Why NCO's Are The Backbone Of The Military!

[SASless]

I ran across this while researching an altogether different topic and it got me to thinking....which usually is an unwise act on my part.

I took a pause over a cup of Tea and reflected upon my time in and around the various military organizations I have encountered or been part of over the years.

One salient truth seemed evident.....NCO's are the heart and soul of any military organization....they run it....and allow the officers to think they themselves do.

Everyone of us (that is honest with himself) knows that to be true and has at least one particular NCO to whom he owes his career. This is an example of just what I mean about the NCO being the "Heart and Soul".

Operation Homecoming


Most Americans welcomed the 1973 Paris Peace Accords that resulted in a cease-fire in Vietnam. Although the cease-fire was short of full victory, it seemed enough that the killing had ended and that several hundred Americans imprisoned in North Vietnam would soon be free.

By the terms of the Paris Peace Accords, the cease-fire was to become effective in Vietnam the morning of January 28, 1973, Saigon time. American prisoners in North Vietnam were to be released and the last 23,700 American troops withdrawn from Vietnam within sixty days.

Planning for Operation Homecoming, the return of the Americans held by the communists, was given to the Military Airlift Command. C-141s of the 63d Military Airlift Wing, stationed at Norton AFB, California were given the coveted responsibility for bringing out the men. On February 11, two C-130s of the TAC 374th Tactical Airlift Wing flew from Ching Chuan Kang Air Base(CC), Taiwan to Clark AB as primary and spare ships for the movement of the support team to Hanoi the next day. A second C-130 left Tan Son Nhut AB carrying members of the international commission to Hanoi oversee the repatriations. This C-130 arrived at Gia Lam Airport about one hour before the C-130 from CCK arrived.[6]

On the ground at Gia Lam the C-130 crew met the airport manager, and went indoors for tea offered by the North Vietnamese. The first of three C-141s flown in from Clark landed soon after and repatriation began.

As the first returnee moved from the release desk, one of the C-130 flight engineers quickly moved to clear the way, leading the former prisoner by the arm. Taking the cue, the other C-130 crewmen in the same way escorted each man to the waiting C-141.

Over and over, returnees expressed their deepest appreciation at having been greeted by a 'brother-in-arms' and, in those first few moments of freedom, welcomed home by their own kind. A total of 116 Americans were released at Gia Lam that day and all were flown to Clark by the C-141s.

Further releases of Americans in Hanoi followed the pattern of the first day. Releases took place on February 18 and on seven dates in March, ending with the final repatriation of the last sixty-seven men on March 29, 1973.

[vecvechookattack]

Oh dear....................

I was in total agreement with every element of this article until...... Well, I'm sure that most PPRuners will spot the bit that made me spill my beer.

[Shack37]

Oh dear....................

I was in total agreement with every element of this article until...... Well, I'm sure that most PPRuners will spot the bit that made me spill my beer.



Er..... no, do clarify for the hard of thinking please.

[Tankertrashnav]

I've been listening to this claptrap about NCO's v officers ever since I was commissioned in 1964. The theory is perpetuated by Hollywood where every junior army officer is a fool/coward/drunk etc who is propped up by a salt of the earth tough sergeant, usually called Joe, and usually from Brooklyn. Over here the officer is a chinless public school wonder whose men only follow him out of curiosity, as the old joke goes, and who relies on a grizzly NCO from Barnsley or Bermondsey to keep him out of trouble. Both stereotypes are complete parodies of the truth.

The fact is if you are comparing a newly-commissioned officer with an NCO with 10 - 15 years or so service in you are obviously going to find that the young officer is going to lean on the NCO for advice and guidance until he/she finds his/her feet (sod it, I'm going to say his,women will have to take it as read they I include them).

I certainly found myself in this position as a very young officer with my first command, but after a few years I found I could look my NCO's in the eye in the knowledge that I knew the job pretty much as well as they did. We just had different jobs to do - my sergeant's contribution was no less than my own, it was just different.

So SASless I have to disagree - NCO's are no more the heart and soul of the military than are the officers (or indeed the other ranks who havent made their first stripe yet). All play their part.

[Alphabet]

OF 3 Ranks and WO's are the backbone. Look at any Coy/Sqn/Regt/Stn/Bde HQ/DivHQ. They are the workhorses in every situation.

[vernon99]

OF 3 Ranks and WO's are the backbone. Look at any Coy/Sqn/Regt/Stn/Bde HQ/DivHQ. They are the workhorses in every situation.

You are havin' a laugh! our sqn WO used to spend his time in his office, no one really knew what he was doing, you rarely saw him around, except after lunch when his door was closed and his coat covering the window meant he was having his afternoon siesta and wasn't to be disturbed. Nice enough chap, not sure he contributed anything to the running of the Sqn, although the Sqn boss used to pop in and chat with him for a while in a morning, so he must have been some use.... rather like the Padre;)

[Samuel]

I'm going to have to disagree that SNCOs are the be-all and end-all of the organisation. Sure, they are a source of experience and advice, particularly to wet-behind-the-ears junior officers who don't know any better, and they can do things that no officer should get involved in if he's wise, but the ultimate responsibility and accountability was mine, not theirs! I was as good as any SNCO I ever served with, including the Warrant Officers' soviet which ran everything, but I ensured the respect went both ways. The NCOs are an essential part, and play an appropriate role, but they don't run the ship! Not my ship at least!

[parabellum]

Excluding the work place: In most regiments the WO's & Sgts Mess is considered to be the heart and soul of the place.

[SASless]

Funny.....the "Officers" that have enlisted servants seem to think so much of theselves. Probably a hold over from when money bought Commissions and family connections ensured retention. The expression "Lions led by Donkey's! springs to mind.

Our own US Navy has a problem with Officer arrogance....assisted by having enlisted stewards who do their house keeping and laundry quite unlike the Army and Air Force where it is a punishable offense under UCMJ.

