Airline Jock's flying Charter! [Archive]

chuks

2nd Jul 2010, 06:26

Well, many if not most of us!

I once noted with interest one of our semi-feral Germans deciding that he and he alone was the logical choice to take all those aircraft delivery trips back-and-forth between Germany and West Africa. None of the rest of us had his experience, since he was the one who assigned the trips, the greedy git!

To pop up here "troubling deaf heaven with your bootless cries" will not get you much sympathy since almost anyone in aviation for very long gets used to being crapped upon from a great height; it is just part of how the game is played. Of course one would rather have a highly-experienced four-striper as his aerial chauffeur instead of some newbie, that is just "market forces" at work, the same thing that drives one to hire an air taxi in the first place instead of hitching a ride in a bakkie almost for free.

Where does "passion" come into it anyway? I have a lot of passion for motorsport but those bastards at Ferrari just laugh at me when I ask for a spin in one of their Formula One cars. Life is unfair.

Sir Osis of the river

2nd Jul 2010, 09:42

Chuks,

I have to say that this is twenty years later and I am still with RSA on this one. They were doing it then and are still doing it now. Then they were taking away my livelyhood and now they are taking somebody else's.:=

They are mostly well paid and dont need the money. Besides, as someone pointed out, it is illegal according to their ops manuals.

If they feel so passionate about general aviation, go do a "Scully" and fly something that is not taking money and hours from youngsters who are only trying to progress. And if they really feel the need to put something back into aviation and/or teach the youngsters a thing or two, let them go do instruction. That is a worthwhile cause.

Safe flying,

Sir O

chuks

2nd Jul 2010, 10:44

Market forces still rule.

If someone really cares, don't waste time moaning to fellow sufferers here. Go drop a note to SAA with name, date and registration to ask why Captain X doesn't need to stick to the rules. Or find some gentleman of the press who needs to do a story about greedhead airline captains grabbing trips from deserving neophytes while flaunting the rules.

Just remember if you do that though, "What goes around, comes around!" If you end up on the wrong side of the "old boys' network" then you might as well forget getting very far ahead so that my advice is not to do these things. You might end up like ALPA's Timmy "Milkman" Martins, famous for all the wrong reasons, if you inspire a write-up about "Moaning Newbies Face Grim Future Selling Burgers!" instead of "Captain X Is A Greedy Swine!"

What this comes across as is "special pleading," sort of saying that even though it is a rough row to hoe getting a foothold in aviation, you should be treated with consideration by some four-striper. Well, why? Do you also expect to go to the head of the check-out line at the market because you are in a hurry? The best thing is to stop moaning and sort out a solution to the problem, either simple denunciation (when no one likes a rat) or else just sucking it up and laughing it off.

It is funny you should mention that but I am just in the middle of doing an on-line CFI renewal for my FAA CFI (Airplane, Instrument, Multi-engine, Gold Seal, Ground Instructor Instrument Advanced). Oh, and I also have a JAR FI that I haven't even used yet!

So I am sat on the fence; I would have no compunctions about grabbing a trip off some starving youngster if that were done fair and square yet I do try to put something back, yes.

Q4NVS

2nd Jul 2010, 10:58

Well as there is a lot of it going on (certainly in Cape Town), the answer is simple then............. RSA, get names and report them to their bosses as it is done contrary to company policy.

Just to clarify, SAA is not the only "South African" Airline so do not assume that I was referring to SAA.

Semantics says that even Kulula and 1Time are "South African" Airlines :p

beckers

2nd Jul 2010, 12:13

Firstly I would like to say that I am one of those who has and will fly outside of the Airline. In some and most of our cases we do have written permission to fly and train outside of our airline, as long as we stay within company flight and duty limitations.

There are always three sides to a good argument.

From my point of view and what I have seen there is a very limited amount of Airline pilot’s that actually do freelance work. Hence, feel the witch hunt seems more like a personal vendetta.

On the other side of the coin it is not possible to keep all the proficiency ratings current and fly without a lot of dedication. In other words the income versus effort is very limiting; hence I very much doubt they do it for the money.

It is a generalisation but many guys who fly freelance are dedicated to general aviation and do the work with passion, passing on information and knowledge. Usually there is a lot more background to each person, than pure financial greed. As QNVS said you may learn a lot from them.

Professionalism is NOT resorting to ‘gorilla tactics’ to destroy some-one else’ input in General Aviation, but rather improving your own.

This industry is small, and usually the same guys who are involved in GA are the ones the help advance the careers of the people they meet. But it can work in reverse.

So in summary, concentrate on your own career and not other peoples. I am sure they are not stealing that much bread from your table. You may well find yourself one day wanting to put/get back to GA.

126.9

2nd Jul 2010, 12:32

One post, and it's pathetic. On the bright side, it can only get better.

Airline pilots have been doing that forever, the world over. Get used to it.

cavortingcheetah

2nd Jul 2010, 16:22

I will say at the beginning that I find myself entirely in agreement with Sir O on these matters.
The subject has been raised on Pprune before. The specific context of complaint which I can remember was instruction and in particular part time instruction.
However, it might be worth reflecting that perhaps the general aviation accident statistics are as low as they are in South Africa precisely because grizzled old dogs are poaching the flying fun from the mouths of the youthful and inexperienced.
I fear to say that the situation is historically entirely normal and short of breaking a few knee caps in the car park one dark winter morning, will remain so.
Soldiers get shot at in the dawn attack, the officers breakfast on bread and brandy. No doubt some of the officers today are as undeserving as their counter parts in the past.

