes currency and a lot of pure instrument flying skill. A two minute "practice" on limited panel once a year during the annual instrument rating test in VMC does not make you current.

A wise IFR pilot will ensure he he keeps current on limited panel (no AH) flight by hiring a synthetic trainer for an hour of limited panel practice several times a year. And for the cost conscious, it is a valid tax deduction.

[Hot High Heavy]

Some of the experiences you guys have shared are very sobering indeed and really do highlight the adage that you can never be too prepared for the uncommon, the 'once in a blue moon' and the totally unexpected. Jaba's comment about wanting to walk in the future is not too far off the mark now! ;)

I often wonder how pilots and crews coped in the early days of IFR operations, pre WWII for example, with equipment that was experimental at best, lacking redundancy and no real understanding of the physiological effects of flight in form of illusions and vestibular problems.

Hats off to some bloody good aviators!

[PA39]

HHH.....Gee I remember (showing my age now) the days before GPS when you had to navigate by DR and LOP's on ferry flights across the pacific. You could only maintain a heading until you were hopefully in range of a navaid. They were the days when you put the thing on autopilot, set your alarm clock and dozed off for a spell. It took just the odd groan or slight misfire or big pot hole to snap you back to reality though.

I remember the London- Sydney Air Race.....the need for 4 or 5 GPS!!! and they never ALL came back operational!! Those were the days mate.

AS for WW11, I asked the late and great Bobby Gibbs how he became orientated in IMC....to which he replied "Oh that was easy.....when your pens fell out of your pockets you were upside down!! God Love him...a legend.

[Hot High Heavy]

PA39 - i take my hat off to you navigating across the pacific in those days, i shouldnt imagine there were too many navaids out there then?

I heard a tale of a WWI aviator that was doing night circuits with the aid of a torch to illuminate the instruments. He went into cloud and didn't realise anything was wrong until he popped out and looked over the side to get his bearings and saw nothing but black. Confused he looked ahead and saw lights above him. He'd managed to roll over without realising. He recovered and landed. I was amazed though at how non chalant he was about this though!

[capt787]

I am surprised that not one of you say pull out your iphone and start using that GPS program you have downloaded two months ago :O

[kimwestt]

This topic very neatly brings up the benefits of having a hand held transceiver in yer flite bag. How else are you goin to turn the lights on at a remote airstrip (and, if yer lucky - maybe talk to someone!!):ok:

[Stationair8]

Always be aware of a subtle failure, many moons ago doing a DME arrival and was tracking on the VOR perfectly until I got that funny feeling that it wasn't right. Giving the CDI a turn on the HSI, showed we were on track whether it sat, going back to GPS mode on the HSI likewise spot on track, wasn't until I looked at GPS receiver and we were about 15 degrees of track. The VOR was working okay, ATC confirmed that no one else had any issues.

The reason for the failure in the HSI CDI was a relay that swapped the VOR input for GPS input had failed in GPS mode, therefore no VOR or GPS information was getting to CDI.