Durban. If aircraft refuse to move we will tow them away,

[beamender99]

BBC Sport - Football - World Cup 2010: Delayed fans may be compensated - Fifa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8801094.stm)

[Feline]

Local radio stations have covered this the whole day. It appears that the VIP flights (including a 757) were allowed to land at King Shaka first, and then refused to transfer to transfer to Durban International. So there wasn't any room for incoming scheduled flights. It was then reported that the CAA had issued a NOTAM some weeks ago to the effect that private flights would be required to depart 30 minutes after landing. Some pilots refused - and a later caller pointed out that Durban International has been handed over to the military and does not now have civilian ATC (and presumably fire and crash facilities) which could mean that incoming civilian flights would not be insured. Also, air space over the stadium and the surrounding area around has been declared prohibited air space, and the stadium is pretty close to Durban International.

Altogether a Right Royal B*lls*p with more than 700 very angry fans (more than 700 because some people had already made it to the stadium but couldn't get in because their tickets were with someone on a flight back to Johannesburg or Durban).

Needless to say, the buck is now being circulated at slightly more than transonic speed. Despite soothing words from FIFA, the general consensus is that those who didn't make it to the game are unlikely to get any compensation.

Sad!

[White Knight]

were allowed to land at King Shaka first, and then refused to transfer to transfer to Durban International.

Errr.... King Shaka IS the new DUR.... The old DUR south of the city is all closed up:D:D (Well, it's supposed to be but then again TIA)

[Feline]

Errr -- Yes White Knight! EXACTLY the point - ACSA wanted the VIP flights to vacate real estate at (the new) King Shaka by taking off and making their way to park up at the (old) Durban International despite the fact that they had themselves already closed Durban International and further despite the fact that such a transfer would (almost certainly) require transit through prohibited air space over the stadium ... So I guess the pilots who refused had some legitimate grounds to refuse the transfer ... Would have been kind of interesting if ACSA had actually towed the aircraft - It's about 60 Km from King Shaka to Durban International - right through downtown Durban ... Doh!

[nugpot]

ACSA had forgotten to inform operators of a few small details when they assumed that they would move to the old DIA.

1. They required an indemnity form the operator to indemnify them (ACSA) from all claims if damage occurred at DIA which is officially closed as a civilian airfield and operated by the military.

2. Operators required Air Force clearances to fly over the stadium (which lies directly between the two airports and with 10 nm of both.

3. A/c at KSIA were waiting for up to 4 hours for fuel before they could reposition (no fuel at DIA).

4. No Jepp plates for DIA. How do foreigners operate into a completely unknown airfield at night?

As a further point, there was plenty of space left at KSIA for parking, but ACSA was completely unable to manage the situation. Anyone who has had any dealings with Apron Control anywhere in SA would know why ....



ACSA, don't try to shift the blame to the pilots and operators. You screwed this up all by yourselves.

[transducer]

After finally landing at KSIA late Wednesday evening when the match had all but finished I looked around in amazement and saw lots of tar and concrete that did not have aircraft on it, yes there were ALOT of aircraft but there was obvious space. A four year old could have done the puzzle of parking the bizjets nose to tail that were spending the night, even the big boys that were spending the night could have been towed out of the bays and parked nose to tail and rotated accordingly so as to prevent delays for their departure the next morning.

As for blaming CAMU, with my experience, between the hours of 4am to 8am when the system was down the air traffic was most probably at its most efficient being handle by a human ATC as it was before the advent CAMU. The snarl up most probably happened when the system came back online again.

[Selfloader]

Whoooo-hooo. Boy is Tom Chalmers, the editor of World Airnews, going to have a field day with this fiasco in his next edition. He has been hammering the whole King Shaka airport concept for the last 6 months saying it was unnecessary, badly designed and that the project a waste of money. Can't wait to read what he has to say. I realise the circumstances are exceptional, but never the less I think "I told you so" would be in order.

