Ryanair wants to sell tickets to STAND UP and fly

[ba038]

Now Ryanair wants to sell tickets to STAND UP and fly: Airline to charge £4 for 'vertical seating' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1291103/Ryanair-sell-standing-room-tickets-4--funded-charging-passengers-use-toilet.html)


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/01/article-1291103-0A47B903000005DC-544_87x84.jpg (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1291103/Ryanair-sell-standing-room-tickets-4--funded-charging-passengers-use-toilet.html) Chief executive Michael O'Leary said safety testing for 'vertical seating' will take place next year, and the airline will also introduce a fee of £1 to use the lavatory. The plan is to remove the back ten rows of seats from the carrier's 250 planes and replace them with 15 rows of vertical seats. Two toilets at the back could also be removed to free up even more space.



Is this for real!.Do you think this will go ahead?

[A2QFI]

It will b*gger up the trim/Cof G!

[call100]

I think it was China's Spring airline that first had the idea early 2009 and have asked Boeing and Airbus to look at the idea.....Of course if it ever got licensed Ryan Air would jump at it...Standing-Room-Only Seats: The Photos (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/commercial_aviation/ThingsWithWings/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbb&plckPostId=Blog%3A7a78f54e-b3dd-4fa6-ae6e-dff2ffd7bdbbPost%3Afbba52f8-1d3c-4e79-aade-5c883affcd91&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)
The final insult eh!??

[FCS Explorer]

might even be more comfortable than sitting for everyone taller than ~180cm....

[cats_five]

Haven't you worked out yet that MoL and his denizens are past masters at thinking up outrageous things to get free publicity? Or do you believe (and propogate) every hare-brained idea you come across without stopping to think about it first?

[The SSK]

This story was all over the media a year ago (July 6th to be precise).

It was nothing more than an opportunistic publicity stunt. There is no way such 'seats' would ever be cretified for crash-worthiness, aircraft capacities are strictly regulated according to the number of exits - it can not happen and O'Leary knows this perfectly well - but hey, why turn down the opportunity to get Ryanair's name in the press.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

It is simply so you go on the Ryanair website and see their latest £10 seat sale. Great publicity for a great airline. :)

[captjns]

What's that saying about any publicity:suspect::E?

[ba038]

Public Relations!?!?!

[John_Mc]

My girlfriend used to work in the head office in Dublin and this is just another publicity stunt. Boeing refused to even look into charging for the toilet, and as stated above, standing "seats" would never get the green light from regulators.

I flew Ryanair as SLF from Faro on Monday and they were charging €20 per kg over, and €70 to checkin a new bag at the airport. NEVER AGAIN.

[Aviator330]

:{:{:{
why dont you just drug them into unconsciousness. Stack them like in a freighter fuselage. No need to serve drinks or make PA's, and the pile of bodies will keep warm without aircraft heating. Upon landing, lay the passengers out in the rain on the ramp until they wake up. By that time, the checked luggage may be ready for pickup.:ugh::ugh:

[grundyhead]

Which airline comes to mind when you see this video?

Enjoy Your Flight - Snotr (http://www.snotr.com/video/4658)

Made me titter....

[TJ1F]

Surely an aircraft is limited to the number of pax it can carry whether they standing ,lying down or whatever,, Ridiculous !!

[captjns]

Surely an aircraft is limited to the number of pax it can carry whether they standing ,lying down or whatever,, Ridiculous !!

Yes... the time it takes to evacuate passengers from an aircraft.

Appendix J to Part 25—Emergency Evacuation

The following test criteria and procedures must be used for showing compliance with §25.803:

(a) The emergency evacuation must be conducted with exterior ambient light levels of no greater than 0.3 foot-candles prior to the activation of the airplane emergency lighting system. The source(s) of the initial exterior ambient light level may remain active or illuminated during the actual demonstration. There must, however, be no increase in the exterior ambient light level except for that due to activation of the airplane emergency lighting system.

(b) The airplane must be in a normal attitude with landing gear extended.