Yes the Officer has the responsibility.....and the authority....but it is the NCO's that carry out the duties and have first line leadership for the Troops. They see the NCO as the writ and article of the military and rightfully so.

[Samuel]

Cobblers mate! I went through the ranks and was commissioned the hard way, so I know from personal experience that your analogies are utter nonsense. NCOs are an important part of the command chain and no one who has ever served in any capacity would deny that, but "enlisted servants?" Complete and utter bolleaux! It's a team effort, but the buck in my experience most certainly didn't stop at any SNCO under me.

I also once took the blame for two SNCOs who had been falsely accused, then took it to a much higher authority , and won. So I've been there, done that...

[acmech1954]

In my experiance I cannot see how any officer can be effective without S/NCO's. The officer of any rank is normaly only in post for for around 2 years, and yes he can gain SOME knowledge, but the WO's and Snco's will probably have 3 or 4 or more times time served in that particular area, especially engineering. I will admit that this is less of a problem now than we had a larger selection of aircraft.
The biggest problem I can remember were new O/C arriving with 'new' ideas, that had been tried before, advised why they could/did not work but still insisting on them being carried out, only to revert within days/weeks because they still did not work.
For these officers who believe that THEY run their sections/flights/squadrons, give the WO and S/NCOs a few weeks off, then see how they get on !!

[Pontius Navigator]

Cobblers mate! I went through the ranks and was commissioned the hard way, so I know from personal experience that your analogies are utter nonsense. NCOs are an important part of the command chain and no one who has ever served in any capacity would deny that, but "enlisted servants?" Complete and utter bolleaux! It's a team effort, but the buck in my experience most certainly didn't stop at any SNCO under me.

Samuel, I note where you're from. Went in to Amberley once. My uncle, first time I had seen him, and an ex-digger, had been given permission to meet us.

He was on the apron when the door opened. I think he expected us officers to dismount, riding boots and swagger sticks, while the 'man' (we only had two crew chiefs) did the work.

Instead he was amazed how we all piled in, panel opening, power conections, fuelling hose etc etc while we all did the rapid turn round.

So for some it probably hasn't changed; for others it is only team work that makes it work.

But then there are WOs.

[goudie]

In my experience I cannot see how any officer can be effective without S/NCO's.
I believe it's called chain of command. The effectiveness of NCO's is dependent on them being a link in the chain, supported by a higher authority.

[Q-RTF-X]

Reading through this thread has given me some time for thought and reflection. I did a tour in the early 70’s on a lightning squadron based in Cyprus. On joining the squadron I was a humble corporal armament fitter who, after a spell in the hangar, was sent to work on line. We did composite turn-round servicing in those days a team compromising NCO i/c, Man A, Man B and Man C. Man C was always an armament man anyhow so in most instances I wore two hats, NCO i/c and Man C. The team spirit was superb, excellent turn-around times were standard sometimes involving wheel or brake unit changes along with all the other requirements to launch a hot ship ready for action. Pilots sometimes sat in the cockpit while all the activity took place and on other occasions there was a pilot swap while everything was happening around them. Line SNCO’s were generally to be found in the line office overseeing activity and clearing documents as required occasionally venturing outside to cast a passing eye on things or a judgment on technical issues. The Junior Engineering Officer was a frequent visitor, a youngish guy who came to swim in the pool of experience the line team exuded throughout their shift and the Senior Engineer was never far away either. Extra manpower and assistance was readily available from the hanger teams. Towards the end of my tour I was promoted to Sergeant and remained on the Line Team as a Shift NCO. Throughout my time on the squadron EVERYBODY PULLED TOGETHER, from TOP TO BOTTOM and also LATTERALLY. We had a great bunch of pilots (both young and inexperienced and older more sage individuals) who understood what was happening and knew enough of the challenges faced by us grunts to let us get on with what we knew best how to accomplish. Good engineering officers who knew every tradesman by name and were active at all levels along with knowledgeable SNCO’s. Junior NCO’s were given real responsibilities and junior technicians and airmen tradesmen respected and encouraged. It was a superb tour of duty in a professional well run military environment. EVERYBODY played a part. Slackers and incompetents were as much as possible isolated, their annual assessments ultimately reflecting their weaknesses.

In a properly run unit everybody is a competent or is encouraged either to improve or be removed. If there is a shambles somewhere along the line that requires SNCO’s to continually support a weak or incompetent officer then there is a serious breakdown of oversight from the next highest level of authority.

During my service I did by contrast to the original starting point of this thread come across a few SNCO’s who were (IMHO) a complete and total waste of rations. Such individuals were in fact to be found at all levels, from quite high-up to the very bottom.

PS – On that particular squadron we played pretty damn hard also :E

[timex]

What SNCO's do provide(on the whole) is a depth of knowledge, and an ability to provide continuity in any Unit.

[endplay]

After 40 years service, 29 as a SNCO/WO, I concluded that both officers and NCOs have their place. The officer (I set baby ones to one side at this point) to decide on the strategic direction of his bit of the organisation and the NCO cadre to take the tactical approach and get there. As a WO you tend to have a foot in both camps. Even CAS has a CASWO. The problems occur when the roles are confused. As the saying goes "there's nothing more dangerous than an officer with a map." Tell your Sgt where you want to be (don't ask him) then lead him from behind.

[RedhillPhil]

My Pa was a Flight Sargeant for the last twelve years of his service. He was the most bigotted, lazy, self-opinionated bullying loudmouth that I've ever known. How he was supposed to inspire leadership I'll never know.

