Alligator Airways engine failure?

[splinter11]

Anyone got any info on an engine failure that occured yesterday on an alligator airvan. By all reports happened close to the airport and pilot landed safely on the runway. If this is the case, hes damn lucky it happened where it did. Apparently blew a hole in the side of the cowling?

Splint

[Blueskymine]

I wonder if it's one of those new TIO-540'd Airvans that the company thinks should be ran at 80% power for cruise.

I'm telling you this now :}

Good job to the Pilot, lucky it was close in. Perhaps Monty will sort the place out when he heads up for the impeding audit :cool:

[Nose wheel first]

I've been told it was WOP ..... Happened as the aircraft was returning from the Bungholes.

I'm glad it happened where it did and not 15 miles earlier.

[Peter Fanelli]

I wonder if it's one of those new TIO-540'd Airvans that the company thinks should be ran at 80% power for cruise.
So what's the problem with that?

You're talking what, 256 hp from a 540 cubic inch engine, hardly pushing the limits.
As long as 80% is operating within the manufacturers limits and not a company wet dream then what's the problem.

"Normal Power" in the Piper Aztec used to be 80% also.

[that guy]

"I've been told it was WOP ....."


Why am i not surprised......... :hmm: "I'm telling you its fine" :ugh:

Nice work on the pilots behalf!

[morning_glory]

Pretty sure that very aircraft had another partial eng failure back in 2008 (pretty sure the engine in it at the time was at the end of its life). WOY was very lucky a few months back. Oil useage off the charts, one or 2 pilots eventually refused to fly it and were shown the door. As it turns out the engine was not far off failure by the time a now ex company maintainer took it on himself to investigate the cause of the constant oil consumption. Lets hope that the upcoming audit is thorough.

[Jabawocky]

Well if my Jepps are to scale its around 500m.....how hot and how heavy? Still not smart.....could have backtracked behind the E Jet and used half length.

On the recent trip to Tassie taxiing for 30 I was given the option of full length if I required it :}....... I declined. Having said that from delta you could go 12 as well. They need full length taxiways down there!

[Nose wheel first]

G'day Aeropelican

Yes, seems like there has been some rego swapping going on there. WOP is a new TC Airvan by the looks of it now. IOP used to be WOP which used to RYT. RYT used to fly around Fraser Island. Serial number 004 ...

There are a few people who would agree with your statement that they are an accident waiting to happen..... on so many levels!!!

Lets hope that accident is prevented by timely intervention by the regulator.

[that guy]

Taking off from alpha on 12......! :ugh: sounds like a tool.... clearly things have changed since the 'no intersection takeoffs' rule of my day!


TG

[multi_engined]

Taking off from alpha on 12......! :ugh: sounds like a tool.... clearly things have changed since the 'no intersection takeoffs' rule of my day!


TG


Not to mention what top end 332/333 were thinking... :rolleyes:

[that guy]

exactly, I'm sure there were a few choice words uttered in the E Jet cockpit!!

[notaplanegeek]

wtf why was my post deleted? It was a valid comment




No post has been deleted to this point.

Finger trouble perhaps. Your finger, not mine! :=

Tail Wheel

[The Green Goblin]

MMMM..... typical sling pilot talking sh$t. also,why do you need runway lights on during daylight,.double click - STRUGGLERS

Pilots are encouraged to use all available lighting for maximum visibility for the sequence of the flight they are conducting. This includes Strobes and Nav lights along with recognition lights if fitted below 10,000 feet and landing lights/taxi lights for airfield operations.

The only time I would avoid the use of a landing light is in a single engine aircraft operating on a gravel strip as the lighting is subject to damage when the light is hot from the prop washing rocks over the nose which usually houses the landing lights.

Yes as Alligator Pilots we all used to enjoy taking the piss of the Slingair guys and vice versa. Instead of taking the piss out of them for maximizing their visible profile in a busy CFAF, tell them the lighting may be a bit more efficient if they are not on a 3nm downwind :}

Congrats to the Pilot for making it in, glad it didn't happen a little further out. Is this Airvan one that was due to cross the fence to Slingair?

EDIT: Just been kindly pointed out that you said runway lights :) I prefer to have them on too for the PAPI although in a bugsmasher a 3 degree profile is not really required......

