You can now pay to be a 744 captain!!!!!!

[SloppyJoe]

Eagle Jet Flight Training and Sales, Piston Flight Training and Jet Sales, Airplane Sales. (http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display)

I am shocked. I thought new guys paying to do some line training was outrageous. Words cannot describe this though. Is there anyone who has the required experience willing to do this sort of thing?

This PTF c**p has to be stopped as I am sure there will be some :mad: that will consider it. It has gone way too far.

[169west]

Yep
absolutely outrageous! ... but I want to know the guy that with 7000 TT and 2000 jet commercial PIC is so desperate!

[zerotohero]

I like the headline of "Taking todays pilots into tomorrows career"

lol,, is paying to fly a 747 after your already a captian on one is tomorrows career I think ill pass thanks and go work on the bins! I would have more self respect that way then

There must be a joke in there somewhere on this, they cant be serious.

How can you sit in an interview selling yourself when at the same time been sold a 40k package from them, whos kidding who?

[viking320]

This is wrong very wrong WHATS THE WORLD OF AVIATION COMING TOO
When is FAA/JAA/CASA or anyone going to put an end to these type of greedy operators
Shame on this profession as a whole.

[flash8]

I saw this a while ago and probably like others I had to read it a second time to absorb it fully.

Unfortunately the P2F "cancer" is integrally with us now, and to an extent we have ourselves to blame for this by being walked over by management again and again, so that, on reading the 744 stuff I guess it wasn't entirely surprising. What will the companies SFO's awaiting upgrade do? Probably :mad: (fantastic for CRM... not).

My worry primarily is safety, kos really demonstrated the cracks inherent in this type of "training" - one day it will come back and really bite us.

[Aussie]

Guys,

The joke isnt Eagle jet and the offerings... the joke is the pilots who accept this... :ugh::ugh:

[captjns]

Viking320 states...

This is wrong very wrong WHATS THE WORLD OF AVIATION COMING TOO

When is FAA/JAA/CASA or anyone going to put an end to these type of greedy operators.

The FAA nor EASA do not nor have they cared who funds the type rating course. Their only concern is that all the requirements set forth within the respective airlines' General Operations and Flight Training Operations Manuals, and country's aviation regulations are satisfied.

Shame on this profession as a whole.

Can't blame the business man for wanting to make a buck... blame the people willing to pay to play. However, more oversight on by the approving aviation agencies is required so quality control in training, and airmen can be properly monitored. Who knows with more presence from the aviation agencies around these puppy pilot mills may be a deterrence for the the pay to play pilot. After all... who wants Fred T. Rukus breathing down one's neck on a daily basis?

[Microburst2002]

Who knows?

Maybe it is good news.
Maybe that's what it takes for the pilot community to start acting about PTF and other issues.
Yesterday, PTF was a first officers Vs wannabees problem skilfully exploited by schools, TRTOs and airlines. Most captains didn't give a shlt.

Today, it is captains' problem, too!

Nobody is safe, now. If you are an experienced captain in an airline where direct entry pilots can be hired, they can hire a few direct entry proffesional payer pilots for left hand seats coming from such programs. They will accept less money than you, or even fly for free for a while. So be careful, fellow captains...

Of course, being an experienced FO and seeing how one of these PPPs come and overtakes you like a Ferrari is not nice, either.


So:
What are we going to do, fellows?

[judge11]

'If you are an experienced captain' .....and just what if you are an experienced captain, out of work through no fault of your own, but just happen to have the 'wrong' type rating ie not Airbus or Boeing 73. What is he/she supposed to do.

If you've already got 7000hrs, 2000hrs P1 jet and 500 hrs on type (and the cash to spend on funding your type rating) you are easily suitably qualified to take the LHS, surely.

[potkettleblack]

Isn't this just a further extension of the age old problem of DEC's entering an existing company and bypassing seniority lists and thereby displacing senior f/o's that were ready for upgrade?

Companies have been setting up "new" bases on reduced T&C's, bypassing labour laws, instigating new seniority lists and the like for years. Emirates as just one example have bypassed their pool of f/o's in order to take on DEC's in order to reduce training costs. FR even asked for sealed bids for upgrades at one of its bases and the "successful and dillusional" f/o's didn't even seek an increase in pay for shifting to the LHS.

Paying for PIC time is just a step further if you ask me and is tapping into a business opportunity.

[seventhreedriver]

This made me physically sick...

[judge11]

potkettleblack

Do you make your comments from the luxury of paid employment? And if so, from a comfortable position up the seniority list with job security?

