Jetstar pilot EBA dead

[Willie Nelson]

Around 6 weeks ago, Jetstar cancelled the courses of around 15 pilot new hires to the Australian EBA, many of these guys had already resigned from their jobs.

This morning we found out why:

Jetstar is about to commence a new style of contract for new pilots within Australia. The new terms and conditions will be a deterioration to the present pilots EBA 2008 and will be offered firstly to Jetstar Asia and Jetstar New Zealand employees who may wish to transfer to Australia to take up promotion opportunities within Australia, possibly at the expense of those already on the Australian EBA.

For current employees of Jetstar Australia, promotion and transfer opportunities may well become very difficult indeed! This is because once again, seniority is only "a major consideration" for promotional opportunities or transfers.

For anyone considering the cadetship, think very carefully before signing the dotted line.

[Normasars]

This mob are the cancer of our "profession".:yuk:

[Long John Silver]

Pretty soon we're going to have to pass the collection plate down the aisle in order to 'buy' a coffee before descending into a dark stormy airport.

Do pax really want their pilots stressing about how to meet their mortgage repayments while trying to carry out an instrument approach?...

[hongkongfooey]

Did Michael O'Leary secretly slip into Jetstar management while you guys were'nt looking :confused:

They continue to lead the race to the bottom, uncontested.:hmm:

[breakfastburrito]

Unfortunately this is a case of reap what you sow. Ultimately, the only beneficiaries will be those on bonuses. People can't claim they weren't told...

[Fonz121]

The new terms and conditions will be a deterioration to the present pilots EBA 2008 and will be offered firstly to Jetstar Asia and Jetstar New Zealand employees who may wish to transfer to Australia to take up promotion opportunities within Australia, possibly at the expense of those already on the Australian EBA.

This may be a stupid question, but on what grounds would non Australian residents be allowed to work for Jetstar Australia? In Australia Im assuming?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

This may be a stupid question, but on what grounds would non Australian residents be allowed to work for Jetstar Australia? In Australia Im assuming?

If they hold Aussie or NZ passports or other suitable visa. Plenty of Jetstar Asia pilots are Aussies who might like to come home (yes, being pedantic about difference between residents and those with rights to residency).

UTR

[Muff Hunter]

It won't be non oz residents.
It will be oz pilots working in these countries that want to come home.
And Jetstar NZ pilots who want to come and work in OZ.
The maggot who runs this airline will stop at nothing until here completely destroys our profession (although we a good at that ourselves), until the Jetstar OZ pilots stand up and be heard and tell this prick that they will no longer take it up the arse, we are all screwed!

What a great industry....

[crwjerk]

LJS... I've been worrying about that for years!

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Last time I noticed, "pilots" were on the 457 visa list. We are not short of examples of 457 visa employees displacing Australian citizens in jobs. In particular, quite a few South African pilots have been coming in on 457 visa.
Tootle pip!!

[boocs]

It just gets better!! And the worst thing is that there will be those saying "Yes, pick me pick me!!I'm happy with your new contract, sign me up!!"

Will we ever learn??

b.

[KABOY]

At the end of the day it will be the choice of the employee. If he is prepared to accept, be prepared for the bitching that will occur when they see you on a different scale.

Maybe the JPC need to wise up and seek some advice on behalf of their members, but unfortunately the group is so fragmented and disunited there is a snow flake in hell chance of it ever changing!

Mr.Buchanan has played a master stroke in industrial relations on a splintered group of individuals, welcome to the new frontier!

[Signature]

Maybe more Jetstar pilots should be looking towards AIPA... There is currently a very good proportion signed up, but I doubt AFAP will be of any use in trying to fight this.

[busdriver007]

Pilots are off the 457 list.......happened last year.....the whole thing was reviewed and they were taken off.

[beaver_rotate]

These jokers (Pornstar) and their cheapskate competitors all play on the fact that the majority of pilots WILL AT ANY COST take a sideways pineapple to fly their nice shiny jets.

A 3000 hour pilot says NO WAY, a 2000 hour pilot may say yes. No MAY about it... They clearly have no 'minimum' requirements (read Cadetship), or was it an apprenticeship, the pay certainly is fitting...

WHEN will we reach the bottom? :sad:

[lil_blueberry]

Ok I am a prospective pilot for jetstar (Australia),

however, what I would like to know is if anyone can put up the EBA so we can see the terms and conditions so that we know if we are jumping from the "frying pan into the fire" so to speak.

pm me if you need to send it, but i reccomend that you upload it via "rapid share".

thanks in advance!

[Capt Kremin]

I am confused. You guys are still covered by an EBA under the laws of the country aren't you? Those laws actually let you DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS rather than simply whingeing about it and capitulating?

[Autobrakes4]

Virgin started the rot with 'low cost' wages, but this mob really is leading the race to the bottom. An absolute disgrace. :yuk:

[flyhardmo]

These jokers (Pornstar) and their cheapskate competitors all play on the fact that the majority of pilots WILL AT ANY COST take a sideways pineapple to fly their nice shiny jets.

Thats exactly right. At a time when airlines have started re-hiring they have lowered the bar in regards to T&C's yet everyone still jumps at it. Don't blame airline management for playing you guys for a fool, they're just out there to increase their bonus's. They couldn't give a rats a$$ if you can't pay your mortgage or if you worked 10yrs to get there.
Who wants to pay for a rating.... Pick me :ugh:
Who would like to pay to join the cadet scheme then work for bugger all and possibly be bankrupt because i want to fly,but not a little cessna thingy... Pick me :ugh:
Who still wants to fly a jet, do the same job as all the pilots hired several months ahead of you but get paid a lot less... Pick me. :ugh:

Pilots will only work together to have a winge on PPrune. :D

[Coffin Corner]

Welcome to Europe.
Ryanair and Easyjet (Ryanair in particular) started this nonsense, I guess it was only a matter of time before it started to filter down under.
In the UK under normal circumstances there would be between 250-300 jobs per year for pilots, this is against a nominal figure of roughly 1200 pilots coming out of the sausage factories, so about 900 per year never made it, period. With these "new" schemes it gives these 900 wannabes a glimmer of hope of employment, and most will stop at nothing to sit in the right hand seat. I would imagine this scenario would hit Australia even harder than Europe purely because it is much more difficult to "get into the system" over there, thus making these people even more determined to undertake such "schemes".
The other problem, which is a problem we face over here is the fact that the very people who could make a stand are the pilots within, unfortunately, as with over here is that most of them are sat fat, dumb and happy in their job and this "cancer" doesn't affect them, so they are not willing to stand up against it.

Good luck chaps.

[BadPony]

Leadsled,

You clearly either fly for either Qantaslink or Rex as you are having a little gripe about some little South Africans coming to take our Aussie citizen jobs. They came across more than 2 years ago if I'm not mistaken when the pilot shortage was rife in Australia because of the likes of Jetstar and VB sucking them dry of their pilot stocks.

Virgin and JS only hire pilots with Permanent Residence so therefore a 457 visa does not cut it with them, maybe you should have a look at the website sometime.

So maybe this is the only thing you have to whine about or you are completely behind the drag curve as to why it went down in that manner.

Thankfully airlines like Cathay and Emirates don't have the same mindset like you have so clearly displayed, otherwise us Aussies would never have the opportunity to fly for them as so many of us already do.

