Oxford Aviation Academy (Merged 2010)

[Omlaaay]

Is Oxford Aviation Academy worth the cost?

To do the integrated ATPL(A) APP F/O Training is £66,000 and I know it's cheaper to go down the Modular Route but does going to Oxford Aviation Academy mean better job prospects?

Call me naive in what I say, but I am still only at Secondary School and I'm just curious for the future.

Thanks. :)

[hollingworthp]

I wouldn't worry about it now - you can't train for another 4 years and who knows what the market and FTO's (or their relative costs) will be like at that time.

By all means start saving all your spare cash and concentrate on physics and maths but not much more you can do at this point in time.

[fabbe92]

I was in the same position when I was 14:) You shouldn´t worry about it now, just work hard in school and maybe if you have time and money, get a PPL or Gliding license when you get a little older. You can´t know now how the situation will be when it´s time for you to train.

[Afraz]

Listen to what hollingworthp has said. Its good advice.

All the best.

[eocvictim]

Whats the minimum age to fly in the UK? Why shouldn't he start now? If he works hard he could be a CPL by 18 like any young pilot.

[Cpt. Sunshine]

You have to be 14 years of age to log hours in the UK, but you can take lessons at any age provided you can reach the controls.

Re: Oxford/FTE/Cabair/CTC Integrated courses. My training is 5-10yrs away yet (medical permitting, gulp) but I'm avoiding the Integrated schools like the plague. From people I know/ have spoken to places like Stapleford Flight Centre and Multiflight who offer modular training are better value for money. You come out at the end with the same piece of paper and most recruiters will only care how good YOU are. Think about it, an airline's investment in you as a young FO is >£15k for the Type Rating. They want you to succeed and hit the line ASAP so a less able Integrated student shouldn't gain anything over a more able student. Having said that, students may do better with the "better facilities and training" at an Integrated school. Merely speculation. I'm sure if you put the effort in doing the Modular Route then you'd be just as good (and probably better) than many Integrated students.

Isn't there a sticky about this?

[Cpt. Sunshine]

Golfdriver,

I only used the phrase "better facilities and training" in jest, to try and highlight the overly inflated opinions people have of Integrated Schools.

I, myself, am a modular guy. Though I haven't started training yet, I have decided the modular route is for me, not just because of the financial considerations but because of the flexibility.

Finally, I couldn't agree with your opinions more. Sorry if I managed to hack you off, but I was just trying to provide balance in my post.

Thanks,
Cpt. Sunshine

[aviator_kool]

Hey Guys can you all please help me out and suggest me, whether OAA is a good institution to do B737-800 NG Type Rating??

And also does it matter in the Induction Process in an Airline Company if you have not done your type rating course form CAE and done it from OAA???

Please People its urgent I need to take a Decision as soon as possible.:ugh:

Regards.

[aviation.freak]

Hi everyone!!!

I'm new here, but I have been reading your previous post regarding OAA, and got really confused.... I got through the online application selection for MPL Flybe Cadet Program offered by OAA, currently I am killing every second of my free time with the aptitude tests, getting ready for the assessment process. What caught my attention, was the fact that the modular training, regardless where it have been completed, is equal to the ab-initio course offered for example by OAA..... Is that general opinion about the ab-initio trainings really so misleading? :confused: Would really appreciate any answer, as I got really confused..... Thanks a million.

[D O Guerrero]

Golfdriver - you're talking out of your arse. I did integrated. At Oxford.
I never called anyone Sir, nor was I required or asked to. Secondly, whilst their are a lot of faults with OAA, they do take standardisation seriously and make effort to make sure that people are being trained the same way.

[Whirlygig]

The only difference I can see is that you get to walk around in a uniform and have to address your Instructor as "sir" - so if you think the price difference is worth that - well words fail me!
Any of you lot heard of literary hyperbole? :rolleyes: Words fail me!

Hyperbole is intentional exaggeration used as a figure of speech for comedy or emphasis.


I am surprised at the number of responses to Golfdriver's comment ... are all integrated students such insecure and defensive little flowers? :}

Cheers

Whirls

[mad_jock]

I have also spoken to an ex-OAT instructor (who was an old fart) who voiced his concern's about standards and quality.

Apparently the output from the US can swing either way with some very strange ideas on airmanship getting mixed into the equation.

I was asking him about the lack of DME arc training and the 10 knt xwind limits. When it came up.

