JQ Bali turnaround 'unsafe'

[juliusg]

I flew JQ38 from Bali Friday 25 June (delayed until 4.20am Sat 26 June). The crew had been on duty since 4.50pm (Melbourne) and the flight arrived 11am (Sydney). With a direct turnaround the cabin crew worked 18+ hours on this pair.

As a passenger I feel the fatigue level of the cabin crew is too high - if we had an emergency at the end, how would they respond?

I note that the flight crew (pilots) do disembark and stay in Bali. But the cabin crew should not be expected to work this way, on an A330 which does not have the same crew rest facilities as a 747 or A380.

Jetstar should let the crew stay in Bali, or fly a second crew while the first crew deadhead back to Sydney/Melb.

[Muizenberg]

Julius G,

Thank you for recognising that Cabin Crew ARE HUMAN. 18+ hours is an awful long time to be on duty without proper rest. Undoubtly if an emergency occured on the return sector the Cabin Crew would not be able to perform to 100% of their ability.

Please put your concerns in writing to CASA (www.casa.gov.au (http://www.casa.gov.au)) and Bruce Buchannan at Jetstar.

Once again thank you for your concern and insight.

[juliusg]

I have just filed a REPCON, and will write to Jetstar.

[Ejector]

And you really think that JetStar will care?

All that will happen is the bosses will ask, 'Did they get back OK?" not give a damn they are tired as hell and service was effected and not alert, then they will find some way to may 18hr days the norm. Maybe they can be the same as pilots now and pay to work there.

Nice touch to email them though, I fear it will back fire with JQ Management. :ugh:

[standard unit]

Very nice of you to show some concern.

Unfortunately working conditions in the Qantas Group for cabin crew have "changed" over the years and now show a remarkable similarity to those endured by workers in the late 1800s during the UKs Industrial Revolution.

Airlines and their bosses have become our time's equivalent of the "cotton mills" run by the robber barons/industrialists of that era. Maximum hours, minimum pay/conditions coupled without even a pretence of concern for the welfare of the individual.

As cabin crew we're not even permitted to be issued with the woollen uniform component for those long night sectors as it is deemed too "dowdy". This, despite the fact that it is available to and worn by, our ground staff. :yuk:

The head of Cabin Services is reputedly on record being heard describing her business model as, "get them young and burn them out".

Sadly no one cares, much less the Australian regulator.

QF cabin crew can now operate [without a choice] to 20 hours in unplanned circumstances. JQ will probably be worse.

Any query to management about the morality of such issues is met with the following reply.

"It's legal".

[Sunstar320]

I guess they will care if you email these two :E

Contact form for Today Tonight on Yahoo!7 (http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/contactform/suggest-story)

A Current Affair > Feedback (http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/feedback.aspx)

[Artificial Horizon]

I am afraid that CASA must bear the brunt for these practices. I have been constantly suprised since returning to Oz from the UK at just how useless the flight time limitations here are. I am afraid if it is legal then ALL airlines will work crews to the limits. It is up to the individual crew members to report 'sick' due to fatigue if it is too much for them. Unfortuantly a couple of pax commenting that the crew must be really tired isn't going to make any difference.:confused:

Trust me when I say that Jetstar will NEVER out of the goodness of thier hearts decide to nightstop crew when legally they can operate both sectors. I am sure on this occassion the flight crew probably were limited by something in the EBA which doesn't cover cabin crew.

[compressor stall]

Sadly no one cares, much less the Australian regulator.


Not correct. CASA do intend to introduce F&D type limits for cabin crew.

When, though is another matter.

[CLEAROF]

But the cabin crew should not be expected to work this way

They generally aren’t, cabin crew should be consulted by their operations during a disruption to ensure they are willing to continue on the duty beyond a certain limit (don’t know what that is I don’t work there).

The cabin crew would be quick on the blower to the FAAA if they believed that jetstar had them crewing illegally.

[standard unit]

if they believed that jetstar had them crewing illegally.

Which is the point everyone is trying to make.

Industrial agreements [negotiated at the barrel of a gun] deem that these types of inhumane and unsafe flight duties are legal.

As I said before.

QF's response.

