Merged: It's downhill between SYD & LHR

[LondonSloop]

Late night talk at Heathrow wasn't just about who will be Australia's PM, but what yesterday's announcemnt by the Australian Pilots Association means for BA, Qantas and affected Staff.

"On 9 June Jetstar announced it would be operating between Singapore Changi Airport direct to Melbourne and Auckland. Jetstar has decided to base 2 A330s in Singapore

These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be able to effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions. Expect the Analysts will be figuring what splitting Jetstar from Qantas will cost and whether merging BA with Qantas is still worth while.

[Jetstarpilot]

From AIPA insights


....On 9 June Jetstar announced it would be operating between Singapore Changi Airport direct to Melbourne and Auckland. Jetstar has decided to base 2 A330s in Singapore. These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be ableto effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions. AIPA has a major objection to this arrangement....



TEAM BAZZA:}TM now has a major objection:rolleyes: I'll bet QANTAS / Oldmeadow are shaking in their boots. Why did they scuttle the Sale Act case which would have given the membership some leverage which we now all lack???

At least the A380 got their 6%:yuk:

And they wonder why their AIPA survey isn't being responded to.... because the members know these incompetents have only managed to improved the T&C's of the Mothership....

LET THEM EAT CAKE A380IPA new motto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake)

[Icarus2001]

NZ registered, qantas callsigns, qantas uniforms, less pay. This rot has to be stopped!! What about Qantaslink then...

AUS registered, Qantas uniform, sold as QF product, white rat on tail, less pay.

[ROH111]

Icarus2001

The drivers on the 73 are on a different pay to the guys on the 767, to the 330, the 400 the 80... Different fleet, different pays. I dont agree with it but its the way it is.

The difference with QLink and Zitconit and others is that the QLink aircraft are crewed by Australian licenced pilots, not foreigners flying QF look-a-likes.

[struggling]

If the Yanks can see how it ought to be done-


· American Airlines (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/american-airlines) has received yet another endorsement of its Flight Plan 2020. Key to its success, according to Airlinefinancials.com is massive change in labour-management relations. Without that, said Founder Bob Herbst, American will not be able to compete. American Airline's single largest obstacle to long-term success – profits and growth – is finding a solution which resolves their decades of contentious and on-going battles between labour and management.

Is there any reason why the airlines down under should continue to slug it out in the trenches?

Looks to me like it’s time those who lead this industry came up with something else other than cost cutting and offshoring.Is absolutely no reason why the employees of Qantas & Jetstar should suffer while the wheel is reinvented.

[Don Diego]

Team Bazz and the lads are toooo busy looking after the interests of their new mates in Virgin at the moment to be concerned about such a trivial matter.:mad:

[waren9]

From the OP

These aircraft will be registered under an Australian AOC, carrying an Australian registration, so therefore should be overseen by the Australian Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA). How CASA will be able to effectively control and have oversight of the maintenance of these aircraft is yet to be answered. What seems to be clear is that these jobs will be under Singaporean terms and conditions

Just semantics really. These ships will be part of the Australian fleet and its only a case of 2 airfames overnighting in SIN.

Only difference is JQ exploiting the lack of jurisdiction of AU labour laws over "SIN employees". No different to what they have done with JQ NZ and QF has with JetConnect.

The result of the AIPA court case for equal conditions for the Jetconnect pilots will determine all our futures.:sad:

Better hope AIPA wins.

[Muff Hunter]

Jetstar will be soon employing all pilots through the JQNZ operation and then offering them LWOP to work for a new contract company run by the ex chief pilot based wherever they want.

Of course, the pay will be a lot less and NO SENIORITY LIST.

The plan is just to slot them into the rostering system on the 320 and 330 and go about business as usual.

How far does the piece of excrement who runs this airline want to go before the ****e really hits the fan!

[waren9]

If true

:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[KABOY]

Sow a thought you reap an act. Sow an act, you reap a habit. Sow a habit, you reap a character. Sow a character, you reap a consequence.

This was on the wall 10 years ago.:ugh:

[DrPepz]

A similar arrangement is in place today with Jetstar's PER-SIN service. The VH-registered aircraft arrives in SIN at dawn, does SIN-PEN-SIN and SIN-BKK-SIN (Jetstar Asia wetleases the aircraft from Jetstar Australia) then the aircraft does SIN-PER at 1735.

the SIN-MEL service will be operated as a JQ service, while the SIN-AKL service will be operated as a 3K service, since Australian carriers can't fly from SIN to NZ under the current SIN-NZ bilateral.