[7378FE]

Virgin and JS only hire pilots with Permanent Residence

How many Australians are flying for JS?

......and how do you get North Korean citenzenship and type ratings for the IL-62 and TU-205?

[Going Boeing]

Let me see if I've got this right, Jetstar offer 15 pilots employment on "C" scale T & C's then, when they have resigned their previous jobs, BB uses the skills he acquired at BCG and cancels their employment, offers them "E" scale conditions which they will probably accept because they are now out of a job, have a mortgage, wife & kids to feed etc. This then establishes the new ultra low standard of T & C's which all future applicants will be obliged to accept if they want employment.

It sucks big time but I recall all the existing J* pilots being warned about this at the time the airline was being started but "tall poppy syndrome", "pen1s envy" and many other psychological conditions got in the way of their comprehending the long term consequences of their actions. I personally communicated with the then leader of the JPC to warn him of the consequences but I encountered a brick wall. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

The only action that can have any effect is for the J* pilots to join the same union in overwhelming numbers (AIPA is the obvious one because of their industrial capability) and then fight these changes using every legal means available.

[Tangan]

Virgin started the rot with 'low cost' wages,.....

Autobrakes4,

Impulse actually started the rot and then Impulse became Jetstar.

Karma........

[Higs]

Exactly right.
Impulse.... we will operate those A320 A/C on our current conditions etc... Oh you are getting A330... we can operate those for this much..... now all you have are others doing the same and whilst you have become bogged down by all the "factions there.
Dont blame the management for starting another "clean sheet"........... AKA V AUS.

[TurbTool]

I don't see any Jetstar pilots here whinging.

Is there a reason for that?

[GAFA]

Yep Impulse started it back in the 1900 days. Back then you paid for your endorsement and had to buy a share in the crewing company whom you worked for and buying the share made you are shareholder and you were paid as a shareholder. No extra pay for overnights etc and when the captains asked for a payrise, they took it from the FO's pay, so any new FO's started on $6000 less than current FO's and the crewing company justified to the new FO's by sayng they would all have commands in 6 months!

[locknut]

like lil blueberry I'm waiting on a start date. This has thrown a spanner in the works as I'm already working for a great company. But what I don't understand is that at my current company nothing can get changed in our agreement unless all parties agree to it i.e. management and the pilots. So how can the current jet* oz pilot lose their conditions or why would they want to agree to lesser conditions for new recruits?

[locknut]

about 10 posts have been submitted since I submitted mine haha...

So the real issue here is that the majority of jet* pilots aren't part of a union. So whatever management says goes...?

[Normasars]

Meanwhile the "architect" of this mess lives it up in NZ skiing. I hope the prick breaks his neck :yuk:

[Willie Nelson]

Locknut, to share what I know: contrary to what you said, the majority of pilots at Jetstar are in fact with AIPA.

The reason that little can be done is because there is no EBA negotiating period open at this time and so there is no option to take "protected industrial action" without being charged with offenses in relation to the industrial relations legislation.

Before anyone says that J* guys should simply "work to rule" if it can be determined that pilots are working to rule then they can be charged and if it cannot then the company would not know nor therefore care and you are simply left with a bunch of bitter and twisted pilots throwing on a bit too much fuel for Mum and the kids at the expense of the environment without the company being any the wiser.

I wish I could propose a solution that was in fact effective, but the only real solution is to vote with your feet, if your happy with your current job, stay there. If you get into J* don't be surprised to see a short Irish man running around the oval with a set of goal posts that he can no longer get to stand up straight.

[-438]

There are many ways to make a leech company like Jetstar start to take their pilots seriously without taking industrial action. All in the name of safety. Why not decide collectively that you consider it safer to never accept intersection departures or to never land with a tailwind component. Use your imaginations.

[Bo777]

The 08 EBA is set in concrete until it expires and therefore individual contracts (AWAs) offered to newly hired Oz pilots is illegal under the FWA. If management are trying to undercut local pilots by basing overseas pilots in Oz covered by another foreign contract then this is also illegal and the workplace ombudsman (as well as the media) would love to get a hold of this. This is got to be a wind up or ... On ya J*:ugh:

[Arnold E]

Well, what are you going to do about it?? (apart from whinge, that is? )

[dodgybrothers]

how bout the next time a complex MEL comes up refuse to take it, or a snag that perhaps might be able to be carried to next port, snag it. Or that FA who is carrying on being a bit crook, maybe you fail to talk her into continuing. Or when ATC offers you a high level you say no thanks and request a lower one. Get to work exactly on time and take you time to get the thing airborne. When OTP suffers and theyre not handing out the galaxies, maybe, just maybe someone will take notice.

[waren9]

Pilots have little public sympathy. The profession is still percieved to be underworked and overpaid.

Dodgy

It has got to that point for some individuals. However, if it is ever found to be an organised or collective effort it could easily be deemed to be illegal unprotected action.

[Jetro6UL]

If my kid ever told me he wanted to become a pilot, I'd nail his feet to the floor and move his food three inches out of his reach.

[The Hill]

Flying turboprops looks better all the time!!

[Walter E Kurtz]

Any truth in the story that JQ pilots have been blackmailing Jetstar for extra money outside their EBA when asked if they would like to work on a day OFF??

Anyone viewed a letter supposedly addressed to their CEO by a disgruntled FO?? Anyone care to share a copy for wider comment??

Perhaps there are problems in both JQ pilot and management camps??

Regardless of who did what at JQ, the time has arrived to dust off the resume (especially First Officers).

[Dragun]

Where was that information sourced from anyway? Is it a quote? Would like to see where it originated.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Willie Nelson
So how do you know the new T & C's will be a deterioration on the present? I'm not having a go but we need to see the printed form. I would assume they will be less and would like to know how they can just introduce new T & C's mid EBA?

We need every pilot in J* to stand up and say thats enough and if need be apply to FWA for protected industrial action (it actually is called protected for a reason) to apply some pressure. I am assuming they see Tiger being able to recruit on Jack T & C's and wish to follow suit.

There will be a point when they will find out just how little they can pay and still get crew but my feeling is in twenty years you will leave high school, become a cadet, get a command by 28 and by the time your 32 you realise if you don't change profession now you are financially stuffed for life. Additionally there are plenty of not quite as crappy GA jobs that now pay more than an FO with J* or Tiger, you're gonna need a command to buy a coffee for morning tea without using he visa!!

Edit; Oh yes, my guess is that when the EBA does open up for negotiations, the company will offer less than you are on now following in the footsteps of Tiger. But its only a 3% drop and you may negotiate that back to 1.5%.
SN

[lil_blueberry]

Coffin_Corner........ your name sums this situation up well!

[captaintunedog777]

Very sad to hear. However. How many GA jobs pay over 200 grand a year? None. In the general workforce. Very very few.

[Mstr Caution]

Before anyone says that J* guys should simply "work to rule" if it can be determined that pilots are working to rule then they can be charged and if it cannot then the company would not know nor therefore care and you are simply left with a bunch of bitter and twisted pilots throwing on a bit too much fuel for Mum and the kids at the expense of the environment without the company being any the wiser.


The Captain can elect to do all the takeoff & landings if he/she determines the conditions aren't suitable for a low time jet f/o.

Unfortnunately ILS, takeoff & landing recency suffers. But operational safety is the Captains main priority.

