C207 lands short at Coffs

[VH-BCY]

A C207 landed short of the runway today at Coffs Harbour today due to engine failure. So who out there does powered approaches in piston engined singles? I always rather be higher on the approach then lower for this reason, after all, if the engine quits, you haven't got the luxury of another engine. Too often I see pilots who drag it in with power, being low on the approach. Perhaps a reality check is needed sometimes to help avoid these types of accidents. There should be no reason why a landing on the runway could not be made if you are either in the circuit or within gliding distance of the airport. :ugh:

[rioncentu]

Yeah but what about the other 4 hours I have just flown across 600nm of desert or ocean. I am not going to glide into an airstrip out there:eek:

I personally don't fly a circuit close enough to glide in.

Otherwise I'd never want to leave the circuit :{

[fatalbert1]

While I see what you're getting at BCY, its not very practical to fly a single at all times as if it were about to lose its engine. This bloke obviously wasn't too high seeing as though the jumpers couldn't get out.

[an3_bolt]

VH-BCY - have you ever flown a loaded C207 "Skycoffin"?:ouch:

I think maybe you should try what you are saying - a "gliding" 207 has about the same approach as a Space Shuttle (or perhaps a cat thrown from a very high rise apartment building.....).

But it has nothing on the new turbo compounded C209 "Super" with the JATO rockets, optional belly pod (double coffin taker) and underwing fuel drop tanks....:oh:

[aussiefan]

News report I heard was engine failure at height, got it restarted just before impact.

They also said as part of the damage that the "tyre snapped off" so make of it what you will....:rolleyes:

[Horatio Leafblower]

BCY

The techniques you speak of, like many we still teach in piston singles, were perfectly valid while teaching in Tigers during the War.

Did you learn to fly with the guy in the hangar next door to you? :ugh: :rolleyes:

Seriously - old mate is correct when he says what about the other 4 hours I have just flown across 600nm of desert or ocean.

The guy was on climb for a skydiving operation, not "in the circuit". If he ****** up the glide approach it had nothing to do with his normal circuit habits.

[Capt Fathom]

BCY, best you leave your plane in the hanger!

Just in case...........:zzz:

[43Inches]

Whilst there is always a chance of engine failure, the chance of stuffing up a glide approach in a heavy single is a greater risk.

It is much harder to constantly change your approach to arrive over the runway from different angles. The glide profile would be very different for different wind and operating weight and the rate of descent in big singles would be difficult to cope with.

This would be the only way you could ensure you'd glide to the runway from anywhere without compromising runway performance.

I believe this would lead to more accidents on landing then flying a stable powered approach.

If you don't have a 207 at your disposal take a bonanza or lance for a fly at max weight and do some gliding and see how close your circuit would have to be to make the runway, especially considering gear and flap on base and final.

You could even go further and say at idle you could get a suprise when you suddenly need go-round power and it coughs and splutters because its gone cold and fouled up.

Its much easier to just have off field options as you proceed round the circuit that you can easily reach without trying to stretch for the runway. The amount of successful landings on golf courses and similar in the past is testiment to this. The number of accidents by pilots trying to stretch a glide or turn back after take-off also say alot for techniques believing you can or have to make the runway.

In short if you can make the runway easily, go for it. If its doubtful or marginal then land somewhere else. If you are a student have a long chat to your instructor about it.

[VH-BCY]

AN3-bolt, yes I have flown the skycoffin. In fact, I use to own this very C207 and have flown many fully loaded skydive ops in it.
The point I was trying to make was simply there is nothing wrong of being a little higher on finals than a bit lower. As far as I know in this particular example, he was over 4000 feet and not far from the runway after being told there would be a delay in clearance. It was also not fully loaded. Only 5 POB and enough fuel for 1 sortie. I could be wrong with the information I have, but he should have made it easily, especially since there was a problem before the engine actually stopped(sorry H). He was only about 200 metres short.
I learnt to fly in ultralights where having an engine stop was only a matter of time not if. I was also taught that apart from initial takeoff and climb out, that you should be able to make the runway or at least somewhere close enough to make a safe landing in the event of an engine failure. What is wrong with this mindset? Too often circuits are done out of the range of most singles if the fan decides to stop.
HL, what do you mean by your comment "Did you learn to fly with the guy in the hangar next door to you?"

[VH-BCY]

Capt, at the moment all my planes are either working or down for maintenance. Can you lend me one, I need to fly to work! I promise I wont bend it, even if the engine stops. I have had plenty of practise over the years :{.

[ContactMeNow]

I am guessing that CASA did the usual drug and booze check on the pilot. Wonder if the jumpers were tested as they are airside when they land.....

Know said operator, hopefully the pilot gets looked after accordingly...rather than the 6 pack of beer at the end of the week as your weekly pay...plus you can live in the hanger if you want....:eek:

Didn't see the jumpers with unpacked 'chutes...must have gone down with the ship?