Sir Osis of the river

2nd Jul 2010, 18:55

Cavorts welcome back,

Bekkers, let me say at the outset that I have very little respect for the guys doing this. The ones I came across in the pubs in Sua Pan, Jwaneng, Beira, Lubumbashi, etc, might have had a passion for aviation. But mostly were only too glad to brag openly about how much they were earning "tax-free", Money under the table" for this charter and that they did NOT record the hours in their logbook.

I never ratted a guy out, but now think differently. Next time I have a name, I will let it slip. Most of the culprits in those days were guys who had never had to go the charter route and try survive on freelance work. They came from the SAAF or very wealthy families, or had a Dad on the interview panel. But they honestly had no clue what it was like trying to build hours and support a family.

Sorry guys and Girls, but I still don't buy it.

Sir O

Shrike200

2nd Jul 2010, 19:35

Well, clearly there's still some efficiency to be had if these guys have hours to spare in terms of FDP/max hours....Speaking for myself, I reckon I'm being squeezed for most of the hours of the day (and night) - not too much 'extracurricular' flying being done, we're all too knackered! Thats IF we had legal hours to spare...this isn't at SAA of course.

But hey, it's a tough old world.....

cavortingcheetah

2nd Jul 2010, 19:46

Thank you Sir O...

I just sort of wondered, in the most idle of fashions, whether RSA might be a troll or even a rogue gorilla?

JTrain

2nd Jul 2010, 23:43

Remember that CV580 that crashed in Eastern DRC in April of '06.

One of the pilots was an SA native who flew 747s (not for SAA).

Perils of the profession.

Cardinal Puff

3rd Jul 2010, 04:49

Difference is he wasn't taking time off from the 747 to fly the CV580. The company operating the 747 had closed due to their aircraft being wrecked in Nigeria. He began flying the CV580 after that to earn a living, just like anyone else.

CJ750

4th Jul 2010, 08:27

Guys i must agree this is going on and it always will. We are not going to stop them. They have their special reasons for doing charter. Some say to keep up ratings..........dont they do that in SAA or whatever South African Airline they fly for. Some say to put back something in general aviation.....maybe. what happens to the money they earn for their salary if they are that passionate about putting something back. They receive training and a damn good salary from the airline they fly for.

As far as putting something back i agree with guys doing instruction and even better being DE's . That is where you learn NOT being on a charter with an airline pilot sitting chewing your ear off about how they do it in the airline and how good their training is when you have to show them how to use the FMS and various other things in the plane because they have not flown it for 6 months. GA flying is very different to airline flying because we do everything from clearances to paying landing fees etc . We dont just sit in the cockpit and wait for the load sheet to sign.

Dont see any airline pilots volunteering to take leave and go and fly contracts in Afghanistan or someother tough place to live in do we now...........wonder why:confused:

I am against this practice and agree with Sir O. I dont have to worry about the wheel that turns because i am not in an airline. My question is how do the airline guys fit in charter work if they fly so much in the airline and how do they adjust their FDP. They have to apply 2 sets of rules for FDP. their airlines rules and the charter companies rules. I blame the charter queens for some of this but hey the lads get away with it.

As for cape town airline pilots just look at the searay planes in cape town flown by professional saa pilots for many years, openly flaunting their ability to fly those planes. They had the owners fork out sim courses for about 8 pilots (SAA) (I speak under correction about the number of pilots) and on top of that they had their normal work at SAA. Fortunately tht has stopped now. Wonder what dassie and the boys are doing now.........................

Now BECKERS where is the justice in that. Please tell me why GA must pay for an airline pilot to fly.

This will never change because airline management are not concerned about anything than their financial side as long as the pilots fly and CAA is happy GA must suffer and new guys on the block just sit and wait . Been there done that and see it still happening.

MAYBE AIRLINE PILOTS ARE NOT HAPPY BEING AT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES IN THEIR SPARE TIME AND HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO

four engine jock

4th Jul 2010, 09:02

This kind of thing happens all over the world.
I know a few guys that fly for the big boys in the states that fly Biz Jets around on there free time.
The question here is it wrong? Well I don’t know and will not answer that one.
The small airlines do indeed like the experience that guys have.

beckers

4th Jul 2010, 11:41

Unfortunately I am the only one here to defend the intentions of a few.

I have given it some thought and the few examples of the other guys, I thought of, who do it simply for financial gain. Sadly each one works for the best paying airline. Also it is only these guys that have enough time off to make it regular. And these same guys don't help others move forward. So yes there is a point.

Personally I do very little charter flying and mostly instruction, but it is not the 30-40hrs of ground school that people see, only the 1 hour of flying.

So perhaps confront the individual personally, rather than an entire industry. It's not all rotten.

126.9

4th Jul 2010, 13:54

It's a perfectly acceptable practice. Signing up to fly for an airline never did (and never will) deny a man his right to fly what, why, where, when, who, and how he likes. If you don't like it, take up knitting.

Q4NVS

4th Jul 2010, 15:02

Signing up to fly for an airline never did (and never will) deny a man his right to fly what, why, where, when, who, and how he likes. If you don't like it, take up knitting.

I guess it's like saying that when you become a Springbok (No Pun intended), you may no longer play for your Provincial Franchise...because now you prevent the Provincial Players from gaining the necessary experience and exposure "they" need to become Springboks :\

It's a tough old World out there...

