Someone interested in becoming a pilot?

[StaceyF]

Don't laugh.

My best friend's bloke is in the process of being made redundant.

He's 46 with 28 years at the same company.

He's in line for about £28k tax free severance pay and he's saying he always wanted to be a pilot :)

I told him I'd ask questions amongst those who know, i.e you lot :)

So, here goes:

(1) is he too old?
(2) would £28k get him enough training to get a licence to fly commercials?
(3) are there actually any jobs going if he were to obtain said qualifications?
(4) what salary etc would he be looking at?

Thanks in advance :)

[pipertommy]

No jobs with airlines til 2013 plus....... :(

[minimad]

Not talking about pipertommy, but there are a lot of negative people on here so take them with a pinch of salt. I'd say go for it, especially if its what your mates always wanted to do, 28k could get you quite far, and definately to the commercial license.

[767200ER]

28K would get him quite far and he will definately need significantly less from a bank in that case.
If he starts now, by the time he finishes, the reality is that nobody knows what will be available. Despite the numerous "experts" on here.
Its not rosy(right now), but its not totally hopeless either but myself and 6 of my friends who finished training in the past 6 months have all gotten interviews and subsequent employment with Ryanair. Sitting on a licence waiting for an opportunity if he is decided on this line of work and can manage the financial side of it makes more sense than waiting to start when things pick up, by the time he finishes the ship will have probably sailed.

It won't be a walk in the park and there is a chance that it could take a very long time before he sees a proper paid job come his way, but on the back of that he may be fortunate and get something within a few months.
The botttom line is he has to look at his financial position and how long he can afford to be unemployed but qualified and service any debts.

I wish him all the best! :)

[HappyFran]

I'm one of the luck ones who has got a job, I really don't have any reason to sound negative, but to get into the cockpit of a commercial aircraft, from zero is going to cost ~£75,000 and at least 2 years with no income.
So the real question is how badly/seriously does he want to do this???
I don't know your friend, but the first question I would ask is has he had any flying experience at 46 if not why not ???
If he is truely serious then maybe start cautiously by checking out a local flying school and consider doing a PPL and then take it from there

[Coffin Corner]

Not talking about pipertommy, but there are a lot of negative people on here so take them with a pinch of salt. I'd say go for it, especially if its what your mates always wanted to do, 28k could get you quite far, and definately to the commercial license.

Those negative people are mostly people within the industry who have a fair idea of what they are talking about, minimad if you are not in the industry, or haven't been for a sustained period (judging by your age you haven't been) then what qualifies you to tell others to "take them with a pinch of salt"? :ugh:

Personally speaking Stacey your friend will be nearing 50 by the time he's finished his training, I would say he is completely bonkers to waste his severance pay on flight training, unless of course he can afford to lose the lot, in which case there's no harm in trying.

[MIKECR]

Absolutely agree with coffin corner....he'd be madder than the maddest thing you could think off. Realistically, he's going to have to fork out at least double the 28k for training(add living costs for 18 months to 2 years on top of that assuming he trained full time), then at least another minimum 12- 15k for type rating....and then assuming he's the luckiest man alive...he might just get himself a job that pays him 20k a year. If he's willing to go the full hog then go to one of the integrated schools and spend 80k for your licence and then another 25k on top of that for a type rating with a job with ryanair. Either way, he'll be pushing 50....best keep the severance pay and maybe do a PPL and enjoy the flying on the social side.

[pipertommy]

What he could plan on:

Get another job asap and bank a chunk of his 28k, do a PPL/hour build/ATPL-CPL exams/CPL/FI course and enjoy instructing most weekends.

[Nashers]

28k is good however he will need round about 70k including all living expences if he has to travel far, as well as skills test and materials etc.

with about 2 years full time training he will be about 48 or so by the time he coems out. from what i have read and know about the industry that is alot older than normal. he may be lucky and get a job, however some airlines may not take him on as by the time he will be ready to become captain, its time for him to retire. that is ofcourse if he gets a job fresh out of school...

[wangus]

Hmmmm...... Please listen to coffin corner. Nobody can predict where this industry is going. I was one of the guys who was sold a fantasy by a flight school as I followed my dream also, and that was at 28 years old. Been qualified well over two years now, and never a single interview. I think many of us are guilty of seeing only the positive side of aviation. Flight training is an effective way to haemorrhage money.
I think you SHOULD advise your friend to complete a PPL. Hour building post PPL was the most enjoyable stage of my flying "career". VFR flying across the UK, the channel, etc., into grass landing strips, flying over beaches, doing wing overs, taking friends up, etc. All a lot of fun. That will cost circa £5000. Then decide if it's for you/him/her.
Just be aware how many unemployed, EXPERIENCED flight crew there are out there.