[hongkongfooey]

Thankfully airlines like Cathay and Emirates don't have the same mindset like you have so clearly displayed, otherwise us Aussies would never have the opportunity to fly for them as so many of us already do.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5798716)

You are a little deluded there, CX and KA hire experienced expats because they have to, there are very few locals qualified to do the job unlike Australia where there are 100s or 1000s of guys with 2-3000 hrs and an ATPL, so you are comparing apples and oranges. Also, a little more bad news, CX have recently stated publicly that they are very keen to reduce their " dependancy " on expats ( and there " perceived " fat cat allowances ), evidenced by opening the cadet scheme to all nationalities. ( expat cadets will enjoy next to no housing allowances, especially before command )

Before anyone says that J* guys should simply "work to rule" if it can be determined that pilots are working to rule then they can be charged

In the Middle east maybe, since when has working to your EBA and flight/duty time limitations been a crime in Oz ? From what I hear, for a start they could stop being greedy and working on so many days off, also a little " interpretation " goes a long way as to wether or not an a/c departs HTI with a defect, should you extend your duty to depart your home base ( No ) or should you even extend your duty to get the a/c home if you are fatigued. Ask the Dragon boys how effective their contract compliance was, but then you are all going to have to stick together........good luck.

[eocvictim]

Before anyone says that J* guys should simply "work to rule" if it can be determined that pilots are working to rule then they can be charged

I dont understand this at all? Why would anyone be working outside the EBA or Ops? If we don't work to rule we get the arse.

[mcgrath50]

Because in a perfect company, you would be looked after so that if they end up short staffed (say a flu outbreak) you wouldn't mind coming in on a day off to help out and work when you don't have to but are legally allowed to.

But I do see your point, if people are doing this for companies that don't look after them, then the company won't realise the dissatisfaction.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Captaintunedog777
True, I don't know of any GA jobs that pay 200K. I am talking about the FO pay because in J* you have to survive on that for quite a while before you get a command. I also don't know of any J* A320 drivers on 200+ either command or otherwise, last time I checked the EBA it was quite a bit lower.

At least in tiger the command comes quick if you have the wright experience when you start.
SN

[boocs]

i would be almost certain that there would be no sympathy from ANY QF pilot. Quite the opposite in fact.
b.

[Transition Layer]

At least in tiger the command comes quick if you have the wright experience when you start

Is that the sort of experience you only get from flying with Orville and Wilbur?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

TL
Maybe! I should WRIGHT that down next time!!!
SN

[Going Boeing]

i would be almost certain that there would be no sympathy from ANY QF pilot. Quite the opposite in fact.

Maybe Jetstar pilots won't get any sympathy but they will definitely get full support (in an industrial sense) from ALL QF pilots. It's the only way to protect our industry for the future generations of pilots.

[Captain Dart]

There was certainly no sympathy or support from QANTAS pilots during 'that year', 21 years ago. They just could not see what was coming. OK, OK, now ancient history but it was the beginning of 'the race to the bottom'.

[Rabbitwear]

The company always wins. Look at the Cabin crew, now there is Team Jetstar for pilots. The only choice now is yours if you dont like it leave. :{

[breakfastburrito]

The only choice now is yours if you dont like it leave Precisely the reason for the 6 year indentured serf deal for the cadets. Don't like it, can't pay, can't leave.

[rescue 1]

So far not too much FACT on this thread...just the usual stone throwing!

I assume that Jetstar have implemented the "Modern Award"? Thanks to those that voted Labour!

So is it the modern award? And what is the pay? From reading, it would need to be in the vicinity of $140,000 (Captain) to cover all the incidentals.

[Artificial Horizon]

Surely the current Jetstar EBA will only be applicable to the conditions of the new hire if the new hires are actually employed by Jetstar. From what I have seen come out from the company they are setting up another entity entirely to deal with the employment of LWOP pilots who want to go to Australia. Maybe it is with this 'new' company that new hires will be working for. It is effectively what they have done with Jetstar New Zealand. We are New Zealand pilots when we get paid, but fly australian registered aircraft, on australian licences and medical as one big happy family with Jetstar EBA pilots. Funnily enough at the recent managment roadshows much was made about the fact we would soon be able to transfer around the jetstar groups on 'local' terms and conditons. No mention whatsoever that it would be 'new' local terms and conditions. More bullsh*t from head office, I don't know why I am suprised:ugh:

[Shark Patrol]

More bullsh*t from head office, I don't know why I am suprised:ugh:

Did you guys really think that Jetstar would ever look after your best interests!?!! I hope you all enjoyed your time in the sun, because this is the reality of the Qantas Group's industrial relations strategy. Divide and Conquer!

Jetstar was setup to undercut Qantas mainline and now they're looking to undercut you. No surprises there at all. The company has one concern and one concern only $$$$$$$$. If they can find a way to do it cheaper and legally - thank God Workchoices II didn't materialise - then they will!

My advice? Get over the perceived slights from the meeting that was held with a certain ex-Qantas Chief Pilot in the past, pay your dues and join AIPA and hope to God that AIPA's Jetconnect case gets up.

[WoodenEye]

Regretfully, Sharkies plea that Qantas Group Pilots.. Join AIPA and hope to God that AIPA's Jetconnect case gets up...
Is too little and too late to make much difference, even if AIPA does unexpectedly win its Fair Work Case.

Time has marched on. To get back into the game, Pilots and others are going to have to buy into the Company while it is still Australian owned and they still can.

Yes, it’s going to cost and it will be risky, but at $2.30 a share, there is money to be made and jobs to be saved.

Think United!

[Normasars]

Radnav

Touche.

The best response I have seen on this post.

[Gnadenburg]

I'd suggest that some of the most treacherous, self-serving examples of pilot management comes from ex-89ers. Who introduced the low cost pilot model into Australia?

Let's move on from 89 eh. I've seen the scum bags on both sides......

[Whiskery]

Who introduced the low cost pilot model into Australia?
That was Gerry McGowan, Managing Director of Impulse Airlines, back in 1992.

[travelator]

The current generation reap what has been sewn by previous generations. Avition history is full of examples of conditions of the junior pilots being eroded by the seniour pilots to preserve their own end. B scales are a prime example of this. The current generation have 2 choices. Take it or leave it.

[TurbTool]

Again I see confirmation of why this is a rumour network.

One poster states a hearsay as fact and everyone leaps on assuming it is true.

The EBA is NOT dead. Nothing has changed in respect of the Australian EBA.

There are mooted changes for offshore activities but there has been no change to the Australian EBA or the pilots it covers.

The Labour Governments FWA will prevent the dreaded influx, unlike Work Choices. You have no idea how much it hurts me to say that but it is true and a paradigm shift from 19?? under Labour.

Whiskery,
I would suggest Gnadenburg is correctly referring to a certain ex AFAP Vice-President who was the original Chief Pilot of VB, (or Director of Flight Ops or some similar title) a start up low cost carrier. Nothing to do with the Owner or MD of Impulse.

[Whatsit Doingnow]

If not, Jetstar will find ways we cant even imagine to further erode J* Oz conditions
As radnav pointed out, it's not the management that are eroding the conditions, it's the people who accept them.

[Whiskery]

Turb Tool, I am just stating who "introduced the low cost pilot model into Australia" and it WAS Gerry Mac!

[Mr. Hat]

Normasars you could go to NZ and go for a "Ski" as well :E.