SIN has very attractive bilateral agreements with many countries, including unlimited 5th and 7th freedoms to and through the UK. I am sure the QF Group will exploit these rights to the fullest. They could fly SIN-STN 20 times a day if they so wished! And anywhere-in-the-UK to the USA 20 times a day too!

I wonder when countries will start to challenge the fact that Jetstar Asia is not a Singaporean carrier. Malaysia initially wanted to recognise Jetstar Asia as an Aussie carrier in the allocation of rights for SIN-KUL, but in the end after lobbying by the Singaporean authorities, they decided to recognise 3K as a Singaporean carrier.

As a Singaporean I am fine with Jetstar enhancing the connectivity through SIN as an airport, but if I were SIA I would be super pissed that the QF Group gets access to the rights that SIA has gained and fought for, for the past 3 decades. I am sure once 3K starts FCO and ATH, SQ will just withdraw!

[struggling]

Very insightful Dr P. The operating flexibility you describe is indeed ingenious.

Nonetheless, Jetstar Asia & Jetstar Australia are not one and the same. As things stand, the difference in % Australian ownership of each is both necessary and problematic, but without legislative change, it will become increasingly tricky to reconcile ownership with open skies opportunity.

Don’t know what bought about the massive change in labour-management relations @ AA, but do know that US aviation unions work hard to influence US aviation policy and necessity is the mother of invention.

[LondonSloop]

The chatter boxes up here have been all but silenced by the very public execution of your PM.

Talk of splitting off Jetstar and merging BA with Qantas has gone ice cold. Would seem your Welsh born new PM is not keen on policy that upsets the unions.

Is a shame really. Associated game changing legislation probably does have the ability to force massive change in the labour-management relationships of antipodean aviation.

[neville_nobody]

The real issue is whose AOC this will be operated from. You can't have VH rego aircraft operating on a foreign AOC.

So assuming that it is Jetstar Australia's AOC I don't see how they can run VH aircraft with foreign pilots. CASA has no jurisdiction over that check and training organisation if they are foreign licensed pilots. So therefore how do CASA regulate that AOC? If a GA outfit tried such a stunt CASA would have them in court tomorrow trying to shut them down. Since it is QF though they will just sit idly by and let it all happen and let the coroner sort the legal mess left by an accident.

[waren9]

Neville

Just look at the NZ operation.

VH planes, pilots with Australian licences and medicals all under the Australian AOC.

Sounds like atleast some of the SIN operation will do likewise.

CASA does not care who pays the salaries.

Australian labour laws also do not address this rather big loophole, and thats the crux of the biscuit.

[struggling]

Regulatory barriers aside, the core issue is that globalisation initiatives keep running into the same old, rigid doctrine cobbled together in an era of parochial labour relations.

Global initiatives by their very nature are tricky. They have to be pitched to foreign affiliates and considered in good faith by Australian Legislators, Regulators, Management & Unions.

All of which is unlikely to bear fruit unless management and labour are in it together. More of the same old same old will only get us sidelined and take aviation the same way shipping has gone.

[neville_nobody]

More of the same old same old will only get us sidelined and take aviation the same way shipping has gone.

Yes that is pretty much spot on

The difference with NZ is there are government agreements to operate RPT in each others country.

I assuming here they will be Australian licensed pilots, in VH rego aircraft on Singapore work contracts?

[airtags]

nev:
"I assuming here they will be Australian licensed pilots, in VH rego aircraft on Singapore work contracts?"

I think the important precursor to the statement is the word ......'initially'.........!

No doubt in my mind that the original Joyce JQ franchise-like vision ("any aircraft, anywhere with any crew"*)....will be the norm in the future.

Open skies are not necessarily safer skies especially when the regulatory system is used primarily to rationalise costs, but it will as you correctly highlighted, take a few coroner's reports before the pollies and their flunkies get the message.

AT:E

* quote from AJ in BNE in the early days of JQ - goes well with his other quotes at the same time regarding legacy carriers' [QF?????] 'failures' to control the unions and make pilots work for their outragous pay packets........