He was in full agreement though with the issue of alot of grads have issues with coming across as a cocky wee ****es flying the line. And even admitted himself that he replied to his CP "no comment" when the subject of doing a deal with Oxford for preferential CV screening came up.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Two points.

Firstly - when I worked there the flying instructors had to be called either "sir" or Mr. then their sirname. I don't know what the ground instructors were called.
Secondly - Before you went to Sainsburys after groundschool why didn't you get changed out of the uniform and back to "civvies"?

[mad_jock]

err because they were cocky wee ****es perhaps with crap handeling skills who talked a better shag than they could fly an approach?

If you could score in the super market for looking like a security guard it was money well spent on a Intergrated course.

The fact they can't land in more than 10 knots x-wind or fly a DME arc is imaterial. o and of course they are cocky wee ****es who are pain in the arse to line train.

[hollingworthp]

As per, it is a broad brush being somewhat unfairly applied here methinks. I had no problems during my line training thanks.

Certainly none of this sir bollocks during my ME training (Aug 08-Dec 08)

And don't forget that the 10kt limit and DME arcing is not through lack of ability but policy applied from above by OAA

Can't argue with the security guard bit mind :ok:

[rogerg]

[QUOTE][http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/419519-ba-747-crew-commended.html/QUOTE]

These "cocky wee ****es" learnt something on the way!

[rogerg]

The above does not seem to work, anyway you can find the post if your interested.
As an aside I dont remember ever being taught a DME arc approach during my instrument training. That was RAF and Stapleford. Soon learnt it when I had to fly to Belfast and Edinburgh in a 1-11.

[rogerg]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/419519-ba-747-crew-commended.html This one does.

[dan19ppl]

hi guys, im set to go to oxford for modular training and am wondering if there is anyone who has just come back from or also going to oxford who knows of cheap accommodation or is looking for someone to rent with. Many thanks

[fabbe92]

Not wort the cost!! I was in the same situation as you, only a year or two ago. I know that at your age you won´t listen to anyone. I thought all the guys here were nuts and that I was the king of the world. But believe me how much I´ve learned from the guys at pprune in only a year. I´ve just turned 18 and I am begining to understand more and more about the economical climate and how much money we actually are prepared to borrow. You should relax for now and focus on your grades. Maybe if you have time and money, get a PPL or Gliding. When you finish school you should consider your options, modular is much cheaper, it gives you more ability to control time and things like that. Integrated isn´t in anyway better and Oxford students doesn´t get hired at all, at this time. Oxford is only a good name that are world champions on promoting themselves. It´s a load of crap! Don´t go integrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can only hope that you will listen to me since I am very young and I was 10 times worse than you.

People here have years of experience and they know what they are talking about! So do like me and grabb all advice you can get from them, and good luck:ok:

[Kiltie]

I have flown with 4 Oxford trained integrated course pilots in the last 12 months, each with less than 1000hrs total experience; all were pleasant company and competent operators both in handling and overall procedure.

Prior to that I flew with 2 Jerez trained integrated course pilots who were of the same competence as those from Oxford.

[rogerg]

I have flown with 4 Oxford trained integrated course pilots in the last 12 months, each with less than 1000hrs total experience; all were pleasant company and competent operators both in handling and overall procedure.

Dont let Mad Jock hear you, he will be after you with his haggis!!

[PPRuNeUser0173]

I think your decision to go shopping "on the way home" is of course very sensible but if you felt awkward in your uniform as you suggested - you could always take a change of shirt, tie, put on a pullover or do something to make yourself less conspicuous!

[clanger32]

Rex,
I also trained at Oxford and share many of your viewpoints.

However I rather suspect the point being made by coldplayer about x winds, is that if it truly WAS gusting 30/35 then it was dog**** airmanship to even attempt a landing, given you were outside of limits. Also you should at the very least have recognised that during solo flying phase you'd (excluding prior experience) have had no more than about 75 hours max and that therefore these conditions were outside your ability to handle safely.

When I was in GYR, Flying was banned if X winds were FORECAST to go above 17 and for solos the duty instructor had to sign you out based on a X wind limit assigned by your instructor, compared to TAF.

As I say, I do agree wiht most of what you have said - but this point is unarguable....if you did get caught in unforseen weather, gusting up to twice your AIRCRAFT demonstrated limit, then I'm fairly certain the school would have wanted you to divert Mobile. Claiming anything otherwise just kinda makes Mad Jocks point.