...if you know what i mean :}

[jibba_jabba]

Lets be honest, since 1989 pilots in Australia have proven to managements time and time again that they are more than willing to destroy each other and the profession.
YOU reap what YOU sow.... no point being spineless and blaming managements for YOUR own shortcomings and therefore managements "natural selection" and opportunism.THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE. However, a decent profession would never compromise its front line employee's who could make or break the company? would they?......... bwahahahaha....

those "managers", CEO's, HR can all goto another job when they "get over the rigors of an airline job"..... and probably get more time off and similar $$$..... a-sholes

Jetstar Oz EBA not finished untill 2013

Click these links to download the EBA and "what you should be earning" PDF.

what you should be earning (http://rapidshare.com/files/407021505/what-you-should-be-earning.pdf)
link fixed :-)

Jetstar_2008_EBA (http://rapidshare.com/files/406617315/Jetstar_EBA_2008.pdf)
this has reached its download limit of 10. so if u downloaded it please share again if asked.

[Bo777]

EBA still current, no real FACTS, no AWAs allowed under the FWA, :D Willie nice wind up.

[Gnadenburg]

Whiskery

It was actually harnessed by ex-89ers. They came to back to Australia, dumb, desperate or spiteful, to get 100K a year as VB 737 TRG Captains. Incumbents were getting double that.

I hope I never have to lower my colors like that professionally.

[sumtingwong]

Well that'll be the end of this thread then.

Same ol ****e:ugh:

[Gnadenburg]

Well it shouldn't be. I'm just pointing out my belief is 1989 had nothing to do with the race to the bottom.

However, many 89ers are as greater catalysts as any other group.


radnav had a stupid view that 89 is where all today's problems can be traced back to. Hardly. In my travels and observations, there are few white knight on either side from that generation in leadership roles.

Back to the thread. 89 is irrelevant in this case.....

[Sand dune Sam]

Gnadenburg ahh, no, whiskery is right you are wrong...:yuk:

[Normasars]

Mr Hat,

Sorry mate, not with you on that one. Maybe I am a tad slow re the "skiing" mate. Send me a PM if you like.

Cheers

Norma

[Mr. Hat]

disregard just my darker side coming out...

not nice to hear the J* people getting shafted.

[chockchucker]

I think if you really want to see where the future of aviation is heading in this country, specifically with repsect to pilots, one only needs to look at what is happening in the U.S. as we speak. YouTube - Michael Moore's 'Capitalism: A Love Story' - Pilots on Food Stamps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ)


not much to look forward to no matter who you work for.

[Chimbu chuckles]

EBA 4 is dead?

I hardly think so.

1/. J* have a requirement to crew widebodies ex Singapore.

2/. J* are offering current J* Oz staff the opportunity to bid for that work based on seniority and T&Cs to be advised for a 2 year period while maintaining their Oz basing and seniority as per EBA 4. Capt/FO A from Sydney can decide it might be fun to go and fly wide bodies for a couple of years in Singapore and see what its like - and if they don't like, or even if they do but don't want to continue, they can come home to their old position and basing.

3/. Clearly as Capt/FO A's temporary departure has created a vacancy in Sydney, or wherever, that needs to be filled. Capt/FO B, say a BNE based pilot, can bid on seniority to fill that vacancy for a 2 year period. Theoretically an FO might get 2 years command flying.

4/. If no one employed on EBA 4 bids for that position it goes out to any employee of the J* family of companies - a J* NZ, J* Asia or J* VN pilot could bid for it but not on seniority because those operations don't have seniority - let alone seniority within J* Oz. Capt/FO C in AKL/SIN/SGN could get a Oz basing for 2 years

5/. Any new pilot joining J* Oz is employed under EBA 4.

6/. Some pilots who joined J* Oz were offered a seniority number and 2 years unpaid leave to go and work for J* Other on whatever T&Cs applied to the specific 'other' and when they come back they get the base/seat their seniority buys them. Pilots directly employed by J* other don't have seniority in J* Oz - can it be any other way?

7/. If, at the end of 2 years, Capt/FO A returns to his base/seat then Capt/FO B or C returns to his base/seat.

Capt/FO A, B or C are not forced to do anything. This whole setup is J* management following the letter of EBA 4 by offering J* Oz pilots an opportunity to experience something they otherwise wouldn't at absolutely no risk to themselves.

J* Oz managements only mistake?

Underestimating the true extent, in the wider pilot community generally and AIPA specifically, of 'dumb as a box of rocks'.

[metrosmoker]

CC.
That is how I read the FSO except for point 4 and 5.

I read it as any pilot employed bu a Jet* entity can bid for any position in any Jet* entity. And the position will be allocated on Merit, NOT seniority.
Any new pilot that joins Jet* OZ will be employed under new conditions under the new Jet* 'Group', conditions.
And yes, no one will be forced to do anything.

However if you are right, then there is nothing for any of us to worry about.
I`m worried though!

[Artificial Horizon]

Also not too sure about point 4. I think that the A330 opportunities are open to ANY pilot within the J* group and will be awarded solely on merit and not seniority. J* OZ guys don't automatically get first bite at the cherry, although it would make sense to move the highest paid pilots first and replace them with a pilot from NZ, Vietnam on the NEW conditions!

[golow]

A330 Captain 135000, FO 83000 to live in Singapore. A new low. I hope you take up the opportunity Chimbu chuckles.

[Roger Greendeck]

Would be interested to see a link to the pay agreement covering the Singapore based A330 crews.

[zim2uk]

If new J* Oz pilots are to be employed on new conditions is anyone able to expand on the new jetstar group conditions?

Have an assessment day coming up and would be handy to have all the info to hand to make an informed decision before making the trek down to melbourne.

PM me if you wish:ok:

[Bo777]

Any new pilot that joins Jet* OZ will be employed under new conditions under the new Jet* 'Group', conditions.

Which are? ... and if so Im pretty sure that the workplace ombudsman would love to hear from you 13 13 94.

[dirty deeds]

Last Fridays Australian News Paper had an insert magazine with the J* boss as the feature article:

"I need to reduce my cost's by 4% every year."

I wonder how this is achieved, they aren't very original are they, lets not try and hedge our fuel properly, lets not try and hedge our currency properly, lets not try and negotiate cheaper aircraft purchases, no! I have an idea, let pay our staff less and shaft the S%^T out of them, how very original. Why go and study an MBA, we learn it from our management, better still, they do them online anyway. No way they could pass a Harvard MBA, if they could, they would not be working for J*.

Where do I sign up for Food Stamps, oh that's right, we will be banned by management from doing that!

Heard the other day that JB at VB said J* looses 16 Million a year, but better to loose 16 Million at J*, than compete with Tiger and VB and loose 100 Million with QF. Interesting fact!

[AnQrKa]

"lets not try and hedge our fuel properly, lets not try and hedge our currency properly, lets not try and negotiate cheaper aircraft purchases,"

They do that too.

"lets pay our staff less"

You wont be paid any less for the job you do.

[dirty deeds]

You wont be paid any less for the job you do But others will!

Have a look at VB's previous currency hedging and fuel hedging success! My reference to this was their ability to get it correct, not the fact that they don't already do this!