(c) Unless the airplane is equipped with an off-wing descent means, stands or ramps may be used for descent from the wing to the ground. Safety equipment such as mats or inverted life rafts may be placed on the floor or ground to protect participants. No other equipment that is not part of the emergency evacuation equipment of the airplane may be used to aid the participants in reaching the ground.

(d) Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this appendix, only the airplane's emergency lighting system may provide illumination.

(e) All emergency equipment required for the planned operation of the airplane must be installed.

(f) Each internal door or curtain must be in the takeoff configuration.

(g) Each crewmember must be seated in the normally assigned seat for takeoff and must remain in the seat until receiving the signal for commencement of the demonstration. Each crewmember must be a person having knowledge of the operation of exits and emergency equipment and, if compliance with §121.291 is also being demonstrated, each flight attendant must be a member of a regularly scheduled line crew.

(h) A representative passenger load of persons in normal health must be used as follows:

(1) At least 40 percent of the passenger load must be female.
(2) At least 35 percent of the passenger load must be over 50 years of age.
(3) At least 15 percent of the passenger load must be female and over 50 years of age.
(4) Three life-size dolls, not included as part of the total passenger load, must be carried by passengers to simulate live infants 2 years old or younger.
(5) Crewmembers, mechanics, and training personnel, who maintain or operate the airplane in the normal course of their duties, may not be used as passengers.

(i) No passenger may be assigned a specific seat except as the Administrator may require. Except as required by subparagraph (g) of this paragraph, no employee of the applicant may be seated next to an emergency exit.

(j) Seat belts and shoulder harnesses (as required) must be fastened.

(k) Before the start of the demonstration, approximately one-half of the total average amount of carry-on baggage, blankets, pillows, and other similar articles must be distributed at several locations in aisles and emergency exit access ways to create minor obstructions.

(l) No prior indication may be given to any crewmember or passenger of the particular exits to be used in the demonstration.

(m) The applicant may not practice, rehearse, or describe the demonstration for the participants nor may any participant have taken part in this type of demonstration within the preceding 6 months.

(n) Prior to entering the demonstration aircraft, the passengers may also be advised to follow directions of crewmembers but may not be instructed on the procedures to be followed in the demonstration, except with respect to safety procedures in place for the demonstration or which have to do with the demonstration site. Prior to the start of the demonstration, the pre-takeoff passenger briefing required by §121.571 may be given. Flight attendants may assign demonstration subjects to assist persons from the bottom of a slide, consistent with their approved training program.

(o) The airplane must be configured to prevent disclosure of the active emergency exits to demonstration participants in the airplane until the start of the demonstration.

(p) Exits used in the demonstration must consist of one exit from each exit pair. The demonstration may be conducted with the escape slides, if provided, inflated and the exits open at the beginning of the demonstration. In this case, all exits must be configured such that the active exits are not disclosed to the occupants. If this method is used, the exit preparation time for each exit utilized must be accounted for, and exits that are not to be used in the demonstration must not be indicated before the demonstration has started. The exits to be used must be representative of all of the emergency exits on the airplane and must be designated by the applicant, subject to approval by the Administrator. At least one floor level exit must be used.

(q) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, all evacuees must leave the airplane by a means provided as part of the airplane's equipment.

(r) The applicant's approved procedures must be fully utilized, except the flightcrew must take no active role in assisting others inside the cabin during the demonstration.

(s) The evacuation time period is completed when the last occupant has evacuated the airplane and is on the ground. Provided that the acceptance rate of the stand or ramp is no greater than the acceptance rate of the means available on the airplane for descent from the wing during an actual crash situation, evacuees using stands or ramps allowed by paragraph (c) of this appendix are considered to be on the ground when they are on the stand or ramp.

[Just a spotter]

The work on the "Standing chair" is all fine and well, its been around for a while.

The issue is whether the airframe as it currently exists (and as we're talking FR it'll be 737-800) can accommodate the evacuation of the the increased number of passengers, an extra 30 in this case (5 extra rows x 6 "seats" each), within the 90 seconds allowed using only half the exits. And, who's paying for the recertification?