"It's legal".

[CLEAROF]

QF cabin crew can now operate [without a choice] to 20 hours in unplanned circumstances. JQ will probably be worse.


QF has duty limits much higher than I had thought, I withdraw my previous comment. The Company I work at has duty limits much much lower than this.

[ratpoison]

QF cabin crew may be able to do 20 hours BUT they have suitable HORIZONTAL inflight rest facilities. JQ have a pathetic seat in economy which cannot even be compared to QF.

Don't bother contacting Today Tonight as their morning show is sponsored by Sh*tstar. Channel Seven very rarely if ever, have anything negative to air about them.
Not correct. CASA do intend to introduce F&D type limits for cabin crew.

When, though is another matter.
When people get killed, that's when.

[standard unit]

QF cabin crew may be able to do 20 hours BUT they have suitable HORIZONTAL inflight rest facilities.

Yes but only on the 744 and A380.

Not so on the A332/3 or 767.

The fact that Jetstar management can't even provide a Y/C seat for their cabin crew is nothing short of disgusting.

[AN1944]

:ugh:THIS IS HOW THEY IMPROOVE THEIR BOTTOM LINE WORK THE A OF THE EQUIPMENT AND THE CREW REPLACE THEM AFTER THEIR WORN OUT THE GO AT IT NEW PLANE NEW CREWS AROUND IT GOES WHEN IT ALL GOES A UP EMPLOY DE SPIN DOCTOR

[terminal2]

The head of Cabin Services is reputedly on record being heard describing her business model as, "get them young and burn them out".

Didn't she just have to reapply for her job after being made redundant along with the other "customer service" management?

.........must have hurt that kick up the bum!

[dizzylizzy]

Didn't Ansett cabincrew do a DPS rtn exMEL? How many duty hours was that pattern?

[puff]

Flightcrew also did MEL-DPS-MEL return on Ansett - having said that, that was normally their entire weeks work too !

[raft rower]

Ansett also carried 3 pilots and had a curtained off rest area in J class for them. As for us in the cabin, we had 4 curtained off seats in Economy. Still a tiring duty nonetheless. :zzz:

[ratpoison]

Please put your concerns in writing to .......................and Bruce Buchannan at Jetstar.
That brings to mind the infamous quote from George Orwell:

"What can be done about a lunatic who makes out they are more intelligent than yourself, gives your arguments a duplicitous hearing and then simply persists in his lunacy"! :cool:

[Heavy Cargo]

Mate of mine and family were booked on JQ4 Thursday to Hawaii and just got a call from JQ the A330 is broken ( 2 days in advance ) and there are no seats. " we will give you a refund " that will help the holiday plans ? JQ were trying to get QF B767 to pick up the pieces for school holidays.
Hawaiian Airlines stepped in today and saved the pax all be it at a repurchase of tickets at higher price. JQ did not want to know anyone after the cancellation.
JetStar should give it away happens every school holidays, paint the JQ tails red and give the experienced airline (QF) the reins.:eek:

[Bula]

QF also cancels flights.. the difference being QF, due to the scale of the operation, have far more ability to recover any lost flights. You want full fare, pay full fare. You want budget, pay budget. There is a difference but realistically, the possibility that it was your friends flight who was cancelled, probably 1/50. You have more chance winning a round of roulette then being on a cancelled flight with JQ.

[chockchucker]

There is a difference but realistically, the possibility that it was your friends flight who was cancelled, probably 1/50. You have more chance winning a round of roulette then being on a cancelled flight with JQ.

Tell that to the punters in Darwin. They are less than impressed with the service/cancellation rate with JQ and usually don't have the option to jump on QF. Especially if JQ are the only ones operating on a route that was gifted them by QF.

[Taildragger67]

Not correct. CASA do intend to introduce F&D type limits for cabin crew.

When, though is another matter.

Albo's too busy worrying about flight deck access than whether or not a CC member is alert enough to potential problems at the end of their duty.

[Wellhung Unit]

Thank you for recognising that Cabin Crew ARE HUMAN. 18+ hours is an awful long time to be on duty without proper rest. Undoubtly if an emergency occured on the return sector the Cabin Crew would not be able to perform to 100% of their ability.