[goudie]

Picking up from the experience of Q-RTF-X I joined a Sqdn , as a cpl/tech, at Akrotiri in the early 60's, where the servicing organisation was a complete shambles. No Flt / Sgt or WO (The previous F/S had suffered a nervous breakdown and been sent home.) just a very worn out Ch/ Tech trying to keep things going until a replacement arrived. Moral was at rock bottom. Flt /Sgt Arther xxxxx duly arrived, took one look at the situation and after a meeting with the (new) CO got things moving. He had all the groundcrew together told us what he was going to do and what he expected from us, in no uncertain terms. In short, he transformed the set-up, got rid of a few Sgt's, shift system in place, accountability to all NCO'S etc., and in doing so improved servicing efficiency and moral no-end. Was he doing an officers job? No, just doing what a good SNCO is paid to do, with the backing of his CO.

[Samuel]

A true tale from the Land of the Long White Cloud.

Junior pilot goes to the line office, all kitted up to fly, and greets the SNCO present, who is head down into the paperwork with : "Is my frame ready Chief?"

Without looking up from said paperwork, Chief replies, " It's not your frame, it's mine until such time as I loan it to you,which isn't right now so bugger off......"

[SASless]

Redhill.....by chance were you a bit rebellious in yer youth? Some say perception is truth but not always!

[clunckdriver]

I dont think that most Brits are qualified to take an impartial take on this discussion, your rank structure and military traditions are so intertwined with whats left of your class system that it is impossible for most of you to comment on the validity of the proposition made by the first poster , this is not slagging your system, just an observation from one who during my service came into close contact with your military who to a person were extreamly good at their jobs, be it on water, in the air or in the mud. The WW2 spat between the RAF and RCAF over comisioning aircrew was just one manifestation of this gulf between our societies.

[Tourist]

This is a bizarre thread to have on an aviation forum.
People are talking here as if the officer is leading his troops in to battle with the NCOs making sure he doesn't screw up.
That is not aviation.

A backbone of a tristar crew is not a hostie.
A tornado pilot is not mothered by some grizzled SNCO
A junglie pilot is not taught the ropes by the aircrewman. (maybe in the bar)
I know what Timex means about continuity, but that was on just one strange Sqn, now unfortunately changed forever and it was not the rank that gave them the depth of knowledge, just the longevity. (AAC may still be that way inclined)
A baby pilot/observer etc turns up front line with much to learn, but it certainly is not taught by an NCO nowadays

The backbone of the RAF, FAA and AAC is the 3rd to 8th tour gash shag aircrew of whatever rank/rate with no career to chase not some fatherly figure NCO. They are the real continuity.

[pasir]

For examples of Officer incompetence look no further than the British defeat in British Malaya and Singapore.

While no doubt many individual acts of bravery went unrecorded by officers and other ranks - much of the main reason for the defeat can be laid at the feet of its officers - up to C in C level incuding RAF command.

Such was the shame of the defeat that Churchill promised there would
be an investigation after the war - however the whole affair was
swept under the carpet - probably because of the level of incompetence
that would have been exposed - both within Whitehall but especially
within military high command.

As a final act of dubious integrity the High Command issued an order to all ranks - 'No British military will attempt to escape' -
This order contributed to the capture and incarceration of almost the entire garrison for years under a cruel barbaric foe.

...

[SASless]

Tourist,

I started the thread....posted an article about an Air Force NCO setting the example for Officers and other NCO's. Your comments have some validity but the suggestion this topic has naught to do with aviation is far from valid I suggest. It started with the actions of an aircrewman and NCO which I pointed out as being an example of why NCO's play such a special role in every military organization.

[Pontius Navigator]

For examples of Officer incompetence look no further than the British defeat in British Malaya and Singapore.
...

I was priviledged to serve there about 20 years later and n many respects the conditions were unchanged - I don't mean command and leadership but communications.

We then had a regular transport schedule that only took a few days to reach Singapore vice troopships of old, but we still relied on signals traffic both to UK and within theatre. The telephone system was leaky in the extreme.

The infrastructure was being improved but the in-theatre equipment was second-rate and reliant on reinforcement from UK and RAFG. Later one squadron of Lightnings and two sqns of Bloodhounds provided a more modern defence but certainly not a strong defence or defence in depth.

Before the Japanese entry in to the war it was probably unrealistic to expect Britain to build up significant forces in a theatre at peace when at the same time fighting for survival in Europe.

Then, as now, too little spread too thinly.

Back to thread - SNCOs can also be more rigid in their outlook as you cannot be blamed if you stick by the rules rather than exercise initiative and get dumped on.

I remember a Sgt Nav long ago who was 'useless' in the extreme as an Ops Officer until I learnt that as a young firebrand he had been dumped upon big time for exceeding his authority.

[tornadoken]

pasir: the Wiki entry for Arthur Percival is valuable, though not itself making the point that water for >1Mn. Empire subjects of the King came from reservoirs captured in Johore Bahru. If Percival had resisted in urban guerrilla style, as instructed, Singapore would still have fallen to the Imperial Navy, following Force Z' demise. The invader would not have been on bicycles, but on foot, scrambling over civilian cadavers. There is no link between officer incompetence (Lions, donkeys), Malaya, 1941 and a proposition in a 2010 Aero thread on the anatomy of "the Military". British (and other) professional military Services have few passengers.

[Pontius Navigator]

I dont think that most Brits are qualified to take an impartial take on this discussion, your rank structure and military traditions are so intertwined with whats left of your class system that it is impossible for most of you to comment on the validity of the proposition made by the first poster , this is not slagging your system, just an observation from one who during my service came into close contact with your military who to a person were extreamly good at their jobs, be it on water, in the air or in the mud.

Breath taking.

Rank and military structure is one thing but how do you draw that into what is left of our class system?

In the RAF the officer class is based entirely on ability and merit. An oik may become an officer by virtue of education and ability. In the Army too I know many OR promoted to Lt Col.

