Search and rescue winch dialogue

[Phil_R]

Hi,

I'd be very grateful if anyone could take a minute to explain how the wording that's used during helicopter winching works. I've only heard fairly-unclear intercom recordings of it and it sounds like someone's saying things along the lines of "forward one and right...", etc. In some ways it's clear enough, forward one (one what?) and right (how far?), but I'm also not sure who's speaking - is it the guy at the top of the cable or the guy at the bottom?

Thanks for any info.

Regards,

P

[Tourist]

The distances are in bananas, and the man at the top is speaking.

(some use elephants, and even occasionally piano lengths)

[Herod]

It was apples in my day, bananas were reserved for navigators studying for line checks. Seriously, it's been many a moon since I last did any winching but, yes, it's the winch operator (the man in the cabin) doing the talking. The units were supposedly in feet, but once the winchman had got the "handle" on what the pilot thought was a foot, he adjusted his call accordingly. "Right two, left six, steady".

[RODF3]

The units were supposedly in feet, but once the winchman had got the "handle" on what the pilot thought was a foot, he adjusted his call accordingly. "Right two, left six, steady".

The standard unit (as taught at DHFS) (SAR units are much, much larger!!) is 2 m. The terminology of forward 1 and right, means i wish you to move forward 1 unit with a tendency to the right, if I wished you to move right 1 unit with a tendency forwards (or back) then it would be right 1 and forward. The primary axis is determined by using the angle to where you wish to move. If it is 45 degrees or less than straight ahead then it would be forward, more than 45 degrees to 135degrees then left ( or right), 135degrees to the 180 would be back.

[charliegolf]

The standard unit (as taught at DHFS) (SAR units are much, much larger!!) is 2 m. The terminology of forward 1 and right, means i wish you to move forward 1 unit with a tendency to the right, if I wished you to move right 1 unit with a tendency forwards (or back) then it would be right 1 and forward. The primary axis is determined by using the angle to where you wish to move. If it is 45 degrees or less than straight ahead then it would be forward, more than 45 degrees to 135degrees then left ( or right), 135degrees to the 180 would be back.

Blimey! Any chance of the offside rule for the missus?

CG

Oh, and up or down specifies the movement the winchop wants the pilot to perfom, so to avoid confusion, 'winching in' or 'out' is used, not winching up or down. Simples.

[Phil_R]

Thanks, folks.

-P

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

winchman in the cab


NB Winchman is the one dangling bravely beneath the aircraft, Winch Op is the one in the aircraft door controlling the winch and giving patter to the pilot.

[Tallsar]

Ah the mystical arts......and so wonderous too....and don't please ask if there is a difference between RAF, RN and CG philosophy and training on this!!! "easy steady" there guys!!:ugh::)

[Bertie Thruster]

Rear crew instructor Mr Clark, of '90's SARTU fame, would never admit that a staff SAR QHI could hold an accurate hover while he was briefing rear crew students for a winching demo.

His winch op demos always started with;

"To return to the start point....... forward, (pause), a 'quarter' "

.....and just as the pilot just twitched the cab forward not even an angstrom, he would say;

"Steady"

[sycamore]

Whilst sitting ,uncomfortably wearing an immersion suit and a back-pack dinghy,somewhere near a hover in Anglesey Bay,struggling to maintain 215-225 RRPM,computer- out(manual throttle),with a grip on the stick that would reshape it,and strangling the throttle,I became aware of Master(AEop/Eng/ALM) Tony ? Bates, standing on my right,wiping my face with a salty glove,and whispering( well shouting,actually)` Get that f£$%^&G RPM back to 219,lad or you`ll be on the wire next trip`,or some such encouragement; it broke the tension, and we proceeded apace after that..

[cornish-stormrider]

gurgle gurgle gloop = either winch in rapid or emergency climb

take your pick

[[email protected]]

Direction, Range and Tendency is how RAF voice marshalling is taught - the RN just make it up as they go along:) and have to say raising and lowering the winch because winching in and out is too simple!!!

[vecvechookattack]

Thats true. The phrase Winching in and Winching out was considered too simplistic, particularly when it came to using the Heave-Ho hoist. When using the HHH the phraseology was to say "Raising the hoist" or "Lowering the hoist" and so that stuck.

[Bigtop]

Crab - its not about simplicity - we just don't like you:ok:

[Fareastdriver]

I agree with Crab on this. I was taught at Valley yonks ago when SAR winching was part of the helicopter conversion. It served me well during my RAF time both winching over the sea and through trees and underslung work. When I entered civvy street there was a mix of ex RAF and FAA winchmen. The so called Navy conning was not up to the same standard and had too many long silences especially on one occassion when we were inserting a diesel engine back into a platform crane's engine bay.
In the Solomon Islands the Oz crewman we had were ex RAN but were trained the Air Force way. In China the Chinese winch operaters we had worked well until something went wrong, in which case it was now the captain's responsibility.