Absolutely correct, BUT surely the CC have a duty of care NOT to operate if this is the case....

[juliusg]

I started this thread. JQ crew told me 1 x 330 was broken thus the Bali SNAFU, and they only have 7. So the Hawaii cancel is another down line from this.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Tell that to the punters in Darwin. They are less than impressed with the service/cancellation rate with JQ and usually don't have the option to jump on QF. Especially if JQ are the only ones operating on a route that was gifted them by QF.

They should be grateful for the capacity that is currently available out of Darwin and the fare levels available compared to less then ten years ago...

Darwin delivers poor returns to Qantas - it is a leisure route and that is why TT touch it seasonally...

[Gas Bags]

Juliusg,

How long have you been a flight attendant for JQ? Perhaps a different vote on your EBA might have more impact than posting here.

GB

[Gnd Power]

How long have you been a flight attendant for JQ? Perhaps a different vote on your EBA might have more impact than posting here.
GB

Regardless of the outcome of any EBA vote, are you seriously advocating that passengers should be looked after by Cabin Crew who have been on duty 18+ hours without reasonable rest facilities. Take into account getting ready for work and travel, it would be reasonable to expect that the CC would have been out of a decent bed for around 24 hours. And really, a Y class seat in a low cost A330 doesn't really cut it for rest.

They should be grateful for the capacity that is currently available out of Darwin and the fare levels available compared to less then ten years ago...

Oh....for that reason second rate service is fine and dandy? Nice to feel wanted.

Just like the poor punters on JQ 942 last night, BNE - CNS scheduled departure 2040. ..."Sorry guys, you are all going to CNS via TSV now as we need to drop of a Gingerbeer as another fine example of our JQ aircraft has gone tech and we don't have anyone up there to fix it".

Puk the fact that 180+ punters did not want to go via TSV, just wanted to get home.

Hopefully you guys are just tongue in cheek, I would hate to think that you see merit in any of this.

[Managers Perspective]

So the cabin crew had a long day.....

But where is the safety bit?

Did the skipper not get his/her coffee, or where you 3 scotch and cokes short in your service?

What am I missing here?

MP

[blueloo]

Managers Perspective:What am I missing here?

Just about everything, but thats got nothing to do with this topic.

[chockchucker]

Darwin delivers poor returns to Qantas - it is a leisure route and that is why TT touch it seasonally...



Tell that to the many mining industry and assciated support industry employees up there that deserve a lot better.


And what's the point to JQ's low fares when you buy one, organise business around it, and then JQ cancels the flight because they don't like the load factor that day. Too bad, so sad you might say.


Hopefully under new management, Virgin blue will be able to reap rewards out of the QF/JQ second class treatment of the people of Darwin and the Northern territory.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

JQ cancels the flight because they don't like the load factor that day

That is a false statement. Jetstar does not cancel flights on a daily basis because of poor load factors. Jetstar adjusts schedules in response to demand, capacity and commercial objectives. To believe flights are cancelled on a daily basis is absurd.

NT is a major Pan-Asian hub for Jetstar and is well supported. If Jetstar's treatment is so 'second class' on this market, then why isn't VB capitalising on this? Or are they irresponsibly putting commercial considerations first...

[chockchucker]

NT is a major Pan-Asian hub for Jetstar and is well supported. If Jetstar's treatment is so 'second class' on this market, then why isn't VB capitalising on this?


Note with interest the latest developments at VB Mr T-Vasis. From somebody who travels through Darwin on a regular basis, Virgin could definitely gain from an increased presence there. Particularly when they get their new premium product sorted out.


And if you wish to quote me, do it accurately. I never said JQ cancel flights due to load factors on a DAILY basis. However, the do so with an annoying regularity.


As for Darwin being well supported by JQ, they would be nowhere without big brother QF backing them up. Particularly with regards to engineering.