:zzz:

Sir Osis of the river

4th Jul 2010, 16:43

126.9:

It is NOT an acceptable practice.:= Obviously you were never a struggling newbie?? I can see how if you had everything handed to you on a silver spoon, you might find no moral wrong in the practice, but please remember, not everyone had, or has the same start you appear to have. (Plain or Pearl??)

Q4nvs: The REAL Springboks contract does not prohibit, unlike the other ones, working elsewhere. (Apples with apples...)

cavortingcheetah

4th Jul 2010, 16:51

Actually it's called 'moonlighting' and in the school of hard knocks, that's exactly what you used to get for poaching another man's livelihood when your own was quite secure.

(Signing up to fly for an airline never did (and never will) deny a man his right to fly what, why, where, when, who, and how he likes. If you don't like it, take up knitting.)

And might the same philosophy sir, be applied to one's wife?

oompilot

4th Jul 2010, 19:14

Perhaps some ‘repetitive route flying’ pilots haven’t kept up with general aviation in SA . There seems to be a belief that they ‘come back’ to fly the smaller aircraft and help the 'learners' to become better pilots.
These days general aviation includes smaller ‘ airline type’ airplanes such as BAE 146’s, 737’s, F28’s ATR72’s EMB120’s, the list goes on. The crew for these aircraft get the same training and frequency of training as any airline, it’s a legal requirement to do so. Long story short, there are plenty well trained pilots around the GA airports who can share knowledge with the lower time pilots.
What we should be asking ourselves is how the hell did some of you guys get into the airlines in the first place if the standards are so high there. They clearly aren’t! I thought after nearly killing themselves in the Historic Dak a few years back, whilst giving back to GA I presume, you airline pilots would have realized that perhaps the real flying should be left to the GA aviators. Learn to taxi your aircraft before teaching others how to fly theirs. Get the book 'Airbus Taxiing 101 at Cape Town' it may help.

Q4NVS

4th Jul 2010, 20:24

Q4nvs: The REAL Springboks contract does not prohibit, unlike the other ones, working elsewhere. (Apples with apples...)

Although ours does, with some research you might find that not all Airlines actually prohibit this.

:zzz:

126.9

5th Jul 2010, 07:11

Sir Osis

Grew up in Saunders House Boys' Home in Durban. Saved my (so called) danger pay for two years and worked another five years as a miner at Harmony Gold Mine to pay for my flying. Freelanced outa Lanseria in the eighties and early nineties. My logbook reflects as many as three months between flights in the hard days. Competed with many SAA, Comair, and other more experienced freelancers. I'm still mates with most of them. Marie Dry gave me my first full-time job at Inter Air after I'd walked the airport for more than three years. Later came the airlines.

I don't begrudge anyone the right to work. But it is a free market out there. Get used to it.

---

carvortingcheetah and coward

Read your PM pal. Your cowardly comment about my wife is coming back to kick you in the a55!

cavortingcheetah

5th Jul 2010, 07:32

126.9

Since you seem to have taken grave offence at nothing more than my extension of your own philosophy, I have altered my original post to remove any connotation from which I hope you could reasonably imply a personal connection.
I sincerely trust that this will mollify your outraged outburst which I found surprising considering the arrogant and self centered nature of your previous words directed towards those less fortunate than yourself. I do not normally pay much attention to threatening e mails or private messages however, in the interests of the prevention of aviation terrorism, I have made a note of your name, which you so kindly provided. I think that all threats to aviation personnel should be taken seriously and acted upon, don't you?

126.9

5th Jul 2010, 08:04

You're quite right they should be taken seriously and acted upon. And don't you forget it. 1500 posts leaves a trail better than a birth certificate. Posts regarding recent illnesses ... PPRuNe outages in Germany ... and that pseudonym ... (cuts it down already) ... I read on ...!

As for the attempt to misconstrue your libelous statement as implication of connotation: the original content was false, malicious, and defamatory. Feel free to have your attorneys contact me. I'll provide a copy of the original page and my address and telephone numbers via PM upon your request.

flux

5th Jul 2010, 08:30

What a Load of crap Oompilot! General aviation should be pretty routine flying too! Heard of SOP's? And Jtrain, the guy who scribbled the CV580 was washed from the airline.

cavortingcheetah

5th Jul 2010, 15:31

126.9

I seem to have provoked you, unwittingly, into a major sense of humour failure. Since you are apparently intent upon a litigious course of action I'll say little further at this stage other than to point out that no comment was made about your's or any one else's wife. Whether a rhetorical question in the context can be defamatory or libelous in law probably lies outside the scope of this thread. I rather suspect though it is your words and your threats, both in public and in private, that have been malicious. However, in the interests of harmony and to assuage your fury, I offer you my apology if my question has been taken out of its intended philosophical context and caused offense.

oompilot

5th Jul 2010, 16:13

Ironic that this thread was about dodgy moonlighting airline pilots and now they are irate and worried about their wives fidelity. This is simply solved, stop moonlighting. This seems to be a sore point with you guys so perhaps that is reason enough to stay at home between trips.:E

Sir Osis of the river

5th Jul 2010, 17:21

Seen as 126.9 seems so keen to have his lawers get involved, maybe we could ask them about the legality of moonlighting? (Just not sure if any other members of his family were also moonlighting?)

Seriously boys, this is a rumour forum. If you want to post anonymously, expect a few swipes at your personality.

If you want to moonlight and take work away from someone else, and BOAST about it, expect to get shot down in flames......