[blow.n.gasket]

Now we can see why Management and those seen to be in bed with them were so keen to kill off the one impediment to this form of globalisation, namely the killing off, of the "Qantas Sale Act " case.

No wonder Buchanan is now crowing that Jetstar isn't Qantas and therefore isn't constrained by restrictions in the QF Sale Act with regard to the Australian content of the business and can therefore do as he pleases with regard to offshoring !

[CaptCloudbuster]

Looks like Ben Sandilands of Crikey fame agrees with you Blown n...

From his article 13th May (http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/05/13/jetstar-in-for-the-long-haul-out-of-asia/)

Jetstar as a Qantas subsidiary doesn’t face all of the Qantas Sale Act restrictions on foreign equity, or Australian domiciled control.

In Jetstar Qantas has a true, cross-border franchising strategy that makes a nonsense of the legislative restrictions on Qantas equity and business conduct in the longer run, since nothing in the Qantas Sale Act prevents it from making as much money as possible from offshore investments.

It should now be apparent that under President Woods stewardship at least AIPA was to put up a fight.

The president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Captain Barry Jackson, says his immediate concern is for the loss of pilots and engineering jobs from Australia to Singapore, now and as the momentum of long-haul Jetstar flights grows.:D:rolleyes:

[WoodenEye]

Sunderland’s article sure paints a startling picture. It is indeed astonishing that the momentous announcement about Jetstar becoming Singapore’s first long-haul, low-cost carrier got little more than cut-and-paste reporting in the Australian press.

That Team Bazaar ditched the Sale Act Case at one minute to midnight and subsequently filed the Fair Work Case will ultimately determine the job security and career progress of Qantas Group Pilots and is the legacy the TB administration will leave Qantas Group pilots.

Personally it is my view that Australian Industrial laws can not influence the employment Ts&Cs of majority owned foreign companies and this decision will ultimately be shown for the ploy it is.

Notwithstanding, that TB pulled the rug from the QSA Case and the membership quietly went along with it, does indicate that the pilot group doesn’t have the prerequisite levels of interest and determination to bring about the Management/Labour comprise referred to above and comment on Pprune is not enough to change this.

[LeadSled]

The real issue is whose AOC this will be operated from. You can't have VH rego aircraft operating on a foreign AOC.

Neville N.
Do you mean legally or morally? Legally (with apologies to Obama) Yes you can.

Equally, you can operate "foreign" registered/crewed/trained/maintained aircraft on an Australian AOC. This latter situation is quite common.

If a GA outfit tried such a stunt CASA would have them in court tomorrow trying to shut them down.

Only because no (or very few) GA outfits would have the financial resources to enforce their legal right under the Civil Aviation Act 1988, or even understand their legal position, versus the more usual "CASA says".

Major airlines like Qantas Group can afford legal parity with CASA. Sadly, in aviation in Australia, you only get the justice you can afford to buy.

Tootle pip!!

[LondonSloop]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/willie-walsh-says-ba-must-spread-its-wings-beyond-iberia-merger/story-e6frg90o-1225889643374?from=public_rss (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/willie-walsh-says-ba-must-spread-its-wings-beyond-iberia-merger/story-e6frg90o-1225889643374?from=public_rss)

Was drowned out by the M&A noise from the City.

BRITISH Airways is looking to do a deal with another airline within a year of BA completing its merger with Iberia..

BA and the Spanish flag carrier are set to merge under the control of an umbrella company called International Airlines (IACG) by the end of the year.
The holding company has been structured to facilitate further acquisitions, and BA's chief executive Willie Walsh said that these deals could happen quickly. Mr Walsh told the Aviation Club in London: "We have created an entity capable of being scaled up. Our ambition is truly global. IACG is not about putting BA and Iberia together. It is about creating a platform to create a carrier of global scale."Is time for you Aussies to get a JAA licence.

[CaptCloudbuster]

It is about creating a platform to create a carrier of global scale

Woodeneye, a question. Did you in your capacity as AIPA President foreshadow exactly this scenario we now see unfolding?