[skybed]

from managers perspective.
"So the cabin crew had a long day.....But where is the safety bit?"
18 hrs plus without a proper crew rest or descent break does not have an impat on safety ??? how thick can one be??
unfortunatly this quote is the mind set of todays QF/J* managers.:ugh::yuk:

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Chockchucker - I am not sure what Qantas does in Darwin that 'backs Jetstar'. Engineering - well, Jetstar contracts Qantas to provide Engineering services. That's a cost - it's not a free service. Jetstar could establish their own Engineering base if so desired. It should be Qantas that is fortunate to have the 'business'.

Airport services - again, Qantas is contracted by Jetstar - a commercial agreement. Not a free service.

Virgin and Tiger can compete freely with Jetstar on this market but choose not to be aggressive.

The bottom line is this; thanks to the LCC segment, more opportunities exist for consumers to travel at significantly reduced costs. Yes, this is delivered differently to the 'old days', but ultimately, consumers are reaping the benefits. 10 years ago things were a different story i.e. 21 day advance purchase fares, min stay Sat night, fares at exorbitant levels, less capacity etc.

Sometime we all need to think about that...

[chockchucker]

It should be Qantas that is fortunate to have the 'business'.


Actually, it is Jetstar who are fortunate to have the expertise of Qantas available to them. If they really had to compete on a level playing field, and invest in all their own infrastucture, they'd still be the size that Tiger is today.


Set up their own jetbase, get real. That would blow their cost base clean out of the water. The Jetstar experience with outsourced maintenance providers elsewhere like JHAS is proving far from ideal and they know it. However, there's stuff all they can do about it because to gear up themselves properly would be more than the Management are prepared to lose in KPI bonuses. Therefore, JHAS has them over a barrell.


One big problem all LCC's will face in the future; When oil returns to a price of around $174/barrell like it did not that long ago (and stays there) they'll have little margin to absorb that extra cost. That is, unless of course, big brother steps in and buys fuel for them.

[puff]

T-Vasis - without a doubt the consumer is the ONLY winner in the changes in the industry in the 'bad old days'. Sadly tho in order for the caravan folk to get a cheap weekend down on the gold coast means that all involved in the industry are now on the whole earning less than people were getting 15 years ago.

Fanastic system for the consumer - although the thong and mullet crowd still expects the same treatment and service they were getting for a $800 return trip to SYD from MEL in the 90s.

The only loser in deregulation has been the employees Ts & Cs.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Set up their own jetbase, get real

And that is why no other LCC in this country has their own maintenance business; it's all outsourced. Jetstar would simply do the same for line maintenance in Darwin, which is all that is provided there from what I understand.

Every player has received investment from somewhere - be it Tiger or Jetstar. Be it through infrastructure acquisition or capital injection.

If JQ's experience with outsourced maintenance providers is far from ideal, why does it work with Virgin and Tiger? Or isn't it? Keep in mind, Newcastle is in-house. It's not all outsourced unlike the others.

LCC's have greater exposure to fuel price as you've expressed. Margins are much thinner and revenue is driven by volume and ancillary revenue. That said, with regards to fuel and hedging, whether Jetstar obtains pricing procured by Qantas for fuel, it's still down to the hedging/buying teams within all the airlines who ultimately can go the right or wrong way. From what I read last year, Virgin hedged poorly whereas Qantas hedged well...

Puff - totally agree with you on the erosion of conditions. The flip-side I guess is the opportunities to work in this industry, be it crew, operational or corporate, are greater then what they were in the 'old days' and for that, I am grateful.

[oil additive]

What puff had to say above was spot on! Yep, the consumer is the winner... at the expense of safety, wages, loyalty and job satisfaction. I've been in this game for 25 years and my old man worked for TAA/Australian for 30 years and between the two of us we've seen the gradual decline in our industry. Sure, there were many lurks and perks that we engineers and pilots had in the old days that were simply ludicrous, but now that we are being driven by bean counters, safety and reliability is definately the big looser. I predict that before too long, us proud Australian aviation employees will not be able to hang our hats on our enviable safety record... I truly hope I'm proven wrong here!!!