3 planes in 3 years...doing well fellas!!!! :D

Now back to my fairy dust....:E

[Tankengine]

Engine idle glide approaches with associated cylinder head cracking may CAUSE the engine failure!:ugh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

HL, what do you mean by your comment "Did you learn to fly with the guy in the hangar next door to you?"

...flies a Tigermoth, doesn't he? :}

[Biggles78]

If he was at 4,000' when the noise stopped, why didn't the Nutters expadite the glider? Were they over water or perhaps they were wearing a static line? Anyone know?

I was silly enough to have an incident over the DZ at 1,000' and I told them to jump (a high load so no static lines). Made for a much easier landing with what may have been "dead weight" onboard? They got their adrenalin rush so they were happy with a low hop n pop. :ok:

You think the C207 is bad, try a C205. Got an unpleasant surprise when I did my first landing in it and ran out of elevator in the flare. :eek:

[PA39]

Some guys and gals like to use what i call the airline approach......low with power to keep the engines hot. Usually found with HP turbocharged engines.

[aditya104]

a 3deg approach, or a standard approach is acceptable. But when conditions are favourable such as a long runway on disposal and runway reqd being not too long, there is nothing wrong with flying the approach high. (not too high) agree with BCY. Also refer to Canley Vale crash.

In Canley Vale crash, it was all because of lack of height.


altitude is pilot's best friend

[Horatio Leafblower]

aditya104 - that's a very long bow to draw, don't ya think? :bored:

[Fly-by-Desire]

Im sure every pilot would love a bit more altitude in an emergency, but you dont always get what you want!
Interesting the jumpers never bailed, when it comes to riding the elevator they are a nervous bunch of sissys just waiting for any excuse to jump! :}

"Why the hell would you guys jump from a perfectly servicable aircraft?"
"What!? you honestly think this thing is anywhere near servicable?!"
:)

[VH-BCY]

Apparently the pilot was told to hold west of the highway at 4000(which is too far away from airport if the fan stops). He then made his way in but ran into trouble on final. Good job H, sorry if I made it sound like that you just stuffed up and was too low on approach. Not sure why skydivers didn't get out, I assume it happened too low and were over tiger country. 2 instructors on board with AFF and B-Rel students. Pilot was only tested that morning for booze and drugs, all clear.
Engine(TCM IO550) had only done about 50 hours from factory rebuilt. Still no clue on what caused the stoppage, I guess we will have to wait for the reports. And no, I don't think they ran out of fuel before anyone suggests it. They had at least 100 litres of fuel on board before takeoff, more than enough including reserves for the sortie:{

[RENURPP]

In Canley Vale crash, it was all because of lack of height

Correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't all (except a handfull of accidents) been due to a lack of height?

[Capt Fathom]

ALL landings are due to a lack of height!:uhoh:

[Tee Emm]

If you are a student have a long chat to your instructor about it.Especially if the instructor is a grade three....junior or senior:ok:

[aditya104]

Structural Failure
Sabotage
Bad Weather
Mid Air Collision
Human Factors
CFIT
Ground Accidents

See Accident statistics (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm) for causes of aviation accidents and u will know for yourself.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't all (except a handfull of accidents) been due to a lack of height?


Disambiguity due to incroguity of capacity of handfulls!

[Aerodynamisist]

Three for three there is a bit of a pattern developing there !. The old mate network reports it as having struck 300 meters short of 03 which is not far from where the oxley airlines chieftain crashed many years ago
It Could easily have been another Willow Bank.

I understand there are now two operators there offering skydiving in Coffs one run under skydive Byron and the other is the operator of the accident aircraft Coffs city skydivers, Mark Brody is no longer the owner.

Who is fixing the aircraft at Coffs these days, I hear JD has retired.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Who did Mark sell to and when did they replace the 182's Mark was running? I still remember Mark and Neil flying those around when I got my GFPT at Coffs Harbour Aero Club a good number of years ago. Lucky he didn't end up in the creek and even luckier the wind wasn't favoring 21 or worse still lucky he didn't have an EFAT on 28!

Good job that he got it down though.

Last I heard JD was travelling around oz.

[VH-BCY]

Unfortunately there is no maintenance facility at Coffs at the moment. What is GA coming to when such a large reginal airport can't support a maintenance facility. The lack of qualified LAMEs is starting to show and it is only going to get worse as more and more reach retirement age. :{
Anyone know a LAME that might be interested in moving to Coffs to run a maintenance facility? PM me if you wish.

[ContactMeNow]

Brody sold out to Steve Hill (Hilly in the DZ scene). Brody was x-hiring out TXI and his other Blue 182 to Hilly when he needed them.