Safe flying,
Sir O

Mobotu

5th Jul 2010, 22:53

For Charter flights as mentioned in the original post.......
I have a interesting proposition - (have used it myself - Sorry RSA)
Have your company not only give you permission to perform the flight making them take into account your flight and duty time requirements - but have them bill the company requesting the flight with any money going back into your company to ensure you are in fact doing the flight due to your "Passion for Aviation":rolleyes:

I remember when a "Moonlighter" I know missed his flight and delayed his airlines departure due to a technical problem with his "Moonbuggy":{

cavortingcheetah

6th Jul 2010, 06:16

I wonder, in the usual idle sort of way, what has happened to the original poster whom I at one stage wondered was a troll? Perhaps he would care to enter the debate he started as it rages to and fro?

CJ750

6th Jul 2010, 11:30

This is a thread about South African Airline Pilots doing charter.

Does 126.9 not live in Europe.

What would all thee airline pilots say about us GA guys walking in and asking to fly in their airlines. There are some who used to fly in the airlines before they saw the light. MMMMMMMMMM

They are the first to scream about someone getting pushed in front of them on the Seniority List.

I will certainly do my best and have been trying for years to stop this practice but SOME and not all Arline guys think they are gods gift to aviation. I repeat this view only stands for those airline pilots that do charter and not for those that do instruction and are DE's.

Fly Safe guys and gals:ok:

Newforest2

6th Jul 2010, 14:28

Cavort....

Maybe the O.P. is too busy moonlighting to have time to reply? :rolleyes:

DaFly

6th Jul 2010, 16:23

Taking the risk of being pulled to pieces, but why do the GA guys feel, that "airline pilots" are not allowed to fly GA charters? Aren't they 'simply' pilots too?
Now, as to the aspect of an airline pilot earning a great salary and hence shouldn't be flying charters:
Is there a certain income limit amongst the SA pilot community, after which it is downright obscene to continue taking on work? Aren't there pilots employed by GA charter companies, also doing freelance work on the side, if they can?
What about those freelance pilots, that are flying regularly for rather good rates, is it ok for them to not share their flights with guys, that are not being called out that much?
How about pilots doing contract work? They quite often earn more than some of the airliners and still do freelance work in their time off at home. Is that ok? I know for a fact, that some A340 Captains earn less, than what contract pilots flying jets do.
Is there some kind of fine line, that a pilot crosses over, once employed by an airline?
I have come across a number of GA charter pilots who think the sun shines out of their bottom holes, being the divine's gift to aviation.
I know how it feels, if one sits at home and just waits for the telephone to ring. But if freelance pilots sit around, not flying enough, isn't that an indication of there being too many freelancers? What about people, who have had a no-fly job and now pour into the rather saturated market. Are they frowned upon?
What about the more experienced GA pilots, those flying 1900 or jets. Is it ok for them to do a flight on a piston single or light twin? Don't they take work away from the lesser experienced, lesser qualified pilots, who need the hours more and the money too?
Sure, many airline employment contracts state, that you are not allowed to take on work outside that specific company. Or they state, you are only allowed to fly 2 different types. But isn't that an issue between the airline and that pilot? Do you guys really feel called upon to play policemen? Do you open a case against everyone who overtakes you while you stick to the speed limit? Or jumps a red robot you stop at?
I think some people should rather ask themself, why they not get enough work. Why is it, that the charter queens call the "airline pilots" instead of you, who has been sitting around. Those freelancers I have met, who were not doing well, had contributed to their misery. Either by never being available over weekends, or by having a bad attitude towards the pax (I'm a pilot, not a porter) or even by rocking up noticeably hung over. Please take that into consideration too.

capster

10th Jul 2010, 07:38

You seem like a balanced fellow with a chip on both shoulders, hiding in anonymity and naming names on a public forum.

"I repeat this view only stands for those airline pilots that do charter and not for those that do instruction and are DE's. "

....now that really makes sense, is an airline guy instructing or doing DE work not taking work away from his GA bretheren? Are you the judge as to who can fly what and when?

Worry about your own life and dont get too bitter if the sun shines on somebody else.

cavortingcheetah

10th Jul 2010, 12:08

I don't see any names lying splattered around the place, or have I once again missed something important?
The South African aviation hierarchy appears to be very angst ridden place. There seems to be a tendency toward aggression and an untoward attachment to the jugulars of others. This can only stem from a huge insecurity complex which I am sure can be traced back to the South African school system. Most pilots seem to spend years in Nursery School. Perhaps it's debatable whether any ever climb out of that particular gooey sand pit. After extended Kindergarten there's the middle range encompassing Grades 7 to 9 when pilots are proficient enough at flying solo to enable them to be sent on single crew charters but not yet trained enough to fly with another human being. After that, moving slowly up the scale, the airman arrives at Grades 10 and 11 when the aspiring graduate flies dual in an environment, usually two crew or dual, which can be anything from appallingly grueling to sublime. This is followed by Grade 12, which in South Africa implies Spoories. After that you become a graduate and no one can teach you anything anyway! However the trick in all of this is that once you reach such a level, having fought your way ever upwards, you can teach just about anyone on the rungs below you a few things, or at the least, remind them of that which they might have forgotten or not remembered that they had ever learned!
It's not really very likely that a GA pilot, whatever his experience, will have had the same exhaustive training both in breadth and technique as would have had his airline counterpart, measure for measure? So an airline pilot undertaking DE work under CAA authorisation in SA is hardly likely to be depriving a GA pilot of the same opportunity. The GA pilot would be unlikely to have been able to accumulate the experience and training to enable him to operate as a testing officer across anything like as broad a spectrum as would the Matriculant mentioned right at the beginning of this small paragraph of enlightenment.
As for Brethren of the Air, there is, most unhappily, probably no such being any more. This is a military concept which had its infancy in WWI and became honed to perfection in WWII when the techniques of fighter formation combat techniques were developed. Having said all that, I await the bandits from behind the sun but no rear gunners please!

olirindis

10th Jul 2010, 16:01

Maybe the unhappy sources of this posting should approach the charter operators for their opinion on this matter. I fly for one of the majors in RSA and fly charter on the turboprops. In most of the cases when approached to fly its because the client, usually the mining houses have minimum experience requirements for the crew. Crew with the required experience are usually not full time staff for obvious reasons. I enjoy the flying thoroughly. I like sharing experience as well as the dynamic nature of charter. The operators are an integral part of this sort of debate and as such should be asked for their opinion, the response of which I'm sure will be quite simple....they need to get the job done!