It's time to tell the mullett and thong brigade that operating and maintaining an aircraft is an expensive business and that they need to crank up their VB Commodores or go back to purchasing a Grey Hound ticket and hit the road ya loosers :ok:

Ask the average park dweller how much they think a shiny new airliner costs to buy or lease? I've had some estimate as low as $50,000!!! Morons :ugh:

Back to the thread - 18 hours duty time is dangerous and should be stopped. What will management say when they crash their car on the way home from that sort of shift and kill themselves because they were so fatigued? Yep, you're right... this current generation of bean counter managers couldn't give a f*@k :mad: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[chockchucker]

If JQ's experience with outsourced maintenance providers is far from ideal, why does it work with Virgin and Tiger? Or isn't it? Keep in mind, Newcastle is in-house. It's not all outsourced unlike the others.


Newcastle would be fine as a heavy maint. facility for 10 A320's. Not the nearly 50 Jetstar have about the place. Jetstar have been procrastinating for the last 18 months as to where to build a second heavy maintenance facility. Mind you, they could be deliberately doing that until a cheaper and nastier option in asia presents itself. Again though, a new maintenance facility here requires investment in something other than marketing. And the bean counters who run airlines these days, that make decisions based merely on the next fiscal quarter as opposed to the next decade, can't stomach that.


As for Jetstar setting up their own line maint in Darwin, there is only one thing missing. Qualified and experienced staff willing to accept the poor pay and conditons. Unlike cabin crew and even tech crew, there is a worldwide shortage of engineers. So, the supply and demand curve certainly isn't in the favour of any LCC at the moment.Why would anybody leave any other airline or MRO for less money and worse conditions at Jetstar? If you think the answer is some 457 visas, think again. The only way for Jetstar to remedy that is for Jetstar to improve their pay and conditions to attract experienced staff (God forbid they should have their own apprentice scheme). But no, can't do that. Increase in pay and conditions erodes the coveted cost base (and managerial kpi bonus). Stuck in a catch 22. If Qantas engineering or Virgin Blue engineering decided to expand and aggressively recruit, I suspect the guys at Jetstar would jump at the chance to earn more money with better entitlements.


As for Virgin, they do all their own line maintenance these days. Jetcare no longer has the gig. Tiger, they're stuck with JHAS until they try to follow Virgin's lead I suspect.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

God forbid they should have their own apprentice scheme
I believe Jetstar does offer Engineering apprenticeships. I have seen advertisements in the past.

Jetstar Engineering does perfrom line maintenance is a number of ports. I think the exclusions are PER and DRW which are contracted to Qantas.

[chockchucker]

Jetstar Engineering does perfrom line maintenance is a number of ports. I think the exclusions are PER and DRW which are contracted to Qantas


Never said that wasn't the case (and thus fail to see your point). Although, I believe you can add ADL to the Qantas list.


As for their apprentice scheme, unlike big brother (QF), they certainly aren't going out of their way to promote it.


Back to thread-Jetstar management will undermine terms and conditions up until the unthinkable happens. Then they'll just run for cover.

[ampclamp]

Not correct. CASA do intend to introduce F&D type limits for cabin crew.

When, though is another matter .

When? Just as soon as the airlines tell them what they want and the limit will be put in place.

[porch monkey]

Touche' ! :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0198]

You're correct. ADL is also contracted to Qantas.

The apprenticeship scheme is on a much smaller scale then Qantas, however positions are advertised on the recruitment site when vacancies are available.

[juliusg]

How long have I been a flight attendant on JQ? I'm a paying pax - fullname Julius Grafton.

[Taildragger67]

Managers Perspective,

CC sitting by the door in the last few mins of a 20-hour duty; slightly dozy as the a/c taxis onto stand. Misses the doors-disarm announcement and forgets to disarm slide.

Door is later opened whilst a groundie stands outside on stairs (opener assumes door disarmed and neglects to check). Bam! Groundie is knocked backwards by inflating slide. Falls down stairs and dies from head injuries.

Leaving aside the human factors aspects of any member of crew being awake and on duty for the better part of 20 hours, you'd be happy for a person who's just worked that long straight to perhaps be heading, on their drive home, towards a zebra crossing which your kids are negotiating at the time?

Your comment about the skipper's coffee or a scotch is a cheap shot which says far more about you than the crew you are attempting to belittle with such comments. Comments like that only demonstrate that the 'manager's perspective' is to denigrate employees at all possible opportunities. Without those employees, you'd have nothing to "manage". A good manager knows the value of their employees and seeks to build them up, not engage in the sort of tear-down you've exhibited here.