On another thread concerning seniority and DECs 'werbil' wrote:

"A seniority system which takes into account total time, command time, time on type etc in conjunction with time in the company would allow movement between companies without having to go to the bottom of the pile to change jobs.

Traditional seniority is good for four groups of people - the very senior pilots, the inexperienced junior pilots, the unions and the airline.

The biggest loser with the traditional seniority are the very senior who's airline folds. After 20 years in the one company would you like to go to the bottom of the food chain just because the airline you worked for went broke?"

In the current maelstrom in the industry 'traditional' went out the window several years ago and if an airline requires 'experience' in the LHS that doesn't exist internally, then why not recruit direct? Recruiting suitably qualified people for specific posts happens in the 'landside' departments of airlines every day.

This is the only 'profession' I can think of that precludes sideways moves - thanks to the archaic seniority system we use.

[SetStandard]

And the best bit about it is, it’s being advertised at the top of this page! :yuk:

[Callsign Kilo]

FR even asked for sealed bids for upgrades at one of its bases and the "successful and dillusional" f/o's didn't even seek an increase in pay for shifting to the LHS.

Anything to substantiate that rather audacious claim of yours? Or is it one of those 'my mate, who's mate knows a guy who flies for FR and he said...' type scenarios?

Just out of interest obviously...

[beachbumflyer]

I remember saying this would happen sooner or later. And it looks that it rather is sooner than later. ¿And who is going to stop it now? Only the pilots can. All they need is some dignity and self respect.

[captjns]

potkettleblack with great confidence states.



[quote]FR even asked for sealed bids for upgrades at one of its bases and the "successful and dillusional" f/o's didn't even seek an increase in pay for shifting to the LHS.[\quote]

Alas... another unsubstantiated comment from another FR basher/microft type pilot. From where in the wood work do some of these people come from:}:mad::mad::mad::*!?!

[jetjockey696]

CAE also sells the package for Captains... ( Lion Air...NAS Air a320 and EMB and a Spanish outfit called Lan.com).

[TOFFAIR]

If someone pays for training, MCC, TR, Line training, Hours build-up, etc... might have already a funding problem... so from where will then the $$$ come from to pay the 7000hrs, upgrade, 744 experience etc?
Supposed, this is a kind of hobby, you still would need the time to care about a "real" job, and I dont think P2F rosters will be that friendly!:rolleyes:
You must be dreaming of times of slavery, when you could work for free, even got housing and food and clothes...
I even thought those adds might be just sponsered by a company to show their pilots they should stop complaining about T&C, but it looks like its for real.

[flash8]

absolutely toffair

a thought has just occurred to me... it is now possible to go from license issue through to LHS 744 entirely through P2f.. theoretically!

A great "hobby" if you have the money!

[Twin2040]

Well - flying as a hobby is a Piper Cub on a sunny afternoon - not airline jets on odd hours, generaly overworked - its sucks ......... One thing for sure - quality among "commanders" must be going down - the guy willing to pay get the job - passengers should know. On this site we are being moderated - fine, maybe a bit of self critique is required here - no more banners for Eagle Jets if I was to decide - it is Professional pilots forum or what ? Paying your way up the ranks never makes a pro .......

[F3G]

If only the general public knew about this, perhaps they don't give a shyte?Speaking as a frequent air traveller (business consultant) I am getting very concerned about the degrading of experience in the flight deck through these type of schemes.

Unfortunately, the general public would not even understand the problem, as they would likely say "but if the xAA allows it, it must be safe."

The problem is that the industry has debased itself and focused on providing a product at completely unrealistic prices.

Like pilots on P2F schemes, the high fares I pay are going to subsidise this lunacy, for example 700€ for a 4.5 hour 'business class' flight, with a 33" seat pitch, no pre flight drinks, no hot towels, no drinks (as in water) for 2 hours after the meal etc.

The above example is trifling compared to the impact of P2F on your career, but I feel that it is symptomatic of an industry where the growth over the past 10 years or so feels very much like a 'Ponzi' scheme to me, at least in certain low service airlines, who seem to depend on very cheap RHS occupancy.

The traditional airlines react by cost cutting and cheap fares in the back, whilst stinging people like me who pay good money for a shoddy product.

The problem is that the consumer is very price driven and does not understand the implication of their buying decisions.

I have nothing to offer apart from my sympathy that a very responsible job is being degraded is this way. :mad:

Edited to add that I have now crossed NAS off my list of carriers, due to coments on page 1 of this thread - a small gesture, but one that I can make.