[Tankertrashnav]

Concurred PN. I know the cousins think that British officers wear monocles and tweeds and talk like John Mills on speed, but I'm surprised that a Canuck is so out of date. Even serving on a squadron of around 50 aircrew in the 70's, only a handful had been to public school (went to a Northern grammar school myself), and a good third had come up through the ranks from NCO aircrew. Possibly it will be year or two yet before a Guards officer speaks in a gorblimey accent, but give it time!

[BEagle]

Bit of a pointless thread, this one.

People are people, good and bad. There is no way that any particular segment can consider themselves, or be considered by others, to be the 'Backbone of the Military'.

[Shack37]

In the RAF the officer class is based entirely on ability and merit. An oik may become an officer by virtue of education and ability.


Concur but have come across good and bad examples from both career structures.

BTW I think you've spelt erk incorrectly.:)

[Pontius Navigator]

Shack, no, but I admit I chose oik as I had used the same term in a different forum

If you refer to someone as an oik, you think that they behave in a rude or unacceptable way, especially in a way that you believe to be typical of a low social class.

Which I believe is more classist in keeping with what our colonial friend had in mind.

[dallas]

In my experience the NCO cadre don't so much run things as limit the damage caused by some officers who pop in for a 2-year tour. I have found NCOs to be [generally] the apolitical constant and notwithstanding some generic weak points, tend to have more collective integrity, having not sold their souls to the devil for a commission. Generally speaking NCOs can't be bought; similarly placed officers are far rarer.

[pasir]

T.ken: Sadly it is indisputable that the Officer class on Singapore island
played a major role in 'The worst disaster in British military history'.
The seeds leading to the shameful defeat and surrender being sown years earlier - The threat of water shortages you mention only coming
much later - towards the days of final surrender.

During the vital years prior to Japans sneak attack RAF officer corps
sanctioned building of new airfields in jungle or coastal areas virtually impossible to defend from ground attack - without consulting the army C in C. - probably because Singapores army and airforce 'werent talking to each other'.

Officers would be more keen on arranging cricket and other
recreational sports instead of encouringing jungle training - The only unit taking jungle training seriously (51st Highlanders) had its CO regarded by felow officers as 'eccentric' !

The one officer fully aware of the Japanese threat and showing great integrity - Major Hayley Bell (Intelligence) - had his reports ignored
and was looked upon as a nuisance - resulting in Percival having him recalled to the UK.

Brook-Popham RAF - Despite there being no modern fighter a/c in
Malaya BP turned down offers of Spits or Hurricanes - Instead these were then despatched to a sullen ungrateful USSR where it is said most were left
to rot in their crates on docksides. Only when Singapores battle was almost over did 50 new crated fighter a/c arrive - Minus props it is said.

Gen. Percival refused to have trenches or defences prepared in the 'Fortress' - as it would be quote - "Bad for native moral".

As stated Whitehall - including Churchill were also seriously implicated in the disaster.

...

[Pontius Navigator]

Spits or Hurricanes - Instead these were then despatched to a sullen ungrateful USSR where it is said most were left
to rot in their crates on docksides. ...

I believe this is incorrect. They certainly were uncrated and put to operational use. I met one of the hurricane pilots last year in London. They were responsible for getting the aircraft operational before eventually handing them over.

There was also a long article in Air Power about the Hurricane Wing.

They certainly saw action rather than remain crated on the dockside.

[Samuel]

Pasir, there is a considerable degree of hyperbole in your comment, and perhaps your reading of the subject is a little out of date. More modern historians would suggest the loss of Singapore was due to acts of sensational stupidity rather than piecemeal ineptitude by any group of individuals. The overriding factor was nothing to do with the topic of this thread by the way.

There were over forty operational Hurricanes in Singapore latterly, flown in from HMS Indomitable. Quite a few were flown to Sumatra when the operational airfields in Singapore became untenable.

[Samuel]

I quite like "oik"; it is more specifically descriptive than "erk":ok:

[goudie]

I quite like "oik"; it is more specifically descriptive than "erk"http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
If the cap fits................:)

[Shack37]

Then again, oik could be Brooklyn for erk?

Warning, thread drift: has anybody else notice the (declared) ages of those posting on this thread?

I thought you had to be under teenage to use a computer.:sad:

[minigundiplomat]

Met some particularly crap officers in my time, but I've met some equally inept SNCO's too. Personality and ability are partly genetic, partly determined by life experience etc.... not by a badge.

The example given at the start of the thread clearly showed a NCO going above and beyond (least I think so, my attention span wandered a little) but it could have quite easily been an officer.

What has suprised me is the number of posts from officers questioning the role/importance of SNCO's.

If your SNCO's aren't performing to your level of satisfaction, could it be you are failing to lead and 'motivate' effectively?

[matkat]

I think this is a rather pointless argument, no one is more important than anyone else so an NCO has 10 or 15 years experience that of course is commendable but we seem to have forgotten that they were once junior ranks so therefore depended on other for guidance it's all about teamwork. I was never commisioned but left as a cpl after 13 years service I have been in civil aviation for over 21 years and am now in a position of being a G/Cpt equivalent could I do this without support from people under and above? absolutely no way as I said it's team work whether military or civilian it does not matter.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

There is no way that any particular segment can consider themselves, or be considered by others, to be the 'Backbone of the Military'.

I am sure you are correct, but at every dining-in night in the WO and Sgts' Mess that I have attended, and there have been many over the years, the guest speaker, of the officer variety, always declares that the SNCO is indeed the "backbone of the service".

Similar statements are made at every opportunity to butter-up the SNCOs and make them feel appreciated, especially during the sh*tty times. Most SNCOs know this and they know their own worth. They may not totally run the show but they do have the experience and the contacts to make things happen.

Personally I have come across good and bad officers and SNCOs.


Aaron.