[27Foxtrot]

I can't recall the wording of the NOTAM/AIP SUP but it said something along the lines of "the procedure is land, off load, reposition". If they weren't happy with that, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE FLOWN TO FALE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Seriously, you, whom ever you are, are not so important you can ignore the rules. The excessive selfishness of the VIP's is to blame. Flying to an airport subject to NOTAM action is tacit acception of what is NOTAM'd. If you don't want to reposition, go hold over the Indian ocean. Go back to FAJS. Anything, besides assume because you are rich the rules don't apply.

[chuks]

Me, not very many but I did notice a tiny, tiny hint of "I am rich and the usual rules do not apply!" in most of them, yes...

Otherwise, why not fly in the day before and stay in a nice hotel, no stress for anyone and then take a limo to the game? That is a bit of a no-brainer except for the bragging points of flying in just ahead of a whole lot of other folks, when you would have tacitly accepted that, yes, the rules do apply to you too.

If you make it that far, try explaining to a VIP pax that he's facing a gate-hold or not having an arrival slot, see how that one goes down. You may be in the dole queue so fast your head will swim. Another one is telling Mr Bigdome that the weather is no good so that he is going to have to divert or wait. Hoh-hoh!

[errorplaneone]

Wednesday night in Durban from a Flight Crew perspective was problematic.

We were enroute to Durban carrying just over half an hour of holding fuel because of the expected delays, and after holding for nearly half an hour and then being vectored on a 40nm downwind for RW24, we were operating on tight fuel margins. After landing there was further chaos as parking bays were full. We could not raise Apron Control since in true African fashion, when things go t1ts up they just stop talking
on the radio (if you've been flying into Africa you won't tell me it isn't true). It looked like aircraft were double parked in some places. (All those nice lofty ICAO specs about wingtip separation and minimum distances etc. clearly got tossed out as ACSA & ATNS made room for the rapidly growing pile of cash from parking fees, approach charges, enroute charges)

Where does the blame lie? In a commercial world there's always someone who has to pay, so as was mentioned higher up here, the buck is being passed faster than a low cost carrier in the descent.

ATNS & ACSA have blamed their customers for the chaos. Let's put this in perspective:
Both companies are 'controllers' and allocate airspace and airport-space on behalf of the state. They purport to offer a professional & safe world-class service and therefore charge for such service.
So... they control how customers make use of their services, but then blame customers for causing problems because the very systems that were put in place to alleviate above-capacity demands have failed!

Furthermore, as entities operating on behalf of the state, they have an obligation to allocate resources to benefit the majority rather than the few (a muddy concept in Africa) - so a simple planning exercise would have meant space was easily reserved for the scheduled carriers who generate more cash annually for the state than a few once-off bizjets, and only excess capacity would be given away to private operators.
A system of exponential charging for private operators occupying unallocated slots in the air or on the ground would provide great incentive to operators to shift to other airports and also make money available to refund scheduled carriers for unnecessary diversions, holding etc, and to ticket holders for missing soccer matches! (In an ideal world )

[What frustrated me on Wednesday was that light charters - King Airs and light jets were taking up space that was needed by aircraft carrying many times the number of passengers]

So what is the result?

Joe Passenger walks away having not arrived at destination (and missing his soccer match that he spent thousands of euros to get half way across the world to watch)

Joe Airline bears the direct and extended costs of diversions.

South Africa looks foolish for employing clowns to operate air traffic services and state airports. (Not blaming the ATC's themselves, they obviously worked under enormous strain and did a great job within the constraints of the situation)

ACSA and ATNS walk away with a pile of money to help pay for the shiny new airport - and the extent of their obligation is a written apology to the public which isn't worth the newspaper it's printed on.

The Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT) system seemed to crumble under the pressure - ATNS chucked this out of the window at exactly the time that it surely was needed!
Was the great expense, the ball-ache and inconvenience of implementation not designed to handle such situations?

I heard on the news today that ACSA/ATNS (not sure who) offered to set aside R400 000 for 'compensation'! I think perhaps they left out a zero or two, because that amount will barely pay for the toilet paper they will need to wipe the s**t out of their eyes.

With all of the above said and done, if I was a tourist (yes, even if it was in a developed country) I would ensure I was reasonably near to my destination the day before, knowing full well that stuff ups tend to happen as time gets short!