With regards to the 6 out of 6 comment getting Ryanair jobs, be aware of the initial expenditure. Look at this link please. Scroll down and note the type rating cost of 27,500 Euros. That is the redundacy payment effectively gone. I AM NOT SLATING RYANAIR, RATHER POINTING OUT THE TYPE RATING COST.

https://pilot.cae.com/Programs/Ryanair.aspx?prog=6

Financial Structure Assessment fee: € 350 Type Rating Course: € 27,500 excluding VAT Extra costs (travelling, housing, ID application, etc.): at cost, payable by student.

I'm still chasing the dream, because I simply cannot walk away from my hefty investment, BUT, if something else good comes up, I'll happilly put flying firmly on the back burner.

GOOD LUCK.

[G SXTY]

Health Warning:

Much of the "go for it", "follow your heart", "don't listen to the naysayers" type of advice comes from wannabes with much enthusiasm but no commercial flying experience. Much of the 'negative' advice (realistic, if you prefer) comes from people who have been in the industry a few years and are pretty familiar with the ways of pilot recruitment. Your friend would be well advised to bear that in mind.;)

To answer your questions:

(1) Age is less of an issue than it was, but 46 is pushing it a bit, as he would be at least 48 before he qualified. Not impossible, particularly when times are good (it's not unknown for people to get into the industry in their 50s) but it will be a challenge.

(2) Nope, £28k is not nearly enough. Zero hours to CPL/IR (the basic qualification to fly commercially) would cost a minimum of around £40-45k via the modular route, or £65k+ with integrated training. Many airlines (not least Ryanair) also require new entrants to pay for their initial type rating, so you can add another £20k or so to that total.

(3) Very, very few jobs for inexperienced pilots at the moment, with many hundreds of people chasing them (I guess that makes me sound negative, but reality can be a kicker sometimes). The market will improve eventually, but probably not in any significant way for at least a couple of years.

(4) As a flying instructor, £10-15k, as a turboprop FO, low to mid twenties, as a jet FO, £40k+ (but that kind of starting salary would probably require paying up front for a type rating). It's not a lot considering the cost of training, particularly if you only have a 15 year career to pay back the investment.

Frankly, given your friend's age, the state of the job market and the amount of cash coming his way, I would be looking to do a PPL and have some fun flying privately. To me, the potential benefits of him changing career right now would be outweighed by the risks.

[minimad]

To coffin corner, I wasn't talking about going for the left hand seat of an airliner in particular, but that commercial flying isnt totally out of reach. There are many other types of commercial flying other than for airlines or am i mistaken?. If youve got so much experience I would of thought you knew that was what I was getting at!

[johnnyDB]

If his dream is just of becoming a pilot, he should do it! but he should however in no case do it if he intends the training as an investment to a job on the line. 'cause i'm afraid in don't see it happening in his case.

[Otto Throttle]

Stacey,

Your friend has to question his motives for wanting to be a pilot very carefully. What exactly is it that he wants from a flying career? Does he really understand the lifestyle of your 'average' newly-qualified FO in the UK?

As the other posters have said, given the combination of his age, the cost of training, and the jobs market for new FOs, it is fair to say that he will not recoup the cost of his training over the course of a very short career, and he may find himself at a relative disadvantage.

The aviation industry is also a notoriously fickle mistress, and regardless how good the recruitment prospects may appear, there could be almost anything lurking around the corner which brings it all to a screeching halt overnight (for me, it was 9/11). The industry always recovers eventually, but your friend needs to understand the risks as time is not on his side.

It is undeniably a great way to spend your working day (even the bad days kick the cr@p out of a normal job), but the pay and time off are not what many people expect, and any glamour has long gone. If it is just the simple thrill of flying that your friend seeks, then there are many, many ways you could spend £28K indulging this passion, including a variety of additional rating sto a PPL and a share in something interesting and rewarding to fly, instead of the standard garbage built by Piper and Cessna.

I would urge him to think about his choices very carefully indeed, and if he chooses to pursue a career in the industry, to walk into it with his eyes wide open to the many pitfalls ahead.

Either way, wish him the best of luck.

[minimad]

To coffin corner .I never said spend all your money. all i was saying if he wants to become a pilot he should. And I have plenty of life experience mate, just because im 21 it dosnt mean I sit around on my arse. I'm sorry if i sound a little naive but If I come against a problem, I find a solution and crack on. Sounds like you've given up! Being realistic and possitive is key, being negative is just another obstacle to deal with!

[Coffin Corner]

How can you possibly have plenty of life experience at 21?
And you basically advised this person to spend his 28k, which, in your words would get him "quite far", this means he'll have to spend alot more money, and if he's being made redundant that means spending "all" his money.
Where in your 2-3 posts were you being realistic?

CC

p.s. I haven't given up, I'm already there, with my eyes wide open, we're just waiting for you lot to "come aboard"

[pipertommy]

lol:ok: Liked the last bit...

[philc1983]

Sorry minimad but i have to disagree. You are confusing negativity with being realistic. Listen to what is being said.

As someone who was very enthusiastic and ever optimistic of any situation; life can teach you some very harsh lessons. Once you have your licence and start using it commercially it is a totally different ball game.

Yes you sound naive and I know many 21/22 year olds who are much more informed than you are so age isn't an excuse for giving dreadful advice.

Positivity is key but I guess you'll learn that there needs to be rational thought at the heart of every decision not boundless over excitement.

[Matt101]

Tell him to go for it. PPL, IMC, Night Qual then enjoy what that licence will allow him to do in his free time, (getting that far will be good fun and should leave a fair bit of the £28K left). Beyond that it'll be up to him and I, at my tender age, would never give out any advice on that.

[G SXTY]

his perception of the lifestyle etc of a pilot differ violently from your real life experiences

That Virgin ad has got a lot to answer for. :)

[ToneTheWone]

I wouldn't normally comment on this thread but tonight I've had a bit of a skinful, so I'm going to!

To Stacy, I would say that your friend has vertually no chace of making a career in the industry starting at his age for more reasons than I care to mention. Very sad but true, but then that's the same in many professioal careers. Good luck to him whatever he does in the future, but I don't think aviation is a wise choice.

To Minimad, well the clue is in your title - "you are not the full ticket!"

[corsair]

A good decision I think, Stacey. I would have questioned his motivation anyway. Aged 46 is way too late to 'discover' an interest in being a pilot. Not so lucky are the younger people who fall for the spin particularly that issued by flight schools. 'Become an airline pilot' 'Airline pilot training'. The pages of this forum are filled with the victims of this ongoing con. They have age on their side and find the money for it. Too late they discover the truth.

For many of them the real interest they have in the career is the perceived lifestyle and money. The idea of being an airline pilot rather than being a pilot or a desire to fly.

Even if you have a passion for flying, reality soon intrudes. It has for me. Currently I am looking for a way out of it. But ironically considering my one time enthusiasm for flying as a career, I'm trapped as I can't afford to quit. Flying can still be fun but as many pilots will tell you it's all the other stuff that kills the enthusiasm. Long hours, low pay, being away from the family at weekends and the constant tiredness. I'm not an airline pilot and never will be now but apart from the low pay it's pretty much the same for many of them.

Having gone through and come out the other side. I wonder what madness made me want to fly for a living.:ugh:

[767200ER]

@corsair, its a shame that you have not enjoyed your career, however there are many many many other pilots who enjoy almost everyday of their career from an early age to retirement, i don't think its true that us "younger people" have been sold a lemon of a career that we will eternally regret, that is an unfair assumption, each to their own.

I didn't get into this industry for the glamour or lifestyle, i have loved aeroplanes fanatically quite possibly to the point of obsession from a very early age.

It is true that men and women will always complain, the unemployed will complain about not having a job while the employed will complain about having a job, the bits they don't like etc. But i really doubt every pilot dreads going to work

[corsair]

I didn't get into this industry for the glamour or lifestyle, i have loved aeroplanes fanatically quite possibly to the point of obsession from a very early age. Ditto, still do to some extent. Really though I was referring to those who are lured in by the idea of being an 'airline pilot' as opposed to someone like you or me for whom it was a vocation.

I don't say that every pilot dreads going into work because it isn't true. I certainly don't. But for me the upside is no longer balanced by the downside. I recently flew 33 hours in just over a week. That also meant a lot of driving, long days hanging around airports, eating poorly, being away from home etc. There is a certain grim satisfaction in that but it's exhausting and no fun at all by the end. Spending 7 or 8 hours a day in the cockpit of an aeroplane soon loses it's charm. That will always dent your enthusiasm.

You are young and at the start of your career. I'm seeking to end it with grace. Differing perspectives. I have a wife and young family. I'm guessing you don't yet. That all colours your viewpoint.

As I said, I still enjoy the flying mostly but not the rest of it. In the end you have to decide. Is the flying enough? Because all too often it's the only thing keeping you interested. Once that wanes, as it has for me. You have take a long hard look at the rest of it.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

G SXTY has summed it up perfectly in his first post, credit to you sir!

I cringe when I read stuff like "follow your heart" etc. Get real! Get a grip and make money! Follow your heart to bankruptcy, crap flying rosters, horrible management and bitter cabin crew... no thank you!

[aviator78]

Hi, I also need some advice.

I'm 32 and have been accepted to train at a UK training academy. My concern is my age. When I finish my training I will be nearly 34 and I have been told that I will struggle to find a job with a good airline such as Easyjet, Ryaniar, BA. etc because of my age.

I need honest advice from people in the industry before I spend £75,000 and end up struggling.

Thanks

[G SXTY]

Do you count Flybe as a 'good' airline? Because I got my first job with them aged 36. And I didn't spend £75k either.

Personally I wouldn't believe any careers 'advice' from any FTO, however slick their marketing.

[markc80]

Good news for me at 30, thanks G SXTY.Hopefully in a 2-3 years things will be a little better and it'll be time for me to start, or be mid-way through training.

As a self-confessed uberwannabe who's totally got his head in the clouds, even I'd say that someone who's 46 would have a really hard time getting employment as a newly-qualified pilot.

I'm just gonna work and save hard and keep my eyes open for opportunities. Good luck to all though.

[OutsideCAS]

.....reading the post's with regard to pro's and con's etc., well, have to say i am more in the "camp" that Corsair mentions - not wishing to appear negative but IMHO, with £28k on the hip, the last place i would be investing the cash is a career as a Commercial Pilot at this given place in space and time - the opportunities, rewards and enjoyment are just not there and are not in line with the time, effort and money spent to obtain the necessary qualifications.
I personally came to the above conclusions by looking at my own flying career thus far, many will do the same and come to their own conclusions totally in opposition to mine - and this i understand, as to be fair a totally different experience can be gained from, say working for a large-ish airline as opposed to working for a biz-jet operator (my arena).
My advice, and it is only advice, if i had my time again i would certainly fly but it would only be on a private, recreational level as i would satisfy my flying passion without the expenditure i still experience today - sad ? yes, for sure, i just wish i'd been more honest with myself in the early days of looking into training - i had a desire, passion and probably wouldn't have believed the negativity displayed on here had i read it - not all of course is true and lots of posts need resigning to the "delete" option, but it certainly isn't what i thought it was in the beginning - and i worked my way through many facets of aviation before "taking the plunge", so was what i thought to be a fairly un-biased idea i had - how wrong i was !
Anyway, for all future aspiring commercial pilots, be very, very careful when debating the pro's and con's as it is sooooo easy to convince yourself it's all going to be plain sailing for you when presented with overwhelming odds to the contrary.....i've been there and seen and done it trust me, and so have many others as well. If you still choose this industry, well i hope it works out well for you, for some it does no doubt BUT please assess very carefully and try, try, try to be emotionally removed and level headed about your expectations - failing that, ask an independent financial adviser or city type investor (a good one !? lol) if they would "invest" hypothetically in your "business idea" - if a "yes", well maybe you have the right idea, or as i suspect, a "no" then maybe, just maybe a second look at what your about to embark on might well be in order - after all, you need a return on your investment - or your could be inclined to sucuumb to a further "investment opportunity" at a certain irish carrier ??!! - down to the individual i guess.

:ok:

[JASPA]

So M 80 if your mid 40's your over the hill & because your 30ish your ok :mad:

[markc80]

No, I don't think that you're over the hill, just not the best career to embark upon, primarily because of the state of the industry, not because of the person's age.

I envisaged: qualifying 48-49. Begin search for employment, which could take (perhaps somewhat optimistically) around a year in 2012. Job at 50. I just think that with people's unacceptable and illegal biases taken in to account, it may not be the best idea. That's just one element of the decision making process to be considered. The decision is his to make - he may want to go up against and challenge that prejudice (please don't deny that it exists!).

FYI I recently hired some people for my company and chose to employ one person who happened to be 48.

Got nothing against age at all. Without going in to detail I have had enough experience of discrimination to know not to practise it myself.

This thread is for deliberation, consideration of the realistic consequences, prospects, options and implications & my post was meant as nowt else.

As I wrote before: good luck to all, 20 or even if they're 70! Hell knows we ALL need it!