[Samuel]

Shack: age is merely a number, and in my xcase the three score and ten came as a helluva surprise I can tell you, and yes I had noticed the ages, which is why I've just added mine!:O

MGD: I haven't questioned the role/importance of NCOs; to the contrary I think they are every bit as important as the officers myself included, but in the end it comes down to reponsibility and I personally would never presume I was more important than anyone else merely because of rank. I do however, carry the can!

[clunckdriver]

Pontius and Tanker, sorry to be so late replying, have been away flying, so you would have me belive that your "Royals" are treated exactly as any other aircrew wanabe, no preference given? As one who was told by a Brit Lt Cmdr who made bloody sure he never flew of a deck that our Canadian Commisions were only " Colonial, and dont count" I have a bit of a problem believing you, I have no clue as to the relative merits of your various school systems from which officers may come, if you want to see how it should work I would sugest a look at the IAF might help. Its interesting that in Canada we now have almost one source of officers, RMC, the decline in quality is plain to see, no longer is each pilot course made up of a cross section of the military, the present very public bolicking of senior officers is the result of this lack of a larger gene pool, the US Navy being the worst example of this.Maybe your services will in a few years be more egalitarian than ours, time will tell.

[NUFC1892]

Quote:
There is no way that any particular segment can consider themselves, or be considered by others, to be the 'Backbone of the Military'.
I am sure you are correct, but at every dining-in night in the WO and Sgts' Mess that I have attended, and there have been many over the years, the guest speaker, of the officer variety, always declares that the SNCO is indeed the "backbone of the service".

Similar statements are made at every opportunity to butter-up the SNCOs and make them feel appreciated, especially during the sh*tty times. Most SNCOs know this and they know their own worth


I have heard and been told this too many times; it is complete patronising bullsh!t and generally recognised as such. Those misguided, self important individuals that believe it probably don't deserve whatever it is they are wearing on their epaulettes.

[Pontius Navigator]

clunck,

Don't doubt the validity of your opinion but I would question its basis. When did you meet this Lt Cdr?

If your age is true it must be some time ago.

You mention your small gene pool and single source of officers. Well we have a similar single source system albeit one for each service. We used to have multiple streams just for each Service.

The vast majority of RAF aircrew 50 years ago - your vintage - came through the oik system. Entry between 17-25 and 4 months basic training before being taught to aviate. Definitely not your officer class but some fine officer material there nine the less.

[Pontius Navigator]

officers questioning the role/importance of SNCO's.

If your SNCO's aren't performing to your level of satisfaction, could it be you are failing to lead and 'motivate' effectively?

MGD, I take yr point sort of, but you are really talking of a poor SNCO. A good SNCO or officer will be good despite the leadership as well as because of the leadership. The selection process is pretty good but some will still scrape through.

I believe you know a particular SNCO I have in mind and he was a classic poor SNCO - SNCO by aptitude and qualification and not by ability, initiative and leadership qualities.

[clunckdriver]

Pontius, regretfully the age is correct, a point brought home yesterday after four hours of hand flying in rather soggy conditions! As for the Lt Cmdr, the encounter was in London UK about 1959, so I gues that is a long time ago! In my dealings with British forces the NCOs who made the greatest impresion on me were the ex Halton "Brats", given a screwdiver and a wrench these guys could fix anything, as well as having the ability to keep a whole crew motivated in the most difficult conditions, I understand this system is now a thing of the past, if so its a bloody shame.Lets agree to differ on our perceptions of the various social orders in our two nations, having just watched the destruction in Toronto by a mob of young punks maybe its time to get some of our retired Drill NCOs out of retirment to fix things, Regards Clunck.

[StopStart]

This thread is an unmitigated load of cobblers.

May I suggest this be moved to the Aviation History & Nostalgia board where most of the posted opinions belong?

Right, I'm off to birch an airman.

[SASless]

Seems to me some of us are trying to use the "exceptions" rather than the "rule" to prove their case. No system is perfect and there are always a few that fail to measure up. But....don't we do a dis-service to the vast majority that prove the "rule" by using the few that don't measure up.

Those critical of the thesis of my initial post are the ones that appear guilty of this mistake in my less than humble opinion.

As to moving the thread to any forum but the RAF forum seems to be a common fault hereabouts. I thought this was a "military aircrew" forum and not uniquely for RAF posters. Perhaps there ought to be such a forum modelled after the Airline Forums.

[clunckdriver]

" Unmitigated load of cobblers?" Could someone explain WTH this means? Cant for the life of me understand what fixing footwear has to do with this thread, Queens English ? Or the latest catch phrase from some TV show?

[SOSL]

#29 - well said, Beags, couldn't have put it better myself.

#40 - matkat, ditto.

clunkdriver - things have changed in the UK (the class system still exists but most of us see it as museum piece) and the armed forces have changed; the current pace of operations and lack of resources mean that everyone pulls together. So cheer up, chum, in some ways it's better over here than it was when you were here.

[clunckdriver]

SOSAL, Glad to hear that, but it seems English has also changed, please explain what the heck the "Cobblers" is all about, thanks, Clunck.

[JMP6]

Beagle is right.

The backbone of the military is the military. Plenty of great SNCOs, plenty of crap ones and everything in between, same with Officers, same with JRs.



Edited due to typing pigs.

[SOSL]

Best you ask SS

[Ken Scott]

For our Canadian friend, 'a load of old Cobblers' is actually cockney rhyming slang for testicles ("cobbler's awls" = "balls" = "testicles").

So it means the same as "you're talking bollocks".

Hope that helps!

[sycamore]

Clunck, try `googling `Cockney rhyming slang` for cobblers and other quaint expressions...

[StopStart]

Bless you all for your assistance. Here it is, Ready-Googled for you:

A load of cobblers

Meaning

Nonsense, rubbish.