You predicted that unless mainline radically changed its work practices to remain relevant (ie EBA VIII) the 787's would ultimately end up in a global airline operation without borders with tech crew sourced internationally from the lowest bidders?:eek:

At least some of us will be able to take refuge on the A380:O

.....won't we??:confused:

[neville_nobody]

Equally, you can operate "foreign" registered/crewed/trained/maintained aircraft on an Australian AOC. This latter situation is quite common.

Which operator does that?

How can CASA possibly regulate an operator with an Australian AOC and say a Mozambique registered aircraft, with a system of maintenance and a check and training system?

I have heard of Australian based operators getting foreign registered aircraft to avoid getting an AOC, and therefore cut CASA out of the picture completely, but I cannot see legally how CASA could grant an AOC to a operator whom they don't have any legal authority over.

For example CASA cannot cancel the license of the pilot in my example as their pilot's license is controlled by Mozambique. Nor could they deem the aircraft unairworthy as it is not registered in Australia. They also have no authority over the Chief Pilot as he does not hold an Australian license.

[WoodenEye]

Whilst it has to come to pass sooner rather than later and I did foreshadow Qantas’ globalisation a few years back, it gives me no joy to read that ‘Jetstar Global’ is being used to steal Qantas’ lost opportunity.

Yes Cloudbuster, I believe there was a time when the combination of an EBA incorporating fleet pay and flexibility, together with settlement of the Qantas Sale Act case could have secured job security and career progress for all Qantas Group Pilots, but that time has now passed.

Having read Albanese’s recent speech to the Aviation Press Club in Washington, where he said: “We are committed to negotiating bilateral agreements that provide for designation on the grounds of incorporation and principal place of business..”And the above statement attributed to Willie Walsh, I sense that the effective control of piloting careers in the Qantas Group will soon no longer be in the hands of AIPA and Qantas Management, but in offshore Boardrooms.

Things maybe able to be saved , but it would now take an enormous amount of investment and the acceptance of financial risk for Qantas Group Pilots to deal themselves into the 'game' AIPA walked away from in 2008.

[blow.n.gasket]

If what you sat is true Woodeneye, will the following be a portend of what Bazza can expect from the troops when they discover what has been going on behind the scenes?:E


Australiana on Yahoo! Video (http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=905302&fr=yvmtf)

[WoodenEye]

With respect to Blown’s question.

Believe the term -‘The Jury is Out’- best describes the legacy the TB Administration is creating.

If AIPA’s upcoming Fair Work Case gets a favourable result and the yet to negotiated LHEBA 8 is better than LHEBA 8 Offer rejected on their advice in 2008, expect members will be happy and the TB Administration well remembered.

On the other hand, should the Fair Work Case flop, LHEBA8 2011 be a disappointment and “Jetstar Global’ initiatives now unfolding be applied to any merger of Qantas with say, BA/CX sometime next year; the crowd will want to blame someone/something other than their lack of interest/determination and history will be the judge.

Irrespective of which way it goes; as I've said elsewhere, Pilots and others need to ‘Think United’ if they are going to benefit from globalisation.

Good luck with it all.

[LondonSloop]

LCC's v Oneworld Global Alliance.

"British Airways, American Airlines and Iberia yesterday won EU antitrust clearance to deepen their pact. The Oneworld members want to broaden their pact to take advantage of the 'Open Skies' agreement between the United States and the European Union."City says Qantas must choose.

[WoodenEye]

I’m impressed LS. It seems the analysts down under agree with your mates in suits. According to some in Macquarie Street Sydney, yesterday’s B787 announcement constitutes an important reshaping of the Qantas-Jetstar strategy. The people at CAPA hold the view that:

..The Qantas Group’s complex strategy needs to be adjusted, as lingering always in the background is the opportunity to forge deeper partnerships internationally. The latest move will reverse the order in which Qantas’ LCC (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/hot-issues/low-cost-carriers-lccs) subsidiary Jetstar (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/jetstar-airways) receives the aircraft and implies an important reshaping of Qantas/Jetstar’s domestic and international strategy, but unless JetStar is part of such a deal, it also means that Qantas’ international strategy – which largely relies on Jetstar expanding to cover the Group’s long haul needs – could now be under the microscope...

I’ve always had difficulty understanding how the long haul Two Brand Strategy fits into the Mega Carrier Model and would love to get my hands on analysis that compares growing JetStar internationally with Global Fleet Co. Whatever you can make available, would be gratefully appreciated LS.