Freighter Jump Seat

[Knightpilot]

Looking for a bit of history on this. Why are we not able to jump seat on the freighter aircraft? I can see why non-cockpit crew members would be excluded, but why other pilots?

I may be wrong, but I believe Fed Ex pilots are able to jump seat on their own, and we get PX'd on them constantly. So what is the deal?

Could be something that the company could give that wouldn't hurt the bottom line.

[fly123456]

Same in Cargolux and Air France.

Upper deck seats available for family or friends (except to the US)

[joebanana]

CAD won't allow it. Nothing to do with the company.

[minglestar]

I am assuming that you are talking getting jumpseat on freighters for leisure travel.

Freighter aircraft carries Cargo-Aircraft-Only (CAO) dangerous goods, therefore persons onboard must be on official company, duty-related travel purposes. Jumpseating for leisure travel contravenes the CAO principle.

And why should pilots be given the additional option of getting jumpseat on freigthers over other employees of the company (for leisure travel purposes)?

[fly123456]

"why should pilots be given this benefit"

Typical jealous ground staff attitude!

"If I'm not entitled to... then nobody should be!"

Well, I'd like to be home every week-end, for Xmas AND for New year, thank you.

[vrhkg]

It is against the CAD rules for carriage of non operating personnel on Hong Kong registered freighters.CX do not have any say in the implimentation of the Hong Kong rules.
Happy Landings

[asianeagle]

It is against the CAD rules for carriage of non operating personnel on Hong Kong registered freighters.

So, does this rule apply to PX'ing on freighters too, since I'm not operating???

Oh yes I forgot, CAD rules subject to change at the discretion of the company
:ugh:

[buggaluggs]

"CX do not have any say in the implimentation of the Hong Kong rules." BBWWWAAAAHHHAHAHAHA......!!... What a great first post!! :D

[Knightpilot]

I wonder how all the other cargo carriers are doing it. Any Fed Ex HKG guys care to comment?

[Knightpilot]

Guess what. Just heard from a buddy. FedEx has agreements with many airlines that allow pilots of other approved carriers to call a phone number and list themselves for the jumpseat with Captains approval. A smile and a handshake presentation of union card and your off!

Something to think about anyway. I am sure our housing allowance will be benchmarked with FedEx's HKG housing allowance in the upcoming negotiations, so why not try to get some equivalent perks?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Jumpseat Finder (http://www2.alpa.org/fdx/jumpseat/)

If any HKCAD people are trolling this forum, please consider this:

A dark night over the Pacific and a smoke/fire warning...

6 empty seats upstairs.

OR

A couple of jumpseating off duty pilots, trained in firefighting duties.

I know what I would prefer.

[minglestar]

From Fly123456
"Typical jealous ground staff attitude!"

Typical pilot attitude: because I am pilot, I am highly trained, I am in command of $200m aircraft, I am God, and therefore the company should give me special benefits.

Just remember, without ground staff (marketing, sales, ramp, operations), you pilots would not have employment, let alone a $200m aircraft to fly.

I just hope your attitude towards ground staff is more respecting out at the airport than what is shown in this forum.

[Sqwak7700]

Something to think about anyway. I am sure our housing allowance will be benchmarked with FedEx's HKG housing allowance in the upcoming negotiations, so why not try to get some equivalent perks?

Fine by me. But if we benchmark their housing, then we need to benchmark their salary scale. FedEx pilots get the housing they get because they get the salary they get. You can't just take one and ignore the other. :=

If any HKCAD people are trolling this forum, please consider this:

A dark night over the Pacific and a smoke/fire warning...

6 empty seats upstairs.

OR

A couple of jumpseating off duty pilots, trained in firefighting duties.

I know what I would prefer.

Why would the CAD give a rat's ass if CX lost a freighter over the pacific? CX wants something, the CAD delivers. Just wait and see with the new FTLs.