[metrosmoker]

"Need to save 4% per year every year"

Well if REG learnt to engage his staff.
Listened to his management staff.
Treated staff with a bit of repsect.
Brought a bit of humility to the job.
And oh I don`t know, how about cut your own pay!
Then he might might find that most if not all of that 4% would come naturally.
Instead he is festering an increasingly militant workforce. One that has no interest in the welfare of the company or the people it serves. One that has no respect for its leader and as a result will continue to resist his drive for lowering our wages and conditions.
There is more to running an airline that what you read in a textbook REG.
Or you could read post entitled To REG, and read about another success story. Oh one that you might be competing against in the near future.

[Normasars]

Get out or shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kangaroo Court]

Agreed Mr Normasars! If you don't like it, don't work there.

[johnsonwaver]

an increasingly militant workforce. One that has no interest in the welfare of the company or the people it serves.

I think Jetstar is definately there now! Not just the pilots either!

Problem for REG is that his style of management is not sustainable in the long term. (REG will shoot himself in the foot one way or another)

[Velikiye Luki]

Given all this uncertainty, have any new Australian slots been announced internally???

[RFN]

Mate just emailed me the T&C's for the 330 gig in SIN.

WHY would you bother??? It appears to be even less $$ than the A320 J*Asia contract.

Should have done a trade after all...

[Keg]

These were posted on Qrewroom. I don't know of their accuracy.

Hourly rate of pay = SGD$200 for Captains (60% for First Officers)
Guaranteed minimum 150 block hours per quarter = Guaranteed annual base salary of SGD$120,000 (SGD$72,000 for First Officers)
Leave- 5 weeks per annum @ SGD $3,500 per week (2,100 FO’s)
Days Off - 8 days off in 28 days or the equivalent averaged over 12 calendar months
Superannuation - Provision has been included in the base rate and it will be up to each pilot to make their own arrangements
Layover Allowance - The Company will pay the greater of a set amount per night (determined on a port by port basis) or
$5.00 per duty hour for all duty hours either side of an overnight.

:rolleyes:

[Fonz121]

SGD $120,000 = AUS $97,963


Good god. Time to head back to uni.

[KRUSTY 34]

A Regional Turbo-prop Captain earns about that!!!

[Going Nowhere]

Bet they get crew though...:suspect:

[Keg]

All things being equal it will be a bit more than that. I'm not sure if the $3.5K annual leave on top of the base pay or not. If it's on top then you can add $17.5K. Additionally, it's based on 600 hours so if you fly (say) 750 then you can add another $30K. That takes the package to a massive ( :rolleyes: ) $177.5K SGD. Of course, you can then deduct the standard 9% of Aussie Super if you want it to continue taking you back down to about $160K SGD. Given the lower tax rate you're going to clear 136 SGD..... about $110K AUD. :eek:

I suspect that rental apartments in Singapore are down from their highs a couple of years back but I still reckon it would be $5-6K per month for a 3 b/r apartment in a decent area. Definitely a package that will suit the young single guys who are willing to share accommodation.

[magicbox]

The figures people have listed above are correct.
Looking at figures sent by a friend, you are looking at
$151 SGD based on 600hrs thru to
$228 SGD based on 950hrs work
Plus you get a 10% bonus if you stay each year

usually Jetstar at least try to hide the turd sandwich with some extra lettuce or a piece of cheese full of holes but this time it's an open grill :}

[Eastmoore]

Magicbox,

The figures you quote are correct but they include the bonus and the assumption of a certain number of lay over allowances. No super paid.

At the moment A330 Jetstar Capt AUS $175000 base, plus over time at $222 per/hr over 75 hrs per/calander month, plus 9% super of that total and about $140 per lay over.

FO's 60% of above.

[magicbox]

Magicbox,

The figures you quote are correct but they include the bonus and the assumption of a certain number of lay over allowances. No super paid.


You are correct. Figures did include the bonus + layover.
My mistake....

....its turned the turd sandwich into a foot long turd sub :}

[By George]

A couple of things here might help you guys;
1) You have to be declared a non-resident to pay only SG tax.
2) As a non-resident you cannot pay into a Aus Super scheme.
3) Once declared a non-resident you will loose your Medi-Card and benefits and loose membership of your private health scheme. (MBF in my case).
4) Tax here varies from year to year (subject to the countries performance). Plan around 20%.
5) For the first five years (it might have changed, so check) you are able to claim a rebate under the NOR scheme (Not an Ordinary Resident) providing you are out of the country for at least 93 days in one calender year. Depends on your Gross but in my case around 8 to 10 grand discount.
6) As a non-resident you have restrictions on the number of days allowed in Aus or you could be subjected to tax differences.
7) My accountant says 90 days but some have a private ruling and I have heard of 105 days.
8) This rule has recently been updated so check it out.They seem to be after commuters.
9) SG 4,000 to 5,000 will get a decent place (3-bedroom per month).
10) My wife and I have been happy here and like the place, but it's not home.
11) Our mates in CASA will not issue you an ASIC as a non-resident so when you want to fly privately in Aus you have to get escorted to the aircraft which really bugs me for some reason. Happy to answer any other Singapore questions, lots of good pubs and other more important info.

[John Citizen]

OYY1 :

Your calculations are misleading.

You compare 840 hours in Australia vs 890 hours in Singapore.:eek:

Why not compare for the same flying hours ? :confused:

If you do the same hours in Australia (890), you will earn an extra $11,500 gross in Australia :eek:

You say :

If you can get away with only paying Singapore tax

I just had a look at the rather complicated tax ruling and I conclude that unless you commit yourself to Singapore for 2 years or more (and all other conditions), you will not get away with paying Singapore only tax. :eek:

We are only talking about a small $43,795 difference here.:eek: That is $43,795 less in your pocket to live in one of the most expensive cities (in the top 10) in the world for an expat. :eek:

So is this really a lousy deal or are you one of the people trying to pull the wool over pilots eyes ? :eek:

Even if the NET pay was exactly the same as you are trying to make us all believe, how much more expensive is it to live in Singapore compared to Australia ?

$65,000 for a basic small car :eek:
rent about $4000-5000/month :eek:

So do you still think it is a good deal or as good as it is in Australia ? :confused:

[John Citizen]

OYY1 :

I redid the calculations for you : :ok:

A330 Year 4 EBA:
AUD $180,871
Extra Flying Allowance (>75 hrs per month) AUD $230 per hour
6% Retention payment (paid at end of years 1, 3 and 5) averages out at 6% per annum.
Superannuation 9%

Assuming 890 hours per annum :
Base: 180,871
Extra Flying: (10 x230) x 10.5 months (6 weeks leave) = 24,150
Retention: 6% x (180,871 + 12,075) = 11,577
Superannuation: 18,407
Gross Pay: 216,598
Gross Pay plus Super: 235,005
Tax: 72,187
Net Pay: 144,411
AUD $ Net Pay plus Super: AUD $162,818, converted to SGD $ =
SGD $ Net Pay plus Super: SGD $199,750


A330 SINGAPORE:
SGD $200 per hour (guaranteed 600 hours per annum)
5 Weeks Leave at SGD $3500 per week
10% Bonus

Projected hours 890 per annum
890 x 200 = 178,000
Leave: 17,500
10% bonus: 19,550
Gross Pay: 215,050
Total Tax (Aust and Singapore): 71,671
SGD $ Net Pay: SGD $143,379

Just a few small insignificant differences as you can see :eek:

[Higs]

I see that Singapore Airlines Cargo are employing. If anyone from Jetstar Aus was looking at moving for a widebody then cargo would be a better bet. More money bigger A/C and truly global flying. Check it out at flight international..