Origin

This is a classic of Cockney rhyming slang. It has nothing directly to do with shoemakers but originates from cobbler's awls, which are the pointed hand-tools that cobblers use to pierce holes in leather. The rhyme is with balls, or testicles.

The phrase is often reduced just to cobblers, which is now considered an acceptable vulgarism, as many may not be aware of its origin. 'Cobblers' sounds as though it might have been said by cheeky Victorian barrow boys in Dickens or similar. In fact, isn't as old as it might sound and didn't begin being used until the mid 20th century. The earliest example of it that I've found in print, bearing in mind that it probably existed as street slang for some time before printed versions appeared, is from Philip Allingham's Cheapjack, his account of life amongst English market traders and fairground stall-holders, which was published in 1934:

"The Cobbler is even more simple. It is a ball game..‘cobbler’ is the slang for ball."

The first example of the full phrase 'a load of cobblers' that I can find is from the British popular music magazine Melody Maker, October 1968:

"Geno Washington says Grapefruit's recent attack on the Maryland Club, Glasgow, was 'a load of cobblers'. They are one of the best audiences in Britain, says Geno."

And for those struggling to read between the lines, this thread should be moved to AH&N, not because its nothing to do with the RAF but because many of the opinions expressed here seem to have been formed and thus belong in history :rolleyes:

But just to placate you all, here is a picture of one of our SNCOs out on the line, keeping the RAF on it's feet:

http://www.fivestarcomics.com/knightwolf/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/sgt_rock.jpg

And here's one of his officers dealing with a similar challenge:

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/blog/baby-crying%20jpg.jpg

Right, I'm off to get one of the men to carry my bags. And stable my horse. Then I can motor "dine to tine" for cocktails with Bertie, Squiffy and Wibbly before taking the rest of the week off at Mater & Pater's pile in Hampers. Might even get the beaters to whip up some trade and see if we can't go out and shoot some of the working classes.
Sgt Mutton-Chops can sort the men out in my absence.
Pip pip.

[Pontius Navigator]

Right, I'm off to get one of the men to carry my bags.

Actually where I found this alive and well was in India. In just a few days I got used to arriving at the hotel, the driver would stop under the portico, my door would be opened and I would alight.

Any parcels, packets, or papers would then be collected and carried for me to the doorman who would, in turn, hand them to the bell boy who would, if it had been required, carry them to my suite.

Sad to say, I was not staying in the hotel but merely using it as an RV.

Now that was style.

[pasir]

....

It is not disclosed if an NCO was involved however the following ancedote relates to an inscription upon the gravestone in Calcutta
of Capt J Butler who was accidentally shot dead by his batman -

"Well done though good and faithful servant"

...

[goudie]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that, in the RAF, it's the officers who in the main, actually fight the war. I think this is most commendable.

StopStart, that liney has just got to be a 'fairy'

[Lonewolf_50]

Has? SASless, when was the last time that there were stewards assigned to a ship? What's your point of reference? I am not sure what you are referring to.

[SASless]

Sgt Rock.....a famous US Army Hero if there ever was one!


http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/sgtrock.jpg

[oldgrubber]

As an “oik” I have to say that although I agree that a commission is within the

grasp of anyone who really wants it, 32 years of lower deck living have
convinced me of several truths.
1/ Officers are good at crisis management. NCOs don’t let the crisis occur in
the first place. (stir)
2/ officers come up with trendy catchphrases, NCOs are required to interpret
them and put them into action. (stir, stir)
3/ Some of the most obnoxious officers I have encountered have been ex lower
deck, some of the re-inventions have been so extreme I found myself wondering
if I imagined knowing the person previously.
4/ Value your experienced personnel, be they officer, junior or senior rate, I
never ignore input.

The watering down of technical training within the FAA to align trade
specialisations with RAF/Army has left a huge knowledge gap in the full
supervisory/Petty Officer bracket. They are now “AETs”, which in the opinion
of many old mechanics like myself, are neither fish nor fowl. In previous
years I knew that my tame “Tiffy” would blend, bend and rivet my broken cab,
these days I wouldn’t trust an AET to file his nails.
We have a situation where AEOs often don’t have the basic system knowledge I
would expect from their position, often they appear to be driven by the
aircrew to “give a timescale”, rather than provide “top cover” for their
engineers. (pushonitis)
I remember going to a very high level meeting “up country” (it’s all “up” from
pasty land), I attended in civvies but most of the rest wore uniform (there
were a lot of officers). After a lengthy meeting and an excellent
presentation from the civvy vendor, the numerous officers from every naval
outpost decided on one conclusive decision; to have another meeting! (does
backbone equal decision making?)
are the NCOs the backbone? well if they are, then the Junior Rates are the
muscle and sinew, which should by default make the Officer Corp the nerves
that transmit the instructions to act. If you look at it like that it’s easy
to identify we are a team, as well as the weak areas in the team when it all goes pear shaped.

Cheers now

[Fareastdriver]

SASless. I must congratulate you. You certainly pulled in some big ones with this thread.

[vernon99]

StopStart, that liney has just got to be a 'fairy'

Oh come on for a start he is out of the crewroom, secondly his uniform is torn, and thirdly it looks like his hands are dirty. Now unless said fairy has lost his way to the crewroom, ended up out on the line and fallen over!

It is obviously an old school FLM/ramp tramp.

[Pontius Navigator]

Then of course there was Bilko.

[It's Not Working]

and Radar.

[SOSL]

With respect, You may not have got the whole picture. RAF officers are the ones who fly the aeroplanes. They are not the only ones in the RAF who face the enemy.

[goudie]

SOSL Point taken but I did say 'in the main' and it was a a tongue in cheek remark

BTW I was in 'the picture' for 20 yrs or so.

[SOSL]

Much respect - didn't mean to be confrontational!

[goudie]

SOSL Me neither:ok:

Vernon99 He must be a fairy, for the very reasons you state. That's why he looks tired and emotional!