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

While on the note of Gator, saw their Airvan with the turbo donger in it take off from Alpha in the 12 direction at KNX the other day

Err, em. Twy Alpha is more a heading 340 or 350, not 120; and taking off that way is more towards Ivanhoe Plains not Kununurra.

...

...

OK, Just kidding although when I first read that I did think we were referring to the actually taking off from a taxiway i.e. the parallel TWY ("F") and I almost fell out of my chair.

I remember being chastised quite sternly by a visiting bizjet for even lining up and waiting at the threshold of 30 as he backtracked after landing 30. (Rightly so I might add; at the very least I should have consulted him as the first and rightful occupier.)

If it's true then wow! Not the intersection departure so much but the lack of consideration for other pilots rights.

FRQ CB

[JRL89]

Haha, I remember having fluctuating oil pressure in one of the WO* airvans in 2008, and also the 207 WOU, you could spin the prop with a finger, absolutely no compression, probably running on 5 cylinders. And also the other 207 DMS, had a crack in the oil cooler, was a day to day event to lose 2 quarts or more on a bungles run, those were the days..


Im telling you, you better take off or I will shoot you with My elephant gun!, i dont miss that guy hahah

[multi_engined]

Usually PAL is activated during the daytime so the PAPI is also illuminated... I don't really think it's important for day VFR in a SE anyway. You should know whether or not you're above or below profile...

[The Green Goblin]

I don't really think it's important for day VFR in a SE anyway. You should know whether or not you're above or below profile...

They fly a perfect 3 degree profile, then float down half the runway before they touch down......

I reckon a Metro uses less runway than their 210s and a Metro needs more runway than a 737 :eek:

[Delta]

above mentiond ac is VH-WOP once apon a time was VH-RYT and engine examination indicated it had flown 7 hours with 1.5l of oil... this is the latest i have found out but am a fair way from knx,. \greatings to RK :E\...safe flying to all currently employed aa crew!

[The Green Goblin]

Dunno Navitimer (or CB if it's you) but if someone didn't check the oil in my engine and ran it out on a bungles with less than 2 quarts of oil in it regardless of the fact they did a successful forced landing I'd sack them too.

From memory the 540 can function on 2 quarts for a limited time, but a 7 hour day does push the friendship a little too far.

Whilst Alligator is a good starting point for your career, I'd hardly call it an Airline :}

[NAVITIMER.]

Yeah totally agree, Green Goblin.

But I know from the horses mouth that he checked and there was 9.5 qts on the pre-flight.

[The Green Goblin]

Don't forget that if you don't wipe the stick it will read far higher than it actually has.

I used to from memory always keep the van at about 8 quarts else it blew it out the back, even if the total oil was 12 quarts.

Usually in the tropics these engines will burn about half a litre an hour so a bungle run should use about a quart of oil.

Good job to get it on the ground, poor airmanship having to. I bet he checks it very thoroughly from now on in his next job. Many a guy I know over the years has been sacked from the gator. For most it's not the end of the world and they move on to bigger and better things.

[YPJT]

Just maybe an engineer of RK's experience can spot when he is being bull****ted to. If there was 9.5 quarts at the start and less than 2 at the time of engine failure there would either be something seriously wrong going on inside that engine burning the oil up or it would be all over the cowls and fuse.
If the pilot did forget / neglect / not bother to check the oil, he is hardly going to admit it down the track particularly given the result.

I have flown a lot of aircraft maintained by RK and had first hand experience with how he conducts his maintenance. Your comments Navitimer are purile to say the least. [offensive comment subsequently removed]

[ContactMeNow]

Navi,

If its that bad why don't you call CASA and make a formal complaint? Just ensure you have supporting evidence...

I have never worked for 'gator, but I have heard its good hours for the logbook. But the staff are "threatened" with getting the sack if they dont perform or do as the CP says.

But then again, the CP is just a puppet at that place.....puppet not muppet :E

CMN

[Wally Mk2]

I thought that a certain post wouldn't last long, am surprised the Mods let that particular post stay up for that long! It was rather nasty & by the sounds of things a reaction that was perhaps latter thought no appropriate, well the Mod/s thought that.