TXI was then bought by Hilly, few months later the engine quit, then they had another 182, again engine quit and now this C207...not too sure if it was a x-hire or owned.

The other operator in Coffs (Skydive Coffs) is the more professional one (plus the pilot actually gets paid there)

MB was very strict on how he wanted his aircraft to be flown. Once he sold the business it all fell to bits.

JD has shut up shop and is travelling around OZ, wonder if he ever got his bus sorted?

[Atlas Shrugged]

Disambiguity due to incroguity of capacity of handfulls!

No one ever collided with the sky, but what goes up, must come down at some point. They are ALL caused by a "lack of height".

[Aerodynamisist]

Given the area the aircraft ended up in this thread should be "C207 crashes short at Coffs"

picture here Five people survive plane crash | Coffs Coast News | Local News in Coffs Coast | Coffs Coast Advocate (http://www.coffscoastadvocate.com.au/story/2010/06/26/five-people-survive-plane-crash-landing/)

[fencehopper]

pretty sure that the jumping scene is referring this 207 as VH FIF, if so this was based at wilton (picton) in the eighties. called the flying coke can as painted red and Grahem Hill used it for the Coke and 2SM demos. Piece of junk it had two goes at me both on takeoff. always crap and water in the fuel lines. last i saw it was in Ayre painted white. can't fool me i went to the pub.
So it stopped at 4,000 ft and did not get it back. first i heard of a restart, what then it stopped again? my first guess was ice, but they say it ran out of fuel. some students on board but pilot wanted everyone to stay in the aircraft. don't figure if you over head almost. and they are a bit of a lead sled. I would have gone for help
As for power failures i too taught my self to fly in the bad old days of ultralights (real ones not this pesudo GA crap) and still fly the same ones today and have over 60 power failures. Only one rule, DEAL WITH IT!

[Brian Abraham]

my first guess was iceExcuse me!!!! How does that work then?

[Jabawocky]

Carby Ice Brian, you know...its been around almost as long as you have :ok:

J:E

[Super Cecil]

That would be the carburetor on the APU?

[walschaert valve]

I think this aircraft has been modified to have an IO-550 in it.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I'm not sure that the original IO-520 fitted to the C207 would be any more prone to Carby ice than the IO-550.

Maybe I'm wrong. :confused: :}

[Jabawocky]

That would be the carburetor on the APU?


You guys crack me up.........I make one cheeky silly remark and you all have to go one better :D.

Best entertainment money can buy is pprune! :ok:

[walschaert valve]

Horatio - my point exactly.

[D-J]

I'm not sure that the original IO-520 fitted to the C207 would be any more prone to Carby ice than the IO-550.

Maybe I'm wrong. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

but with a O-550... you could keep you beer cold in there! :ok:

[an3_bolt]

The O-550 must be a new one developed especially for the C209 - haven't found one sitting under the bonnet yet.....plenty of IO-520 and IO-550 though but no 0-550's....gotta be good for one of those Heineken mini kegs if you can find one to stash it in:eek:

[D-J]

The O-550 must be a south oz thing..... hadn't come across one myself until moving down here :suspect:

[VH-BCY]

Totally agree Fencehopper. Gees 60, thats getting up there. Maybe some of the new generation pilots should jump into some of the real ultralights and experience some real engine failures. Perhaps they might pay a bit more attention to where they are flying and think to themselves, WHAT IF THE FAN STOPS RIGHT NOW, WHERE WOULD I GO?;)

[sarge75]

100 litres of fuel plus?

So why didn't they have enough fuel to wear a 25 minute hold as you claim BCY???

Why did they have to descend if they had sufficient fuel?

One of the jumpers I know in the plane wanted to jump but wasn't allowed. Why?

More importantly, the first time the tower and other traffic in the air were made aware of any problems was when the 207 slammed into the ground. Why were NO calls made to inform anyone they were in trouble (forget the media reports, I know and have spoken to 4 people that were on the radio when the incident happened)??

Oh and those saying 3 aircraft in 3 years are missing the 2 blown tyres in 4 days in the 206 (was that call sign BCY?). As Phil said in JD's hanger, he was scared of running out of fuel so he bought it in hot.

[Aerodynamisist]

Low fuel ?

fresh engine ?

Drop clearance gets held up or denied by atc (coffs or brissy) and brings the jumpers down ?

Dodgy operator not paying pilots who sleep on the hangar floor ? (not sure who is the bigger @$$h0le, the operator or the pilot for working for nothing)

This has all the elements of GA dodgyness that need to be stamped out, the accident report should make a good read though.

[Fly-by-Desire]

why didn't they have enough fuel to wear a 25 minute hold

i can tell you there are not many jump planes flying around with a spare 25min of fuel, and nor are they required to do so.


One of the jumpers I know in the plane wanted to jump but wasn't allowed. Why?


Maybe because they are not the PIC?