Sorry for thread drift,

[clunckdriver]

WARNING, THREAD DRIFT!To those of you who guided me to the web sites to translate Cockney into Canuckdum thank you! Both amusing and entertaining, now if I can just figure out "Tootlepip" I will have it made, again thanks!

[The Oberon]

Not definitive by any stretch of the imagination but probably from the french "Toute a l'heure", see you later.

[sitigeltfel]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that, in the RAF, it's the officers who in the main, actually fight the war.The officers arrive some thousands of feet above the action, drop their ordnance, then return to base. The grunts on the ground who called in the strike, sometimes only yards from the enemy, are the ones who are really fighting the war.

[Pontius Navigator]

The officers arrive some thousands of feet above the action, drop their ordnance, then return to base. The grunts on the ground who called in the strike, sometimes only yards from the enemy, are the ones who are really fighting the war.

Unless you are in front of a Matra Magique mon amis.

And some times those on the ground have been known to take exception on death from the skies.

Crass comment Sir.

[Al R]

The officers arrive some thousands of feet above the action, drop their ordnance, then return to base. The grunts on the ground who called in the strike, sometimes only yards from the enemy, are the ones who are really fighting the war.

'Crass' is the word PN.

As part of a TACP, the air we sometimes needed, would tip in only a few feet higher than us (well, not really, but you get the idea) and I seem to recall certain Vodka, Magnet and Bottle callsigns taking some of the heat as well. And are you saying that the 55,000 who died in Bomber Command were.. well, only playing at fighting the war?

Anyway. Who cares about who is the backbone? As well as just the spine, any machine needs a heart, a lung and a brain (we have Loadmasters, so the stomach and intestines are catered for). Lets not forget that.

[Clockwork Mouse]

When I joined the Army, many years ago, I was as inexperienced as it is possible to be. I was part of a cost cutting experiment to see if mature university graduates who passed the Regular Commissions Board selection could be turned into effective officers without going to Sandhurst. So I joined my infantry battalion in Germany and was given command of a rifle platoon without having had any formal military training. Incredible!

In addition to my platoon sergeant, my CO gave me a senior Colour Sergeant as my advisor. These two wonderful men held my hand (figuratively) for my first two years, protected me from damaging my men or myself, and through their loyalty, patience, understanding, wisdom and experience in the end produced a passable officer who went on to command.

The experiment, politically driven, was ludicrous and thankfully short lived. It succeeded in my case only because of two excellent SNCOs, who I must say are typical of the quality of NCO we had and still have in the British Army and, I am sure, in the other Armed Services. But from day one the responsibility for my platoon was mine and the buck stopped with me, because I was the officer.

Any military unit is a team. We are all cogs with a crucial and responsible position in a delicately balanced, finely tuned machine, developed through decades, often centuries, of careful thought, wise experimentation and a fair amount of bitter experience. If one cog fails, the effectiveness of the whole machine is degraded and the consequences can be much more catastrophic than in a civilian organisation. That is why everyone in the military has to be and is so special.

Use on a military forum of the old stereotypes of donkeys, lions, oiks and chinless wonders is immature and unworthy of anyone associated with the military but it is, of course, believed and made use of by the ignorant and the media who have no personal experience of it. I am very proud that I was a soldier and that I had the immense privilege to have served with and led soldiers of all ranks, commissioned and non-commissioned.

[Al R]

Well said.

(That experiment was bizarre)

[An Teallach]

Having been on both sides of the fence, welcome back chat with my Coy Cdr on returning from Sandhurst:

"Aah AT, wecome back. Before you went to Sandhurst you knew that the Sgts ran the Army. Now you know that's not quite true. However, it'd be a fecking stupid officer who told the Sgts that!"

[Pontius Navigator]

Al R, you may also remember the green-shield flt lts. That too was an idiocy, straight from training as a flt lt. Naturally the troops took them at face value and assumed experience whereas with a baby fg off WYSWWYG.

[grantj]

i based my long and illustrious service career on that man bilko, and it served me very well !

[Wander00]

PN - or in my case as the only Plt Off aviator in Signals Command (for a short time).

[Pontius Navigator]

PN - or in my case as the only Plt Off aviator in Signals Command (for a short time).

Qualified?

Remember once being terrified by a fully fledged pilot officer pilot of an RNZAF Dakota. The A4 drivers did the return trip by road!

[davejb]

Actually...
I'm far from convinced, and I'm an ex NCO. (Thanks to downbanding exercises that decided a WO from PSF was qualified to comment on aircrew duties - I'd have been a WO otherwise <g>)

Some officers are idiots, some NCOs are idiots. Generally speaking the first decade tends to winnow the idiots out, so by the age of 30 or so you have good NCOs and good officers. What's left tends to be quite useable.

Unfortunately, some idiots remain past that point due to the vagaries of the service, and some idiot NCOs even get promoted to become idiot officers, but that's life, whilst other idiot NCOs become older idiot NCOs, and some idiot officers become idiot senior officers - this is really the only difference, an idiot NCO tends to stay at the same rank whilst the up or out aspect of officership means some bloody stupid Flt Lts become Sqn Ldrs.

Let's face it, everyone knows who is reliable and a good troop, and who are the bookends. Compared to civvy life (I assure you) the RAF remains a lean, mean, fighting machine... until then a good officer is worth his weight in gold, as is a good NCO, and I very much doubt that the percentages show one subset is more prevalent than the other.

FWIW, if I think really hard about who the most sensible chap I ever met was, then he was an NCO - but I think the officers had the advantage if you graphed 'commonsense v time since recruitment'.

[gijoe]

Ditto Secret1

DaveJB hits the nail on the head.

MT WO aged 50 BZN circa 1996 or so who thought he was untouchable - :hmm:

The number of NCOs and Offrs that are walking around with CGCs, MCs etc - :ok:

It takes all sorts.

