Expat pilots : Are they really safe for Indian Aviation ?

[alphabravocharlie1]

The Hindu Business Line : Conscienceless on aviation safety (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2010/06/23/stories/2010062350170900.htm)


M ay 22, 2010, was a black day for Indian aviation. The sufferings of the families of 158 departed souls can only have been assuaged if people in authority had a conscience. This includes the Government, the judiciary, the legal fraternity, airline owners and the regulators. All of them need to do some soul-searching on this issue. I would also like to take them back to an article written three years back ( Index of /2007/05/16/stories (http://www.blonnet.com/2007/05/16/stories/) 2007051600 560900.htm). The contents are just as relevant today, though it is doubtful if they disturbed the conscience of anyone at that time.

In June 1972, Vietnamese photographer Nick Ut captured the stirring image of a nine-year-old Kim Phuc fleeing her village which was under a napalm attack. This picture won him the Pulitzer prize and outraged the conscience of the whole world. People with a conscience in India should remember the vivid image of a fireman carrying the foam-covered body of a young girl from the crashed aircraft after the recent fatal accident in Mangalore.

The crash brings into focus three issues: the standard of expatriate pilots, fatigue, and the safety aspects of our airports. Within a few hours of the crash, the Minister gave a clean chit to the safety aspects of the airport and said fatigue was not a factor, though the airport does not conform to several mandatory standards. And though the crash took place in the early hours of the day, when a person's circadian rhythm is at its lowest.
How did he come to such a conclusion on those two important factors? Doesn't this influence the findings of the enquiry panel? This is a clear failure on the part of the Government and a pointer to the urgent need for an independent regulator and an independent safety board.
On June 9, 2010, a Blue Dart B-757 had a near mishap during take-off at 5.15 in the morning. The crew, which had commenced the flight in the early part of the night, lined up on the right edge of the runway and took off, damaging the runway edge lights. This was another pointer to the circadian low affecting flight safety.
In July 2007, a scientific study-based Civil Aviation Requirement (CAR) on Flight and Duty Time Limits was issued by the DGCA. This placed a lot of emphasis on the aspect of rest periods and circadian lows. Airline owners perhaps found this might hamper their path to profits, as they would require additional crew. They used their power lobby and the Ministry ordered the CAR cancelled by the DGCA and brought into force an outdated circular issued in 1992.
The pilots' associations got the CAR restored by the Mumbai High Court. But, within a month, the same court overturned the judgment when a battery of high-powered lawyers representing the airlines and the Government, overturned its own judgment. The matter is now in the Supreme Court for its verdict. In the meantime, a fatal crash has cost 158 lives and another near-disaster occurred, with fatigue as the most likely cause.
The Civil Aviation Minister and the civil aviation regulator have maintained that the standards of the foreign pilots who come into the country are high. But it is a fact that rules were manipulated by officials in the DGCA to make several Indian pilots foreigners.

List of near disasters

Let us analyse the near disasters that we have had during the last seven years, where foreign pilots have been involved. The year coincides with the boom in aviation and the total disregard for rules and regulations which has become the cancer of our aviation culture.

In December 2003, an expatriate Examiner pilot of Air Sahara, landed on the wrong runway, which was closed for maintenance, at Kolkata. Fortunately, the men and equipment had just vacated the runway.

In December 2005, an expatriate Examiner pilot belonging to Air Sahara, landed high and fast at Mumbai. The aircraft overshot the runway and has been written off as a hull loss.

In December 2005, an expatriate Examiner pilot in Air Deccan went off the side of the runway at the old Bangalore airport. The aircraft was written off as a hull loss.

In May 2007, an expatriate pilot of Paramount Airways, overshot the runway while landing at Vizag.

In July 2007, an expatriate Instructor pilot, went off the runway while landing at Cochin in rain.

In June 2007, a Spicejet flight landed on the closed runway at Delhi. Fortunately, no one was on the closed runway at that time.

On June 9, 2008, an expatriate captain of Spicejet landed on the wrong runway at Delhi. The runway was closed and it was fortunate that the equipment and men had just moved off the runway.

On December 1, 2008, an expatriate captain of Spicejet landed on the wrong runway at Kolkata. Here, again, the men and equipment had vacated the closed runway.
On March 2, 2009, an expatriate captain of Jetlite (former Air Sahara) landed on the wrong runway at Kolkata.

On November 3, 2009, a Go Air flight operated by an expatriate Instructor pilot aimed short of the runway, twice. The flight was to land beyond the middle of the runway as 600 men were working at the intersection of the runways at Mumbai. The captain ignored all the signs indicating that the first portion of the runway was closed. But for the ATC asking them to ‘go around', all the 600 on ground and 150 on board, would have perished.

In November 2009, a Kingfisher Airlines flight with an expatriate captain overshot the runway at Mumbai, while landing in rain. The aircraft has been written off as a hull loss.


On May 22, 2010, the Air India Express flight with an expatriate captain crashed while landing at Mangalore, killing 158 people on board.