When is the last time the CAD fined CX for ANYTHING? Isn't it weird that Cathay never receives any fines from the CAD? With something as complex as aviation, you are telling me that CX is compliant in absolutely every little minor detail. Yeah right.

The EU has recently placed every airline in the Philippines on the no-fly list due to their lack of confidence in their regulatory authority. I wonder why they don't apply the same logic to the HKCAD?

[4 driver]

I believe prior to 9-11, CX crew were eligible for jumpseats on FEDEX.
Anyone remember the details?
(I think we could even put in a preference for meals!)

[8888]

"Typical pilot attitude: because I am pilot, I am highly trained, I am in command of $200m aircraft, I am God, and therefore the company should give me special benefits. "

Your words, not his, minglestar... and the one with the chip on their shoulder would be whom I wonder?

Have you considered the fact that it's our 'office' up there and hence we occasionally get just a little roused when 'clerks' from each and every department see fit to begin dictating our 'office' policy?

[AsiaMiles]

If you read the copy of the Company's Air Operators Certificate in the Ops manual you would know the CAD sets the requirements for the use of the spare seats on the freighter.

[GlueBall]

Oh, and did you not know that CX has a passenger division, serviced by young, eager beaver China dolls? Why would you want to sit in the dull upstairs of a garbage truck and make your own cup of tea. . . and from time to time become radioactive from all the dangerous **** that's carried?

[minglestar]

8888:

Referring to staff from other departments as "clerks". What does that make the pilots - "glorified bus drivers"? It is this kind of condensing attitude that I am talking about that is exhibited by some pilots.
What happened to teamwork and being a team player. Remember that the ground staff plays just an equally important role for the safe and economical operation of flights.

[BusyB]

How do you think we feel when we go to work at all hours and have no-one in the offices to assist with Admin, Medical, Staff Travel, Laundry etc.
When you consider that these offices are manned only 40 hrs a week out of a possible 168hrs (and that takes no account of innumerable Public Holidays). We are often away from homes and families for up to 2 weeks at a time. Is it any wonder we don't want to waste our few days off at home running round offices. We often go to work with the a/c turned off, escalators turned off, and limited public transport.

I realise this fully applies to our Cabin Crew as well but for all other staff it does not really affect them.

You now come on and bitch about pilots wanting to use Jump seats. Do you really expect any other reaction to you on a pilots forum with your offensive comments. Yes, teamwork takes place every time a flight arrives or departs but this is not your place to comment. I suggest you go and do your "condensing" elsewhere:ugh:

[ron burgandy]

Minge*, "Just remember, without ground staff (marketing, sales, ramp, operations), you pilots would not have employment, let alone a $200m aircraft to fly"

I can't tell if you really actually believe that crap you've written or not.

How on earth did Farrell and de Kantzow get the whole operation going without 40 different departments to show them the way? :ugh:

[fly123456]

Don't get me wrong, mingle. Different groups of staff get different advantages (company car, laptop, phones...)

So why should you be complaining if we get something that might make our life easier? Because you can't have it? Come on...

Being away from home 15 days a month, I even think we should be entitled to take our wife/kids on some long freighter trips.

And actually, I don't mind having some ground staff jumpseating on a cargo airplane if they so wish.

[asianeagle]

Just remember, without ground staff (marketing, sales, ramp, operations), you pilots would not have employment, let alone a $200m aircraft to fly.

Are we up here cos you're down there, or are you down there cos we're up here??:}

Remember, it was pilots who started this business and pilots who employed clerks like yourself to take care of things when we were up there. If we decide not to come to work (and thats an entirely different discussion) you're out of a job, If you decide not to come to work, we employ another clerk.:ok:

[Knightpilot]

Hmm, can anyone name another major carrier that won't allow pilots to JS on their own carrier? Ground staff and Cabin crew, excellent! I am happy everyone is interested in this issue, let's work together as an airline to get this very basic benefit! An easy battle to win with minimal economic impact. Who writes the ops specs? Oh yeah we do!