[John Citizen]

OYY1 :

I am sorry if I misunderstood your post, but your comments/question So is this really a case of a lousy Singapore deal tells me that you do not think this is lousy deal.

You later admit that most pilots will be unable to avoid paying Australian tax, then why do you make a comparison using Singapore tax only. I understood you used the word "IF", but it's a very big IF. Why didn't you do a more realistic comparison using Australian tax which will apply to most pilots ?

In your first post you point out how "some" (very few) pilots will have the same NET pay as in Australia.

You use this basis alone for comparison, then you write So is this really a case of a lousy Singapore deal.

There is a lot more to consider other than the NET pay whether it is a lousy deal or not, such as the cost of living in Singapore. You do not mention this anywhere in your first post.

[thrustpig]

Not wanting to muddy the waters much more than they are already, however add these to the mix:-

Three Bedroom 1300sq-foot condo, SD$4000-$5500 per month,
Toyota Corrolla SD$85000-$95000
International school, SD$2500-$10,000 per student per month
(Local (cheaper) school possible subject to pass in Mandarin or Bahasa Malay)
Chicken Rice, SD$4- small portion.

[Blackdog320]

Not sure where the 890hrs came from but cant see why the company would have you do more than the 600.
Also its getting sad when we start factoring in leave pay, dont count on it as anyone in JQ will tell you leave is hard to get with all the leave blackouts and these guys will roster so that they will somehow have you doing 600hrs over 12 months( will give you plenty of time down at east coast spending whats left of your A$93600 before tax.Dhc8 skippers in oz get more)
The 10% bonus also only applies to JQ oz pilots leaving to go to Sin.
Super also needs to be self funded so if we added this to the Australian conditions how about we take it off the Sin Conditions unless planing on retiring to east coast park as well.
At least the finish line at the bottom is coming into sight.

[neville_nobody]

Are you employed by a Singaporean Company or an Australian Company?

[Captain Kellogs]

And people thought I was crazy when I turned Jetstar down for an interview 8 years ago when they told me I had to pay for an endorsement,

and their response was to ring me back and say but dont you want to work for an airline!!!

funny how when I laughed and said that I didnt consider them an airline. I was told that they would note that on my file and ensure I never had a job with them, they then called me back a few months later asking whether I would reconsider!

They cant even keep to their word on who they dont want to hire!

To this day I have never paid for an endorsement, I earn better money than most airline pilots, and I work a lot less than all airline pilots, and best of all I really do enjoy my job, My aeroplane and most importantly my lifestyle!

Impulse (Jetstar), virgin, Jet connect, they are all the same, and all you guys that jumped in bed with them are now complaining because a younger version of yourselves are emerging to do the same to you.

Oh the Irony

[The Professor]

"Now what you guys did to QF"

What exactly did the guys "do" to QF.

"is happening to you"

Yep, market forces work in many ways.

"You started the race to the bottom"

Wow, great fear mongering. You really like playing the victim don't you. Only ignorance would suggest that the participants within the labor market are responsible for its behaviour. There are many forces that have changed the nature of employment within the airline industry in Australia. The removal of regulation is the most obvious one but also the replacement of a highly unionised legacy carrier with a largely un unionised startup. This was the crack in the door that totally changed for ever the way labor would be employed.

But its much easier to simply blame your fellow employees, isn't it?

[Capt Kremin]

Professor, you pseudo-intellectual moniker belies the fact that you don't know what you are talking about sometimes. Jetstar has a unionised pilot workforce, more and moreso with every passing day.

[Jet Jockey]

50 expressions of interest and still counting from the Townsville refueller.

[The Professor]

“Jetstar has a unionized pilot workforce, more and moreso with every passing day.”

Kremin, you are correct. Most airlines, even LCC’s and startups, have some form of ineffective union participation. From an employees perspective you may have the warm and fuzzy feeling that organized labor brings but from a business perspective, airlines such as Jetstar can be started and to some extent operated virtually free of the industrial barriers that hobbled Ansett and still hobble Qantas. DEC’s, crew compliments, foreign bases, lower salaries, fewer benefits.

Jetstar is EFFECTIVELY un unionized. You missed the subtlety in my previous post.

[KABOY]

The foundation of Jetstar was built from a factionalized organisation known as Impulse.

Within this group the modus operandi was to undercut and oversee the demise of one regional airline followed by the undermining of another airline. Unfortunately, the thinking of this group was that if they did not lower their terms and conditions someone else would, resulting in reduced growth.

Regrettably, the continued dysfunction within this group has led to further erosion in terms and conditions for the same airplanes and no matter how unionised the workforce may become, the management has established a solid foundation to reduce terms and conditions further.

Unionising your current group is too little too late.

[Whiskery]

Thank you KABOY

..........the thinking of this group was that if they did not lower their terms and conditions someone else would, resulting in reduced growth.


That was the ethos of one Gerry McGowan, Managing Director of Impulse. He would continually remind his pilots of this fact at every opportunity and, like mice behind the Pied Piper, they followed. With this brainwashing,emerged the original "low cost model pilot into Australia".

I guess you could say Gerry was a pioneer, unfortunately, only Sand dune Sam and your good self realised it ! :(

[mppgf]

KABOY
Within this group the modus operandi was to undercut and oversee the demise of one regional airline followed by the undermining of another airline.

Which regional airlines demise was that ?

[WalterMitty]

The most "devilish" of the "details" is the minimum guarantee which would be unlivable for even single persons in SIN based upon the recently posted budgets.

When QF pilots went to J*Asia for the start up they were offered a similar deal and when hours dropped they really suffered and 'promised' commands did not materialize for years.

Can you live on the minimum pay?????????????????????????

[Mud Skipper]

Walter, been thinking the same thing and think you've hit the nail on the head.

Crewing only a few aircraft, at least initially, makes for inefficiencies and the need to overcrew to cover for sickness, training and early resignations is exacerbated by the small base size when trying to maintain a schedual. Traditionally you can cover these positions from another source as would be available in a larger company however with such a small start up overcrewing is the only real answer so in the first few years you would have to expect much lower than the 890 hrs. Perhaps somewhere in the order of 600 hrs would be optimistic in the startup year and maybe max 740 hrs (890/6*5) for the following year.

Either way I would not believe anything they may promise and ensure I could survive on base pay as many at Qantas Mainline have learnt the hard way.

Mud

[otto the grot]

That was the ethos of one Gerry McGowan, Managing Director of Impulse

Well thank you very much Whiskery.

I had done a lot of work with my therapist towards supressing memories surrounding that name. :rolleyes: .....until you brought it to the fore again.
:}

[Whiskery]

My sincerest apology Otto.

Try a cardboard effigy and use it as a dart board...................worked for me with Abeles and Hawke.
A lot cheaper and more satisfying than therapy!:ok:

[jibba_jabba]

Heard that there seems to be an email going around stating that pilots on hold file can expediate their employ with Jetstar by taking a position in NZ!

I would hope that pilots at this level will be smart and not do this, as I believe that this would pave the way for erroding of the EBA........

Can anyone an shed some further light on this?

[Cruis'in FL410]

Have to agree with jibba jabba...