Can the authorities still claim that the standards of expatriates coming into the country are high? What is glaring is that the expatriate captain who landed on the wrong runway in December 2009 was supposedly terminated along with the Indian co-pilot. However, the expatriate captain was back with the same airline in a couple of months. He failed the breathalyser test before a scheduled flight in March 2009, and his authorisation to fly in India was cancelled by the current DGCA.
Were the airline and the licensing authorities in the DGCA right in permitting this captain to fly in India again?
There was also the case of the chief pilot of a private airline, an expatriate, who flew and conducted proficiency checks for more than three months, without the mandatory experience. The airline and the officials in the DGCA turned a blind eye until the current DGCA ordered his authorisation to be cancelled.
Political interference and judicial apathy have contributed to the lowering of safety and moral standards in Indian aviation. Commercial considerations have been the prime focus. Unless all those involved in regulating the sector start listening to their consciences, the tragedy in Mangalore is not going to be the last.
(The author is an airline instructor pilot with extensive flying experience, and a consultant in the field of accident prevention. [email protected])

[weido_salt]

Doesn't look good for the expat trainers and checkers does it.

Maybe your source could divulge how many expat trainers and checkers have been fired for failing a local?

[viking320]

The expat issue is a political as well as a resonable one.Flying an aeroplane and carrying public fare paying passengers should be taken seriously.The STDs are set by the DGCA .If anyone for that matter if is is expat,local,marsian............etc cant pass the checks and achieve a safe flying STD then they should not be at the controls of an aeroplane.period...
Now the facts which has been pointed out if this is correct then DGCA have to look in to this seriously.They have to make sure that flying in the Indian subcontinent is safe.
The FTDL in Indian aviation is an issue to be taken seriously.As you know the mangalore crash was an accident waiting to happen.If you look at the incidents which was happening before which points to a swiss chesse model.
There is no short cuts in aviation .You may get away with it 99 times but oneday you will get stuck and thats the day we see people paying with their lives .this is the case of mangalore accident.
The sooner the Public ,DGCA,Pilots,operators and media can realise these short comings then we can avoid accidents.
This is the time to have a good long hard look at things and move forward by adopting a Zero tolerance on safety,training,licencing etc.
These are the ? ????? you can ask

1 Are the pilots flying in India properly trained.....??? Do they have regular recurrent training,whats involved in the training program ,whats the emphassis on the CRM,ATC communications,medical STDS,

2 what about the flight tests ............who does them any conflict of interest involved,If some one does not make the STD do they given remedial training

Allways remember when we pointing 0ne finger at some one there are four pointing at you.
so see what you have done to make India a better place in aviation......

I can tell you my 2 .5 years in India have been good and i am sure I have passed my experience to many many pilots who infact are flying safe and good safe capts.

All the best

[pilotara]

Dear friend,

to answer your first question...do you think a 250 hour total time pilot is safe to fly a A320, B737, 777, A330 etc etc ? Have you thought that alot of the Cpt's (expats and indians) are actually flying SINGLE pilot in adverse wx conditions...very short runways etc etc. Cause I fly with some really really in experience F/O's here in India.
Also in India the phrase ''ground stop'' due to wx does not exist !!! basically, TS and lightning over the field (CCU) and tower allows airplanes to t/o and land despite the fact that alot of us have to actually enter Dhaka airspace to try to come and land in CCU cause even our alternate has the same wx conditions.
I do agree that who ever comes to work as an Cpt, and specially as a TRE/TRI needs to be checked and be propered trained into Indian aviation (specially wx).

Why don't you talk about how many times locals make mistakes...oh i forgot the indian news don't cover that they only mention when a foreigner is operating.
Here is a fact. Jet, Air India they have crew bases in Europe and US and Canada and by the way only expats are based there..you know why ?
Cause few months back FAA was about to downgrade Indian Aviation and put them in the same category as Indonesia. Also the lack of proper use of radio comms is a very very sore subject in India.

Few days back I had an DGCA FID on my jump, telling me how strict they are on selecting pilots (f/o's) and how ''sharp'' the 250-300 hours F/O's behind 757 or 737 etc etc are. So i said, ok, looked my senior F/O (with 1800 hours total time and ready for upgrade) disengaged the autopilot and ask him to hand fly an ILS with the FD on on a visual day with calm winds going to VVZ...
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

I have flown also with expats and i was really really surprised how the hell did they pass through upgrade training ???

My dear friend Indian Aviation is on the beggining stage and they have along way to go before they can reach a certain standard..alot of potential in India but the wrong MENTALITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You want the expats out...no problem...don't renew the contracts or FATA..DGCA keeps telling that no more expats and more are coming and FATA's being renewed etc etc..why ?????
Why DGCA is asking for help from FAA and JAA (EASA) ? Why top managment in many companies is being run by non Indians (europeans, americans ) ?
Before you start asking if expats are safe for indian aviation ask if Indians are safe also...

Best of luck in your career and i just put my 2 cents and experience from being here 2 years and deceided not to renew my contract even though to this day company really is pushing to stay...I had fun in India made great friends for life but my dear friend the mentality that most of the senior indian captains have is hurting your aviation...new blood with new attitude is needed. :ok::)

[COCOCHANEL]

I find this topic very racist.

For the umpteenth time....A pilot's nationality does not determine his skills, guys! Fast forward and move on please...

[rdr]

racist it is.
but we have ars......oles like alphabravocharlie who keep posting this sort of crap. (probably in denial that he likes white boys)
then along comes puss....viking, who needs a job, telling everyone that he is gods gift to Indian Aviation, and everyone else does not know their job.
all the racist ranting and postings in the world will fly you not a plane.

sorry coco i agree with you, but you meet all types in this game.