Best regards.

cavortingcheetah

10th Jul 2010, 16:25

That's a pretty fair response although it does not address the main thrust of the original post as I interpreted it.
This is from thread starter RSA's first post.
'There are a number of South African employed airline pilots doing freelance charter in their off time'
I remark again that RSA has cunningly never made a second post.
I think his point here is that South African pilots who work for airlines, and perhaps in particular and by extension South African Airways, should simply not make themselves available for charter work.
While agreeing with the sentiments, such wishful thinking has, in practical terms, to remain just that. One previous correspondent demonstrated his attitude of consideration to those less fortunate than himself by inquiring if there were a lower mortal on the food chain available to do the job before accepting a charter. It goes back to the adage of always remembering that at some stage, you too were an F/O?

DaFly

11th Jul 2010, 06:41

It goes back to the adage of always remembering that at some stage, you too were an F/O?...who got served everything on a silver plate, or who worked himself / herself up the ladder despite steep competition?

cavortingcheetah

11th Jul 2010, 06:55

How you got there should not affect how you behave when you get there unless perhaps you should not have got there in the first place.

DaFly

11th Jul 2010, 08:39

c-cheetah, that is not my point. This thread makes it almost sound, as if the majority of interesting and financially juicy ga charters are being taken up by 'airline-pilots'.
First of all, I don't see much of a difference between pilots flying for an airline and those flying in a charter environment. Both types are supposedly professional and well trained pilots.
Secondly, I think the market is a very competitive one and it is very easy to moan about certain pilots, taking work away from others. I believe, it is up to every pilot himself, to get in the good books of the charter queens. I have been freelancing for a long time. If I felt, others are getting more flights, than I, a bunch of flowers, box of chocolates or goodies like that had me back on top of the list rather quickly.
In a competitive market like this, it is not only about having the necessary qualifications. There are a few hundred others with at least the same qualifications. It is about networking, advertising yourself.
The slightest glitch can have you tumble down the priority list, whether it is being late, snotty with a pax or simply not being available enough.
I would think, that the majority of pilots should work on themself, before they claim others are 'taking work away'. Aviation is not a big charity, at least not in times like these. Why hasn't John Travolta asked any of us to fly with him yet?

Cheetah, do you feel and do most of the other more experienced pilots feel, they have been lifted into the seat, they are occupying now, by the kindness of their fellow pilots, or do you guys feel, you have been working for it?

Cardinal Puff

11th Jul 2010, 12:43

The shotgun approach to punctuation - Gotta love it....:ok::}

cavortingcheetah

11th Jul 2010, 13:36

DaFly

I have to say that I found it extremely tough going on the path up to where I am now. It is not easy to have had a father who worked as a simulator technician for one of the larger international US based training companies. Life was full of interesting birthday presents in those days usually equated with the size of the birthday boy. Age five could find one flying a Lear jet, age ten a B737, twelve a B 727, fourteen a B 707, 744 and so on up the aircraft size scale, commensurate with one's own height progression. Suffice to say that by the time the twentieth birthday rolled around one had accumulated a rather significant amount of jet simulator time. The exams were not difficult. Most of the stuff was pretty basic for someone who had grown up with it all. The piston flying training for the test and the check itself were incredibly boring. Everything seemed in slow motion. It was in fact only when I got my first job, with 200 hours in the logbook but many more in the back pages, that I realised that I owed nothing to pilots. My father had finessed the job for me through one of his contacts on the board of the airline he rather liked the look of. This chap was in the habit of bringing his girl friends into the simulators and impressing them with his cockpit drills and flying abilities during the dog watch hours or when the machine was officially on maintenance. So that is how I got where I am today. Lots of hard work, graft, a little luck, some favors to call in and a box of chocolates here and there to the right girl to start the right tape recorder at just the precise moment of CEO simulator evacuation.
I hope that satisfactorily answers your question and may I wish you a very pleasant day on the way down the gantry.

RSA

18th Jul 2010, 17:28

The following from SELCAL (Newsletter of the Air Line Pilot's Association of South Africa)

Time and again pilots have been called upon to stand together for the collective benefit of the group. This usually requires of us to be unselfish.We are now faced with a situation that again calls for such unselfish behaviour.

ALPA-SA is aware of the plight of many pilots who are desperate for work. At the same time there are pilots earning good salaries from permanent employment, who are flying in their spare time. This is not in the interest of our profession, nor is it fair!

While we understand that some of our members need to give instruction in order to retain their ratings- or because they are the only people qualified on a particular type, we request that you restrict this to a minimum.

Please remember that by doing charter and corporate flying while in the employ of an airline, you are keeping another person out of a job!