[Forward CofG]

minglestar,

Just remember, without ground staff (marketing, sales, ramp, operations), you pilots would not have employment, let alone a $200m aircraft to fly.

If one of the staff at the marketing, sales, ramp, or operations department doesn't show up for work one day, nobody would notice.

If one of the Aircrew doesn't show up to work, that flight stops and the entire operation is affected.

Don't forget it!!

[minglestar]

foward cofg and asianeage:

oh plssssss..... from your posts, it suggests your knowledge of commercial airline operations are very limited, and very ignorant of other aspects that makes the whole operation works. Pilots might have pioneered commercial aviation, but nowadays pilots are just one of many parts needed for a smooth, safe, and economical operation.

Granted that flights will not need be delayed if a marketing manager fails to show up for work. But if a ground engineer fails to show up for work, the plane isn't going anywhere until it is signed-off by the licensed engineer.

Your sense of importance of the role of the pilot in the whole operation is way over-estimated. Pilots can be replaced as easily as ground engineers, ramp agents, cabin crew, marketing managers can be replaced. No one is irreplaceable. Airline operations will not ground to a halt if a few not show up for work.

Also remember, without marketing and sales, there will be no money to pay you and buy shiny new planes. Do not forget it.

[ReverseFlight]

No one is irreplaceable.

Too true. Even airlines are not indispensible - see Oasis, Viva Macau. :{

[spannersatcx]

Please stop, this is embarassing. :ugh:

We all have jobs to do to make money for the shareholders. :ok:

[LongTimeInCX]

Spanners, yes it is somewhat embarrasing, but it is also good for a laugh.
I'm on my second bucket of popcorn already.

On a realistic note, my 2c worth is that I would far prefer that operational crew, ie engineers, pilots etc who are aircraft savvy, and have had a modicum of firefighting training, or, who could provide practical help for any number of possible in flight drama recovery situations, were allowed to jumpseat on the freighter.
No sleight intended to the paper pushers, it's just that most would be more of a hindrance than a help. The probability of them having the spine, training or skillset to don the firefighting kit and play fireman, (or firechick - if one is to be pc), is I believe somewhat remote. There's a greater chance they would just freak out and be an additional problem.

Consequently, I'd rather they, and mingestar, stayed shuffling papers or took a regular passenger flight.

[Rice power]

The use of freighter jumpseats AND upper deck seats frees up demand for seats on pax flight for all to use. As a result EVERYONE benefits.
At the end of the day we are talking about getting families together in times of high loadings eg Xmas/Chinese new year etc.
The jumpseat and who sits in such is the Captain's prerogative and, interestingly, it is a potential revenue stream that the company has yet to take advantage of.
Yes, for those of you trolling this site, CX makes a tidy profit from staff travel.

[Big Picture]

Freighter aircraft aren't equipped for passengers. We don't carry cabin crew to aid in the event of an evacuation and as such ground staff really aren't appropriate. I feel appropriately qualified personnel who are evacuation qualified could be considered. I'm afraid its a self help programme on freighter.

Nothing to do with prejudice. And great to hear so many of you wanting to come fly with us. I hope you understand. Fill your boots on the PAX fleet and enjoy the wonderful CX service and IFE.

BP

[iceman50]

minglestar

Did we fail pilot training?

We are all in the team. But when it comes to giving YOU the jumpseat it is the Captain's decision. Attitude / reputation will probably come into play in that decision making process!

[Pogie]

It is against the CAD rules for carriage of non operating personnel on Hong Kong registered freighters.

Funny how the Mainland CAD doesn't have a problem with it. I know of at least one Mainland cargo carrier that allows their pilots to jumpseat on the freighter.

And why should pilots be given the additional option of getting jumpseat on freigthers over other employees of the company (for leisure travel purposes)?