[Tiger_mate]

It is the word "descending" that is not compatable between services. In the RAF it means (I suggest you) descending (strangely) whilst in the RN it means "Hold the height knobber".

Otherwise RAF(SH&SAR) & RN is pretty much a variation on the same theme. ...and the units may as well be bananas.

The Luftwaffe crewman are not allowed to 'direct' (perceived as Order) the pilot which makes life interesting. Once oberhead a landingplatz the crewman states that the landingplatz is clear and all VM ceases as the pilot finds mother earth himself.

[Cabe LeCutter]

RODF3

I think that you will find that SAR and SH units are now supposed to be the same size after harmonisation a few years ago.
On the other hand, we all know what 6 inches looks like don't we.

Heads Down, Look out for the Flack

[Double Zero]

If not already stated, I understand ( as aviation photographer + yachtie ) that on some SAR Helo's such as IJ the winchman - bloke still aboard - has a remote control for fine movement in the hover ?

Then again the person who told me this was a particular B.S. Merchant, supposedly avionics type & freelance Coastguard.

When he - a rather rotund figure and not a great friend - told me he was going to be the demo' winch ( up & down ) guy at a Boat Show one year, I couldn't resist saying " I didn't know they used Chinooks for SAR " !

This did not go down well, as I was apparently the 20-30th person to mention that or wire strain testing...

BTW we yachties get a fair bit of info on SAR procedures, - the more the better but hearing VHF is a problem - and I for one have a yellow painted cockpit floor for winchmen to spot in case things go really tits up.

[vecvechookattack]

If not already stated, I understand ( as aviation photographer + yachtie ) that on some SAR Helo's such as IJ the winchman - bloke still aboard - has a remote control for fine movement in the hover ?


AHT - Auxiliary Hover Trim. Sea Kings and Merlin have it.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Good voice marshalling is a form of conning anyway. The radop has got to convince the handling pilot that all's going well down below when in actual fact it's teetering on the brink of disaster.

SARTU's anal retentiveness over voice marshalling pays huge dividends on the front line. Herod, you can't say right 2 followed by left 6 without some smaller numbers and a steady in the middle.:)

[Senior Pilot]

00,

The hover trim has been around for many a moon: 10% cyclic authority for the winch operator to move around when in auto hover. Originally fitted to the Sea King HAS1, before which (as sycamore mentions) all fine trim was at the pilot's whim.

RODF3, 2 metres seems a very coarse measurement? ISTR yards for horizontal movement, feet for vertical, but bananas and apples as we all well knew! All according to CPO (Aircrewman) Mooney: he of the broad Oirish accent, and the rather attractive daughter ;)

[Tiger_mate]

you can't say right 2 followed by left 6

Trying to recover a training drum that had been beached on a coral reef with a grapple just as a wave came along: That was exactly the 'con'! :ok: ..followed by a few expletives that are not found in the VM Handbook.

[[email protected]]

The SAR unit is variable in length because of the different levels of precision required depending on the type of rescue. Fwd 1 could be as little as 6 inches if you have stopped just short of a cliff-sticker and the winchman needs to be pressed onto the cliff face.

Tiger Mate - if we are inadvertantly descending, the winch op will say 'you are sinking' - maybe that's why the Navy don't like it:)

Fwd 1 back 6 is pretty standard patter for surf drums/wets!

[minigundiplomat]

What is the RN/RAF deffinition of the winch-op call of "steady"?

Does it mean hold position and height or just position.


I believe it is used by both in the same sense. To stop all lateral/forward & aft movement and hold position.

'Height is Good' serves the same purpose for vertical movement, ie hold the height and cancel any descent/climb.

For example does "steday & down 10" make sense?


Steady, Down 10 makes sense. 'and' is ommitted as it is superfluous.

[Cornish Jack]

TV - "Steady" means that you have arrived at where the W/Op wants you to be:ok: It will be repeated if the position remains good, otherwise the 'patter' will indicate what movement is needed. Many years ago (Whirly 10) we had a crewman stude who had an intermittent stutter generated by sybillants. His patter would go "Forward 5,4,3,2,1 Ssssssssss ... Back 6" He did not pass the course:(
Sycamore - Ah, yes, Master (Sig) Bates - (thought it was Roy??) He, together with Ricky Windon and Gene Batten got me operational in '64. First wets in a leaky immersion suit in April left me numb and near incapable of movement. They dragged me into the (very) hot shower and once I was mobile again stuffed a LARGE glass of 'pusser's' rum down me - almost worth the agony for that:ok:
Happy, happy days.

[RODF3]

I think that you will find that SAR and SH units are now supposed to be the same size after harmonisation a few years ago.


Agreed, but having done both recently, they ain't.

[ShyTorque]

AHT was also fitted to some Sikorsky S-76s.