:ugh:

[stubby jumbo]

We probably need to check to see if Managers Perspective has a pulse with comments like that.

Anyone ( except MP) could tell you that a TOD of 20 hours does not mean you have been awake for 20 hours !!!!. Usually its more like 30-36 hours when you factor in the time you naturally woke up /jet lag etc.

We once diverted to Stockholm on a QF1 in the northern winter. TOD was 19:55. We were like absolute zombies. In fact, I still remember the crew were laughing and giggling all the way to the Swiss Cottage Hotel........and no one had a drink !!!! We were so zonked from the flight.......we were literally "off our heads".

So Dragger your point is a good one .......what if ??????

Studies in fatigue on shift workers have been done by the Uni of South Aust. But for some reason -QF Management "duck & weave" whenever the F- word is mentioned.
God forbid.....we may have to pay the crew an extra allowance to compensate :ugh:

FOOLS:rolleyes:

[Private Patjarr]

Are these the studies which helped the invention of FAID?

FAID didn't seem that much better from what a remember!

[compressor stall]

At a mine I once worked as a contractor, the induction consisted of a discussion of fatigue. The mine would not allow people who had worked a shift longer than, IIRC, 15 hours to drive home.

The reason? Someone had done so, fallen asleep and crashed. Badly. One lawsuit later and the aforementioned policy was put in place.

Our resident trolling manager's perspective will be different when looking UP at a judge. :ouch:

[longjohn]

Could someone please explain how the payment of an allowance would reduce Fatigue levels?

[stubby jumbo]

Long John.....I was not suggesting the payment of an individual allowance to combat fatigue. This would be ridiculous.

However, it seems that whenever Crew approach management at Qantas with a Health & Safety /Fatigue issue.......they THINK we want more money.

WRONG !:ugh:

We want the issue examined, discussed and "managed" in such a way that people are not put at risk either on or off the aircraft.
The F-word is not new. It covers all industries that work at the back of the clock- on shift. But, until we can take this discussion past the EBA/$$$/trade off arena and cover it off as a "looking after our People" program....then it will be just talk and people are going to be injured.

.........and yes Fatigue Management will be a cost to the business -but ultimately it will be cheaper than a Workcover/Insurance pay out.

[Keith Myath]

Any truth in the rumour that Buchanan is off on stress leave....maybe he is getting one too many letters from concerned pax.

No, he would have to care about people and their welfare for that to be the cause. The only issue Bruce cares about is MONEY.

[Cactusjack]

Any truth in the rumour that Buchanan is off on stress leave....maybe he is getting one too many letters from concerned pax.

No unfortunately. The "Boston Kid' is off skiing in New Zealand.

[juliusg]

My REPCON about this very real crew fatigue problem at Jetstar has been acknowledged....

Dear Julius
Thank you for your report R201000083.
Personal information about the reporter and any person referred to in the report is required by legislation to be kept confidential. If you believe it would be necessary to act on information about an individual referred to in your report then you should consider reporting this directly to CASA. CASA’s confidential hotline number is 1800 074 737. Enclosed in italics below is a draft de-identified report text written from your report.

Would you please review it to ensure:

• that it is factually accurate (in case I have misunderstood something),
• that it states what you want stated
• that it is complete and makes all the points that you want made
• that it does not contain any detail which would permit a reader to identify you as the source of the report (report is required to be sent to the named parties before it can be sent to CASA).


Draft de-identified report:

The reporter expressed safety concerns that the aircraft cabin crew had conducted a return Bali flight from Melbourne to Bali to Sydney, having worked for more than eighteen hours of flight and duty time.
Reporter comment: I believe the fatigue level of the cabin crew was too high to deal with an emergency if we had one at the end of the flight. The cabin crew should overnight in Bali like the flight crew do especially as the crew rest facilities on the A330 do not seem adequate for a proper rest.

Please feel free to suggest changes. You can get back to me either by return e-mail or by telephone on 1800 020 505.

All the best

Suzanne