[Groundloop]

Oh come on! I felt I could handle the conditions and seeing as we were unauthorised to fly into Mobile solo I didnt consider it (especially not with the dodgy Germans and their lack of position reports). The fact that I am here talking to you now proves I was not incorrect in my judgement.

This is beginning to illustrate exactly the point some people have been making about OAA students.

Whether you felt you could "handle the conditions" or not is irrelevant. If the reported xwinds are above the certified limits for the aircraft (or pilot) you do not land. You hold or divert.

The fact that I am here talking to you now proves I was not incorrect in my judgement.

No, it proves you got lucky and got away with it!

[Whirlygig]

So you're telling me never in your life have you broken a rule just a little bit?? But this isn't about "life"; it's about aviation and I, for one, have never broken an aviation rule. Obviously you have Rex and are now back-pedalling - it's not big and it's not clever.

Cheers

Whirls

[thetimesreader84]

You broke a crosswind limit. "Big deal" you say "I got away with it, I could handle the conditions, I didn't want to get into trouble diverting"

My question is this. Would you descend below Decision Height, without the required visual reference? After all, it was forecast above minima when you departed, and if you have to divert the commercial department will be all over your ass. You can handle the conditions, you can get away with it...

Same thought process applied to a different situation, and it doesnt look too clever does it? Remember your HPL? different attitudes?

You've taken a bit of a slating. Not because you went to oxford, but because you have admitted to being a bit reckless, and a bit of a fool. Put it down to the inexperience of youth, learn from it, and move on.

All The Best

TTR

[clanger32]

Rex,
I'm honestly not trying to have a go at "you", but pointing out that you have to be very careful with what you say. You mention that simply the three letters "OAA" spark fury in people, so why give them ammunition. Opinions like Mad Jock's are formed by people making ill thought out comments that they can seize on.

Yes, I don't think there's a person on this board, or any other, that would say weather forecasting is an exact science and I fully accept that it can turn nasty(ier) than planned in no time at all. But the point is, exactly as Groundloop pointed out, if you're out of limits you stay in the circuit until such time as you can make an approach or you divert to alternate. You're right to say we weren't cleared to land at Mobile solo, but [Not sure if you were there after P Taylor took over as CFI, or whether it was still Tom] I'll bet good money either would have backed you landing away at Mobile rather than making an approach in ~35k x-wind. If you genuinely landed in anything approach 30k X-wind then get over your pride and accept that it was really poor airmanship to have even tried. Put it this way, the instructors wouldn't try landing in that and you certainly weren't better than those guys, even with tons of natural ability, with 75hours under your belt

FWIW, My opinion on this is actually formed from the fact that I had exactly the kind of sudden weather shift you're talking about, just before touch down whilst flying 9844S landing on 21. Basically got hit by C.25k gust direct across the runway at touchdown, causing me to weathercock. I got away with it. I didn't "handle it correctly", I got away with it. And I damn near had to change my trousers. Tower called extreme caution for all in circuit for Windshear on final, so I know it wasn't me. I wasn't exactly liberal with chances anyway - possibly cos I'm an old git, but that taught me exactly how little I knew.

The other point to consider is that you can get away with it 99 times, but you only have to NOT get away with it once. The rules are there so that you have that safety margin that you CAN do it almost all the time.

I too think Mad Jocks Wildly sweeping statement is laughably naieve and I think it shows him(her?) in a terribly bad light (especially considering some of the things I've seen mod students do!) -but you've absolutely fed him here.

edited to say that the original point about OAA students being unable to handle crosswinds - let's face it, you only learn X-wind landings by DOING them. When I was in GYR, there was at least a period where ALL flying was canned if X-wind exceeded (I think it was) 10 knots. WE knew it was lunacy and lobbied for that to be removed (which it was). So you can see why MJ thinks as he does. The fact he's wrong is neither here nor there.

[clanger32]

And also, just out of interest how many accidents do you think happen where the crew have stated "ooh, these conditions are a bit ****, they're well out of my comfort zone. Still, let's carry on". My point about airmanship isn't that you got away with it, it's that with a Xwind approaching or exceeding twice max demonstrated you shouldn't even have tried. Your default position should have been "go elsewhere" not "Give it a whirl".

No-one ever thinks it's above their capability level until such time as lady luck leaves the room and - if you're lucky - you're left picking bits of twig out of your air intakes and maybe looking at a collapsed gear strut. If you're unlucky, you find yourself on a cloud somewhere looking down at a smoking hole thinking "....But I COULD handle it....."