ALPA-SA appeals to each pilot out there to examine his or her conscience and to abstain from this practice. We have the support of the Branch Committees on this issue and we want our members to know the we are here to serve the interests of ALL our members, without favouring any one specific group.

We call on all members now to rise above self-interest and to do what is right!:D

cavortingcheetah

18th Jul 2010, 18:46

Probably selective calling was never more appropriate. One can but wish the sentiment well.

Sir Osis of the river

19th Jul 2010, 03:46

So there we have it. :ok:

I hope that clarifies the matter for Chuks, Beckers, 126.9 and the rest of the gang.

Enjoy your days off, At HOME.

Sir O

126.9

20th Jul 2010, 15:03

Sorry chaps. I don't have time to draft a respectable response. I'm too busy flying charter on my days off. I have to be back at work on Monday and I've got three freelance trips booked before then. :}

DaFly

20th Jul 2010, 19:12

@ 126.9: :ok:

Omni Range Zero

20th Jul 2010, 19:51

RSA, I'll start of(f) by asking nicely....if I'm employed by the South African Air Force...? :confused:

Wiele

21st Jul 2010, 07:39

MY Dearest RSA and "Sir O"

I am no Rich-man's child, nor am I unprofessional! I got my ATP through hard work and payed for every hour of my flight training on my own. I sat in African $%#*holes for months at a time while my wife and kids had to manage on their own and yes, today I am flying for SAA.

If anybody approach me for a charterflight I will do the flight provided that I am legal in terms of FDP. I have got further "bad" news for you. When I retire one day from SAA, I will most certainly continue flying.

Dont blame other people for your inability or lack of interest in joining a local airline.

To all the young guys out there: Work hard an you will be rewarded. Dont blame or threat others that have walked the walk.

Till next time! Be Safe!:rolleyes:

nugpot

21st Jul 2010, 08:11

I am always amazed at the unadulterated arrogance of pilots. What in heaven's name gives you the right to tell any other pilot what to do with his free time?

Surely it is the prerogative of the owner/operator to use who he wants to fly his aircraft. Most airlines let their pilots fly outside as long as certain rules are followed. Even Q4NVS's employer does that, although they don't really have a lot of FDP to play with.

If you are good at what you do, satisfy the insurance requirements and make the operator happy, you will get the job. If an airline pilot regularly gets jobs that you thought you should get, you might have to start with a little introspection. I bet that an SAA "moonlighter" does not get charter jobs because he is prepared to bend the rules, so it must be something else.

For the record, I don't like flying enough to do any more than my airline pays me for. The last time I flew anything else was when the Harvard Club still did sky-typing in CPT.

cavortingcheetah

21st Jul 2010, 09:13

This whole argument is hardly a new one and just as there is really not a problem so there is no solution.
But an idea loometh. It seems that there are a lot of airline pilots in SA flying charters and a lot of non airline pilots who think that they should be doing so. So why don't the airline pilots, through ALPA, get together and start an 'Adopt an Amateur Aviator'? Excuse the use of the word 'amateur' but AAA fits so well together doesn't it?
The idea would be that each experienced airline pilot would take one guy from the general pool under his wing and market himself as a two crew operation. The Queens would soon have to get used to this, the passengers would be happier at having two men up front and the work load on the experienced pilot would be reduced because at the least the other pilot could operate the radios.
The logging of flight time by the secondary pilot would be a question of licensing of course but such time would probably in any event count towards some rating or another.
In addition to this, for his services as introducer and line trainer the airline pilot could charge the other a finder's fee for the day's flying. Everyone gains either experience or money and log books are fattened.

f2000

21st Jul 2010, 09:14

I have not read all the posts on this subject but this is my 2 cents worth. Most pilots love to fly and all pilots love money so it stands to reason that more flying and money will be a motivating factor. I don't blame the Airline guys at all. There may be a moral aspect but we all live in the real world!!
The problem is the operators of the aircraft who use the airline pilots , they get free sim training and currency checks, experience etc (courtesy of SAA/Comair et al) They are the guys inhibiting the recruitment of full time or professional freelancers.

I.R.PIRATE

21st Jul 2010, 10:07

PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, I AM NOT SHOUTING, BUT MERELY USING THEM IN TERMS OF EXTREME RESPECT AND HUMILITY TOWARD MY AIRLINE BRETHREN.

(YEARS AGO MY PTI USED TO SAY HE HOPED I WAS SPEAKING TO HIM IN CAPITAL LETTERS BECAUSE COMPARED TO ME HE WAS VERY IMPORTANT...SO>>.)

WHILE SOME ARE AMAZED BY OTHERS TRYING HARD TO PROTECT THE SCRAPS OF FREELANCE CHARTER THAT ARE LEFT, I AM AMAZED BY THE ASSUMPTION PROFFERED BY THE SKY-GODS ON HERE THAT EVERYONE ACTUALLY WANTS TO BE IN THE AIRLINES, AND IF YOU ARE NOT, THEN SOMEHOW YOU HAVE NOT YET MATURED AS A PILOT. BAH HUMBUG.

I KNOW OF MANY PILOTS THAT HAVE NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER IN JOINING THE AIRLINES AND WOULD MUCH RATHER FLY TO A VARIETY OF DESTINATIONS, IN DIFFERENT TYPES, AND MAKE THEIR LIVING AS FREELANCE PILOTS. THE MERE FACT THAT SO MANY AIRLINE PILOTS ARE FLYING CHARTER IS A INDICTMENT OF JUST HOW SATISFYING AIRLINE FLYING REALLY IS....