Anyway whether or not this guy checked the oil is now academic (am sure he is wiser now anyway one way or the other) The question now remains the A/C in question arrived back from the previous jaunt with obviously a low oil quantity. (YPJT yr comments are spot on) The 540 in good nic burns little oil & with 12 qts (if kept full should give the engine many hrs of safe ops( I used to overhaul them in another life & around 8-10 qts was the norm for day to day Ops) so it's quite possible that the previous flight was undertaken with less than the optimum oil qty so the next guy to fly it the subject in question here was the bunny to wear the end result. If it wasn't him it could very well have been the guy flying it the next trip. Obviously there is a problem here (again as YPJT mentions) whether it be poor maint or something along those lines or just poor airman-ship either way a lesson to be learned for all who fly these type of craft in these conditions.


Wmk2

[tail wheel]

Wally, that post was at 11.26 pm last night. Some Mods do have a life.....

It was drawn to my attention by another Mod in a different time zone and removed very early this morning. The user that posted those comments will not be back in this thread. He/she is very lucky they still have PPRuNe access.

Regardless of any other circumstances, the post was totally, totally inappropriate. :=

[HarleyD]

Yeah, What YPJT said.

Totally agree, the plane would be dripping oil with the onset of oil consumption like that, for seemingly no apparent reason. From 9.5 to less than two in a couple of hours does not compute.

There is clearly a difference in the damage patterns between a piston deciding to get out because of oil starvation, and the oil getting out in the event of a major component failure. the causes of each are very easy tell which is which, so if pilot is not guilty it will be forensically evident in the failure history of the components, and he will be vindicated, so no need for the nasty remarks from navitimer.

HD

[splinter11]

Rumour has it that that particular aircraft was burning a very high rate of consumption of oil in the lead up to the event, of which maintainance were aware but of course did very little about it. So it is quite possible that the pilot took off with less than 9.5 quarts, but for a normal running engine to fail after a 2 hour bungle flight he would have had to take off with less than 3 quarts. Which leads me to my point that this never would have occured if the engine was consuming normal ammounts of oil, and every pilot who works at gator knew it was burning high amounts.

but its fine "go and fly it"

[The Green Goblin]

Whats the maximum oil burn a 540 can burn per hour before it's pulled down??

From memory it was a quart an hour so anywhere up to 2 quarts on a bungle run would be within limits?

[D-J]

Rumour has it that that particular aircraft was burning a very high rate of consumption of oil in the lead up to the event, of which maintainance were aware but of course did very little about it. So it is quite possible that the pilot took off with less than 9.5 quarts, but for a normal running engine to fail after a 2 hour bungle flight he would have had to take off with less than 3 quarts. Which leads me to my point that this never would have occured if the engine was consuming normal ammounts of oil, and every pilot who works at gator knew it was burning high amounts.

but its fine "go and fly it"

one has to ask, irrespective of high oil consumption...

Was this pilot paying attention to oil t&p's? one would expect if the oil level was low enough to do damage to the engine there would have been lots of warning from the gauges.......

Not passing judgement, but it does sound as if he knew about the issues of the a/c & hence more attention should have been to be paid to gauges

[MyNameIsIs]

GG, the tolerance I've been told previously for Lyco IO540's is 1qt per hour too.

"Minimum safe" oil quantity was 3 from what I can remember.

I've had one spew its oil out on me. Started at 9 and ended with about 2-2.5 quarts in I think around an hour of flight time, not much more or less. No abnormal indication from T&Ps, but then again they were old gauges that were typical GA and did funny things once in a while.
They have a reputation for being a tough engine :ok:.
Externally, though unable to see from the cockpit, it was very evident that something was amiss; the oil on the plane at the end of the flight (last one for the day back at home base thankfully!) was insane, much more than what was considered "normal".
Never was told the real reason why it did that, but I found out that I was blamed for it behind my back. If the so-called "chief engineer" said that in front of me he would more than likely have a few less teeth today...
Took a while but it did get fixed..... after the company pulling me in particular off the plane and continuing to run the machine with a box of oil in the back topping it up almost every stop.


All I can say is thank f*k I had two noisemakers........

[The Green Goblin]

Apparently this particular aeroplane was using about 2 quarts per bungle and the Pilots were moaning about how dodgy it was etc etc. I basically said that it is the upper limit of what is perfectly acceptable for a 540.

Now it was the last bungle and if the previous two Pilots had not checked it and topped it up this could explain the low level of oil.