Not every parachuting operation is dodgey! not saying this one isnt , but im a bit tierd of this mind set that because they operate a bit closer to limits that it is an unsafe practice.

[Brian Abraham]

You guys crack me up.........I make one cheeky silly remark and you all have to go one better
There's only one first prize Jaba, sorry, and that went at post #30. ;)

[sarge75]

"i can tell you there are not many jump planes flying around with a spare 25min of fuel, and nor are they required to do so."

but they are required to have a 45min reserve.

"Not every parachuting operation is dodgey!"

Completely agree. Sadly some are though, not cause they go close to the limits but because they break them.

[D-J]

but they are required to have a 45min reserve.

keeping in mind PJE is a private op & my memory maybe a bit hazy, where would one find reference to this?

[an3_bolt]

Could you be referring to CAAP 234-1 table 2 (page 7)?
http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/234_1.pdf

Cheers:ok:

[PA39]

Ah...the "Coffs Cowboys" have been caught with their pants down....again.

There are so many who should have never been GIVEN a license at Coffs.

They couldn't manage the fuel in their lawn mowers, let alone an aircraft.

[D-J]

"i can tell you there are not many jump planes flying around with a spare 25min of fuel, and nor are they required to do so."

but they are required to have a 45min reserve.

"Not every parachuting operation is dodgey!"

Completely agree. Sadly some are though, not cause they go close to the limits but because they break them.Could you be referring to CAAP 234-1 table 2 (page 7)?
http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/ma.../ops/234_1.pdf (http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/234_1.pdf)

Cheershttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifI can see where your coming from, although a CAAP is just an advisory not a requirement unless it's stated in your company ops manual

[VH-BCY]

100 litres of fuel plus? Is what I have been told.

So why didn't they have enough fuel to wear a 25 minute hold as you claim BCY??? I didn't make this claim.

Why did they have to descend if they had sufficient fuel? Cause sitting in an aircraft without a door in winter is bloody cold.

One of the jumpers I know in the plane wanted to jump but wasn't allowed. Why? What only one, I would think they all wanted to jump. Perhaps they didn't have clearance!

More importantly, the first time the tower and other traffic in the air were made aware of any problems was when the 207 slammed into the ground. Why were NO calls made to inform anyone they were in trouble (forget the media reports, I know and have spoken to 4 people that were on the radio when the incident happened)?? Perhaps he didn't have time to make any calls. Besides what can the tower or anyone else on the radio do for that matter. Often precious time is wasted talking on the radio when they should be trying to either find a solution or somewhere to land (the recent Canley Vale accident comes to mind).

Oh and those saying 3 aircraft in 3 years are missing the 2 blown tyres in 4 days in the 206 (was that call sign BCY?). No, BCY has never had a blown tyre since I have owned it and as far as I know the 206 that was used a few months ago has never had one either. I think the said 207 has had some tyre issues though. As Phil said in JD's hanger, he was scared of running out of fuel so he bought it in hot. A pretty stupid comment to make if in fact it was made. If the pilot did say that, it just goes to show what the standard of commercial pilots are being produced lately.:eek:

[Under Dog]

It certainly not a good look parked there in the scrub just before the threshold of 03!!!

The Dog:=

[Horatio Leafblower]

Brand-new commercial pilots are brand-new commercial pilots.

Irrespective of the operation, a new pilot needs to be supervised, controlled, nurtured, mentored if he/she is to live long enough to be an "experienced" pilot. In fact, it is the same for any inexperienced employee in any business.

it just goes to show what the standard of commercial pilots are being produced lately.

...speaks volumes about the attitude of DZ owners and tandem masters towards the young pilots that they suck in, bleed white and discard every day in the APF :suspect:

[propblast]

Yep, I cant find a reference to the aircraft running out of fuel, what was the flight time. Roughly.

But with 100L onboard, thats around 80-90min to dry tanks.

Also, according to the The Coffs Coast Advocate (yea, i know, journos) there was a report from one of the skydivers that "The aircraft made a noise....." around the time the engine quit.

Not sure what's happend, but lets not jump on the fuel bandwagon.

PS: Happy to be corrected as I only just skimmed the thread, but please be gentle.:eek:

[Super Cecil]

Also, according to the The Coffs Coast Advocate (yea, i know, journos) there was a report from one of the skydivers that "The aircraft made a noise....." around the time the engine quit.

Bewdy :8 That'll help

[PA39]

Yeah....it wuz a burp or gasp for fuel !

[sarge75]

Jump on the fuel wagon...

[sarge75]

Same company, same pilot and pretty much same type of plane:

Plane crash lands in paddock | Northern Rivers News | Local News in Northern Rivers | Clarence Valley Daily Examiner (http://www.dailyexaminer.com.au/story/2010/11/01/plane-emergency-grafton/)

coincidence?