Simple -- because an extra pilot in the cockpit is an asset (an extra set of eyes who can spot safety concerns). That's why we have 4 guys up front for takeoff and landing during long hauls. Anyone else is a liability or safety hazard in the cockpit. Can you understand the ATC radio transmissions enough to stop talking if you hear a call midway through your life's story? Would you be able to pickup a missed radio call and have the confidence to say "that was for us!" I didn't think so! Only pilots should be allowed in the cockpit. Most others just get in the way, or create unnecessary distractions. There is no cockpit door in the freighter, so the upper deck seats must be considered as being in the cockpit. Also, other than Cabin Crew, no one else takes the necessary yearly evacuation training.

[minglestar]

Simple -- because an extra pilot in the cockpit is an asset (an extra set of eyes who can spot safety concerns). That's why we have 4 guys up front for takeoff and landing during long hauls. Anyone else is a liability or safety hazard in the cockpit. Can you understand the ATC radio transmissions enough to stop talking if you hear a call midway through your life's story? Would you be able to pickup a missed radio call and have the confidence to say "that was for us!" I didn't think so! Only pilots should be allowed in the cockpit. Most others just get in the way, or create unnecessary distractions. There is no cockpit door in the freighter, so the upper deck seats must be considered as being in the cockpit. Also, other than Cabin Crew, no one else takes the necessary yearly evacuation training.Funny you brought this up. And what do we see in the granting of JS on pax aircraft
J1: wife/girlfriends/relatives
J2: other pilots
J3: cabin crew
J4: ground staff
J5: ground staff family

If we are talking about safety and being an asset, the JS priority be the following:
J1:other pilots/ground engineers (no one knows more about the plane's system than the LAME)
J2:ground staff (ramp/load control) / cabin crew
J3:other ground staff
J4:all others

I highly doubt that a pilot jump-seating on the freighter would being seating in the actual cockpit and help out the operating crew. I bet he/she would be sleeping in the bunk for most of the journey. Your argument doesn't hold water.

FYI: some ground staff are just as qualify as most pilots, if not more qualify, to perform the tasks you mentioned. Some are former CAD/FAA/JAA inspectors. Some have advanced PhD's in aerospace engineering - having a hand in designing the plane you fly in. Some are former pilots with other airlines. Just don't look down on all ground staff as if they are all pencil-pushers and ramp-rats. Some have more education and expertise than some pilots.

[Pogie]

Funny you brought this up. And what do we see in the granting of JS on pax aircraft
J1: wife/girlfriends/relatives
J2: other pilots
J3: cabin crew
J4: ground staff
J5: ground staff family

I didn't say that I agreed with that one, either. Most other airlines don't allow you to bring your parents/girlfriends/etc into the cockpit in flight. Why do we? I'm surprised that the FAA even allows that on flights into the US. BTW, on a pax aircraft, we have Cabin Crew to help get your sorry ass out of the plane. On the freighter we don't. You're just another liability for us.

J6: Minge-star

Now that one cracked me up! LOL! Obviously, not seriously pertaining to what were trying to discuss, but I think I did pee my pants a little bit!

FYI: some ground staff are just as qualify as most pilots, if not more qualify, to perform the tasks you mentioned. Some are former CAD/FAA/JAA inspectors. Some have advanced PhD's in aerospace engineering - having a hand in designing the plane you fly in. Some are former pilots with other airlines. Just don't look down on all ground staff as if they are all pencil-pushers and ramp-rats. Some have more education and expertise than some pilots.

That statement just clarified who I'm trying to reason with. What in the heck does an "advanced?" PHD's in anything have to do with anything? All the education in the world doesn't mean crap unless you have current training in the task at hand. That means yearly evacutation/fire-fighting training, and knowledge of what is supposed to be happening in the flightdeck. I'd love for everyone (including Dingle-Berry) to meet these requirements, but unless you're a pilot, I'd hazard a guess that you don't (which is why your so miffed about pilots getting something that you don't, and not about why the company won't allow it when other companies do.)

[Obama57]

Get real. ANC ground staff use the freighter jump seats all the time.