[Burger Thing]

racist it is.
but we have ars......oles like alphabravocharlie who keep posting this sort of crap. (probably in denial that he likes white boys)

Yupp. The moment this pillock gets banned from this forum, I will burn a candle i my church :rolleyes:

[kellykelpie]

In June 2007, a Spicejet flight landed on the closed runway at Delhi. On June 9, 2008, an expatriate captain of Spicejet landed on the wrong runway at Delhi.

Alphabravocharlie1

I have chosen two examples from your list but in reality many of the examples you have given could be used. Is the problem with expatriate pilots or with latent failures in the Indian Aviation System?

Active failures on behalf of "expatriate" pilots are neither necessary for accidents nor are they the root cause. The problem lies in the latent failures or "resident pathogens" that lay dormant in the Indian Aviation system as a whole. If this had of happened in a more mature system, the question would have been "what contributed to a pilot landing on the wrong runway at an International airport twice in one year?"

To blame the pilot for an accident based on where he/she has grown up is both biased and unhelpful. Try looking closer to home!

[aditya104]

There was never a better time for the so-called "expat pilot" to make history. To become a hero.
It takes all sorts to make a world-anonymous
:)

[viking320]

From your post its very clear that you have not read what I have wrote neither you are not willing to understand whats needed to be done for your own aviation growth in your country.

Some have started the thread and I believe I can write what my thoughts are .
You dont have to agree to that at all.thats what is called freedom of speech right.

Now for all your emotional outbursts to myself and others I would say
have a good look at yourself and what you have written about Alpha,Bravo,charlie. and myself .
Racisim is not colour based..........................

Its your ignorance that will kill you oneday.
so if you are an pilot try to respect other peoples opinion and try not to be a hero.......

Good luck
Viking

[Neptunus Rex]

The author is an airline instructor pilot with extensive flying experience, and a consultant in the field of accident prevention.abc1 would have more credibility if he/she were to state the exact level - TC, STC, T/IRE - and on what type he operates.

The corruption that is rife in India allows some charlatans to be employed who have not had their credentials properly checked. Whilst I am sure that many expat pilots in India are the real thing, sadly, many are not.

The three examiners mentioned in the first of the quoted incidents may well have been in the jump seat, rather than operating pilots.

[xuejiesandi]

GAWD!!! I'm so tired of seeing this on different forums:ugh:. There should be some sort of check on these guys! Freedom is good till it is not abused, after a point it becomes pain in the A**. These posts here are defaming Indian pilots as general. For the advantage of some, who want anti-expat movement for their own benefit, so that some 250 hour wonders can find work. Does it require a lot of intelligence to understand a Pilot is not Expat or Domestic? Level of expertise defines him. There can be jack :mad:& Aces either way.

Can the authorities still claim that the standards of expatriates coming into the country are high?
My question is "Can the authorities still claim that the standards of locals are high??":rolleyes:

2008
VT -DAK Improper maintenance of the Helipad. Cessna
VT - ACC Pilot – i. Low Flying
ii. Disregard of laid down procedure Cessna
VT-EMR Pilot-Non adherence to laid down procedure. TB20
VT-IGC Pilot-Non adherence to laid down procedure . KA C90
VT-EHY Pilot-Lacked in training and experience
2007
VT-EGK Non adherence of procedure by the ground crew Chetak Helicopter
VT-RGB Bird Hit. Cessna 152
VT-JOY a)Low experience of pilot on type
b) Noncompliance of correct refueling procedure P 68 C


Latest
C152 Ujjain killing Both the instructors & Student

None of these are expats, should I be okay to exercise my right of opinion to draw conclusion that Indian pilots are not up-to the standard.


The issue is not of the nationality the issue is though the airport does not conform to several mandatory standards. the corruption, in Airport certification, Airmen certification, Recruitment & everything my eyes can see.

Lets try to oppose this, lets try & point out how many sons, daughter & relatives of DGCA officials are working without actually deserving the post. Kicking Expats just 'cause they are expat is not gonna clean the system, it's might make you find work, but in a corrupt & biased system.

[alphabravocharlie1]

@wiedo salt, RDR, COCOCHANEL, pilotara, kellykelpie

you are all simply hastily jumping to conclusions.
why dont you all have a open mind in the first place to understand what really the author (Capt. Ranganathan) has tried to talk about in the article? and especially RDR who can do nothing better than resorting to name calling and abusing .......:ugh:

and pl tell me what exactly is racist about this news article ?

what is wrong in questioning the standards and credentials of pilots (irrespective of nationality) looking for work here ? Is that racism ??!!! :ugh:

expats coming to India for work are employed as captains, trainers or examiners.
Im sure u all will agree that these (tri,tre,captains) are far more responsible and critical positions than that of first officers.

therefore, it is important to see that standards are not compromised while hiring expats.

[Burger Thing]

Your only purpose is to stir the pot. :=

If you are so concerned about the aviation standard in India, the why don't you do something useful, like taking a knife and start scratching off the rubber deposits on India's Main runways :}

Forum Troll!