I AM THE LAST ONE TO EXPECT LIFE TO BE FAIR AND TO EXPECT A LIVE AND LET LIVE ATTITUDE TO PREVAIL IN SOUTH AFRICAN AVIATION, SO YES, I DONT BELIEVE ANYTHING WILL CHANGE, PURELY BECAUSE OF THE UNSATISFYING NATURE OF AIRLINE FLYING - A NUMBER OF AIRLINE PILOTS WILL ALWAYS WANT TO FLY CHARTER ON THE SIDE TO STOP THEM FROM DYING OF BOREDOM -

BUT TO GET YOUR NOSE TWISTED OUT OF SHAPE AND YOUR KNICKERS IN A KNOT BECAUSE FREELANCE PILOTS WHO ARE BATTLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION, IS THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.

BUT THEN AGAIN, IS THAT ANYTHING NEW??

PS: thanks for taking time out of your busy schedules to teach us. Without you we would all be...um...richer I guess:}

nugpot

21st Jul 2010, 12:03

BUT TO GET YOUR NOSE TWISTED OUT OF SHAPE AND YOUR KNICKERS IN A KNOT BECAUSE FREELANCE PILOTS WHO ARE BATTLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION, IS THE EPITOME OF ARROGANCE.

Nope mate, to expect others to change their lives to suit yours, is arrogant.

gb346

21st Jul 2010, 15:19

We all like flying and we all like money.

Charter provides both and when it is on offer, the first person who gets a bite at the cherry is going to take it - be it the Airline pilot, contract pilot on his month break, freelancing corporate pilot or GA pilot.

This is life and human nature so instead of slagging off those who do take the cherry, bide your time and the cherry will be yours one day.

PS: I never do freelance work as I am personally not interested, not because I fear stealing breadcrumbs from others.

Sir Osis of the river

21st Jul 2010, 22:17

So, none of you Airline guys flying charter have morals. Your beloved Union asks of you to respect others, but hey, leave that to other guys. I bet the moment you drop yourself in it, you will go running to the Union, claiming assistance?? Hippocrits (Probably doesn't apply to 126'9 as he does not fly in SA anyway.)

Wiele, having also done the darkest Africa thing for many years, I am sure we crossed paths. Shouldn't we leave the charters to the newbies so that they don't have to go away for months at a time to earn a living while their families sit at home alone?

Anyway, I am only trying to stick-up for the younger pilots. It does not affect me anymore, but still ticks me off.

Safe flying,

Sir O

mattman

22nd Jul 2010, 06:28

Mr.Pirate looong time mate any action there in the elbowroom:}

I am no airline boy don't want to be, never will be, and i have the utmost respect for the boys moving the world. But have come across these boys running around stealing our breadcrumbs as it was so put.

Never fear O low life ones, work your tosh off, and when the thieving occurs grit your teeth, get yourself into a position, that one day when it happens, and trust me it has happened, when the airline boy/ girl comes groveling at your door for work, you can turn around and hire the low life charter slug who was struggling for a break.
Was the best day of my life as this particular sole, stole work off me by punting his life story as a airline pilot, not because I had more time in type and flown the aircraft way longer and further than he ever did.

I still respect you guys though, it must be really hard to fly to Cape town three times a week.

Wow never knew how resentful I really felt, thanks guys I feel so much better

oompilot

22nd Jul 2010, 07:55

So long as no laws are being broken this practice will never stop. If any pilot doesn’t conform to the required regulations then report it to CAA. If you wish to remain anonymous then use the CAHRS initiative created for you by CAA and publish the outcomes here, minus names of course.
I agree that if no law is broken then let any pilot fly. Some things to remember,

“(3) The provisions of this subpart shall apply in respect of full-time and part-time employed flight crew members.”

a flight deck crew member completes the operator’s type conversion
course before commencing unsupervised operational flying –
(i) when changing to an aeroplane for which a new type or class
rating is required; or
(ii) when employed by such operator.

5) When a flight crew member has not previously completed the opera-
tors’ type conversion course, such operator shall ensure that, in additional to
subregulation (4), the flight crew members undergoes general first aid training
and, if applicable, ditching procedures training using the appropriate equipment
in water.

The operator of a small commercial air transport aeroplane to be oper-
ated by a single pilot in terms of Regulations 135.02.6 shall ensure that the
additional crew training is provided, as prescribed in Document SA-CATS-
OPS 135.

each flight deck crew member undergoes recurrent training and
checking and that all such training and checking is relevant to the type
or variant of aeroplane on which the flight deck crew member is li-
censed to operate;

when multi-crew operations are contemplated, each flight deck crew
member undergoes operator proficiency checks every six calendar
months as part of a normal flight deck crew complement.

Upon successful completion of the operator proficiency check referred
to in subregulation (1)(e), the operator shall issue a certificate of competency to
the flight deck crew member concerned, which certificate shall be valid for a
period of six calendar months calculated from the last day of the calendar month
in which such certificate is issued.

The operator shall ensure that, in the case of an operational check, each
flight deck crew member undergoes the operational check on the aeroplane to
demonstrate his or her competence in carrying out normal operations specified
in the operations manual referred to in Regulation 135.04.2.

If these laws are broken then report the pilot and operator to CAA via the CAHRS system, stop moaning, do something.

Van Der

22nd Jul 2010, 11:11

I’ve always had a suspicion that pilots (in general, there have been some exceptions that I have witnessed) did not work hard enough, and now a whole thread highlighting that…;)

beckers

22nd Jul 2010, 12:15

Reading through the entire thread one would get the impression that every airline pilot flies charter. Besides I personally know of less than five that operate in and around Lanseria (IF) they get a chance.

Secondly as the last post refers (and F2000) each type we operate we require a proficiency check. That cost is not borne by our respective airlines. As I mentioned in a previous post, it takes a lot of effort to remain current and proficient (in the legal sense).

Further more most operator's will use their dedicated crew and "full time freelance crew" long before they use an Airline Pilot. The airline crew are simply not available as much. We only get called for flights occasionally. Usually when I get phoned, the call ends with a "do you know any body else who may be rated?". The airline pilot's are not cheaper, they are often more fickle and harder to get on a night stop - so why are they being called? Perhaps it is because they are a last resort.

When I was a charter pilot I flew with many airline pilot's. I enjoyed those experiences and in fact both my subsequent airline jobs were helped on by those very guys. I understand some of you are not aspiring to airlines but there are things to be learned from those individuals, who come from a different operating environment than yourself.

So if you are really feeling hard done by, cheated by a minority, and looking for someone else to blame for your woes:ugh: - head off to your nearest township and see how a Xenophobic rampage is really carried out:=!

DaFly

22nd Jul 2010, 14:23

If these laws are broken then report the pilot and operator to CAA via the CAHRS system, stop moaning, do something.

@ oompilot:

You make it sound, as if the majority of "airline pilots" cuts corners when it comes to flying GA charters, which of course wouldn't be right, I agree.
But unfortunately I do know a lot of GA long term freelance pilots doesn't stick to all of those rules. So, whom exactly are you trying to catch out? Shall we then start reporting all those GA pilots, who dare flying around without having done the necessary F/A course?
I guess in the end that might just lead to more GA flights being done by the so called airline pilots, because a lot of the GA pilots might just be grounded, busy trying to wait list them self for the next available F/A course...
Good luck policing then!

oompilot

22nd Jul 2010, 16:16

No Dafly it would lead to companies employing pilots full time as they will want to protect there 'investment' in what is now a legal GA pilot. In other words it will create more GA jobs and solve many problems.

Q4NVS

23rd Jul 2010, 07:35

If memory serves me correctly there was an outfit in Cape Town that ONLY used SAA pilots. SAA pilots know lots of other SAA pilots so they had a massive pool of pilots and looked after each other (at the expense of non airline pilots).

I still don't get it...

If I bought a Rolls Royce Phantom (US$500 000) and could choose between a driver that has done all the Industry Training (Advanced Driving Course etc), or one that does Valet Parking at the City Lodge (no disrespect intended) - SURELY that remains My Decision.

If the skilled and experienced driver(s) are available if/when I need them, at a rate which I am comfortable with, then that is Logic.

Who has never asked their "Garden Engineer" if he can Paint - are you not putting struggling Painters out of work then?

It's a Free Market - Adapt and you just might find yourself at the proverbial Top-of-the-Pile

:zzz:

maxrated

23rd Jul 2010, 07:54

I have a full time flying job but still do freelance on the side, here's the thing though, If I am going to work during my time off it has to be worth my while, so basically I don't get out of bed for less than 3500 ZAR per day.

I know for sure that at these rates, I am the last person that the charter queens will phone when they need a pilot and that they will use anyone else rather than me,(and they still phone me often) hence I don't believe that I am taking any work away from anyone.

Your thanks for this magnanimous gesture on my behalf is accepted in advance.
:E

Propellerpilot

23rd Jul 2010, 10:20

If SACAA continues to adapt towards JAA principles it may become legally impossible to priviledge more than 2 type ratings professionally at a given time or a maximum of 3 for TRI/TRE purposes in the near future.

Actually a good system in my view in terms of safety and might open doors for new people to get jobs, to move up and be forced to receive good training and then to concentrate on a maximum of two types.

This will force all those guys with numerous ratings to make a choice, which ones they want to keep and employ. So the possiblilty to fly charter on one other type still remains but anything further would become impossible. That would already help a lot and would also be good for the industry as well as the job market. Not for the individual freelancer though...

Q4NVS

23rd Jul 2010, 10:40

You are making the typical, arrogant assumption that you are better trained than the GA pilot and it's that very arrogance that will prevent you from "getting it".

I never made assumptions - You Did.

My point was that nobody can predicate to the owner of an expensive piece of equipment, whom he/she may or may not use to Drive (or Fly) it.

Hence my Example...

I don't fly Freelance (even on my Off Days), so frankly don't care...

:zzz:

Contract Dog

23rd Jul 2010, 11:33

Proppilot, in my view, restricting guys to 2 com aircraft at a time screws the guys even more. What if you decide on the BE20 and PC12 for example, and those pools dry up for a few weeks and you are HS125/B190/C208/DHC6/8 rated and a charter comes up but you cant fly it because though you are current, you can only fly the 200 or 12. This means that the more experience you gain on various types counts for **** and you have to go home and tell your wife and kids they cant eat because CAA wont let you work????

I have no inclination to go airline and dont do charter because I do more than enough flying on cantract to keep me happy and I rather enjoy my time off but, I do enjoy flying different aircraft as and when I can and it puts food on the table. Taking the choice of that away from the large number of crew out there who choose and enjoy flying different aircraft, in my view, will make flying rather dull and unexciting, not to mention that it would be unfair labour practice according to our constitution. provided you are current and tick all the boxes, fly as many aircraft as you want! I could thing of nothing more boring than staring at the same EFIS screen at 38 000 ft for the next 30 years of my life, but thats my choice and many others out there, take that away and we move back into being a dictatorship.

Dog