Yes I would be a little concerned too if it were using that amount of oil and would be diligent in monitoring it every time I flew it, but letting it fly the line with that type of burn is not unacceptable IMO. I've flown 150s on condition that burnt similar amounts in a much smaller engine.

The company concerned is no better or no worse than any other entry level GA company and whilst I never worked with the current owner, the old owner ran a pretty tight ship in the mechanical side of the business. Someone mentioned that they didn't pay the award? The old owner was known for that however we all received our cheques in the mail a couple of years after we left and are all square. The new owner would be pretty silly to do such a thing considering the company has been under the microscope by the ombudsman in the past.

I look back on my time there and smile, I had a ball in the Kimberley.

[bush mechanics]

I had to change an engine on a C210 a while back on behalf of the owner,It had a 8inch hole in the top of the case under the engine breather,The a/c belly and engine bay were remarklbly clean considering 12qts of oil once lived in the sump!!!It too had been run out of oil,Its good practice to check the oil during your days flying.Just because it was on 10qts on your daily inspection dosnt mean that their will be 10 qts in it after a long days flying.
Oil and Fuel are just as important as each other.At least you can always land with power if you think you dont have enough fuel,Once the oil is gone she will let go pretty soon after then it goes all quite from their.
Remember their is a colum on your MR for Oil added,Use it and cover your ass!!
Blue skys

[FOD_Hazard]

Rumour has it that that particular aircraft was burning a very high rate of consumption of oil in the lead up to the event, of which maintainance were aware but of course did very little about it.



WOY was very lucky a few months back. Oil useage off the charts, one or 2 pilots eventually refused to fly it and were shown the door. As it turns out the engine was not far off failure by the time a now ex company maintainer took it on himself to investigate the cause of the constant oil consumption.


Is it just me or is there a pattern here? 2 aircraft in the space of 8 months with high oil consumption and RKs answer is to keep sending the planes flying. One has an engine failure in flight and the other was not far off failure by the time something was done.

The whole dynamic at that company is appalling. Pilot morale is at an all time low, pilots are frowned upon for speaking up about concerns with maintenance in some cases even dismissed, pilots are threatened with dismissal for associating with pilots from sling and shoal air. Just look at the way the last CP was replaced. It speaks absolute volumes about the place.

[geeup]

Just get your hours and get out :ok:
The place will never change :ugh:

[puff]

Just hope you don't end up in a pine box in the meantime eh geeup !

Surely if the a/c was burning excessive amounts of oil - and was noted correctly on the MR - that the MRO would have a case to answer for from CASA ? Or am I dreaming ? Whats it put on the MR for otherwise ?

No job is worth your life if you or your passengers safety is being compromised, most hours in the logbook in a cemetry doesn't mean much.

[lemel]

Firstly, I have flown the airvan and the lycoming in them was very reliable and resilient, more so than the continental. As a result they don't need to be babied (not sure if this is even a word) as much. Knowing this makes me wonder if the pilots are looking after the engines correctly. Also from memory, I think the manual states that the min oil for flight is something like 2 or 4 qz. Not sure of the exact number now, but I know it's quite low.*

Secondly, why arent the pilots at AA reporting this? *We all get the flight safety magazine and we all know that REPCON reports are completely confidential.*

Thirdly, if you guys at AA are getting paid below the award and are scared of getting fired, then just wait until you leave and get afap or the obuddman onto them. You will get back the money that you worked for and deserve.*

Fourthly, I can't believe there are pilots out there that would fly an aeroplane without checking the oil before each and every flight, no matter how many times they fly it in a day. There are four very simple things that will kill you if not done.*
1. Not enough fuel and leaving your fuel caps off.*
2. Not enough oil and leaving the oil cap off or not tightened correctly.*
3. Takeoff flap not set. *
4. Trim not set correctly for takeoff.
Before every flight, no matter how rushed I was, after loading the passengers i would check the fuel caps were on and I would check the oil cap was securely tightened. Only then would I get in the aeroplane for engine start. Once all my checks were completed and I was about to line up I would double check the flap and trim settings were correct.*

I had a great time flying up in kunners. Good crew, fun flying, crappy 207s, crappy boss and cp, but it was awesome! Believe it or not, I would love to do a bungles again (even though at the time I was sick to death of them). * **