[Double Zero]

SAR everywhere,

Having just got my computer back I'm able to say thanks to you all, & particularly those who replied to me ( as a yachtie ).

To be pefectly honest it's a matter of horror & excitement if a SAR helo' approaches in case one gets picked on for practice !

I think nowadays it would be excitement for me, but although we yachties do get some info, and I'm delighted to fly, know about static shocks, hearing anything even with internal and cockpit speakers is impossible once the aircraft is near.

I know on approach there's often a request to steer a certain course, but even catching that can be a snag either due to aircraft noise or nagging girlfriend etc !

[[email protected]]

Double Zero - the course asked for will almost always be a close hauled port tack for sailing vessels - that is because it allows the aircraft to be pointed into wind approximately 40 degrees off the boat heading, giving the pilot some hover references and an escape route away from the boat for both aircraft and winchman in the event of an engine failure.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the winchman - bloke still aboard


Never mind eh? :ugh:

[sycamore]

C-Jack, you are correct,M/Sig Roy Bates...great time we had at Valley..in the summertime..

[Double Zero]

Torque O D,

Re. 'winchman, the bloke still aboard' Yes I could have phrased it better as controller, but I think you get the idea...

BTW I'm sure most SAR people must be trained on this ( I've photographed from most things, fast jets to balloons & Jet Rangers but not SAR ) - sailing boats work by 'spilling wind', ie as they heel over the wind goes over the top of the sails, relieving centre of lateral effort pressure; a helo' works like a katabatic wind ( rotoring down not along ) and can blow a boat down - unless it's a dinghy it's not disastrous just awkward.

I've been sailing & instructing for 40 years - inc being a chief instructor for BAe, I would guess the instinctive reaction to that would be ' why didn't I drown them ' ?!

[Cornish Jack]

Sycamore - slightly long-winded thread creep but your description of Whirly 10 'computer out' brought back memories of a Master Pilot returning to helos after original Whirly 4 ops. (Whirlwind Mk4 was piston engined and required a deal of co-ordination of twist-grip throttle and collective to maintain the narrow band of correct rotor revs)
On the 10 'normal' flying had 'computer' control to allow automatic throttle compensation for collective movement. If you selected 'computer out' you reverted to twist-grip co-ordination. Said Master Pilot was never the most accurate in the hover when computer-in but the moment he went computer-out, it all calmed down and the rotor revs never varied!!

[nick986]

So what is a dope on a rope?

[minigundiplomat]

The higher end of the lead in a RAF Police dog team.

[Mmmmnice]

All this SARboy talk is getting me all dicomknockerated - they told me at SARTU it was all black magic and not to be messed with by simple SH types.......don't you just love em?

[charliegolf]

they told me at SARTU it was all black magic and not to be messed with by simple SH types

I went for 2 weeks, long before computers. Do think they've moved that line onto a PowerPoint by now?:ok:

CG

[Sun Who]

No, it'll still be on acetate.

Sun

[Moose Loadie]

Just remember the magic word, "correction"!!

[minigundiplomat]

I always thought the magic word was 'abracadabra'

[david parry]

Wafu Aircrewmen, could patter , all day long on a Winchex, Downwind, Running in, Line height and speed is good, 5O yards to run, Strop going out, Easy Easy Steady, and Steady and Steady, Steady at that. Strop in the water, Survivor in the stop, Up ten Feet. Winching in, Survivor at the door, Survivor clear of the strop and safely inboard, Winch housed, and clear cct

[sunshine band]

The Chuckle brothers time on the SAR fleet was short lived.

"Winching"
"To you"
"To me"
"To you"
"To me"
"To you"
"To me"
"To you"
"To me"
"To you"
"To me"
"To you"
"To me"
"Aw, bugger, they've sunk... lets go home for tea"

[Senior Pilot]

Whirlwind 7: midshipman (me) driving, CPO Mooney in charge, Sproule net practice.

Height line and speed is good
Line is good, up 5
Line is good, up 10
Line is good, come up
Will you come up, me fooking feet are getting wet....

[Occasional Aviator]

Winching as experience (bottle check?) for a TA unit, including some females of a certain reputation...

Crewman's Patter once we had arrived at 'Steady' position:

Winching out
Strop at the survivor
Survivor in the strop
Winching in
10 feet of cable to come
5 feet of cable to come
Survivor at the door
Working with the survivor
winching out
Strop at the survivor
Survivor in the strop
Winching in
10 feet of cable to come
5 feet of cable to come
Survivor at the door
Working with the survivor
winching out
Strop at the survivor
Survivor in the strop
Winching in
10 feet of cable to come

(Silence)

They're out! They're out!

Cockpit crew: What? What's happened? did the survivor fallout?

C'man: No, they're out!

Cockpit crew looks back into the cabin to see young lady being helped in the door with a big smile and doing her shirt back up.