Given the insulting T&C's regarding a position in SIN on the A330, its unlikely any local crew will take up the offer, consequently no temp positions will come up in OZ, until more A320's arrive in the coming months. (Heard JQ Asia A320 pilots have looked at the A330 offer and said its less than what they're on!). Its JQ NZ offer all over again, raise it a little more next month and see who takes the bait...

Heard in NZ recently, quite a few flights have been cancelled due to lack of crew, so apparently there has been a requirement for upgrades for JQ NZ pilots. With these upgrades, availability for JQ NZ F/O's are now available. For those interested on these below average conditions beware, you cannot transfer from JQ NZ to JZ OZ onto better conditions, as average as they are. Find out from the local guys exactly what the flying rosters provide on the NZ contracts conditions before even thinking about applying.

[Mstr Caution]

Heard in NZ recently, quite a few flights have been cancelled due to lack of crew


Not only lack of crew but lack of recency!

JQ had to delay a departure ex NZ for AUS pre dawn till after morning twilight due crew not night recent!!

Sounds like an exceptional operation !!

[Normasars]

mggpf,

Quote:
Within this group the modus operandi was to undercut and oversee the demise of one regional airline followed by the undermining of another airline.

Which regional airlines demise was that ?

I suggest you do a tad more research there digger, actually here's a hint for you.

There was a certain QF Regional airline that operated a small fleet of Dash8's and BAe 146's. It was very lean/efficient and profitable. The turnover of crews, both Tech and Cabin was nigh on zero because there was job progression, people were treated decently and respected, and the lifestyle was second to none. Still haven't figured it out??

Southern Australia Airlines!! RIP.

[WB Bach]

jibba_jabba

"I would hope that pilots at this level will be smart and not do this, as I believe that this would pave the way for erroding of the EBA........"

Sadly there will always be those who'll take the poor contract (NZ IEA). Either to get a start, return to their homeland or get Command.

The EBA FOs taking LWOP, get a command and return back to Oz when they can, probably do more to erode the EBA than any one else.

[Fonz121]

I don't work for an airline at present but I am trying to understand why guys on the current EBA are willing to sacrifice long term pay for a quicker command? Can you really not wait the extra year or whatever it is?

The short term benefits of a quicker command can't possibly outweigh the long term benefits of better remuneration can they? I can understand if you want to live out your days in NZ (actually no I can't) but apart from that it just doesn't seem to make long term financial sense.

Doesn't make sense to me, but like I said, I'm from the outside looking in.

[Oakape]

Some guys will take the quick command because they are planning to move to greener pastures (good luck with that :uhoh:) & it is smarter (some would say essential) to do that as a captain, rather than as an F/O.

[Alloyboobtube]

Unfortunately some guys will not get a command for more like 5-7 years , and some will never live in their homes with their families to get a reasonable basing.
These things cannot wait and unfortunately the company can use this to generate larger profits. Rejecting a command to wait for unity is long gone. AIPA was too slow off the mark and busy wasting money attacking things that really were irrelevent.(deliberately I feel) AIPA is only in Jetstar to get QF pilots a job if they all of a sudden need one, this will again be at the expense of JQ f/os upgrades, yet they follow like lost sheep.:ok:
Good luck........

[Ramboflyer 1]

Looks like workchoices all around. Save your money boys dump the union, the only payrises now will be the saving in fees...

[jibba_jabba]

Ramboflyer 1:
Looks like workchoices all around. Save your money boys dump the union, the only payrises now will be the saving in fees...

well, i guess that means we can thank the liberals for that... i know who i wont be voting for......

but on a lighter note.........anyone been called up for a Jetstar Oz ground school??

[Private Patjarr]

The people on hold might be a little disappointed when they find out they are going to be offered an employment agreement outside the EBA.

[Bo777]

PP
The people on hold might be a little disappointed when they find out they are going to be offered an employment agreement outside the EBA.
Don't know how that's possible?

[Velikiye Luki]

Have any F/Os been offered commands in JQ Australia recently .... fingers crossed this may trigger some recruitment????????

[Private Patjarr]

That's what I'm wondering too. Have tried to find out what Australian legislation there is to stop it but can't find any. It's not really individual agreements, just another group agreement??

I heard that their FAs were in the same boat. ie they had an EBA with Jetstar but in an effort to drive down the $$, the company then started employing them outside on a separate agreement (on lesser conditions).

Sounds sadly like any new pilots will be facing a simillar situation.

[Alloyboobtube]

Heard the new F/O contract has no endorsement costs . No day off payments. Overtime at 80 hours. base pay 50 k till 1 year from check to line. increasing 5 k per year until reaching 100k upper limit.
super at 9% of base pay only. No bonuses.leave 6 weeks .

[jibba_jabba]

Alloyboobtube:
Heard the new F/O contract has no endorsement costs . No day off payments. Overtime at 80 hours. base pay 50 k till 1 year from check to line. increasing 5 k per year until reaching 100k upper limit.
super at 9% of base pay only. No bonuses.leave 6 weeks .

Thanks , needed some facts to see how unreasonable it is!
my god, i could earn better money being a P.A , labourer, bank teller..... pffff

[Bo777]

Alloyboobtube
A mate's friend's mother's cousin's distant relative's cat told me blah blah blah. They can't do it. Even if they start a new entity the bottom line is called the MODERN AWARD. If they try to go below that ... well they'll be in deep doo doo with the workplace ombudsman. Ignorance is not bliss ... its slavery in this instance. Wake up pilots!

[Lookleft]

They are not changing the Award, that is the sneaky bit they are starting a new "Company" and you work for that entity on the conditions of that Company. Dixon stated when Jetstar was started that no Mainline pilot will be required to take a paycut or a reduction in conditions BUT the fine print was if you want that command then you have to sign on to the "new" conditions.

If the Court Case regarding Jetconnect does not succeed then it will be the new Workchoices. The only way to change it will be through legislation which will be a long slow process and more than likely not retrospective.

It would be naive to think that they won't get anyone to sign up to the "new" award.

[breakfastburrito]

Lookleft, I think you may misunderstand what bo777 is saying. Any entity employing pilots must have as minimum the Air Pilots Award 2010 [pdf] (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/30Jun10/MA000046_30Jun10.pdf). If another entity employs pilots, yes the Jetstar EBA is dead, but the Air Pilots award will still be the minimum. The race to the bottom is over.

[Bo777]

Lookleft
Sorry mate you're talking crap. The bottom line minimum wage, T&C's are outlined in the Air Pilots Modern Award 2010(feel free to look it up sometime). Current J* pilots are on a specific industry award atm. Any pilot based on less than the conditions outlined in the Air pilots award needs to contact the union and workplace ombudsman ASAP. Sorry was still writing when BB posted. What BB said.:ok:

[What The]

Interesting quote:

"They (the AFAP) are quite comfortable with it and the Jetstar Pilot Council, which is our employee representative body, has been part of it," he said.

The AFAP are quite comfortable with it, however the JPC which was set up to represent the interests of the Jetstar Pilot group has been part of it.

I just hope that the overseas members of the AFAP have not been able to have any input into the "comfort" factor felt by the AFAP.

Help yourselves lads, the enemy lies within.

Good luck.

Source: Bruce Buchanan rejects pilots union 'scaremongering' | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/bruce-buchanan-rejects-pilots-union-scaremongering/story-e6frg95x-1225901793800)

[Lookleft]

BB thanks for the link and yes I did misunderstand 777s post (thanks for the crisp precis 777). To clear up further misunderstanding who negotiated that? Why are helicopter weights still in pounds? And I don't get what the 760% IFR allowance is all about.