I'm sure there's someone here who can (and will) correct me if I'm wrong, that 800 is certified for 189 pax. But when Boeing pushed for the 200+ pax 739 they needed to add a door on each side to the design to accommodate evacuation times.

JAS

[trident3A]

or you could just drug them into unconsciousness. Stack 'em like cordwood in a freighter fuselage. No need to serve drinks or make PA's, and the pile of bodies will keep warm without aircraft heating. Upon landing, lay the passengers out in the rain on the ramp until they wake up. By that time, the checked luggage may be ready for pickup.

Excellent :)

[PaperTiger]

I think gullibility is the whole premise behind Ryanair.

QED :hmm:

[dubh12000]

This is pure spin from Ryanair, but it begs the question why the marketing departments from places like centre parcs are not pouncing on how crazy all this has become. A nice advertising campaign focusing on the whole 2010 airline experience, fronting up to MOL could work out really well in my opinion.


(UK centric example I know......but you know what I mean)

[Theviewdownhere]

They are even mentioning this in their latest in flight magazine. Stating that they are in talks with Boeing to introduce these "seats" to sectors under 1 hour.

[Economics101]

This is the same MOL who has said, apropos of a possible visit to the R of Ireland by HM the Queen, that he would be pleased to carry her for free, and that furthermore he would waive baggage charges.

Now I suppose there are some idiots who will fall for this joke as well.

Mind you, he would probably sting HM for not having done her online check-in.

[WHBM]

I'm sure that quite a number who do not know about the aviation regs will fall for this one.

But where is the certifying authority, in this case the IAA, making any statement about this. If they were making any attempt at proper oversight of the carrier they would have a press statement out 5 minutes after this nonsense appeared, saying that it is just not permissible. They might even have the Chief Executive of such a carrier in for a chat, to explain that if they show such a blatant misunderstanding of the regulations then they had better be subject to a little more oversight than before.

In fact I would suggest that as well as the Chief Executive, they require the Chairman to come along as well. Then Bonderman would have to trudge over from the US, and he would doubtless have a few choice words for Michael O'Stupidity afterwards .......

[OFSO]

Aviator330, this

why dont you just drug them into unconsciousness. Stack them like in a freighter fuselage. No need to serve drinks or make PA's, and the pile of bodies will keep warm without aircraft heating.

is already done by the French authorities at Perpignan, where departing passengers are kept standing for an hour in a room about half the size necessary to contain a 738 load, with no ventilation, water, food, or a/c: after you embark in a zombie-like fasion, and the plane lumbers into the air, you generally come back to some awareness of your surroundings somewhere north of Clermont-Ferrand.

Being 'drugged into unconsciousness' on FR937 would be a definite improvement.....

[sea oxen]

Someone on R&N came up with a headline generator for incidents - you know, 'Terror at 80,000 feet as brave co-pilot bravely avoids crèche in jumbo 737"

We need one for Ryanair:
Big Issue now Ryainair in-flight magazine
O'Leary to do your mother with every flight, wheelbarrow if you want checked luggage
Ryanair stewardesses smelling of wee beg for 20p for a cup of tea
Toilet paper to be sold by the sheet on Ryainair from next winter
Ryanair begins recruiting in Brixton to develop a more assertive on-board selling approach - will split crack profits 50:50

It's lazy journalism - Lunchtime O'Toole stuff - and it demonstrates what a rag the Telegraph has become that they entertain such cockwaffle.

SO

[PAXboy]

MoL is going about this in his usual intelligent fashion and I'm NOT being sarcastic.

He knows full well that he has to change views in Boeing and the various national aviation authorites. You have to start small. Make an apparently outrageous statement and then keep plugging away it. Remember how many people thought that BA was 'the world's favourite airline'? Just keep saying it often enough and it begins to have it's own weight.

This could take ten years but that's OK because, in time, the CAA and others will sound like they are out of step. Backpackers will see 'stand-up flying' as a natural thing to do and a challenge as good as bungee jumping. "I travelled stand-up and my fare was only £2.00 all-in." No, I might not want to do stand-up but I'm a middle aged bloke who wants to snooze or read. Plenty of youngsters would lap this up. OK, so it might not work on the 738 (CofG), but there are other a/c that can be adapted.

This is a long game and FR are playing it with their usual brilliance. I never cease to admire them.

[korrol]

Surely the next obvious economy for the Ryanairs of this world - after getting rid of cabin crew of course - would be to hand redundancy slips to its pilots.

Think of all the money that could be be saved, no salaries, no pensions to pay,no rosters to bother about - and it would eliminate all the mistakes and human errors made on the flight decks: -

This is what the New Scientist reported on June 28th:-

"WOULD you fly in an airliner knowing there were no pilots in the cockpit? This is no mere hypothetical question. The US Federal Aviation Administration this month kicked off what could be the first step in a journey towards the full automation of the airliners we all travel on."...

The full article is on Drone alone: how airliners may lose their pilots - tech - 28 June 2010 - New Scientist (http://tiny.cc/gjgfj)

...And the big bonus for us passengers is that we get to sit/stand in that nice comfy front seat with the best view in the plane.;)

[AndoniP]

Make an apparently outrageous statement and then keep plugging away it

he can plug away all he likes for as long as he wants.

all it amounts to is lazy journalism and free PR for cheapo airline.

‘We polled about 120,000 passengers, 80,000 said they would consider the seats if they were free, 42 per cent said they would use the seats if the fare was half that of a traditional seat’ - so there you have it. the underclasses have spoken.

Thankfully this stupid idea will never see the light of day.

[PAXboy]

AndoniPall it amounts to is lazy journalism and free PR for cheapo airline.Yes it is also both of those but free publicity is free.

- so there you have it. the underclasses have spoken.You might want to consider them below you - but they are people with money and aspirations.

Thankfully this stupid idea will never see the light of day.I wouldn't take a bet on that. Come back and check within the next ten years.

[call100]

As MOL has only hijacked a Chinese idea the actual implementation or not would seem to be down to the Chinese regulators....I don't think they'll be too bothered about international regs on their internal flights.
Been around it long enough now to know never say never!!

[Big Harvey]

Those who identify it as just another publicity stunt exploiting lazy journalism are 100% correct. As well as O'Leary another past master at this type of thing is Sir Richard Branson. Although his strategy is slightly different to O'Leary's in that he tries to get good publicity rather than simply any publicity as O'Leary does, there is the same tendency by newspapers to print Virgin's press releases pretty much verbatim and present them as "news."

Every so often Virgin will do a press release, e.g. about some futuristic project, and the media will slavishly print it, even if the "story" is pretty much identical to what was being reported (as the result of a previous Virgin press release) a few months or even a year or more ago.

[Anansis]

Has anyone seen how tightly packed Ryanair's seats are? They could maybe save an inch or two a row at the most allowing for maybe six additional passengers. Doesn't seem economical, even if loads are consistently in the 90%'s. I am the price conscious type student traveller to which Paxboy alludes and personally I welcome anything which will allow me to travel more cheaply. However I really can't see how standing spaces would allow them to pack passengers in much more densely than they already are.

Removing the two rear toilets on the other hand could maybe give them an extra two rows of seats. Charging to use the remaining one would certainly reduce demand although I'm pretty sure that in the UK the law requires them to have a free lavatory if they wish to serve alcohol for consumption on the premises...

[sea oxen]

PAXboy

You know your stuff, but it stretches one's credulity to think that even if the technical issues (meeting G regulations, stiffening the floor, preventing one's limbs from flailing and all that) could be met, what of operational problems?

I eavesdropped in on a conversation being made by a few bogans in the smoking section of my local tonight. One said that he'd find it "no problem - Dublin's only 50 minutes away". I would very much like to meet someone who's reached Dublin from a London airport on a commercial flight - and by that I mean the length of his occupancy of the aircraft - in 50 minutes.

I admire Mr O'Leary's business model, and I'd prefer that some people fly on airlines I won't use, because it drives down the price of my flights. Let's say I want to go to Berlin for two nights (alone).
Flights: £190
Accommodation: £200
U/S Bahn &c: £20
Food and drink: £150
Shopping: £300
Even if Ryanair gave the flights away for free, I'd rather burn the money on having a (relatively) hassle-free experience. Others, who are less jaded and have time on their hands, would jump at the chance.

So let him spruik his fantasies to his heart's content. In retrospect, I should be condoning this media feeding frenzy because it increases the odds that my chosen flight will be emptier. But the Telegraph?

SO

[PAXboy]

I agree sea oxen, I agree. But I think that MoL/FR are on to a winner:
They get the changes and sell more tickets and have fought the good fight for the customers. Yay for FR.
They lose and tell the customers, "We tried but those pen-pushers won't let us. But here are some really great deals anyway." Yay for FR.Yes, I am cynical - but FR makes it work for them most times. Do I really, truly think it will happen? I would not be surprised.

The reason for that is - whenever one group of people set up something in terms that 'it will never change' then another bunch will certainly change it!! Let me take an extreme example. The Iron Curtain. It was ALWAYS going to come down, it was only a question of when and how.

Would I want standing seats? No. Would I mind if they did it? No. I just think that it's nothing to be bothered about and I'll just enjoy watching FR being FR.

[One Outsider]

Ryanair's business model is an unsustainable one. It's a boom-and-fizzle-out model based on continually reducing the value of the product, both the actual and the perceived.

Everything about the company, from the colours to the uniforms to the website is designed to convey "cheapness". They have conditioned their customers into expecting the price of the product to become lower and lower. Once that can not be achieved any more the boom ends and the fizzle starts.

Judging by how they are seeking new revenue streams and are halting expansion that point is close to being reached, if it hasn't been already.

[PAXboy]

I don't agree One Outsider.

Yes, he does reduce the price but everyone knows that the number of really low priced tickets are far fewer than the medium and high priced ones. The main FR thread http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/345056-ryanair-questions-comments-bouquets-brickbats-merged.html (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/345056-ryanair-questions-comments-bouquets-brickbats-merged.html) (into which this will doubtless be merged) repeats often that BA can be lower on some routes. The trick of FR is that they try to serve routes with no competition, so people have to use them and, much documented, have been able to get serious subsidies from regional airfields and govts to operate there.

These subsidies have been reductions in landing fees or actual payments TO the airline, for operating there. So they are playing both ends into the middle and winning! There are also documented cases where, if the subsidy is not renewed after the first agreed period of time, they simply close the route and go. This is done to show other airports and regions that they are serious. Since those regions have benefited from FR bringing 1,000s of tourists and holiday home owners - they think it's a good price to pay.

Their grip on costs and getting the FC + CC to work for very little (in return for a leg up into the business) is second to none. Also, as I understand it, they have a purchase/sale/lease back arrangement on their a/c that has given them huge amounts of cash in the past. Yes, it is a recession but they have money being saved and money being earned in all directions.

Lastly, for anyone that gets fed up with them and swears 'never again' in a huffy voice - there are new customers delivered every year. All those 18 year olds leaving school and wanting to travel? Each year another batch for FR!

[Pohutu]

It's all about expectations, and Michael O'Leary is clearly looking to change expectations. People are currently horrifed at the idea of standing on an hour-long flight. But there are an awful lot of train commuters who stand for that long every day, sometimes standing right by the first class section with empty seats. So they have a choice, but have chosen to save money and stand.

[PAXboy]

Perfectly put Pohutu. Trains and coaches and buses do it all the time. Ever travelled on a train in the third world?!

Yes, it is true that an emergency stop during departure or landing is more severe than in a coach BUT trains travel everyday at 150mph / 260kph. If they come off the rails, or have an emergency stop, it can get bad for the pax and they legally have no seat belts at all.

[Avman]

I don't understand the need for RYR to continously move the goal posts. SOUTHWEST Airlines (USA), the pioneering LCC which RYR based it's original business model on, has made very very few changes to it's original concept and it's still a winner today.

[sea oxen]

PAXboy

It's a sign of the times that the person who'd happily accept a flight on a downmarket airline will have a newer and flashier mobile telephone than you.

To be honest, if I took cheap flights, I'd prefer to be stacked up like cordwood. as long as I had my own compartment. It's a sleeper train, really.

For landing, you are superglued into place and given a bottle of solvent in case of emergency.

Unfortunately this will not work as everyone will simply sniff the solvent and end up as incapable as Business Class on QF LHR-SYD :E

SO

[NutLoose]

There is a film you know of them testing the passenger loading facility for the new seats

see

YouTube - Thunderbird 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAzLhNnMDEw&feature=related)

[cargoattendant]

Now I'm not sure if this has been though of but what about the standing seats vs overhead lockers? As most of you know only short people can stand properly underneath the overhead locker (myself included)

And what about the proper "Brace positions" that people are supposed to adopt in the event of emergency landing?

Also in addition, I know these seats may be there for the shorter flights but suppose a passenger with circulation problems purchased one of these seats and had to stand for a period of time that may not seem long by you and me. What if she chooses to sue?

All too many variables here by my opinion but I guess they're trying it on :eek:

[AndoniP]

You might want to consider them below you - but they are people with money and aspirations

Who? people that pay £1 to go to Spain? Yeah, they must be minted... :}

And I agree with Avman, the whole thing screams 'cheapo'. That ghastly website. The horrid interior of the aircraft. Eurgh. Oh, and that daft trumpet sound, "we're ahead of schedule yet again" when landing. Yeah, if you didn't define the flight times with additional overhead included.

[Anansis]

Who? people that pay £1 to go to Spain? Yeah, they must be minted... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif



Yeah, they must be. Like it or not Ryanair has the healthiest balance sheet in the industry :E

[Anansis]

There is a film you know of them testing the passenger loading facility for the new seats

see

YouTube - Thunderbird 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAzLhNnMDEw&feature=related)


:D:D:D Made me laugh! Suppose it would be a great way of beating the traditional Ryanair boarding scrum! ;)

[lucavigg]

Speaking of boarding scrum. I was once on a flight from Stanstead to Ciampino. People rushed to the front and rear doors of the Ryanair plane. I was waiting patiently at the back to board, walked calmly to the rear door to find passengers packed in like sardines in the seats close to the exit. A quick glance forwards also had the passengers packed in at the front of the plane near the door.

I simply walked on, went to the middle of the plane and found about two or three completely empty rows. I got a window seat with no one sitting next to me. Some late arrivals did take up four of the remaining eleven seats but apart from that I had masses of space.

And some of those people crammed in at the front and back paid extra for advanced boarding.

Having said that, you get what you pay for with Ryanair these days and having seen a few interviews with Mr OL, I won't be giving him any more of my money anytime soon.

[lucavigg]

OK. I've just had the best idea ever! Mr OL, if you're lurking, I want royalties from this.

Instead of seats, how about 3 or 4 beds, (or as I like to call them, coffins) stacked one on top of the other a bit like those pods that the Japanese call hotels for businessmen. You get in through a hole at the aisle end, lie down on a mattress, with a pillow. strap in and enjoy your flight. There would still be a central aisle and beds either side of it.

Remember the film The Fifth Element, when Bruce Willis gets on the spaceship whose interior is a bit like this and they tranquilise him? Then you wouldn't need any cabin crew!

I haven't done the maths, but the beds would have to be angled slightly to fit a 5' 10" long bed in the space normally used for three average seats (just under 5').

People over 5'10" are freaks and should not be flying in the first place! :oh:

It would certainly end the envy of economy passengers when they think about the comfy beds that Business and First Class passengers get.

Unfortunately, there could not be a door on the hole at the aisle end as the build-up of Methane could be too dangerous!

[OSAGYEFO2]

If the pax are jammed in like sardines how would the cc get to them to peddle the extras? (may cause a drop in revenue and crew commission):ugh:

[lucavigg]

Yes you're right. Ryanair wouldn't go for it. It would only be viable if you could get more pax on board.

It just came to me in a flash of stupidity!