G:ok:

[glad rag]

Or to put it another way, if NCOs are the Backbone of the military, then why do they NOT accrue the same pension rights?

Answers on the proverbial postcard folks......:ouch::ouch:

[Army Mover]

Or to put it another way, if NCOs are the Backbone of the military, then why do they NOT accrue the same pension rights?
Probably because it's the officers who make the rules; kind of like turkeys voting for Xmas eh ? :E

[J52]

The truth of the matter is that it is not NCOs or officers that are the most important. From my own time in the RNZAF it was the baggies, the only ones still sober or around after lunch to carry on working.

The NCOs got tanked at the Corporals or Sergeants messes, the officers have done the same or gone off golfing. I lost count where NCOs would come back from the mess loaded and then start ripping parts off planes and not being able to remember what they had done the next day, where the process would repeat itself from 3pm onwards till the off at 5pm.

[barnstormer1968]

I have been looking at this thread for a while, and coming from a green background, I can't help but think this question will have differing answers for each service.

But, having met many good and bad officers and NCO's can I offer an alternative suggestion (possibly biased by my background):

Personnel who are natural leaders, good decision makers, and know their own and their comrades capabilities are the backbone of the military.

I have encountered many NCO's and officers who I considered as lazy, inept and suffering from a complete lack of military ability (all in the same person), but have also met NCO's and officers who I would follow over the edge of a cliff (based on the fact it must be the correct/only/best thing to do at that time, in their wise judgement).

[Pontius Navigator]

The truth of the matter is that it is not NCOs or officers that are the most important. From my own time in the RNZAF it was the baggies, the only ones still sober or around after lunch to carry on working.

The NCOs got tanked at the Corporals or Sergeants messes, the officers have done the same or gone off golfing. I lost count where NCOs would come back from the mess loaded and then start ripping parts off planes and not being able to remember what they had done the next day, where the process would repeat itself from 3pm onwards till the off at 5pm.

Ah, day's of yore before there was a war.

[davejb]

Seemed to me that around 1990 or so the bar lunch went out of fashion...at least the club sandwich, chips, and three pints turned into club, chips, diet coke...

Around that time I went back through the OCU as a knackered old man, pitied by the young studes who would sit on my knee hoping for a Werther's original whilst trying to ignore the embrocation fumes - I was a very old man, well into my thirties, at the time. (An even older wet man kept me company on the course, it took us a while to realise that at 'Grab a Granny' nights we were, in fact, the targets rather than the hunters...)

PT* was something you avoided, post 1990 it became something you had to beat people with a big stick to stop them doing. Sgts agonised about terms of service, take the crown and give up reserved rights, or be a well paid ocatgenarian sgt? Lots of attitudes changed back then - and lunchtime sessions went the way of the Dodo, except for a few who, it turned out, were themselves Dodos....


(*Most mornings, as I head off to work, I now have to negotiate my way past the RAF Kinloss Tour De France racing team, who seem to have cornered the 'taking up most of the road with a bloody treader at 20 mph' market, whilst doing a natty line in sharkskin patterned hi vis Lycra cycling attire.... now in my day a pair of bike clips was considered 'overly professional', so feel free to stop it and take the bus or drive....is EVERYONE a budding PTI these days?)

[Pontius Navigator]

davejb, a masterly diversion but spot for all that.

New to the game a couple of decades earlier it seemed that everything ended in ex, including endex.

Trackex, torpex and loadex were soon mastered but there were other super secret ones that it took a while to master. These were exercises designed and wholly managed by the SNCOs and duly programmed on the flypro as such. Those I have in mind were Crownex and Stablex.

Unfortunately tacevals and that scourge of the Air Force in the 80s - barbed wire - eventually killed them off.

[davejb]

Crownex I'd go for - although my favourite was that place on the beach, can't remember the name, it closed years ago....

One other difference between NCOs and O's - when you hit a "b*ggeration factor" in some planned event, then if an O had planned it you were probably looking at something that was a genuine mistake, or it was so lacking in Machiavellian (sp?) intent that a 6 year old could avoid it, whereas one planned by an NCO would be designed to rip the heart from a saint. I much preferred to be *'d about by officers, there was less malevolence most of the time....they also reacted differently when you chose not to play.

(Taceval rock officer to young Sgt Aircrew in HAS - 'and in the desert what oil will you use to lubricate your Browning Sgt?' 'Whatever oil I've been given sir'. I suppose I could have gone with 'none', but I thought a bloody stupid question deserved an equally bloody stupid answer - after all, midwinter Kinloss did not offer many opportunities for desert warfare, so something a bit more relevant might have been appropriate.)

[Tankertrashnav]

Or to put it another way, if NCOs are the Backbone of the military, then why do they NOT accrue the same pension rights?



Gladrag

Maybe because they dont want their service before the age of 21 to be disregarded in calculating their pensionable service, as is the case with officers!

[Al R]

Now now Tanks, we've already discussed this. :ok:

Officer pensions are calculated over a career of only 34 years service and ORs, up to 37.

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes but my point was made for the large number of officers who dont serve 37 years :ok:

[Al R]

Yes, I accept that (I assume you meant 34?). :ok:

75 was quite prescriptive and dogmatic in assuming that people stayed in for the full hitch and did favour those who stayed the course. It was the MoD's way of accepting work patterns of the time, and incentivising more expensively trained Officers to stay in longer. 05 addresses that to some extent, and although only 8% or so transferred across from 75, far more WOULD have benefited from doing so.

Instead, the usual refrain was 'Huh, they're only doing it to save money, and at my expense' when that wasn't always the case. One size doesn't fit all and 05 benefits far more, those who stay the whole course. It also helps families more, it recognises that divorce is more common and it doesn't disadvantage those as much, who do elect to leave early.

Per Ardua,

Al