[hollingworthp]

Rather goes to prove the point of Mad Jock et al.

Textbook example of pressonitis and inflated opinion of ones own limitations let alone that of the aircraft.

Forget 'authorisation' to land solo at Mobile, landing that far outside the limits was a terrible decision. There are numerous airfields around the valley close by. Bravado has no place in aviation be that solo SEP or commercial Jet Transport.

[shaun ryder]

Here's one for you Rex me old son.


ETPS Empire Test Pilots' School (http://www.qinetiq.com/home_etps.html)

[Reverserbucket]

hollingworthp said:
Textbook example of pressonitis and inflated opinion of ones own limitations let alone that of the aircraft.
Bit like candidates pressing on with progress tests when there are dust storms and Cb's all over the valley, eh hp.
The discussion about landing in gusting crosswinds (the Piper published figure of 17kts is a maximum demonstrated figure (by a manufacturers test pilot) not a limitation, although you might use it as a guide) is interesting when you consider that the extremely high incidence of landing incidents and accidents at Goodyear might suggest that student pilots there demonstrated particularly poor crosswind technique -indeed, the crosswind limitation of 10kts that clanger32 lobbied for that to be removed (which it was) was introduced in an urgent attempt to reduce the number of runway excursions by solo students. The sheer arrogance of the statements made here by some of the posters purporting to be former OAA students only serves to testify why integrated training and OAA itself has the somewhat stuck-up reputation that it does; if you feel that a crosswind limit determined by your instructor only applies to takeoff or is 'lunacy' proves the point - you were a student and should not have been in a position to make the call for yourself. How would a blatant disregard for SOP's be treated in your current operation? No tea, no biscuits with the fleet manager at best I'd like to think - unless of course you 'got away with it this time'. There was another runway runoff only as recently as this week I understand so clearly it's still happening.

Curious - didn't the last CFI at 'TK drive a golf? :)

[hollingworthp]

Bit like candidates pressing on with progress tests when there are dust storms and Cb's all over the valley, eh hp.

Phew, excellent example of why you shouldn't be posting after a few cheeky beers. I have no idea what you are referring to here and perhaps you do know me (as I post under my own name it would be hard to confuse me with someone else) but I had gin-clear days for my tests ta very much.

Also maybe you are unclear on the definition of 'purporting' - maybe you should check it out when the hangover clears.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Yep - he did drive a Golf!

[Artie Fufkin]

Another thread started by a budding young aviator discending into childish bickering about "my course was better than your course". A fine example to show the lad, who has shown us all how sensible one can be aged 14 by asking professionals in the industry he aspires to enter for help. And look how you repay him!

To the OP; as to whether OAA or indeed any school gives you better job prospects is a matter of some debate. When the question is asked you usually get a lot of heated responses, mainly from people trying to justify the descisions they took themselves. The matter has never been proven one way or the other - the argument rolls on.

From my own experiences of passing through flight training, (5 or 6 years ago), both the size of the "integrated premium", and the improved job prospects it provides was largely exagerated by both sides of the divide to suit their own argument. Indeed, I remember the day I joined my airline; we were all down the bar and an integrated student said that he wished he'd gone modular and saved money as there was an even mix of integrated / modular students sitting in the bar, starting the same job as him. The modular student next to him laughed and said that in the end he'd spent nearly as much it costs to do an integrated so would probably have preferred to go down the integrated route after all.

The above story displays well the type of person airlines are after.

As has been said above, keep a good ear out as to what suits you best at the time you want to start training. At the moment the cadet scheme with Thomas Cook and Flybe are by far the best options, if you can get in. No doubt in a few years time it will all be different.

Best of luck

[Reverserbucket]

Thanks Phil - I checked. My intention had been to suggest that posters on this thread claiming to have landed in 30kt + crosswinds whilst OAA students might not have been OAA students. I know of a number of irresponsible antics that students thought they 'got away with' such as formation flying and landing at unauthorized airports to pick up girlfriends and classmates whilst on solo cross-country exercises but you don't read about them here - I put landing in crosswinds outside of your endorsed limit in the same bracket and I am surprised that a post-flight discussion with the Sergeant Major did not occur. You still have that somewhat supercilious air - immediately interpreting what was intended to be a joke as some sort of an attack then dismissing my observations as the ramblings of someone who had just got home from the pub - as I was eight hours behind the U.K. I was in fact simply biding my time before the commencement of Happy Hour which, I notice....has now started - Cheers! :ok:

[Adios]

I don't recall RexBanner saying he landed with a 30 knot or more crosswind. I doubt it would be possible to pull that off without it getting reported to the FTO, if not by the tower, then by the crash crew that scrapes the wreckage off the sand on the leeward side of the runway! He does seem to claim that he might have exceeded the 17 knot crosswind limit, but his main point was that the forecast weather often changed and there were gusts in the 30-35 knot range. It's not ideal, but when you have to get down, you might have to have a few gos until you get it down between gusts.

I'm not sure why he takes it so personal that someone claims Oxford grads don't get enough crosswind landing experience though. It seems like a few years in on pprune he'd know better the futility of going after the windup merchants with large chips on their shoulders!

[clanger32]

Adios,
On re-reading, you are perhaps correct that there isn't a specific statement of "It was gusting 35k AND I landed in it", but the following quote implies strongly that whatever landing was made was well outside of limits. I for one am yet to see a "....300/05g35" TAF....


And I'll have you know that there were plenty of times it was gusting 30 knots straight across the runway at Goodyear when we arrived back from solo's and we didnt wither away and die, we dealt with it, and absolutely fine in my case and plenty of others


It's also worth noting that MY contribution here was effectively trying to say "don't feed the troll" - which IMHO Rex did beautifully.

Final point - but reversebucket - you seem to imply (and perhaps I too misread your post) that it was me alone that lobbied for removal of the X wind solo limitation. A) It certainly wasn't - it was all students (just to clear that up!) and B) I'm not quite sure what you'd have OAA do then? Have a ridiculously low X wind limit (on reflection, think it may have been 5kts!) so that no student ever gets to learn or practice X winds, or remove that limit and have a limit imposed by the instructor that reflects the students ability? I for one certainly think that X wind technique was not taught at all well in Oxford, but you DO only learn it by doing it.

[demomonkey]

Having sampled the delights of KGYR from APR-AUG I would say that there were very few days when there was a noticeable x-wind factor compared to GA flying I have done in the UK.

I also doubt that anyone could land a PA28 or PA34 in a x-wind of 35kts. It might have been gusting but not 35kts, if it were varying that much I would expect you to be off the side of the rwy in seconds.

[PRT2010]

Sorry guys but we've seemed to have gone a little off topic. The original question was:

Is Oxford Aviation Academy worth the cost?

To do the integrated ATPL(A) APP F/O Training is £66,000 and I know it's cheaper to go down the Modular Route but does going to Oxford Aviation Academy mean better job prospects?

The answer to the questions are: £66,000 is a lot of money and there are other cheaper options available to obtain your Frozen ATPL as previously mentioned in this thread. OAA is well known to the airlines, as is FTE, CTC, etc and speaking as a member of the recruitment team for a UK carrier, rightly or wrongly, an application from a cadet who qualified from OAA or any other full time course provider does place you above modular students.

OAA, FTE, CTC, etc have a level of ability to put you forward to an airline, however be aware that they will only do so if you are their "cream of the crop". At the end of the day the training organisations are running a business and every student they recommend will be one that has proven to be a reliable high achiever so as to greatly limit their risk of any failures once the cadet is with an airline.

As others have said keep watching the industry, keep studying hard and keep your options open.

Hope this helps.

[Adios]

Clanger,

Yup, very hard to tell what Rex meant by that, other than he meant to rebut the chap who said OAA students don't get crosswind experience. Are such blanket statements as the one under rebuttal dumb? Probably so, especially considering quite a few of those painted with that brush have PPLs they didn't get at Oxford. It seems like there's more than a dab of hyperbole on both sides of the debate. It would take a mangled blue and white pile of aluminum next to the runway at GYR to convince me anyone touched down with a 30+ knot crosswind, so I am more inclined to cut Rex slack than I am those who stereotype a school's entire student output, but I better leave it at that before this too becomes troll food. ;)

[Reverserbucket]

clanger32
No not you alone, I used your quote to show that it was a student driven decision to remove the restriction - a limitation which I agree was too low to be practical but imposed in an effort to mitigate the number of landing incidents that had occured over a short period of time (and I'm not suggesting that crosswind was the cause but it may have been part of the problem). Your observations concerning crosswind technique and the teaching of are accurate and the crosswind limit should indeed be determined by the instructor based on actual ability; demomonkey makes a good point - the predominant south-westerly flow at GYR can provide you with a healthy crosswind on final for 21 but not as consistently strong as you would get at somewhere like Kidlington, for example.
PRT2010
If you consider quality, safety and standard of training as a meaningful measurement of value for money then perhaps we're not so much off topic after all. A number of posters on this thread are former students but I think it's important to note that they were not all training at the same time - the earlier statement that the BA056 incident F/O was a graduate of Oxford Air Training School is the sort of thing sales and marketing delight in and might use to confirm the quality of the product to prospective customers (in point of fact I doubt they actually would) but, and no disrespect to current of former students of the company intended, this product has changed considerably over the past twenty years - the training package in almost every respect is not really comparable. Your comments and advice are sensible though and I think prospective and current students should note well your point regarding the "cream of the crop".
Adios
The ATCA hanger is next to the runway - perhaps you should have had a look in there :bored: .

[pitot_noob]

Just a little thought..
I remember an FI i flew with in GYR saying that his own personal limit was 15kts, he tried it in 16 and nearly didn't get away with it..

So as a ex-student, i was quite happy with my 13kt X-wind limit in the warrior, I knew my limits as a newbie low houred pilot and in all honestly, I got a load more cross wind practice when I got back home to Oxford!

The poster saying he landed when it was said to be gusting 30, but he didn't show poor judgement etc... you broke a rule, our SOPs. IMO, that IS poor judgement and i'd be surprised that the tower didn't have a little chat to ops about it.
It's people like you who are the ones who end up landing on the side of the runway.. nearly taking out one of your course mates who's holding short, and give OAA grads a crap name!

[Adios]

ReverserBucket,

My point is that Rex didn't put one in the ATCO hangar. I think that is pretty good evidence that he might have luckily timed his touchdown between those 30-35 knot gusts. Maybe even on a day that was between them! :uhoh:

[Jerry Lee]

Is the training loan with BBVA available only for UK and Spanish residents, or is available for all the EU residents (Italian in my case)?

Then, I've read this topic now and now I'm more confused than before because it seems that many post are not about the main question: does the APPFO give many chances more than a simple flight school to gain a first vital employment?

[Omlaaay]

Artie Fufkin

Another thread started by a budding young aviator discending into childish bickering about "my course was better than your course". A fine example to show the lad, who has shown us all how sensible one can be aged 14 by asking professionals in the industry he aspires to enter for help. And look how you repay him!

Thank you Artie, it's people like you who are the reason why I do enjoy PPRuNe although it can sometimes be ruined by other people! Although I'm not saying people can't voice their opinions, I'm intrested to see what everyone has to say.

I am actually a female but it's not the first time and certainly won't be the last! To be honest, I see myself as one of the lads anyway :ok:

Having seen what many people have been saying, I think going Modular will give me more opportunity and need more hard work as you're not as spoon-fed and I would benefit from this more as it will help build on my determination and show that I have done things more on my own.
But, I'm sure OAA opens up a world of opportunities although at the minute probably not so much. It's going to be at least 2 years until I attend somewhere like that, if I even do, so at least I have time to think. I'm not sure how they can justify their price tag though!

Thanks all for your personal experiences and opinions :ok: Please stop bickering though!! :sad:

[captainsuperstorm]

Having seen what many people have been saying, I think going Modular will give me more opportunity and need more hard work keep dreaming my lady!

modular or not, there are practically no job left in the aviation world. the few jobs available are in the USA but it' s a no go for EU citizen.

now what you do when you have spent a fortune and after 3 years, still no job, not even an interview. TESCO, waitress in a bar at 1000 euro a month?

you have to be a dreamer or an idiot to join aviation.

how many of your friends are still unemployed or have a lousy job?

5000 in UK, 5000 in france, 5000 in germany, 4000 in portugal, 5000 in spain, 5500 in italy, ... I believe there are over 50'000 unemployed pilots in EU and it continues to grow every month.

even if you are the lucky chap, you will get a job in the middle of africa at 500$/month. wooow, what a future!!!:ugh:if you think airlines will be interested by you afterwards...modular: 1500tt single **** in africa, 0h jet, 20 multi...

or worse , integrated:700tt, 500h line training on boeing, still no job and money gone due to these P2F prgs.

integrated: Lub
modular: no Lub:E