[transducer]

In the first line of the NOTAM it said something along the line that scheduled traffic would be given preference. Do the maths, one bizjet with 12 pax or one scheduled airliner with 130 pax.

Just because you arrive in a bizjet does not make you a VIP it just means you can afford it. I bet you there were more important people on the scheduled airliners. Lets stop talking about the bizjets as VIP as they are not unless carrying a head of state or the Blatter himself!

[nugpot]

I can't recall the wording of the NOTAM/AIP SUP but it said something along the lines of "the procedure is land, off load, reposition". If they weren't happy with that, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE FLOWN TO FALE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Seriously, you, whom ever you are, are not so important you can ignore the rules. The excessive selfishness of the VIP's is to blame. Flying to an airport subject to NOTAM action is tacit acception of what is NOTAM'd. If you don't want to reposition, go hold over the Indian ocean. Go back to FAJS. Anything, besides assume because you are rich the rules don't apply.

27FOXTROT, why don't you keep your comments limited to something that you actually know about. You can't force an aircraft into the air via NOTAM. Crews refused to reposition when they were asked to sign an indemnity before using DIA. I'm sure your boss would be ecstatic when you prang his $50 mil jet and the insurance refuses to pay because you have flown into a disused airfield and you have indemnified the owner.

ACSA screwed up. The operators looked after their equipment.

[Kittycat]

nugpot :D

[27Foxtrot]

Nugpot, What?

You have got to be kidding me. "keep your comments limited to something that you actually know about" ?!?

Honestly, go stick your head in the toilet.

You can't force an aeroplane into the air with a NOTAM, no. But you can use it to follow legal proceedings after the fact.

IF they didn't want to fly to FADN, they should not have bloody well gotten in the air in the first place, or done what any pilot is required to do when they can not follow an instruction, ask for a different one.

They could quite easily have transfered to FAJS, FAPE, FAEL, FAGG, FACT, FAUP or FAKM and FABL.

The NOTAM was sent in time to meet the required AIRAC cycle, so there is absolutely NO excuse for getting to FALE and then crying foul. The status and availability of FADN was know and avilable for ages.

What you are saying is like an aeroplane demanding to land on a runway that's NOTAM'd shut. Or whining about having to get a FAC number.

IF your boss is to frikken pig headed that he wants to fly his private jet into a field that has published retrictions for time on the ground, AND THEN NOT STICK TO IT, he can actually suck up his $50 million jet being moved somewhere else.

ACSA dropped the ball by not 1) closing FALE once they hit max. 2) not enforcing the 30 min for medium turn around time.

The operators screwed the pooch by only arriving the day of the game. HELL and high water the capacity of Durbs is 24 movements/hour the simple number of aeroplanes trying to get in there meant they had to start flying in at about 4pm the previous day. The CAMU issued slots were running from 0300 in the morning. Go look at how many of your precious VIP/ bizjet owners used their slots.....

Errorplaneone
ATNS & ACSA have blamed their customers for the chaos. Let's put this in perspective:



Yes, lets.


So... they control how customers make use of their services, but then blame customers for causing problems because the very systems that were put in place to alleviate above-capacity demands have failed!

so a simple planning exercise would have meant space was easily reserved for the scheduled carriers who generate more cash annually for the state than a few once-off bizjets, and only excess capacity would be given away to private operators.
A system of exponential charging for private operators occupying unallocated slots in the air or on the ground would provide great incentive to operators to shift to other airports and also make money available to refund scheduled carriers for unnecessary diversions, holding etc, and to ticket holders for missing soccer matches! (In an ideal world )

SO you think everything revolves around money? They would have got the guys whining about the FADN paperwork off the ground when the NOTAM clearly stated you get 30 min "free parking" otherwise the MANY will get screwed over by the FEW.

The same NOTAM that was pre planned, and published inside the required AIRAC cycle?

FADN was not the only option.



[What frustrated me on Wednesday was that light charters - King Airs and light jets were taking up space that was needed by aircraft carrying many times the number of passengers]

EXACTLY. The same bloody "light jets" that were meant to drop and go that didn't. THIS IS AN OPERATOR ERROR. The plan was in place, the players, the guys holding the stick messed it up.

They weren't following the plan. "looking after your equipment" by contravening the NOTAM does NOT give you free reign to then shout at perceived faults in the system IF YOU MESS THE SYSTEM UP.

But what do I know. I only fly single engine planes. I've only managed to make it to airshows with small arrival windows, and stuck to schedules, odd parking instructions and the like. Obviously the lack of oxygen in bizjets and flying busses destroys braincells.

You know what? Continue shouting at the guys who put plans in place, and don't blame the people who actually messed the plans up, that's good airmanship.

Hope I never actually fly in the same airspace as you guys.

[nugpot]

Hope I never actually fly in the same airspace as you guys.

Actually, it does not seem that you fly at all.

ACSA dropped the ball by not 1) closing FALE once they hit max. 2) not enforcing the 30 min for medium turn around time.
1. They never hit max. The parking management was a shambles.
2. Difficult when you have one bowser. What are you going to do for those without fuel, launch them with a catapult?

Sorry, my previous opinion of you stands.

[birrddog]

Just because you arrive in a bizjet does not make you a VIP it just means you can afford it.
Uhm, take it up with ACSA.

If I arrive at an airport like FAJS, in a GA aircraft, I have to engage a service agent. This service agent charges me the price equivalent to a scheduled ticket to meet me in a bus, and drive me to the terminal building.

To justify this daylight (or nighttime) robbery, they call it "VIP".

So, according to ACSA, arriving in a bizjet does make you a VIP.

If you have a problem with it, I suggest you write to them, and see how far that gets you.

[Maurice Chavez]

27Foxtrot,

If you indeed fly single engine aircraft, may I suggest you stick to that alone and leave your comments elsewhere. Just as Nugs, I was in DUR that Wednesday, twice that day actually. Don't know where you were, but I'm sure you weren't in DUR!

ACSA and ACSA alone managed to f*ck the whole thing up. Parking wasn't utilized as it should be (cargo ramp empty). There was space for plenty more aircraft, had ACSA pulled their heads out of their @sses. Come to think of it, do you ,27Foxtrot, work for them?

[cavortingcheetah]

Of course, at the end of the evening's performance, does it really matter much now? The world dribbling championships are as good as over, the octopus will be defeated in his prognostications and the spoilt and wilful rich brats, bastards and assorted bog artists who follow such events like a motley horde of sex starved camp followers all departed to where they glitter best. The Olympics are next of course but they may not quite get as far south as South Africa. Can you imagine the effect of 93,000 Vuvu horns on the concentration of a pole vaulter or a parallel bar gymnast? Mind you, by then SA might have found a replacement for that symbol of cultural heritage and divinity which in any event, the last time I looked, was a petrol soaked Ford Escort tire. If someone wants to have fun with the thing, pull the relevant tapes, see who said what to whom about moving from whence to where and then use the resultant dialogues as an efficiency guideline for Level V English?

[errorplaneone]

It is regrettable that 27Foxtrot demonstrates the (s)he is not an individual who enjoys a rational discussion of the facts. There are fewer holes in a Swiss cheese than in some of 27F's arguments - which are nothing more than a collection of far reaching statements based in emotion and some warped sense of loyalty to the beloved employer.

Are you maybe a Cape Town ATC with a PPL? Well, so far you're showing yourself to be about as competent as a radio operator in Apron Control at King Shaka on Wednesday night. Perhaps you would be so kind as to leave us hypoxic bus drivers to discuss the issues at hand in a sensible manner.

(The mental gymnastics of the debate will exercise our surviving brain cells and may ultimately bring us around to your point of view. You could of course look on with compassion and pity while we aspire to the dizzying heights of ATNS competence)

You ATC blokes are squeezing VFR flights out of the controlled airspace system more and more, so it seems your wish not to fly in the same airspace as us, is coming true. :ouch:

Finally, I ask you nicely... please don't disappoint me with a lukewarm reply - I'm looking for all the fire and brimstone you can muster with plenty of 'hashes' ;), asterisks, angry icons, bold text and more anecdotal stories about ATNS & CAMU and their role in effectively managing air traffic in good ol' RSA.

:}

[Feline]

I must admit to a wan smile at errorplaneone’s Gross Understatement:

Wednesday night in Durban from a Flight Crew perspective was problematic.

And I’m sure that it was even more problematic for CC who, after all, were right there, back with all the fans (and be it noted that football fans are not noted for their phlegmatic acceptance that sh*t happens, unless they are actually causing the sh*t to happen …). Very glad I wasn’t there …
I am so pleased that ACSA has seen fit to put aside R400 000 to compensate passengers who didn’t make it to the match. Let’s see - R400 000 divided by 600 – that comes to, Errrm – about R667 per passenger. I’m sure that they will all be delighted and that it will make the problem go away. Not!
This offer could yet prove to be yet another ill-considered decision – I’m sure the lawyers will argue up a storm that it demonstrates acceptance of liability.
My thanks to the most of the posters subsequent to my original post describing this incident as a “Right Royal B*lls*p” for filling in chapter and verse as to exactly why and how it became a Right Royal B*lls*P, and who was responsible.
Like I said before – Sad! (and sad too that some posters had to get all personal).
It would be nice to think that some lessons could be learnt out of this, nicer still if some of those responsible could have their incompetence rewarded by re-deployment to the unemployed sector.

Well, we can but dream – not so?

Footnote: In an organisation in which I once served, the phrase 027foxtrot would have indicated that call sign 027 was now proceeding on foot. An appropriate suggestion perhaps?

[transducer]

If I arrive at an airport like FAJS, in a GA aircraft, I have to engage a service agent. This service agent charges me the price equivalent to a scheduled ticket to meet me in a bus, and drive me to the terminal building.

To justify this daylight (or nighttime) robbery, they call it "VIP".

So, according to ACSA, arriving in a bizjet does make you a VIP.

If you have a problem with it, I suggest you write to them, and see how far that gets you.

So Birddog what you are saying is that if I arrive in a Baron, which is a GA aircraft, on a charter I am a VIP. Try and use THAT argument with ACSA and see how far it gets you. 122,65 will park you on the Pamona Road bridge! Go and look at the ICAO protocol of what is a VIP and I can tell you that all but a few pax in the bizjets were certainly NOT VIP's. Heads of State eg. South African 1/2, German Airforce 1/2, etc. and the odd previously agreed aircraft like FIFA 1/2 are VIP in an ICAO airspace and take precedence over scheduled traffic. Miss Hilton, Theron and the likes are not VIP's, they are dignitaries at an event on the ground and not VIP's in ICAO airspace.

The crux of the matter was non enforcement of previously published NOTAMS/AIP's by ACSA and ATNS, which catered for this very predicament. Yes the NOTAMS/AIP's had holes in them wrt FADN as mentioned by nugpot which should have been realised by the CAA who are very strict about what a licenced aerodrome is seeing as though the CAA published the AIP's.

[nugpot]

The crux of the matter was non enforcement of previously published NOTAMS/AIP's by ACSA and ATNS, which catered for this very predicament.

Unenforceable NOTAM's. Typical South African Gov'ment wishful thinking. Make a law and the problem will go away.

[transducer]

Nugpot. Just edited, while you were typing, my post above which agrees with your statements.

[nugpot]

The worst thing about this KSIA business is that it is the first real screw-up of the whole SWC. We actually managed to pull it off, at the same time getting ordinary South Africans behind a sport which whites just don't watch and support.

I am immensely proud of my country and all the participants for making this work. I just cannot handle the blatant lying of ACSA to cover their crap management of the KSIA saga.

Cape Town managed to pull off the same traffic load with one runway the previous day, although the SAAF base helped a lot for parking.

[DaFly]

http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5800697&posted=1#post5800697

[birrddog]

transducer, don't shoot the messenger; as I stated, it is ACSA who used the term VIP, and as it is their airport, they are entitled to do so.

Last time I checked it is ATNS who controlled the airspace, and not ACSA, so as the problems had to primarily do with Ramp space and not Airspace, I'm not sure how the ICAO VIP Airspace rules come into play.

I am no cheerleader for ACSA, and quite frankly they screwed the pooch here.

It seems every other airport planned ahead for the constraints of the SWC, on the ground and in the air.