[jatt_pilot]

just a quick question

i personally think a person should be allowed to fly where ever any 1 is willing to hire him. Expats are most welcome if they have the experience, y not.

my question being

1. all the so called 250 hr wonder boys ( me being 1 of them) almost all of us have done are training in canada / usa / europe / australia etc
we go for Type ratings to CAE or again the US of A etc.
so if with the same training people in other countries have gotten jobs y such a hue n cry when we got the same (not that there are any left ) :) ???

2. after almost similar training standards where are we lacking,,,, seriously no sarcasm intended i`d like to know and work on that.

ps : i really dont want to be dragged into a discussion regarding expats being allowed in india or not, as long as there are people willing to hire them they have as much of a right to be here as any 1 of us

[jimmygill]

If you are so concerned about the aviation standard in India, the why don't you do something useful, like taking a knife and start scratching off the rubber deposits on India's Main runways


May be he is not doing that because there are too many planes landing on wrong runway.

[jimmygill]

ps : i really dont want to be dragged into a discussion regarding expats being allowed in india or not, as long as there are people willing to hire them they have as much of a right to be here as any 1 of us



I promise I will not drag you into the expat issue. But you raised a pertinent point.

1. I have work rights in India.
2. I have right to be meted out equal treatment in India.
3. No one outside India can get work rights in India, unless these rights are
granted by collective will of people of India.
4. Every Indian has a right to voice his/her opinion in order to influence the
policies determining expat work 'privileges'.
5. These privileges can be extended or retracted depending on our collective
will.
6. The process involved in determining this collective will is essentially political.


What expats have in India is a privilege, not a right. And these privilege will soon be retracted. In a political action everything is fair.

There are some good expats and there are some not so good ones. But, weevil must be ground with wheat.

[jimmygill]

Lets try to oppose this, lets try & point out how many sons, daughter & relatives of DGCA officials are working without actually deserving the post. Kicking Expats just 'cause they are expat is not gonna clean the system, it's might make you find work, but in a corrupt & biased system.

But before that don't we need to get the bread on the table.


In order to change a system you must begin with accepting the system, enter it and use it as a leverage to change itself. In order to get there if you have to create false stories about reckless expats, its a fair game.

I know TopTup won't agree to this, but TopTup hasn't sruvived this corrupt system either.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You Indians make me laugh man

Why don't you quickly run and tell Cathay and Emirates and all the other serious expat airlines how at risk they are, how they need to quickly sack all their expats and replace them with Indians in order to improve their safety standards :D:D:D

Now seriously, if I was a journalist for a proper newspaper like the Times or the Sydney Morning Herald or in fact any journalist in a first world country, and I wanted to cause some trouble, if I went back into all the lists of incident reports for a few years until I had enough reports to write an article pointing out all the incidents of woman pilots, or black pilots, or Indian pilots, or Muslim pilots, or whatever, and demanding that they all be removed from their jobs, it would be easy to do. However you can be very sure that about 10 seconds after the article was published I would be absolutely crucified by the political-correctness police, and would lose my job overnight and never work as a reporter ever again.

But in India ... it seems nobody bats an eyelid when blatantly unresearched racism / sexism / minority bashing / whatever, gets front page news. That is not news my friend ... that newspaper article is not so much an indictment of how bad expat pilots are, as it is how bad Indian journalists are.

Then again ... in India it also seems that nobody cares when millions of women and children and your most vulnerable citizens are living in cardboard boxes and sh!tting on the streets and dying from starvation and diseases, while their big industrialists and cricket stars are living next door in huge mansions counting their billions. But that's all right ... lets keep on writing trash newspaper articles blaming the "expats" :ok:

[jimmygill]

You Indians make me laugh man

Thank you.



Why don't you quickly run and tell Cathay and Emirates and all the other serious expat airlines how at risk they are, how they need to quickly sack all their expats and replace them with Indians in order to improve their safety standards


You have a highly misplaced sense of generalization. If emiratee pilot's don't have jobs, emiratees will throw out expats, as simple as that, same with Hong Kong. If you are an expat you will know the relevance of that statement.
Expats are a short term feature in any good paying job in any economy.



Now seriously, if I was(were) a journalist for a proper newspaper like the Times or the Sydney Morning Herald or in fact any journalist in a first world country, and I wanted to cause some trouble, if I went back into all the lists of incident reports for a few years until I had enough reports to write an article pointing out all the incidents of woman pilots, or black pilots, or Indian pilots, or Muslim pilots, or whatever, and demanding that they all be removed from their jobs, it would be easy to do. However you can be very sure that about 10 seconds after the article was published I would be absolutely crucified by the political-correctness police, and would lose my job overnight and never work as a reporter ever again.


You cannot be journalist if you think 'expat' is some sort of race or gender of human beings. Or may be the first world The Times and Sydney Herald will accept your level of linguistic prowess, but I am sure The Hindu will not.

Yes expats a minority, but by no means an exploited one.

Terming anti-expat sentiments as racist, is a sinister racist imagination which works on clubbing all expats into one race. For God's sake which race is expat. You tell me if I am against expats, than which race am I against.




But in India ... it seems nobody bats an eyelid when blatantly unresearched racism / sexism / minority bashing / whatever, gets front page news. That is not news my friend ... that newspaper article is not so much an indictment of how bad expat pilots are, as it is how bad Indian journalists are.



That author is not a journalist, he is highly experienced Instructor/Examiner Pilot with an airline.


Then again ... in India it also seems that nobody cares when millions of women and children and your most vulnerable citizens are living in cardboard boxes and sh!tting on the streets and dying from starvation and diseases, while their big industrialists and cricket stars are living next door in huge mansions counting their billions. But that's all right ... lets keep on writing trash newspaper articles blaming the "expats"

As though you do care, if you have come across those kids ****ting on the street and have not stopped to do anything for them, then you have no ******* right to comment on this. So what if the cricketer is counting his billions, aren't you too counting your thousands. Just because you have only thousands to count, that doesn't reduce your part in the crime. Neither does your running away to home sweet home thousands of mile away make you any less guilty.

So come forward and admit we are all accomplishes in this monstrosity and get real about this.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I'm sorry buddy but the exact connotation of "expat" as that author is using it, means "anybody who is not indian", and you know it and I know it too. He's too afraid to use specific words like "Americans" or "Australians" or "Europeans" or "Pakistanis" or whoever, so he hides behind the generic word "expat" and everyone knows what he means and nods their head wisely while they read their morning copy of the Hindu.

Well mate in my country we have a word which defines slagging off at entire groups of people / sections of society based on their global origin ... and we have laws against people writing that kind of garbage in newspapers ... you can stick your head in your sand and call it whatever you want mate.

And yep me and my fellow countrymen and most of the rest of the world over the last multiple decades, have given plenty of money to charities like world vision to try and help your suffering and starving countrymen, never seems to make the problem any better though. Wonder where all that money goes :rolleyes: I don't want this to become a generic argument about poverty though - I just included it in my post, to point out that if I was an average Indian thinking of things to write letters to my MP about to try and improve the standard of my society, I would probably have more important things on my mind than kicking out the evil and unsafe "expat" airline captains.

[jimmygill]

I'm sorry buddy but the exact connotation of "expat" as that author is using it, means "anybody who is not indian", and you know it and I know it too. He's too afraid to use specific words like "Americans" or "Australians" or "Europeans" or "Pakistanis" or whoever, so he hides behind the generic word "expat" and everyone knows what he means and nods their head wisely while they read their morning copy of the Hindu.

So you admit that term expat is 'politically correct' and doesn't have racist connotations.

Everyone is free to interpret what he wants of the words, and its a part of freedom of opinion which originates from freedom of speech. But reading 'expats' as 'racist' and claiming the author to be racist is unfair to author.

Why do you think he is afraid of using "American", "OZ", "Pakisani"?
Why don't you think that those are the words which don't explain what he means.
The article has raised a question. Answer it if you can, don't come shouting at the author. I am sure if you write well enough Hindu will publish your comments.



Now with single stroke of generosity you have labeled every Hindu (the newspaper, and not the religions) reader as racist, because in your opinion they all share the same interpretation of word 'expat' as you did for the purpose of this article.

I really don't know which country you belong to, and I don't want to know either, that will save me from dwelling into history.

My stand was simple, if you ever saw a kid defecating by the public road, and if you did not stop to do any thing in your own personal capacity then you cannot blame any one else in the world for this, you are part of it.

And just for your information the average Indian, doesn't write letters to his MP, he has more urgent things to do, like earning a livelihood, like arranging a lavatory. Once he has managed these things he will go and write letters to MPs.

Now some of them are writing letters to MPs, and articles in news papers to further their own interests in phasing out expats. They have learnt it. But you don't have moral authority to tell them about what to write in those letters.

And the kids you see defecating by the roadside will be in few decades flying the 787s, and thats not an exaggeration I have seen it happen with 737s, they don't need any charity.

And if the national laws had not protected local labor more than 30% percent of worlds pilot will come from India.

[sharansiddharth]

kindly read an article,it is a bit twisted by the newspaper but I am sure message is conveyed.

Private aircraft strayed 25 nautical miles over the Arabian Sea
Mumbai radar controllers failed to check errant plane
Mumbai, June 5, DH News Service:

Days before the Mangalore air crash, radar controllers at Mumbai airport misguided a private, single-engine Caravan aircraft letting it stray 25 nautical miles over the Arabian Sea before it flew over the sensitive no-fly zone.


According to DGCA sources, the incident took place on May 4 when, after flying over the sea “two times more than the gliding distance” around 8:45 pm, the aircraft, which was being piloted by Capt Klaus Eckhardt, a foreign national, who had along an Indian co-pilot, it flew over the Parsi “Cone of Silence” (Malabar Hills), the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), Raj Bhavan, other sensitive installations, and VIP residential areas.

It was when the radar controllers realised that the aircraft, owned by the Karnataka-based mining company MSPL Ltd, five of whose officials were onboard, was flying un-noticed in the prohibited area that alarm bells went off. The aircraft was then asked to return to its assigned flight path.

Complaint
An inquiry was initiated on May 6 after co-pilot Capt Siddharth Sharan sent an e-mail complaint to DGCA joint director general A K Chopra and followed it up by writing a letter to Director General of Civil Aviation S N A Zaidi. The inquiry is being headed by an officer of the rank of deputy director stationed in Mumbai.

In his complaint, filed as part of “voluntary report of contravention of Rule 12 of Aircraft Rules, 1937 (flying into prohibited area),” Capt Sharan revealed that the flight took off from Koppal to Mumbai near which approach radar vectored the aircraft for approach for landing on runway 14.

His complaint further said: “Capt Eckhardt has forcibly flown over prohibited area overhead…even after I warned him twice”. The pilot “also went 25 nautical miles away from land. This is a display of utter disregard to rules of air and safety of passengers as Cessna Grand Caravan is supposed to remain within the gliding distance at all times.”
Capt Sharan claimed that the pilot “prevented crew from operating radio and give May Day Call” in accordance with laid down rules. The aircraft not only had no cockpit voice recorder but had no sea survival equipment either.

A May Day Call is an internationally-recognised distress signal used in voice procedure radio communications. A May Day situation might arise when a vessel or aircraft is in grave and imminent danger and requires immediate assistance.

Claiming that the incident “could have been avoided”, Capt Sharan’s complaint indicated that the radar controllers could have been more alert.

What has caused consternation is not just that the radar controllers misguided the aircraft and allowed it to violate the no-fly zone, but that the plane ran the risk of straying further than its gliding distance over the sea because in the event of an engine failure it could have crashed with disastrous consequences for the five passengers and two crew members.

Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) sources, however, said that despite Capt Sharan’s written complaint the enquiry has been progressing at a slow pace, giving rise to suspicions that moves are afoot to deflect the blame from the radar controllers.

THE EX-PAT PILOT HAS ACCEPTED HIS MISTAKE / BLUNDER AFTER HE WAS SHOWN PICTURES OF AIRCRAFT FLYING OVER PROHIBITED AREA.

[TopTup]

Survived it? I survived with my [professional] integrity in tact, and that is all that counted.

Enough of that, allow me to ask a few questions:
Under who's system, who's screening, who's authority, stamp and seal of approval for any pilot in India (expat or local) be granted the privileges and limitations to fly for an Indian carrier?

How did these woeful pilots (expat & local) get checked to line?

How did they even get through the initial screening?

Corruption? Useless HR departments? Greedy managers taking up to $5k USD per month PER EXPAT CAPT? (There's your rhyme & reason for the dates and numbers of expats to keep changing.) Spineless agencies also in on the game?

Ahhhh...!!! Blame the PILOT, but don't dare any of you open your damn eyes to investigate the SYSTEM from which the standards are borne and flourish.

One of my previous posts highlighting the most recent corruption and backhand deals relating to expat contracts was a HUGE insight into this system. And yet NOT ONE person commented on that massive corruption. Blindfolded by xenophobic attitudes to remove expats by any means. Last week the DGCA medical, this week the crashes only involving expats, what next? It'll come....

As a TRI/TRE if I pass a pilot who should (must) be failed and that pilot goes on to be responsible for a crash and killing xxx pax, do I and the licensing authority whom I represent, have blood on my/our hands? HELL YES !.

The truth is there are no doubt some (????) expat pilots in India under dubious scams by playing with log books, falsifying credentials. But under who's watch were these "thieves" able to get the keys to the money box? Are you guys THAT STUPID?

The corruption, those despicable low training standards, etc, etc (said all too often before) AFFECTS EVERYONE!

[viking320]

Let me guess Luke skytoddler you are from the land downunder:ok:

Now working somewhere in the sandpit:ok:

You said a lot about India and many Indians how they live and how they not caring about the poor how bad their politicains are ........etc

I lived in that country of 1.2 billion people.The one thing I seen is regardless of rich,poor,middle etc .... you meet them in the streets they are happy to give you a smile and happy to engage in a conversation
what ever it may be and they are accepting ......

have you had a chance to go to any of their homes?
have you experienced their hospitality?

In your earlier post you wrote some very disgusting comments.

I am 99.9 % you are from australia.
before you go an write these kind of comments on India and Indians
have a good look at your own backyard
How are you treating your own people Aborginees,what would you have done if your so called paradise had 1.2 billion people

come on this is not the 19th century grow up and try to be accepting

Tell me How many I Indian capts you have given jobs in say Qantas,Ansett,Jetstar,Virgin,Tiger etc etc.

For that matter My country men are far better.
so pls come with sensible remarks

[aditya104]

Variety is the spice of life
This is not a debate. This is a stone-throwing war.:}

[jatt_pilot]

In all this mud slinging i couldnt find even a sembelance of a reply to a very straight forward question i asked on this very thread. this discussion seems very mature:ugh:
great going guys, specially all the senior lot who have seen the industry over a period of time expats and locals alike

[COCOCHANEL]

@jimmygill....FYI the term racist/racism can actually used in many ways. There are many politically correct ways of saying things, I find the thread title unfair.

[crazy_bird]

this thread has become very racist, but i do agree with viking, he does sound like an aussie.
or maybe hes a guy whose got a bog grudge against an Indian and is just generalizing and taking it out on all the Indians here, Luke SkyToddler, very mature mate....

[Luke SkyToddler]

Viking320 ... I am not Australian, I've been to Australia once in my life, for a weeks' holiday. So what if I was Australian would that somehow make you feel a bit more self righteous for accusing me of all those unfair things you said?

And you talk about the Australian aborigines??!! What the hell they have to do with an article slagging off expat pilots in India, I do not know where you got that idea from. If you want to talk about them though and what I think, I think the whole world agrees that what went on in the name of European colonization was truly horrible and wrong, whether it was Australia or India or South America or anywhere else. But you can't keep blaming the problems of today on things that went on 200 years ago. So here's an idea to test your theory, why don't you go to Australia some time and go to the outback, go find the worst, poorest, no hope aboriginal settlement you can find, and ask the guys that live there whether they would like to trade places with someone who lives in that slum off the end of 27 in BOM?

You're right on your other guess though Viking I do work in the Gulf, where Indians and Europeans and Africans and every other nationality in the world are all "expats", the airline here treats us equally. And nobody seems to have a problem with it we just get on with our jobs. We have some good and bad "expats" here. We have some good and bad locals here. Nobody here seems to write hysterical newspaper articles blaming "expats" when bad things happen.

If you want to write newspaper articles that attack INDIVIDUAL pilots or airlines or authorities or whatever, for accidents that have occurred, and call them unsafe for India, then that is your right. But blaming whole groups for the actions of a few is offensive and wrong.

Look at how angry Pakistan is this week over the comments of the British PM re terrorism, that was a wrong thing for him to say as well. Nobody can deny that there are some terrorists in Pakistan, just like nobody can deny the majority of Pakistanis are not terrorists they are just normal people trying to live their lives. But it is wrong for a political leader to talk about a whole country like they are "terrorists", and it is wrong for a major newspaper to talk about "expats" like they are all bad and dangerous and use the actions of a few, to paint them all with the same brush.

All you guys attacking me personally, let's talk about the actual newspaper article, lets hear your actual opinion on the article itself and a simple "yes" or "no" do you agree with its position on expat pilots? And if so, why, and if not, why not.

[ShockWave]

If anyone can now remember what this thread is supposed to be about??????

There could well be problems regarding pilots, their experience, and supposed qualifications, especially with the rapid development of aviation within India.

All PILOTS! that is.

But every incident and accident listed earlier was or is under investigation for the actual cause or contributing factors.

If in the extremely unlikely event all of them were solely the result of pilot error, you have not provided the details on which pilot was more at fault and in any case the responsibility is shared by all. Just because a pilot has only 300 hours, he or she is not excused for not calling for a go around or pointing out that the Captain may be landing on a closed runway.

Perhaps if those expats or their co-pilots were not in control and we were faced with the same set of conditions and circumstances the same or worse outcome may have occurred.

I would encourage you to remain suspicious of the expat pilots in your country, but you would be reckless if you stopped there. You must be suspicious of anybody you fly with and everybody else who has anything to do with your safety. That is the only way you will survive in this job.
Even the best trained, most skilled, experienced aviator, mechanic, load controller, re-fueler, ATC controller, dispatcher, flight planner etc etc in the world is capable of killing you under the wrong circumstances. And YES, even YOU!

[RDAVIS42]

I'm looking at a Kingair 200 job in India. Anyone have info on salaries in India for BE20 Captains?

Are working conditions favorable, along with living conditions.

Anyone with experience in charter or corporate flying in India would be welcome.

rdavis42

[DesiPilot]

Lets not make it an issue about the expat pilots. I can give you plenty of examples where an Indian pilot made the mistake. Here are a few

1) Go air Captain went off the runway at Cochin airport in 2007
2) JetLite Captain had a tail strike while taking off from Mumbai and continued to CCU where the procedure says not to pressurise the aircraft.
3) Kingfisher Captain applied brakes while being pushed back, A321 became unusable.
4) Indian Airlines Captain was sleeping on a flight from JAI to BOM and overflew half way to GOI before they returned back to BBB.

So let's not play the blame game and try to find out why an accident/incident took place rather than who was at control.

May it is time for the DGCA to update its FDTL, they tried and came up with a new one but switched back to old FDTL when they came under pressure from the airlines. May be these incidents are taking place due to stress/fatigue. By the way most of the guys in the rostering do not understand fatigue, they will just mark it call in sick if you tell them that you are fatigued.

All the expats working in India are screened by Indian examiners. They have to go through sim checks followed by route checks before they are cleared for on line operations. May be it is the system that can be blamed.

Luke rightfully said, there are expats working all over the world. When an accident/incident takes place the agencies look for the cause of the accident and not the colour/color of the person flying the plane.

Oh before you start wondering, yes, I am an Indian. I have flown in Indian airspace both as an FO and a Captain and now I am also working as a so called expat.

Kicking the expats out of India is not a solution, with time their numbers will go down. So I think it is time to stop blaming the expats and it is time to find out the real cause of those incident/accidents.

[Dagar]

Hey LUKE SKY PODDLER or TODDLER or whatever,I have given money to charities to feed your starving and homeless people and lets not forget incase you are flying as an EXPAT in India,it is the Indians who are feeding you,your family and paying your bills.Kindly show some respect

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dagar if you use that tiny brain of yours to read the thread properly you will notice that I am paid by Arabs not Indians ... and your countrymen outnumber mine here by about 1000 to 1, I can assure you.

So anyway what a surprise it looks to me like you are another one who wants to insult me without actually discussing the original article that was posted ... if you want to talk about respect then why don't you go and read the original poster and tell me where is the respect shown from that guy to the vast number of highly qualified, safe and respectable EXPAT pilots in your country.