What I find odd about Jetstars assertion that it is good for the pilots to be given opportunities to fly overseas with Jetstar, is that they were able to recruit plenty of expats who were overseas who did not want to be overseas any longer. Why do they think that pilots from here are going to rush o/s for less money than they are on now?

[KRUSTY 34]

Becha' some will! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[flyingins]

The AFAP are certainly not comfortable with it.

The JPC was definitely NOT a part of it.

While I do agree that the enemy lies within, this enemy is NOT any of the representative bodies of Jetstar pilots.

Don't fall for executive spin.

[100knots]

so does that mean everyone flying aust reg planes under casa rules for aust company are covered by the Air Pilots Modern Award 2010?

ie Jetstar nz

Jetstar needs a union to cover all its operations under one umbrella to provide collective bargaining power. No more part time pilots part time negotiators (no disrespect to previous union representatives :D) Union negotiators with Law degrees and experience in dealing with quality of life slashing bonus banking managers.

Atleast start with Australian and New Zealand unionisation.

[waren9]

Jetstar NZ pilots, I believe, work for a NZ registered company. They pay income tax to the NZ IRD. They work under a contract that complies (I presume) with NZ labour laws. Australian unions get very little say in what goes on in other countries.

Why do you think they started JQNZ in the first place?:ugh:

And yes, it is no secret that AIPA is on the phone to NZALPA.

[Compylot]

Jetstar is about to commence a new style of contract for new pilots within Australia. The new terms and conditions will be a deterioration to the present pilots EBA 2008 and will be offered firstly to Jetstar Asia and Jetstar New Zealand employees who may wish to transfer to Australia to take up promotion opportunities within Australia, possibly at the expense of those already on the Australian EBA.


With news such as this I can imagine that the entire pilot body at Jetstar are combining together to discuss the potential ramifications to not only their own positions, but just as importantly the scenario presented to new hires?

After such discussion it is then reasonable to expect that your concerns would then be presented to management, backed by the solidarity of a professional workforce that are determined not to let the current conditions slip!

Its great to see a united front of pilots, concerned at the pay and conditions of new hires!

Good luck guys, I'm sure your concern and solidarity will prevail and this attempt at lowering the standards of tech crew in Australia will be cut off :ok:



(By the way my niece is about to graduate from high school and is keen on the Jetstar cadetship, if anyone has any pointers on the selection process any info would be much appreciated! PM me if you like. Any info much appreciated :ok:)

[Fruet Mich]

I once heard of an Indian airline who was treating their pilots quite badly. Apparently there was a very bad flu that went through the entire pilot group one day and all the aircraft were grounded. Terrible, I hope the pilots all recovered.

[Long John Silver]

I suggest everyone have a look at the 'pilots unite' thread. Its time to pull some industrial 'g' and get this eba saga out of nose dive :ok:

[Black Stain]

Hey, maybe I could score a clever boy bonus if I suggest to the Qantas Board that they outsource Jetstar management to Manila or Pune.

[Rabbitwear]

EBA is a dead duck...

[FFRATS]

Don't worry....Pay freeze and a reduced hours base with the Golden Carrot of extra flying hours pay and the one off, sign-off bonus will get the troops signing up. :rolleyes:


FFRATS

[A320 Flyer]

I'd be happy with tiger dollars and keep everything as it is on a 12 month interum agreement.... currently 35K (FO) behind based on 787hrs per year....

[limitedrisk]

With a few factors coming into play recently (Aus/NZ exchange rate, stalled EBA),

The kiwi JQ A320 contract is not looking so bad (relatively speaking):

New base salary now one year after ratification:

$180k + 4.5% super = $188,100 plus overtime at >65hrs of $172/hr (AUD)

$188,100 x 0.93 = 174,900k AUD (plus about $3500AUD in ZQN allowance)

EBA:

163,418 + 9.25% super = 178,500K AUD plus overtime >75 of $208/hr

[h.o.t.a.s.]

Thats it!!!

Arm Bands and Red (Orange?) Ties at fifty paces!!

Watch out for those nasty (polite) P.A's also…

That'll show em. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Ramboflyer 1]

Any news on the EBA....

[Iron Bar]

September to remember? - Winter of our discontent?

[blow.n.gasket]

Ides of March???

[KRUSTY 34]

I reckon Jane's breathing a sigh of relief. After "cleverly" telling the JPC they should model their claims on the Tiger EA, the Tiger boys and girls then successfully negotiate a superior deal, putting serious egg on the face of the Jetstar CEO. Oops!

Then Joyce comes along shooting from the hip in all directions, and with the group wide pay freeze, provides a convenient out for her!

I mean fair dinkum! The only thing missing is the lion tamer!

[blow.n.gasket]

Well Krusty,
I guess that's what happens when the business is run by clowns,
it becomes a circus!

[FFRATS]

Lets ask Jayne as a'Leader'-
Q- Will a pay freeze for the JQ Pilots start from AJ's announcement 'across the board' or from when the EBA's expire date? We know the answer....

Q-and if this is the case the pilots have already been on a 'pay freeze' so will all Managers linked to the executive bonus scheme be 'back-billed' and return any extra pay from the date when their fellow employe is being asked to freeze from, as good 'Leaders' should.
:rolleyes:

FFRATS

[Shed Dog Tosser]

If a CEO standing up in public and anouncing pay freezes was all it took to actually freeze pays, don't you think every CEO in the world would do exactly that ?.

It's enterprise bargaining, put PIA on the table and watch them change their tune.

Your EBA is dead when you vote yes to an inferior package, grow some stones, present a united pilot groups and maintain the rage.

[FFRATS]

TOSSER
That's my point, a knee jerk claim for a freeze (like the 5000 jobs to go) across the Qantas group regardless of if your currently covered or have been negotiating your EBA while the executives pay increases before and most likely after the announcement.

To implement a performance freeze so executive only got base salary, and not the bonus incentives would be like watching the Ark sinking during the Flood....Rats first out.

A pay freeze has been used in QF in recent times and the pilots never got back what they lost, the managers however 'high 5'ed' themselves the following years with massive bonuses.

FFRATS

[stillgoing]

Can't see a future at JQ: (yes an opening here for some sarcastic comments)

EBA negotiations are stalled
Pay freeze
No overtime
Commands appear to be running at 10years or more
FO's can see no future, many off to the sandpit
Pilot numbers 10% over
JQ route contractions
Junior FO's being shunted to NZ

Apart from the instability surely Tiger would be the better option for a new hire.

[waren9]

well, when you grow faster than you've earned for yourself and the parents money starts drying up i guess at some point the music is going to stop.

[Lookleft]

Apart from the instability surely Tiger would be the better option for a new hire.

You could rephrase that as "apart from the stability Jetstar would be the better option." Jetstar is not recruiting at the moment so both statements are redundant. If Tiger is recruiting then it is the only place that is. This industry operates in cycles so don't base your career choices on a short term view.

[CaptCloudbuster]

In June there are 2 sessions promulgated in our 737 Sim Roster allocated to Jetstar Interview

[Ted Nugent]

In June there are 2 sessions promulgated in our 737 Sim Roster allocated to Jetstar Interview

They won't happen :ok: