To: Air Arabia pilots. From: UAE ACC [Archive]

kit330

30th Jun 2010, 07:35

Well Bluesky: thy holy gods of the sky should then know that by the time we are transferred to YOUR skies we "air arabia" are usually around FL270; at that altitude when you ask us to slow down to a ridiculous speed AND then want us to take up a heading 90deg off our track to omsj JUST so that an EK a/c which is 20nm behind can fly ahead of us, just makes no sense(even if the EK a/c is a 777,cos at the level both a/c's speed are going to be the same....not rocket science here either!!!!) that's why it puzzles most of us and when we say our destination is shj and NOT dxb, we are being sarcastic here. we all know both airports are side by side but telling the a/c ahead by a long way to slow down and vectored way off its track to accommadate another thats way behind just makes no sense, especially when we know shj has no delays and the moment we change over to dxb app,they'll tell us to speed up again n give us direct to final fix!!!!! Maybe instead of telling us how to read the jepp's, you shld learn to vector a/c's properly and start speaking to one another(btwn uae and dxb app) then will you not get questions like you want us to descend now?? and just to let you know when you vector us off our STAR's there is no requirement to be back to 250kts/13000'...some of u guys insist on this...once again Not rocket science here...couple of times I've been asked to immediately slow down frm 300kts to 220kts AND expedite my descend And given a mouth full for not doing so...dear MR.ATC...this is a jet a/c...it can do one thing at a time...either slow down or expedite descend NOT both at the SAME time...not rocket science again.......Oh yes and abt the hold, read my statement above again abt talking to one another...I've been in that situation...being ask to hold by UAE, when speaking to dxb and shj atc they told us there's no delays for shj AND yet UAE insist on making us hold for no reason(probably just because there's delays in dxb???)...at the end we have to divert for no reason....So please before you vent your frustrations about us, try to understand our position here....stop treating us like second class citizens in the air and we'll stop being sarcastic to you....

PS: ferris you must be atc too...remember all the times when a/c's try calling you guys a couple of times with no reply and finally when we get a reply frm ATC... it's standby I'm busy...well mate their's always two sides to a coin...

explai9

30th Jun 2010, 08:21

@BlueSkye...you really made a F**l of yourself did you not :ouch:

Jet aircrafts cannot slow down to 220 kts and then expedite descent! that too from FL270! It really aint any rocket science you know...:ugh:

ATC and pilots usually help each other out...well CRM aint your forte I guess....

777-200LR

30th Jun 2010, 08:25

UAE and Dubai are in desperate need of better coordination. Especially when the day EK have all their A380s, A350s and 777s, FD have got all their 58 or so 738s, and Air Arabia got all their A320s. That being said, Dubai do a pretty good job with what's thrown at them by UAE ACC.
As for all the Air Arabia drivers, even though SHJ belongs to you, the skies above don't..

BlueSkye

30th Jun 2010, 09:17

One reply at a time.

explai9: Please remove your head from your behind because your vision will greatly improve.

Done.

Good.

Now read my post again and please point out to me where I said that aircraft should maintain a high rate of descent with a slow speed. I implore you to show me that part. I'm practically begging. True to form you only scanned the post, hopped on kit330's bandwagon and shot your mouth off on something that was never said.

Rather keep your trap shut and let people think you are stupid than opening it up and removing all doubt. Next time read the damn post first. F**l.

kitt330: I'll respond later. Have to go.

Desert Budgie

30th Jun 2010, 10:26

Question about the 'Zig Zag One' arrival.

When flying a turboprop into DXB, we get vectors left and right and speed restrictions for spacing.

'Turn left 070'
'Turn right 180'
'Slow 180 KTS'

Now I could understand if we have a jet on our tail, but this is almost never the case. That jet is 30+ miles behind us. We spend so much time turning left and right and slowing down we would have been on the ground by the time the jet eventually flies past us. And every time without fail, that jet we spent so much time trying to accomodate is flying so slowly by the time it reaches the coast we end up slowing down to accomodate it. Every time.

Yesterday for example, we slowed to 180 kts over 100NM out to accomodate EK 30 who was yet to be realeased by Tehran. By the time we were handed to DXB approach we caught up with him, had to slow down and had to slow further on final to maintain 5 NM seperation.

As was discussed, better communication between DXB and UAE is required. But rather than asking the TP guys to slow down at 100 NM, why not ask for an early descent. From 100 NM out at FL190 a turboprop can maintain 240 kts all the way down. And the turboprop can maintain that speed for much longer than any jet.

Now a couple of the UAE guys ARE accomodating, so don't think that this is an attack on everyone. But please let your colleagues know that a turboprop in the descent isn't just a shed getting in everyones way. The unnessesary 'Zig Zag One' arrival drives me up the wall!

Cheers

DB :ok:

ATCO1969

30th Jun 2010, 10:40

Although I don't share the blunt views of BS, what all pilots flying into DXB must understand is that DESDI or BUBIN are the only inbound points for both Sharjah and Dubai (add to that Jebel Ali now). We at ACC are given a flow rate by APP (10,15,20nm's etc.) to which we must comply and sequence traffic accordingly.

It DOESN"T MATTER to which airport you are flying, DESDI or BUBIN is the "common rwy" on which you all must "land".

Sometimes, when workload permits, we may coordinate parallel tracks inbound, but this is the exception, which has now become expected.

'69

kit330

30th Jun 2010, 10:50

777-200: 1st of all l never said the sky abv belongs to anyone, infact that's one of points l was trying to make...

Desert b: l agree wt you a million %..... atc shld understand it's not the size of the a/c( unless for wake) that counts below FL200... all a/c's are going to be abt the same speed at this time...infact the smaller one's(tprop) are gonna be able to keep max speed till abt 2-4nm frm touchdown...

Finally, with the airspace dubai has to control n de number of a/c's, l have to say dxb app does a brilliant job but l surely can't say the same for uae acc....especially for arriving a/c's frm mct fir....

White Knight

30th Jun 2010, 11:59

Oi Kit - learn to type, spell and use grammar! You appear to have the literacy capability of a baboon.. I really can't understand the garbage you have just posted:ugh::ugh::ugh:

ATCO1962

30th Jun 2010, 12:01

Ignorance is a wonderful thing, chaps. Every night shift, I have to watch scores of aircraft just from the MCT FIR head towards the northern and (increasingly) the southern UAE airfields at the same time to satisfy the hubbing strategy of the various airlines. That's just from our side of the UAE. And you know what, I feel sorry. I feel sorry for us because we have no effective flow control measurements in place, I feel sorry for UAE because of the restrictions that are placed on them because of the sheer weight of numbers heading their way with no real flow control in place and I feel sorry for all the pilots who get dizzy spinning around wasting precious fuel because of the silly ambitions of several huge airlines who don't self police by spreading out their movements. I know, scheduling is complicated but there are huge orders for more planes in this neck of the woods and we can't keep up. Please understand that we don't just put restrictions on you because we can. Of course, there are varying standards in the centre; we're all not the same. Even the best make errors of judgement or are simply doing what looks easiest to them in sometimes desperate circumstances. Please bear with us; we are getting overwhelmed with traffic.

And every ATCO is trained not to "expedite descent/slow down". If you get that instruction, it's because, in the heat of battle, the controller has usually forgotten and will be kicking himself the moment those words come out of his mouth.

We're in this together, lads and lasses. Let's work together and try to understand each others difficulties. Safe flying.

BDD

30th Jun 2010, 12:58

We're in this together, lads and lasses. Let's work together and try to understand each others difficulties. Safe flying.

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!!:D

kit330

30th Jun 2010, 13:15

White Knight: Not everyone speaks de queen's english...and I dont think I was sitting for an english exam here...l think my comments were written well enough to be understood by anyone with some common sense....maybe you lack some..agreed it may not be grammatically correct n wt lots of spelling errors but l think with very little grey matter up there, one would be able to understand what l'd written.....

ATCO69/62: both your comments are right and l accept them. the point l was trying to make to bluesky was...not only you guys have your plates full. before he goes off rantting abt small stuff, he shld look into de mirror 1st....not all of us sit around drinking coffee,reading newspapers n chatting up de ladies...we get as frustrated with what is to us...ridiculous instructions by ATC, just as he is frustrated with our constant whinning... I think I've been pretty civil here...in not commenting abt ATC's down fall (cos I understand your restrictions too)(I do read the ATC forums too) but I can't keep quiet when he goes off like that without trying to consider our situation....why shld I descend earlier than I have to; knowing I'm going to be vectored further away frm where Im going anyhow.... I see no harm in anyone getting further clarification on any instruction given by anyone.....

MrMachfivepointfive

30th Jun 2010, 13:17

Guys,
The scheduling guys are not stupid. They are just doing their job very efficiently. If your business model is from anywhwere to everywhere with 1stop: DXB - there are just two sweet spots in a 24 hour period when the East and West traffic flows marry up - considering time zones and airport curfews. So better plan for the 200 odd airplanes on order to join the fray at exactly the same times.

Eye off the ball

30th Jun 2010, 13:36

kit330,

I have some common sense and I too cannot understand the drivel you post. I know English isn't your first language but, for heaven's sake, make an effort.

Why post on an english speaking forum if you are going to write in incoherent riddles?

Your point, if there is one, is lost amongst all the vowel-less nonsense.

I know that you'll disagree with me; even your response to the last poster questioning your english was gibberish.

High 6

30th Jun 2010, 14:49

"And you know what, I feel sorry. I feel sorry for us because we have no effective flow control measurements in place"... ATCO1962

If there is is a possible solution to this problem as identified by our colleagues in ATC... is there anything being done about it and how effective would it be?

I find it a bit demotivating when I make an effort to reduce fuel and time en route with optimum level planning, direct tracking etc... only to lose it all when I get on the home stretch, due to the inherent inefficiencies of the current system.

Having said that, I have on occasion had some magnificent vectors as well that really helped, but to be honest the opposite is unfortunately more the norm.

Sataybox

30th Jun 2010, 17:03

When you are given a descent clearance or a speed restriction and the words "when ready" or "pilot's discretion"

Question: What is the correct JAR (or other regulatory body) RT phraseology for a clearance to descend when the pilot is ready? You've quoted two versions; is either of them 100% correct? If not, then you're also contributing to the problem.

So much bad RT in this part of the world and I blame the Americans and all the weak-minded who want to sound like them:

"Okay, understand cleared blah blah...."
"Checkin in......"
"0534 comin down..."
"You have a good day now...."
Etc.

While you're on the soapbox, BS, please address those ****wits who commit this crime:

"Air Arabia 123 descend to FL150."

*silence*

"Air Arabia 123 descend to FL150."

*silence*

"Air Arabia 123, UAE, do you copy???"

"Go ahead, Air Arabia 123."

GOD that ****s me to listen to. And why do they put the callsign at the end when it's not a readback??? The indians do it all the time too.

I feel better now.......

PS: As for vectors, I always carry extra fuel and don't care a bit about what happens on an average night.

PS:

there are just two sweet spots in a 24 hour period when the East and West traffic flows marry up - considering time zones and airport curfews.

That's bullsh!t but I'm out of time.

Sataybox

30th Jun 2010, 17:05

By the way, kit330 I agree - your post is drivel!

:p

BlueSkye

30th Jun 2010, 19:46

My my my, what a slugfest this has become. I step out for a short while and look what happens. Anyhoo...

Sataybox: "When ready" is 100% ICAO.

Mach5.5: Bring the 200 aircraft, but don't spit your dummy when you land at Al Ain for the fourth time after a fuel diversion. Reminder: "Low on fuel" means nothing. It's Pan or Mayday.

kit330: Cry me a friggin river. You so poignantly ask why you should descend earlier than you have to. Well, last time I checked ATC instructions was not something that's open for discussion. Just because the rest of the world has gone all bunny hugging and PC doesn't mean that ATC has gone that route as well. An instruction is still that. It sure as $hit is not Air Traffic Discussion.

And frankly, I don't give a rat's posterior how ridiculous those instructions are to you. Your opinion on those instructions is what I say it is. I know it irks you to no end but there is sweet all you can do about it, just suck it up. It might come as a shock to you but no ATC in the world (that I know of) will ever give a clearance without a reason. There is always a reason. And no, I'm not going to discuss that reason with you or anyone else for that matter. Therefore, next time you hear : "Arabia 666, descend FL150", respond with "Arabia 666, descending FL150".

Deep breath and finally. All pilots need to understand that this whole ATC business is nothing personal. If you have issues with being told what to do, I suggest you correspond with your local ICAO rep and ask him to put the wheels in motion towards ATD. Failing that, I suggest you read it back and comply.

NG_Kaptain

30th Jun 2010, 21:09

My philosophy is keep transmissions to a minimum, comply with clearances and use proper RT phraseology. This airspace is getting very crowded and inattention to calls doesn't help. It is a real challenge flying in to the region and it does nobody any good to have extraneous calls.
One of my pet peeves is how some of our neighbours to the east have to answer each call with "confirm", eg "Subcontinent 123 contact so and so centre on 123.7" and they almost always answer "Sub 123 freq 123.7 confirm" Leads to multiple unnecessary calls.
And as a professional forum we don't need "text speak". This is for kit 330.

loc22550

1st Jul 2010, 05:06

There is indeed sometime lack of discipline when it comes to radio transmission in this area...:
Maybe we should try to stick to the following golden rules..:

-LISTEN a few second BEFORE you transmit expecially when you switch to another frequency!(we are not alone in the sky).
-CALL sign FIRST when you ask for a clearance or anything to ATC.
-CALL sign at the end of the transmission when you read back a Clearance.
-BE CONCISE when you talk!
-Stick to Standard phraseology.
-Read back the Clearance only NOT the informations! (not need to read back the wind or such a think...they are NOT clearance!).
-AVOID such " DESCENT 280!" When you heard that without using the word "FLIGHT LEVEL" you just wonder if the guy is gone descent to FL280 or to FL 080...?

TWRFLWR

1st Jul 2010, 06:38

I work with the Air Arabia pilots every day, as well, and I have found that they are very professional and consistently follow instructions without question, so maybe there's some disconnect in communication where you're concerned. It disappoints me to see this "US v THEM" mentality and ultimately we are here to help eachother out and ensure we do it safely.

Yes, I've had my days when I have just wanted to rip a pilot's head off, and I'm sure there have been days where they've felt the same of me...we all have our bad days. At the end of the day, if you try to keep an optimistic attitude, keep an open line of communication (and use a degree of patience, especially with new pilots..we can all tell who those are...), politely question why pilot's may be confused by your request, and remember that we are here to provide a service and provide it well, you may find your experiences with all flyers (not just Air Arabia pilots) much more pleasant. Don't forget that some Air Arabia pilots have been flying much longer than some Emirates, Etihad, etc pilots. There seemed to be an underlying assumption that they're not as experienced....just food for thought.

Not here to argue, just here to maybe help you see these types of situations differently and react more positively in the future.:)

ferris

1st Jul 2010, 07:22

I know this is going to sound a little "do as I say, not as I do", but RE; listening out- we are often working one-up. Pilots never are (trainers with cadets excl. :p ). This is one of the last places in the world where controllers work without co-ords in such a busy environment. All the centres in the area are constantly adding staff, but it's eternal catch-up. On that note; expect more restrictive ATM procedures (level caps/descent requirements etc etc). The days of coming back from wherever and getting unrestricted descents, free speed etc are long gone out here. It's just going to get worse and worse.
As far as the gripes about sequences: You guys look at the one ahead, maybe the one behind, and scratch your head at whats being done to you. We look at all 30 of you in the sequence. If you truly want to understand, then make an appointment to go to your centre and look. If you can't be bothered, then just don't sweat it accept that there is rhyme and reason. Second-guessing without any real understanding is not only counter-productive, it's unprofessional.

divingduck

1st Jul 2010, 09:06

dustyprops

1st Jul 2010, 09:44

So what we're saying in a nutshell is this -

i) airspace around here too busy, and atc do the best they can given the amount of airplanes trying to get in.

ii) Air Arabia are cr@p

Got it I think :E

vaschandi

1st Jul 2010, 12:24

LOC 22550

"Call sign at the end of the transmission when you read back a clearance"

From which source did you get that?

Canoehead

1st Jul 2010, 15:17

Couple of points:

- Been here three years, no problems with Air Arabia, nice bunch to work with, actually.

- Not correct to say that Desdi and Bubin are the only way in. DXB TCU will constantly tell UAE Center to send SHJ traffic 'north of track'. However, UAE guys will say that once aircraft are in the holds, it becomes too difficult to vector SHJ traffic north of the hold. Therefore, SHJ traffic holds, due to capacity problems at DXB. Go figure.

- Why we don't have an entry point to SHJ, like, say RAK, or wherever, is way beyond me.

- We are stuck with procedures from the 1970's. And I won't tell you why that won't change.

- Finally, just remember that the angry and vitriolic comments you read in this thread are not representative of the majority. I guess Pprune is as good a tool for venting as any, although I tend to prefer single malt.

Gulfstreamaviator

1st Jul 2010, 17:20

RAK has entry point....???

glf

Big Footer

1st Jul 2010, 22:31

BlueSkye (http://www.pprune.org/members/152774-blueskye) ,

I don't know which is more tragic your post or you attitude , I suggest that you at least show some RESPECT before baffling your way through with your sarcastic remarks . next time try to be more professional .

Schibulsky

2nd Jul 2010, 00:57

Respect???
The ATCO's job is NOT to take care of pilots overblown egos...so take his advice and SUCK IT UP DUDE!:E
His main point was that he wants to keep the freq clean of all the whining and useless discussions to do his actual job. That sounds pretty professional to me!:ok:

auh_to_auh

2nd Jul 2010, 03:39

Was with you all the way "Blue Skye", but you lost me on your last post.
It seems you have developed the "I'm God" syndrome.

Even though we are not ATC's most competent pilots would understand why a specific instruction is given. Sometimes they don't make sense but what the heck we follow them anyway.

As far as the lack of communication between UAE and local approach controllers is concerned, well I guess the local habits have crept in (left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing), on many occasions going in to AUH have been told to conform with 250Kt/-13000' by UAE, only to have both cancelled when transfered to Approach.

AUH

Big Footer

3rd Jul 2010, 14:42

Schibulsky (http://www.pprune.org/members/173280-schibulsky)

Listen, I am sorry for getting so upset, but You are a long way from home .

Vulgar language is universally found to be offensive in professional environments.

Let me Quote your words :

"His main point was that he wants to keep the freq clean of all the whining and useless discussions to do his actual job. That sounds pretty professional to me "

Are you for real !!!?"

Schibulsky

3rd Jul 2010, 18:17

Here is what the dictionary says:
suck it up (slang) : to make the effort required to do or deal with something difficult or unpleasant
NOT marked vulgar!
So whats your point?

Blue Sky might have used some "strong language":) to make his point :eek:

Vulgar language is universally found to be offensive in professional environments. That might be true for Vatikan Airlines but not for the aviation I know for 25 years :}

So why do YOU think he wants the whining and discussions to stop?
A. because he feels like god (like somebody suggested)
B. so he can have more time for his coffee and cigarettes
C. to do his f:mad:g job

Anyway this whole thread again shows how hard it is for somebody flying high in his shiny silver tube to accept that there is somebody who tells him what to do...

mensaboy

3rd Jul 2010, 20:11

It IS rocket science if you were not properly taught correct RT early in your career.

Airlines don't teach proper RT and trainers are more concerned with other things to point out RT deficiencies in new recruits. Therefore many pilots have to learn things by osmosis. They learn nuances by listening to other pilots and now that many pilots make the wrong RT calls, it is no wonder that readbacks and clearances are becoming more of an issue. This is in spite of the fact that radios are so much better than in the past.

Many pilots at my airline don't even make the correct altitude callouts in the cockpit and they are probably the most important calls we make.

Blue, I agree with most of what you posted but even YOU got something wrong and I quote. ''air arabia descending FL150''. That is incorrect because the response should be ''descend FL150, air arabia.'' There are reasons for the correct order of a readback clearance.
#1 ATC (who are human beings) will comprehend and decipher between correct and incorrect readbacks, when the reply is in the same order as the original clearance and it is standard

There are only a few instances when reading back your call sign first is acceptable. For example, the on-ground airways clearance or the ''air arabia 666 is established on the localizer'' radio call. Other than that, your call sign comes at the end of your transmission. That is an ICAO, JAR, FAA rule.

Kit, U must stop typing, dis and dat and watever you conjure up. TYPE OUT THE WORDS! otherwise no one will lend credibility to your posts. From my experience, the vast majority of people who use the language of 13 year old girls, have the same intelligence.

As for the Americans, it is not their fault that their RT is so differrent. They come from what they know and YOU or I would be exactly the same if we spent most of our careers flying in an isolated environment. Most of the Yanks are at least good guys with good attitudes and abilities, in spite of their sometimes bizarre RT calls.

Rule#1 read back clearances in the same order as they were given.

Rule#2 your call sign is YOUR CALL SIGN and it is to be given at the end of a readback. It is NOT Emiratie 666 or Emirates aaahhhhh 666, it's ''Emirates 666''. Why is that so difficult for some pilots?

Rule#3 cut out the BS. ''Hello, this is the Emirates 666 checking in with you''. The rules dictate that the only call is, ''Bahrain control, Emirates 666, FL350''
Brits...... Hello, em, errrr,
Yanks.... OK AHHH, yes sir, undershtand cleared
Canucks.... Rog that
Indians.... Roger cleared, Roger that, Roger ANYTHING (aside from never even listening out before making an RT call)
SA... ''A very good day to you!'' Not just a good day but a very good day! And TO YOU. who the hell else are you talking to?

Rule#4 RT is not a discussion. ''This IS THE Emirates 66'' is unacceptable. ''Checkin in with you'' is unacceptable. ''OK, ah undershtand cleared...'' is unacceptable.

Rule #5 ''SIR'' should never be included in aviation RT, simple as that. The Atlas boys might want to reread that rule because they seem to think they are gaining some favor by saying Sir everytime they speak to ATC.

Rule#6 ''Cleared DOWN to......'' is not a proper RT. Aside from just being wrong it is potentially dangerous because ''DOWN TO'' might be misconstrued as '' DOWN TWO''.

Even minor deviations are potentially hazardous. I don't care one way or another what the standard terminology is, as long as everyone uses it. Non-standard RT causes incidents and accidents and that is a proven fact. Keep in mind that English is not the first language of many pilots or ATC, so therefore it is even more critical in some regions for every one to use standard RT.

By the way, if you are so overloaded that you can't remember your own callsign, then write it down on a piece of paper and stick it somewhere in your line of sight. ''Emirates aahhhhh'' is just embarassing.

145qrh

3rd Jul 2010, 22:20

As an old instructor said to me once" never call ATC sir, it will only give them
delusions of adequacy ". :E

Bring Back The Biff

4th Jul 2010, 03:04

Mensaboy, regarding Rule#6...

I have noticed over the last six months or so ATC in a number of countries are using the word 'to' in their altitude clearances.

I thought that had been ditched years ago in the aftermath of an accident/incident caused by a "descend two two thousand" being interepreted as "descend to 2 thousand" type of thing.

So incensed, I was forced to actually look it up in the ICAO phraseology - and it is according to them - correct.

The wheel keeps turning...

Sciolistes

4th Jul 2010, 04:23

mensaboy,
There are only a few instances when reading back your call sign first is acceptable. For example, the on-ground airways clearance or the ''air arabia 666 is established on the localizer'' radio call. Other than that, your call sign comes at the end of your transmission. That is an ICAO, JAR, FAA rule.
The ICAO and CAP413 docs all say that the callsign comes last for all readbacks.

Bring Back The Biff,
I think you'll find it in UK CAP413 manual, but it wasn't to remove the "to", it was to add "altitude" prefix for all altitude clearances. Also other stuff like "degrees" suffix for all headings ending in zero so they're less likely to be confused with flight levels.

White Knight

4th Jul 2010, 05:01

Except Sciolistes, calling established on the localiser is not the same as reading back "cleared to establish Loc xx Emirates 666" (To use Mensaboy's example - and I have to say I pretty much agree with that long post of yours Mensa....)

Radar Pete

4th Jul 2010, 09:37

The best advice I heard recently was to "name your numbers" to avoid any misconception, i.e. the prefix - heading, altitude, level, callsign etc before any number. As long as the number has a name then the word 'to' cannot be misconstrued. Also consider that 'descend 10 000 feet' without the prefix 'altitude' can either mean descend a total of 10 000 feet or descend to the altitude of 10 000 feet. In reality, someone at FL280 given the instruction to descend 10 000 feet could descend to FL180??

ManaAdaSystem

4th Jul 2010, 11:09

And how many times during your career have you been told by ATC to descend X thousand feet?

Big Footer

4th Jul 2010, 11:10

Schibulsky (http://www.pprune.org/members/173280-schibulsky)

:ok: welcome to our world

Spoogie

4th Jul 2010, 18:00

I fly for Air Arabia and understand what the original post was meant to accomplish! You may have had G9 flights that pissed you off recently or constantly but we are all working together here. Let us try to find a way to get along! We rely on your professionalism to keep us safe in the crowded airspace in which we operate and without airplanes to control, your professional experience would be of no use. So if you are trying to make a point just say...in a polite way ..." descend and maintain FL270 means "descend now", as opposed to "when ready" ..descend and maintain FL270.

If the UAE ACC or any other for that matter has a problem with G9, then have them make a formal complaint to the company so that internal memos may be sent to remind the pilots of their responsibility to understand and comply with ATC instructions.

G9 and most other airlines are all trying to save fuel to operate more efficiently, so that not only you but your family and friends may be offered more competitive prices!

I must admit however, that our company drills into the flight department that we must fly as efficiently as we can!!! This has lead to constant requests for strait in approaches and these repeated questions about descent clearances!

So I suggest that you take up the matter with the powers that be:ok:

mensaboy

4th Jul 2010, 18:43

Stating that you are established on the localizer is NOT a readback, therefore it is acceptable.
Reading back an 'on ground' airways clearance starting with your callsign, might not technically be correct but isn't it reasonable to start off with ''Etihad 141 is cleared to Mumbia via...''.

As far as Fife and Niner are concerned, they are remnants from past generations when VHF was not so good and HF was more prevalent. The relevant documents should be changed to reflect current radio capabilities.

Cleared ''Descend to'' is not a wrong ATC call because pilots and ATC are supposed to say either, FEET or FLIGHT LEVEL. Since flight levels always have their base below 20,000 feet, then a ''cleared climb to'' or a ''cleared descend to''.....should not be a problem if everyone always included.... Flight Level or Altitude (feet is the other option below transition altitude)

The OMA clearly states that either Feet or FL is to be included in all altitude readbacks.

I know that some pilots will think this whole discussion about proper RT is a bit pedantic but it is not. From my experiences, pilots who don't follow proper RT are also more inclined to not follow SOP's are also usually the least competent, just my opinion though.

Non-standard RT was the biggest reason that so many American pilots were unfairly lumped into a bad category. Agreeably, many US pilots were ****e on the radio, but fly with an American who does not take offence when this deficiency is pointed out and I guarantee they will be one of the best colleagues you could have on the flight deck.

Communication is one of the most important aspects of our job and since we don't 'see' ATC, we lose up to 50% of the clues and signals necessary to properly determine what is being said. That is why STANDARD RT is so important.

India is the best example (followed by Africa), which clearly demonstrates that when improper RT procedures are common, safety is reduced.

Modhesh

4th Jul 2010, 18:58

As far as Fife and Niner are concerned, they are remnants from past generations when VHF was not so good and HF was more prevalent. The relevant documents should be changed to reflect current radio capabilities.

Dear Mensaboy,
You can't pick and choose which parts of standard RT you like and don't like.
Either you do it correctly all the time or you don't.

That is why STANDARD RT is so important.

Is it not?

BlueSkye

4th Jul 2010, 19:24

Spoogie. Why on earth would I want to say "descend and maintain". As opposed to what? Descend and don't maintain? What's wrong with "descend FL270"? Simple, easy to understand. Just like ICAO intended when they wrote the manual. Salvation lies in Ch 12.3. A descend clearance is no different from a climb, speed, land, take-off etc. clearance. So why the need to question it? Do you question a climb instruction?

You also bring up a disturbing point that needs addressing. And please correct me if I'm wrong.

to remind the pilots of their responsibility to comply with ATC instructions

Are you saying that you need to be reminded by your company to act like a professional aviator? That before you will act like a professional I must first file a complaint? Please say it ain't so.

Auh_to_auh. Intention wasn't to come across God-like, it was just 20 years of frustration with the almost purposeful disregard for standard r/t.

Reminder: In-shallah is NOT standard r/t.

Nearly forgot to add: Use your fu...ng callsign!!!!! Anywhere in the transmission. Beginning, middle, end. Just fu...ng use it.

Spoogie

4th Jul 2010, 22:19

You are correct...I used the wrong terminology! "Descend FL270...e.g" is enough and all that is really required. But to avoid threads like this I only wanted to suggest ways to avoid a controller like yourself becoming annoyed and waisting your precious time sitting on PPrune.

We are all professional people! We don't need to be reminded by the company to act professional. Maybe there are guys who don't always act that way.

Bringing the company into this, was only to highlight the fact G9 tries several strategies to save fuel and delayed descent would be one of them. So I would think the act of questioning for delayed descent comes from training received by the company. Being at Enasa at FL270 en-route to OMSJ puts us way below an economical profile.

I am not arguing with the fact you are trying to make, I am just saying, there are "professional" ways we can communicate with each other and maybe instead of blowing up on PPrune we could have dialogue or send a document to someone who can pass this message to the entire pilot body to avoid future problems!
:ok:

Dixons Cider

5th Jul 2010, 10:24

As an old instructor said to me once" never call ATC sir, it will only give them
delusions of adequacy ".

:D:D Pure gold, sums up this thread completely.

Babylon

5th Jul 2010, 12:57

In two occasions I was vectored for final to land in Dubai even though my distention was Sharjha and told air traffic controller so three times .So no bodies perfect we all make mistakes .Having said that I can understand the frustration of the controllers as some pilots have not got a clue when it comes to proper Rt or understanding instructions .

mensaboy

5th Jul 2010, 16:10

I agree Modesh, we should not pick and choose..... but FIFE AND NINER are not a particularly bad issue. (The Germans seem to understand that nine is not NO, nowadays, haha.)

You gotta pick your battles.
Not saying ''CONTROL'' or more suitably ''Bahrain'' Control on the initial call is wrong. It is clearly written that on the first call you say the controlling agency but on subsequent calls, a pilots is only required to say.... Approach, Tower or Ground for example. And once again there is a reason for this rule. It is because it ALERTS ATC that an aircraft is calling them. If you just state, ''air arabia 123 requesting descent'', then it has the potential to cause confusion amongst other pilots in that airspace. You must always preface a call to ATC with at least ''control'' or '''tower'' or ''departure'' for example.

Saying SIR repeatedly ( there are only two nationalities who do that, the Indians and some Americans), is something that is not only wrong, it is quite annoying.

I take back what I posted earlier. It ISN'T rocket science if you have taken 20 minutes (out of your ENTIRE career) to read about proper RT. And this is where the problem lies because most pilots have never been exposed to required documents. We have managers (ATC and pilots) who have little experience and don't understand how such a simple thing as RT, is often one of the factors involved in accidents. I tried last night to find the relevant document regarding proper RT and I gave up after an hour. I know it exists at my airline but damned if I could find it.

I will say again, there often is a direct correlation between a pilot's ability and proficiency and his RT. The guys who say, ahhhh, ummmm, errrrrr during each transmission are also the guys who are more inclined to have less than ideal management skills. I do not know what causes it but in some cases it is just a lack of proper training and access to......... what.......... a 5 page document describing proper RT?

For example, THE biggest problem in India and Pakistan, is not the weather or the airport capabilities, or the facilities but rather the disproportionately massive number of improper RT calls. 6 aircraft on approach into Karachi, is like 55 aircraft on approach into JFK.

Listen to the Atlas guys reading back a clearance in DXB. It's a comedy show. ''Oh, ah, undershtand cleared... thank you shir'' Invariably, they mess up the clearance so DXB ATC has to repeat things to them. I am surprised these guys find their way to the plane sometimes. lol

Okay, I undershtand that this post is somewhat annoyin, gotta go down to two four oh, JBR sir. Checkin in', Ya'll have a good day now.

ferris

5th Jul 2010, 17:04

Confirm?........

White Knight

5th Jul 2010, 17:21

Interestingly - after the United flight landed at BRU instead of FRA, by mistake, Brussels ATC would NOT answer if you did NOT say "Brussels Control" on first contact.. I'm not sure if that's changed recently - I can't remember when I last flew through Brussels airspace:\:\

Edited to add that if any Brits display poor R/T then that's really bad as all UK CAA qualifed pilots have to (ok - had to) do an R/T exam with some crusty old examiner sitting in a room next to you attached to a telephone playing ATC.. I've still got the old red license lurking around somewhere.. Forget ICAO 'let's play English language' nonsense.. This was the real thing:}

BlueSkye

6th Jul 2010, 04:41

An older version. Not much has changed though. Scroll down to Part X.

http://lewczuk.com.pl/materialy/prawo/4444.pdf

heywood u bleume

6th Jul 2010, 05:50

www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

The R/T bible. Just a bit longer than the 5 pages referred to above. Enjoy

HUB

mensaboy

6th Jul 2010, 21:07

I don't recall one instance when cleared descent to 9000' was confused with 5000' or vice versa. I think that FIFE and NINER are remnants of the past but I'm willing to accept that Jimal, you have witnessed it.

I'm a bit surprised that you Jimal, who appears to be a stickler for the rules, don't comprehend why saying things in the correct order and always starting off with.....''Bahrain control'' or for subsequent calls, ''control'' is so important.

The human brain comprehends things in a certain way. First off, ATC and pilots need to be clued-into a call and that happens by the first words used in a radio transmission. ''Bahrain control, Emirates123, FL390'' It is simple, concise and not prone to error. Or 'bahrain, emirates123 passing FL245 descending FL190'' Some pilot's don't even realize that ATC checks our altitude call and if not within certain parameters, they are supposed to question it.

It is critical for pilots to address the proper agency either by name or just ''control'' as the FIRST thing we say..........partly because it immediately advises all other aircraft on that frequency that the call is NOT FOR THEM! And since many aircraft flying around this airspace seem to have similar call signs, EK, EY,QR 501 or something close, so if we don't start off with properly addressing the controlling agency, many other pilots will starting thinking........ was that call for us to descend to FL 250? Or did AA501 just say, ''AA 501 descending FL 250''?

A pilot is either lazy or too stupid to know who they are talking to, if they don't start off each RT in the proper manner. First call to ATC for example, ''dubai ground, emirates 123...'' (subsequent calls can be either 'Dubai ground' or 'ground') It is the easiest method aside from being the safest but for some reason many pilots don't bother. I have to question, why?

I think it boils down to past experiences and improper training because if some pilots are consciously choosing to say things like...... Emiratie123 or This is the Emirates123, checkin in with you at two four oh............. then they shouldn't be flying planes.

Once again, I don't really care what the rules are as long as they are effective and even more importantly, they must be STANDARD.

ManaAdaSystem

6th Jul 2010, 22:06

What the hell, mensa, are you German?

ZHERE MUST BE ORDER!!!!!

Schibulsky

7th Jul 2010, 01:54

MammaNannaSystem...zere vud be a lot less vidows on zis planet if ze R/T vud be like in ze Krauts land!:ok:
I zing ze tscherman Akzzent helps a lot...even ze dog trainers use it :p

mensaboy

9th Jul 2010, 17:22

The mere fact that ManadaSystem has made a feeble attempt to disparage my posts, has made me realize that most sane people probably agree with me.

Mana, you might be the least intelligent human-being on Pprune. Congratulations!

You have repeatedly made posts in support of buffoons while criticizing posters who state the obvious. Honestly............... what is your background and upbringing that causes you to be so ludicrous? I am fascinated by you, please enlighten us!

Most Pprunners have concluded that Mana is a Management Clown but I am starting to think he is pilot without conscience or ability. God, hopefully he is in management but you never know. He clearly would fit into the category of the 1% of pilots who are morons but he more readily fits into the category of 50% of management buffoons.

MANA, give us your history of flying! It is a simple request and no worries if you don't give names or airlines, but at least let us know if you fit into the classifications of Capt America. For once in your life MANA, be honest.

mensaboy

9th Jul 2010, 17:40

Oh I can't let it slide. The person posting under the name of Mana.... is not who he pretends to be.

I don't normally call human beings complete morons but to your face Mana, I will tell you, YOU ARE A COMPLETE MORON. I have reviewed your posts and there is no doubt that my assessment of you is correct.

YOU, should be nominated for the stupidest person on Pprune.

I disagree with some of my colleagues and clearly they disagree with me too but you are a piece of work. Are you being paid to counter logical arguments or are you just an idiot? I really need to know. If this planet has people who actually agree with your past posts (other than the sycophant, kiss-asses who need to personify such traits to keep their job) then we are all in serious trouble. Even if a very small minority of people have thought processes like YOU, then this planet is in trouble.

At least Capt America was exposed for who he truly was. I doubt it had an affect on him but at least we knew what we were up against. With you, it is still a mystery even though whatever your story is, there is no excuse for behaving in such a manner.

I implore all Ppruners to read Mana's posts because they adequately reflect the mindset, abilities and mindset of some of our managers.

Bidalot

9th Jul 2010, 17:57

boy....here we go again.
Mensaboy do not take it personally but can't you simply say that he is a tosser. We will all agree, promissed! Pls shorten your messages, we will understand it, no bother :ok:

pac man

9th Jul 2010, 18:15

This seems to have got way too intense, i don't normally post here but i that this is a pressing issue which needs resolving asap.
There is no need for it to become an us vs them situation, we all have to either fly in or control this airspace and therefore the more understanding there is between pilots and ATC, the better for us all.
From a UAE ACC point of view, pilots must realise that we are working to the rules and unless Dubai offers cancelation of speed and altitude restrictions, we will enforce them.
Holding has become an everyday event and it is far easier for us to vector you out of the hold than zig zag you across our limited airspace. SJ traffic has to hold because there is no other way to get you safely through the hold, we do try if the opportunity presents itself.
If you are based here then you know it can be chaos at times and we the ATC's do what we can with limited resources. RT space is at a premium, the fact that we have to call aircraft multiple times before getting a response certainly does raise the blood pressure and creates frustration.If ATC does not answer you they may be co ordinating with other units or sectors which could be to your benefit. Airmanship is another thing that is seriously suffering and I attribute this to the rapid growth of the local and sub continent airlines with many pilot being of limited experience.
As for speed reductions, if you are reduced to 250kts 100 nm out, it is purely to maintain spacing in order to avoid holding.

ManaAdaSystem

10th Jul 2010, 12:22

Thanks, mensa! I had a good laugh when I read your posts. Two posts and 200+ words just to say I'm an idiot, I guess you really are a mensa member.:D

Why don't you make your communication suggestions to the training department in EK? I'm sure it will make a bigger impact than waving you finger here on PPRUNE.

Enjoy the weather and remember, it's not a recession, it's a challenge!

Rusty Bullet Hole

10th Jul 2010, 15:36

1. Just to refresh my memory, can an ATC poster please let me know the minimum rate of descent that must be maintained when instructed to descend to a level/altitude. Is it a minimum of 500 FPM?

2. Can an ATC poster also let me know if there is a required rate of airspeed reduction when instructed to reduce speed from say 300kts to 250kts. I had a figure in my head of 1 knot per second reduction but can't find it written anywhere. I have have seen speed reduction done in many ways so I would like to know if there is a minimum rate required. Some people use speed brake and slow down quite quickly and others go to Vertical speed and just slow down at a very slow rate.

3. For the posters referring to a 5 page document available describing R/T procedures, there is a very good 19 page doc that was put out by Eurocontrol a few years ago titled "ALLCLEAR" - ICAO Standard Phraseology - A Quick Reference Guide for Commercial Air Transport Pilots.

You can Google it. I used to give a copy of it to all the guys I flew with that weren't native English speakers, but somehow had passed Level 4 English.

desertwarrior

10th Jul 2010, 17:54

Blueskye do you feel better now? Now that you've had your rant, and hopefully calmed down, can we have a rational and reasonable discussion about ATC-pilot communication please?

I understand that there is a lapse in communication standards, and that your point is that some of us pilots should be working harder to stick with standard phraseology. Your point is also well taken that given that it is your job to provide separation for us, our job is also to comply with ATC clearances expeditiously to assist in the process.

I am however compelled to point out to you that we are not all overpaid, under-educated, whining, American slang emulating prima donnas, as you and others have either stated or implied in the past. Try to understand that the vast majority of us are trying everyday to do the best possible job we can. Yes, we slip up sometimes, it's called "being human". You try performing optimally after being in a metal tube for 13 hrs, with little or no sleep, and after operating with minimum rest, and maximum legal hours for months on end. You are going to get the occasional slow reaction and missed call. There is also sometimes poor reception, or poor transmission, distractions in the cockpit, simultaneous talking on 121.5, calls from the back of the plane or from Company going on, so please try to cut us some slack, it's not like we get an immediate response from ATC everytime we make a call to you either, and we don't behave all prissy about it either.

Neither are you and your colleagues the paragons of knowledge when it comes to the rules of the air. I have been lambasted not once, but twice for slowing down AFTER being cleared for the approach into AUH. In my view this is just ignorant, petulant, arrogant and unprofessional. (as an aside, you can pass it on to your compadres that once you clear me for an approach WITHOUT re-issuing the speed restriction, the speed control is MINE.) If I screw up, mea culpa and I apologize, you guys should be man enough to do the same, this is seldom the case.

On another note, re: "Pilot's discretion" vs "When Ready"

Pilot’s Discretion: A phrase, when used in conjunction with altitude assignments, that means that ATC (air traffic control) has offered the pilot the option of starting to climb or descend whenever he or she wishes and conducting the climb or descent at a rate he or she desires. The pilot may level out at any intermediate altitude. However, once the pilot has vacated an altitude, he or she may not return to that altitude without clearance from ATC. The pilot must inform ATC when vacating an altitude.

When Ready: The pilot has the option to start descent when he or she chooses to the cleared level or altitude. However once descent has started, you cannot level off at an intermediate level or altitude and ATC expects a continuous rate of descent of at least 500 fpm.

Nuf said
DW

BlueSkye

10th Jul 2010, 20:33

Neither are you and your colleagues the paragons of knowledge when it comes to the rules of the air. ...... speed restriction, the speed control is MINE.) If I screw up, mea culpa and I apologize, you guys should be man enough to do the same, this is seldom the case.

Maybe you should pose this question to someone who works approach. I have no idea.

R/T is as much a part of commercial flying as is lowering the landing gear and the overwhelming majority of pilots seem to remember this bit after thirteen hours. Everybody gets tired, I'm not arguing that point, but it's at this phase where standards and discipline are vital. It might be tedious saying the same thing over and over again but that's the whole purpose of standard r/t, no room for misunderstanding.

Own thread hijack. I'm waiting for the first complaint on this here exalted forum about the lower levels being issued when exiting the FIR to the west. Start getting used to FL220 or 240 to BALUS.

ferris

10th Jul 2010, 21:27

Ha! I've said it before, and I'll say it again- if somebody showed Sheikh Ahmed how much fuel is wasted every year due to the stupidity and petulance of the Great Dane, he would be lynched. Literally.

omaATC

11th Jul 2010, 03:59

Neither are you and your colleagues the paragons of knowledge when it comes to the rules of the air. I have been lambasted not once, but twice for slowing down AFTER being cleared for the approach into AUH. In my view this is just ignorant, petulant, arrogant and unprofessional. (as an aside, you can pass it on to your compadres that once you clear me for an approach WITHOUT re-issuing the speed restriction, the speed control is MINE.)

Have you got any reference to that? According to my book any speed restriction is valid untill 4nm on final unless othervise stated, so if there is any documents saying anything different I would be very interested in reading it (and passing it on to all my compadres.)

ATCO1962

11th Jul 2010, 04:09

desert warrior,

It looks like you cut and pasted your definition of "Pilot's discretion" and I'd like to know where you got it from and who actually believes that. I have never seen or heard anything like that and would be very surprised if a controller who used that expression would then be happy to see an aircraft climb/descend and stop at any level they want at any time. Once you start your descent/climb, keep going until you get to your assigned level or tell ATC if you have to level off at an intermediate level.

We teach people to use the term interchangeably with "when ready..." and expect aircraft to climb/descend at 500fpm minimum, subject to any other restrictions the controller may impose.

Rusty bullet hole,

I don't know if it's written as a rule, but our manuals usually state that a clean aircraft can lose 1 knot per second, so that's roughly what we expect.

Rusty Bullet Hole

11th Jul 2010, 06:44

Atco 1962, that rate of slowing down at 1 knot per second was certainly a rule in Aussie when I was there years ago but I have since flown with guys from many different countries and when I suggest this is the rate that we should slow down at, you get the standard cockpit question "Where is that written?"

So I would really like to know the answer because generally using the Speedbrake is the only way to achieve this reduction and descend at minimum 500 FPM and many people are allergic to using the Speedbrake because some one told them it is bad descent planning or you upset the passengers.

Short Approach?

11th Jul 2010, 09:30

2. Can an ATC poster also let me know if there is a required rate of airspeed reduction when instructed to reduce speed from say 300kts to 250kts. I had a figure in my head of 1 knot per second reduction but can't find it written anywhere. I have have seen speed reduction done in many ways so I would like to know if there is a minimum rate required. Some people use speed brake and slow down quite quickly and others go to Vertical speed and just slow down at a very slow rate.

As fast as you can while taking care of all that pilot-stuff. Do it slowly and the next thing you hear will be "reduce to 230kts"

1 knot per second seems pretty decent.

Oh! and on the original subject. It's amazing how three Air Arabia aircraft on your approach frequency can jam it up completely. Request this, maintaining that and can you please confirm reduce speed! :mad:

A nice Air Arabia chap even found it prudent recently to use frequency time telling me I was overloaded, while I was scrambling to get guys to the director frequency. Sick of it to be honest.

Radar Pete

11th Jul 2010, 11:28

I heard 10kts loss per NM as a guideline, which works out about the same as 1kt per second.

With respect to descent rate, if an aircraft is instructed to descend then a rate of between 1000-1500 fpm is appreciated. We know an early descent will keep most aircraft below their desired profile but sequencing requires aircraft at similar levels to be affective, failing that the hold becomes active. Keep in mind, ATC issue an early descent as they know that the aircraft will be reduced in speed prior to the STAR speed requirement thereby changing the aircraft's profile. As Short Approach indicates, a slow descent will result in slower speeds being issued.

My suggestion to Air Arabia, suck it in and take heed of the advice provided here, it will help your position in the sequence.

No response yet to the BALUS problem? Amazing how management brag about BALUS being one of the busiest waypoints (probably in the world). Great record to have. Operators have better get used to low levels through BALUS.

desertwarrior

11th Jul 2010, 13:01

I spent a good amount of time trying to find the rule in the ICAO Annexes yesterday, and was unable to find the reference, I haven't given up yet, however, I did find the following in the FAA AIM Section 4-4-12 under Speed Adjustments, quote:

Approach clearances supersede any prior speed adjustment assignments, and pilots are expected to make their own speed adjustments, as necessary, to complete the approach. Under certain circumstances, however, it may be necessary for ATC to issue further speed adjustments after approach clearance is issued to maintain separation between successive arrivals. Under such circumstances, previously issued speed adjustments will be restated if that speed is to be maintained or additional speed adjustments are requested. ATC must obtain pilot concurrence for speed adjustments after approach clearances are issued. Speed adjustments should not be assigned inside the final approach fix on final or a point 5 miles from the runway, whichever is closer to the runway.

Regards,
DW

pacificgypsy

11th Jul 2010, 13:42

For all ATC colleagues.......as pilots, we can't anticipate your sequencing plans. You may give us a descent, well before our planned descent point....but without a target speed or time restriction at a specific point, we will/or our FMS will attempt to optimise the profile. Please give us all required info to allow us to best utilise the performance of the aircraft and also meet your ATC restrictions.
Thanks

ferris

11th Jul 2010, 14:13

Aeroflop

11th Jul 2010, 14:16

First and foremost, tit-for-tat gets no-one no-where. So cop on and stop acting like a bunch of toddlers that have just chucked their dummies out of their cots! :rolleyes:

A few points:

Not all pilots are morons - in fact I've met more morons who are controllers! A lot of the carriers that fly through the UAE are, to say the least, pretty much below standard. Sometimes its like running a day care centre. But this is just down to the relevant infancy of aviation in this part of the world. Save a few airlines, most of the regional carriers (and this includes the indian sub-continent) employ home-grown pilots. Lack of experience, older aircraft, non-compliance with ICAO, poor english, etc all add to the heartbreak! But nevertheless, until such time as things mature, we're stuck with it. Now I don't mind repeating a clearance if its misunderstood. I do mind if its busy and someone simply aint listening or worse still they guess a clearance and it gets me into :mad:! I've generally found that as long as I'm courtieous and professional on frequency as well as speaking slowly and clearly, I don't normally have to repeat. I just don't understand why some controllers get all up in a tissy when they have to repeat themselves because they've just spoke in riddles. :confused:

Now sometimes pilots ask for stuff - lower levels, higher levels, high speed, direct to, opposite rwy - you name it! I'll be happy to try to accommodate provided I'm not just after wetting myself because I'm overloaded. It never fails to amaze me why some ask the stupidest of questions when I'm clearly not in a position to answer. If its blatently obvious its busy, just do as your told - and everyone gets out alive. I work with a lot of fine controllers. Many with almost 30+ years experience. On the other hand I work with a lot of idiots. And I'm sorry taht you have to put up with incompetence. But were not all tainted and most of us work very hard to be expedidious and more importantly safe. Unfortunately, were stuck with a bunch of silly rules that make our work impossible at times. Yes, we've tried to change them but some have even got fired for speaking up! Shame, but were stuck for now. So please don't get angry for being put in the DESDI hold at midnight after a 10hr flight with little or no sleep. With the current regime, we are simply overloaded and can't cope. If things don't change and as traffic levels increase, it WILL get worse.

And just a point about DESDI and BUBIN - Yes the UAE ACC control all levels in these holds. Dubai App give us a spacing requirement, which we are obliged to comply with. Again, some controllers in Dubai work quite hard and efficiently to get everyone in. But then others are just pure lazy and are quite happy to put 8nm in trail spacing on finals as supposed to 4nm which others can do. Again, your holding because of spacing in Dubai. They have their rules, which I can't go into. But anyone from APP is free to post.

Personally I think Air Arabia are a good operator. Yeah, they ask for direct this and direct that and even when you put them in the hold, they seldom complain - well too much anyways. If I run a sequence, and OMDB and OMSJ arrival are neck and neck I will co-ordinate parrallel tracks with Dubai. It makes my life easier, more economical for the airlines as it allows both aircraft to fly their profiles without speed or level contraints. Again this is with Dubais approval and I can't ever see why they would refuse, but sometimes they do.

I would encourage any pilot to try to visit the centre. Its a great experience and there's a lot to be gained from doing it. Also, controllers should be allowed sit in on simulator rides to really appreciate what goes on. We do have familiarisation trips which some of us have done, and to great benefit.

So the next time you enter the DESDI hold at FL360, don't ask for lower - we cant give you lower. :ok: Next time you're given a speed reduction, reduce! Yeah the controller might be a complete incompetent tosser but he or she might probably be one of the 99% who are actually doing their best. :ok:

Remember - Sometimes your the windscreen and sometimes your the bug!! :eek:

And next time you fly to KJFK or EGLL, have a whinge when your told to either turn away from the airport or you'll be holding for an hour! Let me know what the response is!!:{

Shalom! :cool:

omaATC

11th Jul 2010, 14:21

DW: I guess that FAA AIM are american documents?
I have also been reading through the ICAO docs, and I also cannot find anything other than what I mentioned already, so unless your continous search find something different I will keep expecting you to comply with any speed restrictions even if you are cleared for approach.

But also dont be shy to ask to slow down if you need, just request it and we will accomodate as much as possible.

desertwarrior

11th Jul 2010, 17:59

I'm pretty steamed right now, just spent the better part of an hour writing and researching a reply here, just to have it evaporate into cyberspace somewhere unknown. So this will be short.

ATCO1962

When Ready reference can be found in CAP413, pretty standard. The reference for Pilot's Discretion can be found here.
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html

omaATC
I found another reference, this one from Transport Canada AIM RAC 9.7.3 which states

Issuance of an approach clearance normally cancels a speed adjustment; however, if the controller requires that a pilot maintain a speed adjustment after the issuance of the approach clearance, the controller will restate it.

Seeing as JAA seems mute on the subject, I stand by my original statement about speed after appraoch clearance, unless you can prove otherwise. Not trying to make your life more difficult, but we do have a Company mandate to be stable by 1000' and I don't like going around.
Anyone else care to comment?

DW

ManaAdaSystem

11th Jul 2010, 19:13

Yes. I fly the speed ATC tells me to fly. If I need to slow down I tell them.

All this I manage to do without the aid of a manual.

desertwarrior

11th Jul 2010, 21:55

If you just do as you're told, I guess that absolves you having to know what the manual says then. Smart.

pacificgypsy

11th Jul 2010, 23:46

Gypsy: If you receive an unexpected descent instruction out of the blue- say, you are 200nm to run at FL370, and get "UAExxx, descend now to FL 330", how is that achieved? What different ways are there to do it, and what is the most common way?

ferris...this type of clearance is very common and there are a number of ways you can handle it. Some aircraft types have specific limitations eg B777 with RR engines require descent to be idle thrust for first 30 seconds. A gentler descent would be to use VS of 500 fpm (unless ATC requires an increased rate) until you reach your VNav profile.

Sciolistes

12th Jul 2010, 04:32

Here you go chaps, plenty of reading and training material including the R/T manual mentioned earlier. It is all good stuff so fill yer boots.

SKYbrary - Solutions:ALLCLEAR (http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Solutions:ALLCLEAR)

A phraseology database: https://trainingzone.eurocontrol.int/phraseology/search.jsp

ferris

12th Jul 2010, 11:07

omaATC

12th Jul 2010, 12:43

DW, not to make your life more difficult too, but I also stand by what i have said earlier. And all my colleagues I have spoken to agrees with me, neither of them have ever heard that an approach clearance cancells any speed restrictions.

If you are on the 340 or 777, you are welcome to use those rules you have quoted when you fly in to Toronto, JFK and Chicago, but on this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific if you travel the long way around) you need to follow the ICAO rules, and I will give you a bullocking every time you dont comply with any clearence given.

And I am sorry, I cannot prove othervise, just like a cannot prove that any climb or decent clearence does not cancel any heading clearence (which it doesn't.) My point is, unless the rules specifically say that an approach clearance cancels any speed restricion, it doesn't.

And as I said before, if you want to slow down, just ask, and we will accomodate. We also do not enjoy you going around, it generates a lot of extra work (and paperwork) for us.

desertwarrior

12th Jul 2010, 14:06

No worries omaATC, if it makes everyone happier I'll ask you next time I need to slow down on the turn. I appreciate the dialogue mate.

DW

pacificgypsy

13th Jul 2010, 00:01

I ask because there are rare occasions when it's ok for you to drift down, but most times we want to see some action. When it's needed, different guys use different instructions to achieve that end (with varying results).

ferris, my point exactly. So if you need us at Desdi at a specific time, include that in the clearance and we'll adjust the speed to comply. If you need a specific rate of descent till through an altitude eg 1500fpm till passing F280 then include that in the clearance. Although the descent (from an aircraft efficiency point of view) may not be optimum, it does allow us to return to a more efficient profile as soon as we've passed the conflicting traffic etc.

ATCO1962

14th Jul 2010, 02:39

The problem is, mensaboy, the relevent documents can be different around the world. desert warrior has pointed to the American definition of "Pilot's discretion" that exists in the FAA docs but nowhere else, as far as I know. I can't believe that they would allow for an aircraft, in controlled airspace, to descend to any level they want, stop at any intermediate level (including a non-standard one) and then resume their descent whenever they want, based on this flimsy phraseology.

It just highlights the need to synchronise RT manuals across the board, regardless of the whining that may emanate from the world ATC superpowers, and ensure everyone follows the agreed-upon standards. Doc 4444 and any others that contain RT standards aren't enough; we need ICAO members to insist that we sing from the same score when it comes to phraseology and not allow filed differences to suit individual countries.