If you can't do that then don't sit there and tell me or any other expats that we should show you one :mad: worth of respect, because we are the ones who have been insulted here, not you. You want respect you have to earn it first and give it to others when it's due.

Then when you have done that, come back here with a detailed, point by point, rebuttal of anything I have said and why you disagree with it ... otherwise I really dont have anything further to say to you.

[B737NG]

It would be a better start if the total number of incidents would have been shown and then compared in how many where ExPat-Pilots involved. Then everybody would be able to compare and make some assumptions.

As there are only Expat-Pilots mishaps where shown at the beginning I cannot ignore the bad smell of discrimination. Now alot of synergy is used to defend the "No discrimination" thread instead of using the brainpower to find solutions to prevent from repeating such incidents. Sad.....

Fly safe and land happy

NG

[A-3TWENTY]

They don`t mention the incidents the indians have , but sure there are many too.
But since the article only speaks about foreigners...

I can imagine the S%&/ it is to fly live and fly in India...

I never apply to that latter bin. I`m not a fly.

[411A]

A pilot's nationality does not determine his skills, guys!
I see you haven't been in airline flying for very long.
I watched first hand the number of Indian nationals dismissed at one SE Asian airline some years ago (almost to the total exclusion of others), for specifically two reasons....
Lack of basic flying skills.
Poor attitudes.
Both need to go together to produce a proficient and safe airline pilot.

I would have a suggestion for the Indian DGCA, have all the expat pilots dismissed, and watch for the number of increased fatal accidents.
In this way, the EU can include Indian air carriers in the EU blacklist and the FAA can brand the country as Category Two.

It has been often stated in the past that the only way to fly to India, is to fly over, on the way to somewhere else.

[cyrilroy21]

@411A

Let me guess....

All those Indian pilots before joining the this particular SE Asian airline....
( I am guessing Singapore Airlines )

Were all trained by either Air India or Indian Airlines....:hmm:

Am I right ?

[CaptGodfather]

I really don't understand why we Indians think that way for expats.
Most of the fresh CPL holders in India have done their training abroad from where these expats come from.
There have been incidents which I have heard about where some of Indians have done ****z while training caused by language/accent misunderstanding.

Indian aviation industry falls short of Captains and here these expats fulfill the requirement and we should respect and appreciate it.

[411A]

Were all trained by either Air India or Indian Airlines....
Am I right ?

Half right.
Most of the pilots from the aforementioned were Captains (early retirees).
The others were locally based First Officers, on which the company had spent a good deal of time and funding, only to find out that many of them were not worth a hill of beans.
The primary problem was...poor attitude.
With a poor attitude, good flying skills are very hard to develop.

[cyrilroy21]

Not surprised

Knowing Air India all training record were most probably pencil whipped...:hmm:

Also back then all you needed was single engine CPL without an Instrument or multi engine rating to join them :eek:

[DJ Flyboy]

This debate is absolutely worthless..its wrong to say that all exapats are bad pilots or that all inidains are bad pilots. Most if them are qualified but then there are rotten apples everywhere.

The standards in india arnt great..i have seen training institutes in canada and india..and was surprised to find how pathetic the conditions are here..i had to do some recency flying here and was shocked to find out the instructor didnt know the correct stalling speed!! walk around was unheard of and nobody knew how to do weight and balance. All XC solo flights were actually duals..logged as solos. Overlogging was encouraged. Favouritism was rampant. The only thing good about the school was its maintainance which was better than anywhere in canada. The confidence level of the students was zero in india. I tried correcting the instructor when he was telling me something but ended up hurting his ego and he refused to fly with me calling me names. No critical thinking is encouraged here..just mug up and spit it out.

Expat pilots have alot to offer india and we should pick up knowledge and skills from them..sooner or later they will be replaced..but right now they are required.

Im a low time pilot from india and i should technically hate all the expats but i dont..i actually hate all those FOs who dont want to take command coz they are not confident enough (most of them trained in india).:ugh:

But a word to expats..no need to curse india..all the west countries i have been to are quite racist..again not every person..but some of them. Plus you are probably working in India coz you didnt get a good enuough job in your own country and have no moral right to say anything against inida or any other country you are working in.
Besides if an Indian pilot was involved in a major crash in your country..im sure the press would have reacted in the same way. Coz the fact is all the countries of the west are extremely paranoid..i im telling you this based on my personal exp.

So i request everybody to stop this debate right here before any more people get angry and call each other names.

Peace:O
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCLOSEDxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[rdr]

a mature and well thought out post, DJ Flyboy.
just one point though. a pilot who has the experiance of flying in several different countries, weather patterns, terrain, atc's....etc, is definitely more complete than one in his own backyard, occasionally visiting foreign cities.


its a pity that garbage like alphabravocharlie, who is possibly a marginal pilot, exist in this profession and start posts like this.

in any profession, if you are top drawer, you dont need to advertise. but you know something is not right, when to cover your own defiencies, you try to pull others down by virtue of race, nationality, sex, colour, or statistics.

[chairwrecker]

i have many friends from india who are of high intellect and unquestioned integrity. none of them will ever start a thread as blatantly stupid as this: can the sidestick see the color of your skin? :mad: