British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only) [Archive] - Page 2

Eddy

23rd Jun 2010, 22:35

It's going to be extremely interesting to learn the result of the forthcoming ballot, and I'm gutted it's going to take as long as a month before we get anything back.

The last two times I flew during a strike, there were a few crew members on my trips who had gone on strike in the past, lost staff travel, but decided that enough was enough and that they'd lost faith in Bassa.

So I cannot help but wonder how these people are likely to vote?!

They see no point in striking and have made that clear by coming to work.... But without a strike they will probably wave goodbye to their staff travel forever (:ugh:) If there's a no-vote for the next ballot, the company will stop considering any form of return of staff travel so everyone who has lost staff travel thus far will be voting, effectively, for it to be gone for good.

However, if they vote in favour of a strike to get staff travel back, well, Walsh has already shown that he can run the operation rather well despite the industrial action because of support from crew and other areas of the business. So the company keeps running, the strike comes to an end with lots of crew struggling to pay their bills, and staff travel remains a distant memory.

I flew with a guy on a strike-trip who said he had come to work and sent Mr. Francis an email asking for the return of his staff travel, considering his decision to return to work.

I don't know the outcome, though.

And let's just remember that, in the past, Bassa told us all that staff travel "couldn't be removed", that if it were removed it could "be got back in five seconds" and that its removal is "illegal". So why not go to court and humiliate Walsh if they're so sure?

I maintain a great deal of respect for my colleagues who have chosen to go on strike to stand up for what they believe in, but I wish they'd realise that this one is over.

There's almost bound to be another opportunity in the future to stand up against the company and many of those crew who have worked during this dispute will join the number on the picket lines; but this one is over.

DeThirdDefect

23rd Jun 2010, 22:38

I still think its a strange way to conduct a ballot, though.
No disagreement from me on that.
It looks like an admission that not only have they failed to convince the bulk of the wider public of merits their case in the dispute and failed to convince the bulk of their colleagues in the rest of the airline, they don't even appear to have the support of all but a few of their colleagues in the same department at a different base.

Vld1977

23rd Jun 2010, 23:28

Hiflyer14,

I understand your point of view, but I also understand the point of view of the average CC, even if they are not happy with BASSA. BASSA is a BA-only CC association, federated into the UNITE union (previously T&GWU). If I was crew and they asked me to join a bargaining group that is not in any big union, I would be quite reticent to do so. Has it got the financial power to carry out their tasks? Can they offer all the services that unions are capable of, like legal services? Have they got the infrastructure and money to train their reps and employ the administrative staff they need?
If the PCCC wants to represent cabin crew properly (and this is my opinion only, Hiflyer) it has to be integrated into a bigger union (Unite, GMB, RMT, whatever) for it to have real bargaining power. CC and BA are equally not happy with BASSA, but both parties still recognise Unite as a valid representation body. Personally, I would need much more than the prospect of getting rid of BASSA and being the voice of BA CC. I would need assurance that the PCCC is included in the legal framework for bargaining, and today, that can only be achieved by belonging to well-established union.

PCCC as an association of staff can only make suggestions to the company, PCCC as part of a union, have the legal right and means to negotiate. People will not join just because BASSA screwed up this time, they will want a version of BASSA that won´t screw up. What I´ve heard from some friends is that PCCC is a good idea, but the fact that it´s shown as an alternative to BASSA, and the rethoric it uses, makes people think that it´s an anti-union, exclusive CC club that will work with the company no matter what, even in the face of real threats. That´s what is scaring them off. So I believe the question would be, are you prepared to integrate into a big union to have the negotiating framework once you get the right number of affiliations? Or are you planning to stay as a BA only CC association without bargaining power? This is very important for many people.

WW was a former union negotiator. I believe he knows of the problems involved with sectorial representation of the workforce. He still prefers Unite as a bargaining force in BA, he just wants to get rid of the BASSA hard liners.

ANstar

24th Jun 2010, 05:49

initially, only BA staff can apply for cabin crew posts

I believe the hold poolers have also bee invited for interviews in July which hints that there is some external CC recruitment taking place.

ptc

24th Jun 2010, 06:47

I can confirm th following

The Ex Temps in the hold pool have been invited to pick an assessment day for MF, they didn't have to complete the online application form and have been told if they are successful at assessment they will get permanent MF.

Current Temps - Can apply internally as can other existing BA cc, BUT, we have to complete the application form to be able to chosen for assessment.

My question is this, how come folk outside the company (ex temps), be able to bypass the application form stage but those in BA need to complete this??:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Middy

24th Jun 2010, 08:00

ptc, Don't ask your question on this forum. Ask IFCE management team the question and then at least you will get a definitive answer and not one based on rumour control.

Betty girl

24th Jun 2010, 08:17

I do think it is going to be hard for BA to recruit staff to this new fleet. I think some crew may find CSM attractive but that job is only open to people with previous supervisory experience. Many of the cabin crew that would have liked to apply cannot because of this. They will have to apply for the new tallent position which only pays 12K.

I know that alot of people on this forum don't think cabin crew should be payed much but this new fleets rates of pay are very low.

11k + 2.50 duty pay per hour.
So for a ten hour day £25 (before tax) duty pay
For a 3 day trip ( 3 full days) £145 before tax.

Take home pay will be very low and probably qualify for tax credits.
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive particularily crew from other airlines even if they did get the CSM job, they would have to be leaving a supervisory position already in their current airline and I am just not sure these pay rates will attract them.

Anyway I know that some main crew were thinking of moving accross and I am not sure this deal will attract them over now.

malcolmf

24th Jun 2010, 08:19

Big advert in the Mail today.

License to Fly

24th Jun 2010, 08:23

My question is this, how come folk outside the company (ex temps), be able to bypass the application form stage but those in BA need to complete this??

Perhaps this is the way BA can keep the best of the current crew and not the, how do it put it politely, 'lower performers'

ptc

24th Jun 2010, 09:00

Middy, you are prob correct i saying the only people who can answer this is IFCE, though what License to Fly states ia also probably true, that this enables BA to pick which crew they actually want on MF.

What is confusing is that both sets of temps, both ex and current are being treated differently!!

Anyway, im sure the right people who have the passion for MF will be successful so its all irrelevant in the long run!

spin_doctor

24th Jun 2010, 09:03

I do think it is going to be hard for BA to recruit staff to this new fleet.

Take home pay will be very low and probably qualify for tax credits.
I am not sure that alot of people will find this that attractive

From Bloombergs website:

Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne is set to outline the deepest spending cuts in a generation in an emergency budget next week, which may hamper the recovery after two quarters of growth. Public-sector job losses may push unemployment close to 3 million by 2012, according to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development.

I think there will be plenty of applicants.

Betty girl

24th Jun 2010, 09:12

Being a more moderate crew member who did not strike and wanted a union who negotiated I do find it upsetting how some people who post on here seem to be reveling at this offer and almost rubbing your hands with glee at how bad it is.

You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.

Re-Heat

24th Jun 2010, 09:30

I wouldn't assume that everyone "revelling in it" is flight crew. Remember that this is an anonymous forum...

It is sad to see such a low wage, but the job is a popular one, and market wages are what they are.

At least it seems to be duty hours and not flight hours, so scope for around £15k might exist, all in, which is the equivalent of £18k in the real world once the lower tax rate on duty pay is taken into effect.

I can see quite a number of experienced customer service-oriented people being attracted to such a role.

wheelie my boeing

24th Jun 2010, 09:31

You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.

Betty girl, I have stayed quiet so far but I have to say something now. That is a rather arrogant view to hold... I don't beg "you cabin crew" to come out when downroute. If they want to, fine, if not then I don't really care. I don't think having your company is as valuable as you think.

Re-Heat

24th Jun 2010, 09:34

Wheelie...back to the CRM course for you...

Seriously, could you at least make a stab at diplomacy...?

wheelie my boeing

24th Jun 2010, 09:36

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with CRM. This is the problem today in BA. Cabin crew think that CRM is about being fluffy and nice to each other. It is not. It is about the Captain getting the most from HIS/HER crew.

Re-Heat

24th Jun 2010, 09:42

Exactly. And you don't achieve that through telling people that you have no interest in their companionship for the period in which you operate together as a crew.

CRM is all about the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to achieve the goal of getting people to do their jobs properly and get the most from the crew. What you don't seem to understand is that you are dealing with people and not machines in that process, through that very statement on your perceived value on those people.

Sporran

24th Jun 2010, 09:46

Diplomacy is very difficult when you are constantly insulted and denigrated - purely for doing a job you love!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

I still go out of my way to treat ALL cabin crew members in an equal and fair manner. Unfortunately, at present there are some seriously miserable cabin crew nenbers whose behaviour borders on the insolent and insulting. That is NOT acceptable behaviour!

I take no personal pleasure in seeing the angst and annoyance at a lot of our genuinely decent cabin crew. Their opinions and feelings have value to me because they are usually the people who are a pleasure to fly with and in working as 'one team' the pax get a better experience.

On the other hand I have no sympathy for the militants who have caused so much anger amongst 99% of BA employees at their totally intansigent and selfish attitude throughout the whole dispute. It is TOTALLY that intransigent and selfish attitude that has brought about the very swift birth of NF.

max_cont

24th Jun 2010, 09:47

clublemon

24th Jun 2010, 10:02

As an outsider working for another airline, it seems no one is uncomfortable with being judge jury and executioner.

Willey is happy to keep this fight going, why? Is it because in reality the company is not in danger of going bust? Does he need to win this fight for what comes next?

If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.

The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.

If "Swissport" is next on the agenda then so be it. Im not trying to stir things here but if this is the next step in "cutting costs and maximising shareholder value" then I wont stand in the way.

Its not just in BA but probably right across the board that a good percentage of "PSU" or "Customer Services" "insert" are taking home upward of 2.5k a month.....and the airline industry cannot afford that. Maybe in the past...but certainly not now.

Dont get me wrong I think it would be wonderful if "Everyone" could win but unfortunately....these sorts of salaries cannot be maintained.

hunterboy

24th Jun 2010, 10:05

I think many BA staff recognise that times are changing, and that some of us will be changing work practices or be unemployed in the future.
Unfortunately, some other staff don't.
I think that they are in for an unpleasant surprise, despite being warned by the management and their colleagues.
I do wonder what these people do in their spare time if they don't read the papers or watch the news? It doesn't take a degree to see that future oil prices, the rise of the Arab carriers, Open Skies, open skies, increased aviation taxes and the toughest economic and demographic conditions for a couple of generations are all going against the airline industry and BA in particular.
Just saying "No" and stamping your feet isn't going to stop the changes.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 10:08

You pilots won't be so happy when you are unable to find any crew who can afford to go out for a drink with you.To be fair, fewer and fewer crew are going out for drinks anyway, with pilots or other cabin crew. Certainly on night stops I usually find myself being the only cabin crew member out with the flight crew as everyone else is "too tired".

I don't think not having cash will make any difference to people's drinking habits.

I did a Singapore recently (yes, a Singapore :rolleyes:) and we had a temp on the crew. £11k basic plus £2.54 (or whatever) and hour. He was out every night for the full duration.

If people want to go for a drink, they will. It's also why Gatwick remains such a sociable fleet despite the low earnings.

Re-Heat

24th Jun 2010, 10:15

Max cont - your position is both financially naive and alarmist as to the actions of those trying to run the company.

BA, and most airlines do run a high risk of going bust. It is a cutthroat market, and many have failed in the past. BA's finances are not exactly rosy, with huge pension and debt liabilities. As Greece, Lehman and AIG prove, if your investors lose faith in you, the ground is not far away at all. When the IFCE cost base is so far removed from that of the competition, management have to act.

Management will always be looking for a way to cut costs - one would be naive to think otherwise. It is how companies survive and thrive in the long-term, and their employees will benefit as well to the extent that there is a company to pay their pension, and a company that can employ them, even raising salaries in future if the company achieves efficiencies better than competitors.

Unions seem to fail to realise that it is a symbiotic relationship - without the company, there is no industrial-corporatist state these days to keep them going. The days for the industrial-social collective are long gone and discredited - we could not afford it in the 1960s and we cannot afford it now as taxpayers.

If the company can survive and compete against those such as Emirates that continue to take the lead in operating and market efficiencies, the company might survive in the long-run. If not, then it is time for everyone to retrain.

max_cont

24th Jun 2010, 10:38

hunterboy, I believe some of you are going to be unemployed because of what you do.

Willey has plans for you and your helping him achieve that.

Times are a changing, but notice, only for the workforce…not for Willey and his cohorts’

No boss worth his salt is going to forgo the opportunity to savage the T&C’s of his workforce while he can blame it on the economic situation. The sweetener is he then reaps huge bonuses in figures that would set you up for life.

If you guys believe that working for subsistence salary is a good business model you’re deluded. BA will stand on its business model, not because it pays its CC 7K or whatever.

Re-Heat, No I’m fully aware of the driving force for CEO’s in business.

I think you will find that unions are fully aware of the symbiotic relationship they have with the companies…it seems to me it’s the bosses that have forgotten.

I also know that once T&C’s are lost they are gone for good. It matters not one jot about any future saving the company makes, or any sudden economic upturn. The work force will not see anything for their efforts or sacrifices. There will be no huge bonuses on offer or golden parachutes when they move on to pastures new.

CEO’s think in 5 year terms. For them that is long term. That’s usually how long they hang around. I’ve watched many come and go, the story is the same. Screw everything and everyone, get your bonuses then move on.

Abbey Road

24th Jun 2010, 11:11

Found this at Walesonline.co.uk but I suspect it will be elsewhere too.

WalesOnline - News - UK News - BA recruits new staff to cut costs (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/2010/06/24/ba-recruits-new-staff-to-cut-costs-91466-26716950/)

BA recruits new staff to cut costs 24 June 2010

British Airways has launched a recruitment drive for new cabin crew under plans to cut costs as it faces the prospect of a fresh wave of strikes.
The airline advertised for cabin crew to operate in a separate fleet from existing employees, saying it could no longer afford the difference in crew costs at Heathrow airport, which were "way out of line" with its competitors.
BA said it aims to recruit 1,250 new crew in the first year and estimates that in 10 years' time, new crew will represent around 40% of the total.
Total earnings for new crew will vary according to salary, duty hours and performance and will be similar to current Gatwick rates, which are lower than at Heathrow.
http://trinitymirror.grapeshot.co.uk/redirect.cgi?target=http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/ad/icwales2.5293/article_mpu;slot=article%5Fmpu;zone=news;zone1=uk%2Dnews;sec t=uk%2Dnews;templ=page;cat=News;reg=Wales;st=r2;oid=26716950 ;sz=300x250;gs_cat=GS_CHANNELS;tile=4;ord=770121064? (http://trinitymirror.grapeshot.co.uk/redirect.cgi?target=http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/jump/icwales2.5293/article_mpu;slot=article%5Fmpu;zone=news;zone1=uk%2Dnews;sec t=uk%2Dnews;templ=page;cat=News;reg=Wales;st=r2;oid=26716950 ;sz=300x250;gs_cat=GS_CHANNELS;tile=4;ord=770121064?)

A BA spokesman said: "We have suffered back-to-back record financial losses and need to continue making permanent changes to our cost base to ensure our long-term survival.
"It is common knowledge that our Heathrow cabin crew costs are way out of line with our competitors and much more than our cabin crew costs at Gatwick. We can no longer afford this cost difference.
"In our discussions with Unite over the last 18 months, we have been absolutely open about our plans for future recruitment. We have provided regular assurances to the union and our crew that these changes will not alter the individual contractual terms and conditions for current crew."
BA said current crew rates on short-haul routes were around £25,700 at Heathrow and £18,200 at Gatwick while for long-haul routes it was almost £35,000 at Heathrow.
The new crew will fly on a separate fleet, in new cabin crew teams and not mixed with current crew. They will fly on both long and short-haul routes, said BA, adding that current crew have the option to apply to join the new crew fleet.
Unite announced earlier this week that it will hold a fresh strike ballot among its 12,000 cabin crew members unless there is a breakthrough to their deadlocked row with the airline by next Tuesday. Voting will take a month, raising the threat of walkouts in the busy month of August. Unite has already taken 22 days of strike action since March, costing the airline more than £150 million1250 new crew in the first year! A bold move!

Sounds like it will be constituted cabin crews too. A bit tricky to be flexible with at first, but eventually they will become the majority, and I suppose the need for constituted crews will stop.

I don't think not having cash will make any difference to people's drinking habits.
I did a Singapore recently (yes, a Singapore :rolleyes:) and we had a temp on the crew. £11k basic plus £2.54 (or whatever) and hour. He was out every night for the full duration.
If people want to go for a drink, they will. It's also why Gatwick remains such a sociable fleet despite the low earnings.I have found that some cabin crew have other incomes, so it is often bugger all to do with what their cabin crew salary is, whether they come out for a drink/dinner or not. Many of them are very entrepreneurial!

anotherthing

24th Jun 2010, 12:16

I'm not cabin crew, but am in the industry (ATCO), so please allow me one question as the subject seems to have been skipped over because of the new vacancy adverst...

If Unite are selective in who they ballot, how will this work? What will they count as a percentage?

i.e. lets just say that UNITE BA cabin crew numbers are 10,000.
Lets also say that 5,000 are balloted, and 5000 are not.
Lets then say that 3,000 vote in favour of a strike.

Does this then count as a 60% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 5000) or does it really count as a 30% 'yes' vote (i.e. 3000 out of 10000)?

I really cannot understand how the union can decide who is eligible to vote and who isn't when all unite ba CC members are part of the union. I personally think that legally, it will be very easy to challenge if they were to claim 60% in the above example as it is not a true indication of the BA CC membership.

Balloting only some of your members is not only undemocratic, but it makes a mockery of the word 'union' and the principles behind unions.

Any reply on the legality will be appreciated - I will now retire and won't post again.

Thanks :)

spin_doctor

24th Jun 2010, 12:42

I do find it upsetting how some people who post on here seem to be reveling at this offer and almost rubbing your hands with glee at how bad it is

If you were referring to my post, I take no delight in the new terms for cabin crew. My post was merely to express an opinion that in the current economic climate I think it is likely that there will be a lot of interest in these jobs.

fruitbat

24th Jun 2010, 12:49

It's not that the offer is 'bad', it's what BA defines as being market rate for the job. Times have changed, as has the aviation market.

Wirbelsturm

24th Jun 2010, 13:16

Anotherthing,

As far as I am aware the ballot is taken on a majority of returned votes minus any spoiled. Thus, if only LHR are considered eligible to vote as the balloted issues only affect them and not LGW (who BASSA have already sold down the river anyway) then your 60% return would hold true as non returned votes are considered 'yes' in effect.

Bizarre but, hey, this is Unite we are talking about.

The first strike call had a fairly health majority until the members realised what a suicide course their Union was taking. The second came very close to being less than half of the balloted membership.

This one? By limiting it to LHR crews they have a greater proportion of militants within a smaller group.

Bridchen

24th Jun 2010, 14:25

If the latest ballot is applied in this way, there will be NO confidence in the outcome as it will be excluding cabin crew who pay their UNITE dues. Because they don't agree with the union on these issues, it doesn't give UNITE the right to take their vote away. Are they going to refund subs to these "not fit for this purpose" members? Don't hold your breath!

Meanwhile there are a lot of us non-strikers who are stuck between a rubbish union and a company who won't value those who didn't go on strike. No surprise there, but disappointing nonetheless. So we are treated equally with those who damaged the company. I did actually expect this, but there are a lot of shocked people who believed their managers when they told them they would look after them. I didn't think for a minute that they could treat two groups of the same cabin crew community in a different fashion, but why not try to come to an amicable agreement with the last offer of travel payment to go over to new fleet with the previous offer of guarantee of basic with it? Instead, after 22 years of flying, I'd go onto a starters salary. Is it usual to expect that when you start a job, your pay gets slashed to starters rates after nearly a couple of decades of loyalty? Is this going to be applied to other departments?

Nobody is being forced to move, but a lot of us want a settlement for our terms, and if that means integrating with New Fleet, or transferring to it, that's ok, but this is not accomodating anything like that. Yes, BASSA missed the boat in getting it sorted out, but why do the rest of us who didn't agree with this, have to be held ransom for their stance?

Reading back, it looks like I'm whinging - I don't mean it like that. I'm just searching for a solution, but I can't see how the moderate cabin crew community can do that. The militants are now balloting on issues that won't solve anything, and the company isn't offering reasonable transfer conditions onto New Fleet. I don't mind my pay being restructured, and taking a freeze or fair drop, considering the current climate. But I do still have to pay my (not crippling) mortgage, and the transferal salaries currently on offer, would only put me in arrears.

If the militants want to ballot about things that they have no control over and will not change, then they can carry on until the cows come home. I and many others are only interested in a solution that will work and sort out our outstanding issues regarding New Fleet. This just isn't happening at the moment, and there are mumblings on another forum about loss of trust with management and even rejoining the union, the latter not being high on my list, I hasten to add. This is going backwards not forwards, and is very worrying. :ugh:

Express1

24th Jun 2010, 14:36

If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.

The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.

max_cont, as a member of PSU, I can say that we have been long aware of efforts to reduce staff. It hasn't just started with cabin crew or indeed with the reduced gate teams that you mention and we are fully aware that it means potential for jobs to go. Changes in PSU started many years ago, even before T5 and yes, those changes continue today. We have already lost hundreds of staff over the past year who have taken VR and this has allowed us to move forward and to trial some of the changes, such as reduced gate teams. This has all been done with the 2 unions representing PSU, ie Unite and GMB. While not all has gone smoothly between the unions and the company over some of the changes, the difference here is that there have been genuine attempts to work to a mutually agreed solution and various trials have taken place over recent months.

WW himself has said that he believes BA should be handled by it's own staff at its main base, ie LHR and until such time as he or someone else on the leadership team indicates otherwise, I have no reason question this. Will it be the same as when I joined years ago? No, but then I am one of the many who accept that change has to happen and that none of us can hide from it. Does it mean potentially that I might not have a job? Yes, there is always that possibility and this is something that I have faced in various jobs I've held prior to joining BA.

PS, for the record, there are a lot more than 40 PSU who have become volunteer cabin crew, unless you are simply talking about the most recent courses.

P-T-Gamekeeper

24th Jun 2010, 14:43

Bridchen , have a good read of Bill F's latest email. He basically guarantees all that you are looking for. If the next strike goes ahead, I think you will definately see the benefits of backing BA

SlideBustle

24th Jun 2010, 14:53

Hmm not too sure about this MFH to be honest (non-striker, voted No and recognises change is inevitable but we do need protections)

I along with many Main Crew would have been interested at going over as CSM which to many main crew is a reasonable salary (more than I get as MC anyway!) However although I have a couple/few years as crew I do not have previous management experience and haven't been a ''SCCM for a year'' so can't directly go into it (fair enough if there is alot of ground management tasks and training in addition to being SCCM) Now I could go onto that ''Future Talent Crew'' which I can apply for where you work up, are qualified to work up as SCCM out of standby and learn all the skills of CSM over a year and do SCCM assessments etc etc and get CSM training blah blah... but it means for that year I would be on less pay (MFH Main Crew salary which I must admit is quite low!) and - at the end of that year, I could have worked very hard and passed everything etc.... but there may not be any CSM vacancies going so I would have to stay as Main Crew on MFH - and then I wouldn't be able to get back to EF/WW!!

Having said that the CSM role does look very interesting, and as someone with a career ahead of me it does seem like an oppurtunity so I am sort of ''shall I shan't I'' with regards to Future Talent Crew - it would provide the skills and development to get where I would like to be (CSM) and looks like a good development oppurtunity. But if they are saying MFH will grow slowly - what if they don't need CSMs at the end of it and I am on lower pay!!! I could maybe downsize etc for a year whilst I do it that would be fine but I wouldn't then want to be stuck on £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour!

Also, Eurofleet and Worldwide do really need action with regards to safeguards - UNITE need to really look at this now and get serious as it is here, or PCCC need to get their 40% at least and maybe they will get the safeguards of UNITE seem so bothered about balloting - as this ballot will not send Mixed Fleet away - but current fleets NEED safeguards!

legandawing

24th Jun 2010, 14:54

It's not that the offer is 'bad', it's what BA defines as being market rate for the job. Times have changed, as has the aviation market.

Whilst I support BA, it has to be said that the proposed 'Market Rate' is lower than:
Thomson (Mixed Fleet) 11500 basic + 2.85 ph?
Thomascook (Mixed Fleet) 11500 basic + 2.85 ph?
BMI are much higher than this
and Virgin is hard to compare, but BA's offer is no way 10% above.. market rate

BA 11000 basic and 2.40ph :(

I think BA will need to up the salary to be able to keep good crew and not loose out on the cost of training/recruiting only to loose large numbers to other airlines as things pick up.

SlideBustle

24th Jun 2010, 15:02

Legandawing,

I do agree with you, about the Main Crew salary. CSM sounds quite reasonable (for Main Crew to make the jump - not sure about current CSD/PSRs as it probably will be a paycut) although not sure what other airlines pay for their SCCMs??

But the Main Crew salary is quite low. We all know times change and market changes, that is recognised by many of us. But it does seem lower than the charters (Thomson and Thomas Cook that you have quoted show this! Plus they get their commission on DFs/drinks/snacks/other sales!) and even BMI. Not forgetting Easyjet which their salary is probably the next highest after current BAs (new contract) some people on EF say they get around the same as they did at EZY! The only airline that Mixed Fleet maybe higher than (even that is questionable as not sure about their allowance system) is Virgin - oh and maybe Ryanair!

Unless I am missing something?? Although it goes without saying BA WILL get their crew for this fleet for the glamour and flying a mixture of longhaul and shorthaul. Especially people out of uni etc... It will mostly be young people I should imagine, but turnover will be much higher. Like you say though, whilst BA say turnover is healthy (I suppose it is) too high a turnover will increase costs in training etc etc....

It will be interesting to see though.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh just a thought - maybe the Performance Pay element they will introduce WILL make the salary market rate plus 10% - the temps currently are only getting the £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour but the new proposals from BA and the new MFH website shows Performance Pay and bonuses. So maybe the salary isn't as set in stone as we thought?

Bridchen

24th Jun 2010, 15:07

SlideBustle, I agree! P-T Gamekeeper, I know what you mean regarding BF's email, but the guarantees are only applied to our current fleets. If we transferred we would sign a new contract and those guarantees would become defunct. It also doesn't address our main problem - that of our current fleets being wound down, and our integration onto the new fleet. I've still got at least 18 years to go, and so this is of concern to me. Like SlideBustle said, CSM training is no guarantee of promotion. It could even be just a carrot that ends up having no substance. Of course you cannot guarantee someone promotion, but then, really, just interview them as with the current process!

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 15:32

I am reliably informed that EVERYONE is having to submit an application for these new jobs - whether in the holding pool or not. Previous suggestions that ex-temps currently in the pool are being allowed to bypass the application form stage are, according to my 'sources', inaccurate.

Wheezyjet

24th Jun 2010, 15:43

I have four friends in the holding pool - three ex-temps and one who was selected last year but is yet to fly. All have been given interview dates without having had to submit an application form. Nontheless, I do not see completion of the form to be a problem (it's not particularly demanding) and it is likely to be very useful as a preparation aid when getting ready for the assessment.

Human Factor

24th Jun 2010, 16:08

I think BA will need to up the salary to be able to keep good crew and not loose out on the cost of training/recruiting only to loose large numbers to other airlines as things pick up.

No doubt a salary enhancement has been factored into the budget, should it become necessary. Whether or not it will be necessary to increase it will depend upon recruitment and retention rates on the new fleet. The company will be planning for most crew to stay for a relatively short period anyway (two to three years) so the turnover is likely to be higher than on the existing fleets. If they can get three years out of most crew, you will probably find the pay scale will remain broadly as it is.

fruitbat

24th Jun 2010, 16:26

If you offer a 20 year old that kind of money to travel the world for a few years, party in HKG, sit on the beach in MRU or shop in NYC, plus the chance to use staff travel for their family.... do you really think they won't get enough applicants with the economy the way it is?! :rolleyes:

max_cont

24th Jun 2010, 16:29

SlideBustle

24th Jun 2010, 16:46

Fruitbat,

Of course they WILL get many crew! Like I said it will mostly be younger people from the minimum age (18) and twenties, as many of these people in these age groups don't have commitments, live at home and the oppurtunity to do a job that is still percieved as ''glamorous'' and see the world would be fab for many! Especially as many other customer service jobs are not very well paid anyway!

What we are saying though, is people will not be able to stay for longer than 3-4 years on this, and as they will be working to scheme they would be working harder, which would be tiring after 3-4 years, which for most they wouldn't mind if the salary was more. I appreciate this is what BA want, a higher turnover, but they have to be careful with training costs.

Wirbelsturm

24th Jun 2010, 16:58

Slidebustle,

The continual training costs are minimal when you start to look at them against constant crew payscale progression and pension rights.

Abbey Road

24th Jun 2010, 17:04

BASSA ain't happy .... and is still blaming everybody else! If they could have been bothered to actually negotiate, they could have shaped Mixed Fleet. And they continue to wonder why the company went ahead without them. :rolleyes:

So ........ what has all the strike stuff achieved? Anyone? It has hardened resolve to kick BASSA in to touch. Nothing else. :D

"MIXED FLEET"
Jun 24th, 2010 by admin

New Fleet is now “Mixed Fleet” and it’s happening...
Almost 18 months ago to the day, we were leaked BA’s Operation Columbus proposals.......... we immediately published them.
Yesterday those proposals finally became reality.
If you take a moment to read your ESS you will see exactly how excited, the oily Bill Francis is over its launch. Existing current crew will probably be slightly less overjoyed.
Every single fact that we have published about it, has now been proven to be true. Far from misleading people, we told the truth, its there in black and white for everybody to see.
Performance related pay without annual increments
No variable payments
£2.40 hourly rate
Reduced salary levels
External entry for Cabin Service Manager
No purser
No fixed roster
No recognised agreement
Working on the ground
Mixed flying
Developmental “working up” for no additional pay
To quote directly from the recruiting advert
“At start up our route network will be relatively small but as the fleet grows, we will be adding further destinations providing you with a greater variety of trips to choose from”
You may need to pause and reflect, what those routes will be and who’s work it will be. The answer, unfortunately, is yours.
In his introductory briefing to his management team Bill Francis emphasised the cost savings this “mixed fleet” will bring, not only for the reasons above but he also specifically emphasised the savings that will result from less rest both at base and downroute - one easy example being the ending of the double night.
Are you going to be forced onto it right now? Of course not. Over a period of time is the answer though nobody knows exactly and that is the concern. It is a fleet at your base, doing your work, at a far cheaper cost. You work it out.
What is not in any doubt is that your routes will go as they are transferred over, season by season.
This is why your union has been unable to reach agreement for so long. What union wants an agreement that essentially is the beginning of the end for all its members?
Your union has been trying to warn you how serious this situation is for 18 months, many of you were aware of that and joined the recent disputes, many people though simply did not believe it and joined in with the “keep the flag flying” hysteria.
Every action has a consequence, no matter how brave and strong some crew were, others simply were not and that lack of support has lead us to today.
The irony is that there is no big thank you or reward for breaking the strike, simply an invitation alongside everyone else to “apply” for mixed fleet.
Mixed fleet is here, nothing is going to change that now, but without proper safeguards, it awaits us in all its glory, sooner or later. Our focus must remain on achieving those safeguards, for without them, our future is decidedly uncertain.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 17:19

Your union has been trying to warn you how serious this situation is for 18 months, many of you were aware of that and joined the recent disputes, many people though simply did not believe it and joined in with the “keep the flag flying” hysteria.The situation is, I'd say, serious for those considering a move to Mixed Fleet. The terms and conditions of this new fleet are shocking for all; with the possible of the CSM.

Had Bassa thought more logically about things back in June of 2009, they could have been very much involved in working out the arrangements to make New Fleet a more attractive prospect both for existing crew and for new entrants.

New Fleet need not represent a grave threat to the terms and conditions of extra crew. If, at the end of this dispute, Bassa shows that it's more prepared than in the past to negotiate with the company I believe the company will stick to its promise to limit Mixed Fleet's growth.

I fear that Mixed Fleet is going to struggle to get the level of experienced crew it really needs to deliver a service people expect from British Airways.

I certainly don't imagine there will be many existing crew applying for positions on New Fleet, particularly considering the company's requirement essentially exclude almost all main crew from applying for the CSM role.

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 17:20

The MF cabin crew will have a starter salary of £11,000pa plus allowances plus a possible performance award. Annual earnings could average £18,000. So, who will apply? I think it's likely to be some existing cabin crew plus A3s from outside IFCE. The A3s will most likely be passenger service agents as many have been bursting for years to become CC and their earnings including shift pay will not, for some of them, be much different to £18,000. Furthermore, the PSAs are a good fit: they are already customer-facing, uniformed, have airside passes and work non-regular hours.

A few non-PSA VCC will apply, but most will not as they earn too much or are much more interested in their jobs or career or don't fancy the lifestyle.

LD12986

24th Jun 2010, 17:27

"I've always taken the view that if you're not at the table, you're likely to be on the menu."

Martin Broughton

midman

24th Jun 2010, 17:27

Mixed fleet is here, nothing is going to change that now, but without proper safeguards, it awaits us in all its glory, sooner or later. Our focus must remain on achieving those safeguards, for without them, our future is decidedly uncertain.

So safeguards are what are required to placate Bassa? IFCE have explained the safeguards that they propose, ie MTP etc, but that isn't enough of a 'guarantee' for them.

Could a pro Bassa poster please explain what form of words or actions they would like BA to use in order to achieve these safeguards? Surely that's the nub of the argument now.

WeLieInTheShadows

24th Jun 2010, 18:00

I can't see LGW staying the same once this fleet is up and running.:(

I think at the very least the writing is on the wall for the Purser position.

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 18:09

midman (http://www.pprune.org/members/86881-midman),

BASSA has always been hostile to New Fleet, offered no alternative, refused to negotiate and now finds it imposed by BA. More fool them.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 18:12

Sadly, CB, I have to agree. Mixed Fleet could well have been similar to LGW had negotiation taken place. But trying to protect the 'golden runways' of Heathrow has got in the way of doing anything positive for anyone else.

As someone currently enjoying the 'golden runways' benefits, I'd have rather accepted what was offered in 2009 or earlier this year and seen both parties in this dispute spend some time working out a decent deal for our future colleagues on MF.

LGW isn't at all unattractive - I'm on the list to transfer there. MF, however, seems to be.

Express1

24th Jun 2010, 18:13

Express 1, yes I am talking about the latest batch of volunteers only.

I get the impression that you are maybe a PSU Duty Manager or similar.

You say the trial was with union agreement. At least one union rep is telling PSU staff that BA is just going ahead with various trials. If the union agrees, all well and good, if they don’t, they carry on regardless. Not quite the same story.

Quote:
WW himself has said that he believes BA should be handled by it's own staff at its main base
Forgive me but like most bosses, what Willie says or promises is probably good for about a week at most. They tend to look you in the eye, categorically state that there are no plans for xyz etc. Then low and behold…a new plan for the future is discovered.

I must be getting cynical, I wonder why.

I am not a PSU duty manager or similar. Just someone who has a brain and has been able to make my own judgements about various events.

As for the union rep telling staff that BA is just going ahead with the trials, I haven't heard that one and have seen union reps observing the trials I have been involved with and actively seeking feedback so that they can use to properly judge.

Quite frankly, we do need to change and some of the changes are long overdue. There are areas where we could and should be more productive. Not all the changes I have thought were for the best and I have made my views known on these. Funny enough, some of these changes were proposed even before WW, in the lead up to T5.

I have had no reason not to believe what WW has said or indeed that of my direct management. Further from it, some of the things that our direct management have said are now being in the initial phase and I was initially unsure if we would get to this stage and yet we are getting there.

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 18:25

Eddy (http://www.pprune.org/members/79133-eddy) wrote: I certainly don't imagine there will be many existing crew applying for positions on New Fleet, particularly considering the company's requirement essentially exclude almost all main crew from applying for the CSM role.BA wants the CSMs to have experience in a people management or leadership role, either in the air or on the ground. That seems to me to be a perfectly fair requirement. As you say, most main crew will not be suitable for this role but those who wish to develop in this area will be able to apply for the Future Talent – Crew role or seek a Purser position in an existing fleet.

Furthermore, the CSM jobs are now being advertised externally. I think there will be many applicants.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 18:51

But to be honest, CB, what is a CSM? Isn't it effectively the same as a purser? Or atleast a purser working up?

And what's the difference between a purser and a main crew member? A training course! Bingo! So why not judge based on merit rather than experience whether one is suitable for the role?!

I mean that with absolute respect for my purser colleagues - and of course CSD colleagues - who all do an outstanding job.

Considering many - probably most - of the applicants for the main crew roles in MF will be new to flying, it makes sense to have an experienced flyer in the role of CSM. Someone used to the unsociable shift patterns, used to downroute arrangements with hotels etc, used to onboard service and used to the various aspects of CRM and SEP.

A lot of main crew with BA would love the chance to have gained experience as a purser on mainline but, of course, promotion opportunities have been a dream for most, rather than a reality.

Existing, loyal BA crew have been starved of promotion for years and are set to be starved even in the new fleet because of the requirements set by the company.

Many current CSDs and pursers start their careers as main crew, having come from uni or college or school. For many, the only experience they have of managing a team is on the job and in a training school.

So why won't BA train existing crew for this new role, just as they would a new Purser or CSD ?!

64K

24th Jun 2010, 19:52

Maybe the CSM requirements will change once the new fleet is actually up and running. Presumably, it would be beneficial to have people with some experience in terms of as SCCM or people management whilst the new fleet is being introduced?

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 20:00

I absolutely agree that current SCCMs would make great CSMs on the new fleet, but I cannot help but think the company will struggle to get enough current British Airways SCCMs to apply. We may find experienced British Airways crew, familiar with the SOPs of this business, being stepped over by SCCMs from other, very different airlines.

I guess it's a case of weighing up where the benefits lie :

The company can have existing BA crew who are experience enough to be Pursers (taking planes out in charge on shorthaul, and sometimes on longhaul) and are au fait with BA's SOPs

OR

The company can take on SCCMs from other airlines who may have LESS overall flying experience than BA's own main crew, or ground managers who have done some VCC flying, and send them out leading a crew in totally alien territory

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 20:10

Eddy, I don't know why BA is recruiting externally, but the very act of this recruitment could be a clue as to what BA is looking for. Maybe BA wants people who are not just like other Pursers who have been in the company for some years but people who will bring something different as they have experience outside BA.

Another clue could be in one of the required skills:
Proactive in supporting and delivering business decisions, cost savings and a strong understanding of business and market knowledge As Mixed Fleet must make a big contribution to BA's future profitability, it's important to have people who have business know how. I just have a feeling that anyone, which includes current BA main crew, who can demonstrate business awareness will be of interest to BA.

davidexba

24th Jun 2010, 20:27

oily Bill Francis

A disgrace isn't it?

I know Bill Francis very well. Worked directly for him in his previous role. A good bloke. Very straightforward and definitely not 'oily'.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 20:28

Agree again, CB, but as usual BA's advertisment wording makes the recruitment criteria sound very, very restrictive.

We've got pursers on Eurofleet who joined from uni, perhaps, and have been flying four years. They were in the right place at the right time, or just wanted to go for purser (as many others choose not to).

Meanwhile we've got main crew at Heathrow who are 45, have been flying for 20+ years but have chosen not to go for Purser.

Yet the latter cannot go for the CSM role. The former, of course, could.

But what's the difference between the two, other than a Purser course?!

It's the wording of the requirements that is the problem here. They're excluding many good, experienced crew purely because of a technicality.

A disgrace isn't it?

I know Bill Francis very well. Worked directly for him in his previous role. A good bloke. Very straightforward and definitely not 'oily'.And agree with you, too, David.

I've spoken to Bill a number of times and met him twice (albeit briefly each time). He is a thoroughly decent chap, very approachable and very honest. Bassa's need to refer to him as "oily", or any other less-than-pleasant term, merely shows immaturity and represents a poorly orchestrated attempt to undermine the man.

Wirbelsturm

24th Jun 2010, 20:32

You may need to pause and reflect, what those routes will be and who’s work it will be. The answer, unfortunately, is yours.

Oh, silly me, I thought BA owned the routes, the right to fly them, the aircraft and, through negotiation with sensible Unions, the methods to crew them.

Mind you, it is a BASSA publication.

(I especially like the attempt at punctuation in it.)

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 20:41

Eddy, it's not about a Purser's course, it's about the experience of managing people and performing leadership roles.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 20:48

I know mate... But if I were on shorthaul three years ago, I could have applied for (and maybe got) the role of Purser. A few weeks later I'd have been flying as an ICCM/SCCM. I might have had ZERO experience of team management.

So why couldn't I - if I even wanted to join Mixed Fleet as a CSM - basically go for the role of Purser (which happens to be called CSM) on this new fleet, just as I would have done on Eurofleet?

As it happens, I have people management skills in my previous role externally to BA, so this is largely hypothetical.

ETA : (I especially like the attempt at punctuation in it.)No disrespect to anyone, but this is standard of Bassa's publications. Duncan displayed superior punctuation, spelling and grammar skills in his daily updates, but it looks like whoever used to do the updates before Bedfont has taken over again.

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 20:55

Eddy, you can apply for a CSM job if you have:
experience as a Senior Cabin Crew Member (Cabin Service Director, Cabin Manager or Purser) with 12+ months full time or equivalent experience in a SCCM role in the last 5 years of which 3 months is in the last 3 years in BA
Or
36+ months full time or equivalent as current BA Cabin Crew in the last 6 years plus 12+ months experience in a people management or leadership role (internal or external to BA) within the last 6 years, which includes team, performance, and resource management.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 21:01

And I've been crew for 6.5 years, before which I ran a leisure travel division within a business travel agency in Aberdeen and had a team of staff (albeit a small one) beneath me. So half a year stands in my way of applying for CSM.

(or more accurately 18 months, because the 12 months needs to have happened within the last 6 years)

But again, I am happy where I am so this is largely hypothetical.

EDIT : re-reading what you've posted above, those requirements are EXTRMEELY restrictive. Basically, I suspect the only people likely to have a shot will be either existing SCCMs with BA or former managers from Atrium Court in Glasgow.

Most other ground managers from BA, either serving or re-deployed to be crew, will be lacking the 36+ months experience as crew. The Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen or Manchester ground staff, for example, who are now flying, may well have the management experience but are only up to about 24 months of flying experience.

LD12986

24th Jun 2010, 21:14

It does seem that Unite are only balloting LGW crew who took part in strike action:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/MESSAGE_FOR_ALL_LGW_STRIKERS.doc

MESSAGE FOR ALL LGW STRIKERS

If you are a Gatwick crew member from either the BASSA or Amicus sections of Unite, and you took part in the recent industrial action, losing your staff travel, but, you have NOT YET claimed strike pay or have only claimed within the last 7 days, please email: ** ASAP.

This is to ensure you are included on the list of members to be balloted over the coming weeks

617sqn

24th Jun 2010, 21:14

Basically, all the CSD's and pursers can apply but any main crew with more than 6 years service cannot.
Main crew won't be able to go for promotion on mixed fleet and won't be able to afford to transfer and will lose their part time contracts.
The only hope is to stay on current fleets,but for how long?

ottergirl

24th Jun 2010, 21:22

Eddy
This has been a main topic of conversation on standby today. The Eurofleet pursers that have been asked to apply for CM have realised that they are currently earning around 35K give or take and IFCE project that the new CM's will be earning about 32K. So its a 'no brainer' at present; even more so for longhaul pursers. Take a three grand pay drop to work harder or sit tight and watch what happens. As you rightly say, any main crew who have more than 6 years in BA are not eligible to apply. Add in the less than desirable launch destinations and the undoubted challenges of managing whole aircrafts full of new crew and I think New Fleet will be staffed from outside IFCE.

(Speaking personally, it's hard enough for one person to manage a 767 crewed by experienced crew without thinking about a 777 with no experience:eek:, how can you possibly know what is going on at the back?)

I can't see any old contract crew trading their current T&C's for Future Talent! There's definately no WIIFM.

Caribbean Boy

24th Jun 2010, 21:24

I don't think that people should regard the six years specified as being set in concrete. There is often a certain amount of leeway when suitable candidates are concerned. I'd recommend that everyone should apply if they want to be a CSM and has roughly the skills and experience required. Who dares wins.

Hotel Mode

24th Jun 2010, 21:26

MESSAGE FOR ALL LGW STRIKERS

If you are a Gatwick crew member from either the BASSA or Amicus sections of Unite, and you took part in the recent industrial action, losing your staff travel, but, you have NOT YET claimed strike pay or have only claimed within the last 7 days, please email: ** ASAP.

This is to ensure you are included on the list of members to be balloted over the coming weeks

Sounds like an open invitation for some non striking LGW crew to provide BA with their next injunction to me.

Betty girl

24th Jun 2010, 21:32

The CSM job may be attractive to LGW pursers. I am not sure what they earn but the job gives them scope to do training and selection as well as fly, but in reality not many LHR Pursers would want to transfer.

ottergirl

24th Jun 2010, 21:35

The MF cabin crew will have a starter salary of £11,000pa plus allowances plus a possible performance award. Annual earnings could average £18,000. So, who will apply? I think it's likely to be some existing cabin crew
Caribbean Boy, I think it's unlikely to be existing BA cabin crew or any that are currently in work with other carriers. It will obviously appeal if you are out of work and living either with parents or in cheap rented accomodation but it isn't a 'living wage' by London standards. A mortgage quote if you can persuade them to include your variable pay would be about 60K which is great if you want to live in a garage in Hounslow; without variable pay (and many Building societies have toughened up their rules on this) it'd be 40K which might just about cover a shed!

Of course you could always get a syndicate of 5 crew together and share a one-bedroom flat!:ok: Save on heating!

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 21:38

Cheers Otter. Glad to hear I'm not the only one with an issue about all of this.

ottergirl

24th Jun 2010, 21:43

Issue? Moi?

Not at all. I feel this is as likely to be as big a success as awarding the Eurofleet catering contract to a mail delivery company has been.:)

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 21:45

Sarcasm : dix point!

Timothy Claypole

24th Jun 2010, 21:48

It's interesting that bmi don't pay a 'living wage' in London either but their customer service is consistently equal or better to ours. And they were flying A319s with 3 crew long before we were.

Colonel White

24th Jun 2010, 21:58

Sounds like a very desperate attempt to make sure they don't make the same c*ck up that occurred with the first ballot. I still think that the situation is a potential minefield.

I don't understand how Unite can ballot LHR plus the LGW strikers only. The grievances only impact those who walked out on strike, so what is the logic in ballotting all of LHR ???? The folk who worked normally have nothing to gain from any negotiations on the grievances listed. To me the logical situation would be either to ballot al CC on the basis that the use of VCC, removal of ST and disciplinaries were 'an affront to the whole community':rolleyes: or to only ballot those who were directly impacted - i.e the people who went on strike or had been subjected to disciplinaries. The latter ballot would be more likely to get the degree of support needed to call for strike action, albeit it would be limited to those balloted. If Unite are right in saying that a large number of crew walked out - the figures touted suggest about a third of all crew may have taken strike action - then getting them to down tools would indicate a greater degree of solidarity.

Assuming that LHR is about 7000 crew, if there are 3000 strikers who have no reason not to vote for further action, you need an 85% or lower turnout to guarantee a majority for action, but you run the risk that the strike call will be ineffectual as over half your membership may not have supported the ballot. On top of that, some of those who opted for strike action may find the economics a bit hard to handle and turn up for work - if only 30% of crew walked out on a ballot which suggested that 60%+ supported strike action you can bet that some of the 3000 who have zero to lose in supporting the ballot may think twice about losing still more pay.

To me this ballot is sheer stupidity. Now if Unite were to ballot on the introduction of mixed fleet, they might gain more support, but they've let themselves be suckered yet again. They've focussed on some truly silly niggles and announced them as the basis for ballotting and allowed BA to then slide in MF. The sensible thing would have been to acknowledge that they had lost the current battle and gone back to talk about MF. If BA then imposed MF they could try ballotting, although since BA have stipulated that current staff can retain their Ts&Cs and don't have to move across, it might be a dodgy wicket, but one that could get more support from other groups. Unite bought the dummy and BA have scored a neat goal. Doesn't say a lot for Unite's business acumen or negotiating skills - glad they don't represent me.

ottergirl

24th Jun 2010, 22:03

It's interesting that bmi don't pay a 'living wage' in London either but their customer service is consistently equal or better to ours. And they were flying A319s with 3 crew long before we were
That may have been your experience Timothy Claypole but the flight I did with them was a shocker! Also, am I right in thinking that they stopped offering Business class in Europe some time ago?

The reason for not balloting LGW crew may be within the grievance. Isn't the wording around replacing striking crew with volunteers and presumably there was no need to do that at LGW.

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 22:08

The grievances only impact those who walked out on strike, so what is the logic in ballotting all of LHR ???? The folk who worked normally have nothing to gain from any negotiations on the grievances listed.If I were the Bassa leadership, I'd certainly hope that the majority of people who went to work had already resigned their membership of Bassa and so what you suggest wouldn't matter.

Sadly, many crew chose to defy union calls to strike but still wanted to enjoy the benefits and protection that union membership would offer :rolleyes:

From Tunbridge Wells

24th Jun 2010, 22:24

All the worries surrounding this new fleet sound just like dual fleet then mid-fleet fears.

Good fast-track to promotion and I would lay money on the more desirable routes being transferred over in the next year (and motivated crew sounds better than the die-hard militants).

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 22:28

But how long will motivated crew stay for on that money?!

Colonel White

24th Jun 2010, 22:32

Does sound low, but put it in context. The going rate for new joiners in IT is not dissimilar and they have to be grads with a 2.1 The problem is if you compare it to existing BA salaries it will seem poor, but look a bit wider at what the going rate for new joiners in similar customer facing roles is or what some of the other grad jobs pay and all of a sudden £18K is a pretty good whack.

I can see that there is zero attraction for a lot of existing crew at the moment as it doesn't make financial sense. The trouble is that BA have said from the outset that the crew cost base is unsustainable in the long term so will not really be interested intransferring staff across at their current rates. They will get there by attrition.

As far as the cost of living in London goes, there are shedloads of jobs that pay less than BA are proposing to pay cabin crew. Doesn't seem to stop folk from getting by though. As far as buying property goes, forget it. The price of a studio flat is now over £90K and a two bed place is over £100K. Lenders have tightened up and are likely to want a minimum of £25k a year income to advance the requisite dosh, and you'll need at least a 10% deposit.

From Tunbridge Wells

24th Jun 2010, 22:36

But how long will motivated crew stay for on that money?!

Flown out of Gatwick lately? Friendly, professional and very motivated crew there:ok:

Eddy

24th Jun 2010, 22:41

Yes, actually - a friend of mine has a place in BGI so I go out fairly regularly.

And yes, I agree - outstanding crew. And consistent in their, ummm, outstandingness.

But I think Mixed Fleet is going to be a fair bit different - not least because of the routes. Would you rather have a couple of days on a beach in Barbados or a couple of days in a luminous green room in the ***** Hilton?!

(Edited to replace city name with ***** : most will know where I mean, though)

MIDLGW

25th Jun 2010, 00:11

I've been Reading these threads from the start and I feel it's time to coment.
I'll try to put it all in bullet points, because I'd be here all night otherwise.

The union has messed up - majorly. No questions asked to the members about what they want (union is for the members, not other way round).

New fleet didn't have to happen so soon but we know why it's happening now.

New fleet contract isn't desirable for current crew unless you have a big wish to be CSM. (on VERY good authority: sickness days for new fleet before getting in trouble- 4 days. First lateness - stage 1, next lateness - out the door).

Nobody is being forced to new fleet.

There are no guarantees in life, least of all your contract in a fickle world that is the airline industry.

Motivation: it's your life, and it's up to you to motivate yourself. Personal pride should be a given, I think. You cannot depend on your peers motivating you. It's a matter of doing the best job you possibly can, because you want to be the best.

WW has kept every promise so far, so why doubt what he says? Having spoken to him a few times, I understand what he's trying to achieve.

Bullying has no place in BA (or anywhere else for that matter). Report bullying behavoiur, but understand that if someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they're a bully. Bullying in my book is constant belittling (sp?), exclusion, physical, violence and inappropriate/unprofessional behaviour.

We at LGW should have our own negotiating team/union/bargaining force. Only if you're based at LGW can you truly understand our issues.

Most important of all: Do your job at the very best of your ability. Gain as much knowledge as possible, be informed. Have a back-up plan. The customer might not always be right (we've seen those threads), but every single customer deserves respect, politeness and great service.

Let's prove to the doubters that we are fantastic. Let's get back on track and be outstanding. Most of all: let's be professional.

(sorry for long post, but I had to do it. I'm LGW crew and passionate about my job)

thefroboy

25th Jun 2010, 01:03

I am LGW crew and yes as a whole we pride ourselves in being a friendly bunch. This is largely due to the fact that it is a small base and we are lucky enough to fly with friends. This is the biggest reason why most of Gatwick flights are good, because people enjoy flying with their friends. As for consistency in adhereing to service standards, I feel there is alot of room for improvement. All of our trips are extremely sociable as we go WEST and fly into the sun, it's the champagne lifestyle on beer money. Our base is bursting with youth which promotes motivation and enthusiasm!! You have to remember alot of our older staff are on older contracts and therefore earn alot more than newer crew, there are 24 different crew contracts at Gatwick!!! If you are on an older contract happy days, if your are on the new 11k one its not so good. The most attractive thing about working as BA cabin crew at Gatwick isn't the money! It's the lifestyle and our friendly base. If they were to spilt Mixed Fleet crew into small groups similar to Easyjet's practice, they will retain more staff. If they end up employing over 2,000 staff, it will become very lonely and like Virgin, BA will suffer from a high labour turnover. Cabin Crew as BA is no longer a career, many crew accept this and either make it work for them or do it for 2-3 years and leave.

Like it or not this is the future, despite service quality being compromised, as we all know this world is all about money, be comfortable, look after yourself, family and friends and stay happy!

Tandemrotor

25th Jun 2010, 02:08

Am breaking my 'Golden Rule' here!

CB and Eddy seemed to have a very good exchange. Colonel White appeared to put salaries in context.

Truth is, BA have some of the very finest crew (CSDs, pursers, and main crew) in the business! They deserve every penny. Sadly from personal experience, BA also seem to have a fair proportion of 'freeloaders'! People who think BA owes them a living!

It does not! These folks are totally out of touch with reality. They are currently in the process of receiving a reality check. To an extent, I do sympathise.

I suspect the advertised requirements for CSMs, is an initial attempt to break away from the 'dead wood'! The 'Dead Man's Handle' that is BASSA.

I genuinely hope that the best of our 'legacy' crew, those that are in the job because they love it, (be they CSD, purser or main crew) are looked after by BA.

The rest can do what people always do, and simply vote with their feet. BA will continue with, or without you. Stop belly-aching. accept your world has changed, or find a new one! If the job is so awful you just can't face it, then you know what to do. (But I bet you don't!!) The best of our CC would be successful in whatever they turned their hand to. (Probably could earn more!) The 'Freeloaders' know BA is the goose that lays the golden egg!!

I wish all those who have stood up against B&H (we're talking BASSA here!) the very best. There are some in this company who would stand shoulder to shoulder with you should it become necessary.

Just not shoulder to shoulder with the 'Loonies', that's all!

spin_doctor

25th Jun 2010, 06:10

Meanwhile we've got main crew at Heathrow who are 45, have been flying for 20+ years but have chosen not to go for Purser.

...

Yet the latter cannot go for the CSM role.

I'm sure BA have no interest whatsoever in a 20+ year main crew member applying to be CSM on mixed fleet.

Stiffco

25th Jun 2010, 07:12

But how long will motivated crew stay for on that money?! Perhaps that is the whole point.
BA currently have many thousands of "career" cc who, under current T&Cs just cost too much.

So, you lose your motivation and move on, to be replaced by a younger, more motivated person.

It isn't rocket science. :ugh:

Slickster

25th Jun 2010, 07:13

Meanwhile we've got main crew at Heathrow who are 45, have been flying for 20+ years but have chosen not to go for Purser.

Why have they chosen not to go for purser? Is it because they can't be bothered (ie an easy life, always working where one wants), or because they don't feel up to the job? Neither situation is satisfactory.

There used to be a similar situation with pilots in BA, whereby it was not in senior first officers' interests to take a command - it was effectively a massive pay cut. Instead, they stayed on long haul, picking up all the plum "money trips", and in a lot of cases, not being very good pilots.

A system that encourages this sort of behaviour is wrong. I welcome this new development, much as I welcomed the change in pay scales with pilots, that encouraged them to take a command. What pilot, after all, does not want to be a captain one day? And what CC member does not want to be a purser one day? If they don't, then they're in the wrong job.

ChicoG

25th Jun 2010, 08:44

If you take a moment to read your ESS you will see exactly how excited, the oily Bill Francis is over its launch.

Notwithstanding the abysmal kindergarten grammar, Duncan Holley clearly hasn't got over the fact that BA quite legally fired him, has he?

Wirbelsturm

25th Jun 2010, 09:11

Can Duncan Holley, legally, remain an active member of BASSA as he is no longer employed by BA or does he now have a 'management' role within Unite?

If so, I see great things for his level of literacy considering Len McKlunky seems to have made it to the top! :ugh:

Flap62

25th Jun 2010, 09:50

Len McKlunky Wee Willy

Whichever side of the fence you're on - can we please refer to people by their names and refrain from the playground jibes. It does nothing to further one's argument.

Right Engine

25th Jun 2010, 10:39

Unite wish to ballot everyone bar non-strikinG LGW crew. This tactic is being done to force BA to apply for an injunction. By doing that, BA will extend the 'era of uncertainty' and forward bookings will remain low. BASSA will therefore succeed in their continued campaign of trying to force BA to return ST to striking BASSA members.

That is BASSA's 'cunning plan'.

But, I foresee BA legal seeing straight through that and would therefore expect for BA to allow the strike to start, then apply for an injunction and on top of that, they would force through their final 'play'. To sack any crew who fail to report on the basis of their obviously illegal ballot.

Game over Baldrick.

demomonkey

25th Jun 2010, 16:05

Anyone have any thoughts about the announcements made to Unite today?

VSOP Fables

25th Jun 2010, 16:20

This looks like the crucial bit as far as BASSA/Unite are concerned. Crucial as in 'cross or crux'. And what becomes of those who do not accept? Has the Union commented?

British Airways has made a new offer to Unite today in a fresh attempt to end the current dispute.

The offer includes two changes that are intended to address cabin crew concerns about their future earnings:

a new top-up payment is being offered to guarantee that existing crew will not lose out on route allowances when newly-recruited crew begin flying in the autumn;
a proposal to increase staffing levels on some flights, funded by a reduction in crew allowances, has been withdrawn.The offer also includes two years of guaranteed rises in basic salary from February 2011 in addition to annual increment pay increases.

The new top-up payment means all crew will receive a guaranteed minimum amount of variable pay, irrespective of the routes they fly.

Crew who are not members of Unite are being invited to accept the offer on an individual basis. Members of Unite who want to accept the offer are being urged to express their views to the union.

Bill Francis, British Airways’ head of cabin crew, said: “We have changed our offer in line with feedback we have received from crew and we genuinely believe that it can end this dispute – which is what the vast majority of crew and our customers want.”

The new proposal continues to provide existing crew with assurances about their future. These include:

A firm commitment that crew can keep their current pay and conditions
An assurance that promotions and part time contracts within their current fleet will be on existing terms and conditions
An assurance that Heathrow crew can transfer between Worldwide and Euro Fleet on current terms and conditions
A fair share of routes and access to new aircraft across all fleets
A commitment to look for opportunities for growth at Gatwick.

Eddy

25th Jun 2010, 16:36

ANOTHER great offer, but no better than anything we've had in the past.

I fear that, as BA continues to make these offers which are - if you look deeply enough - not as good as anything that's been offered in the past (but who can blame them for that?), the union will view these offers as victories. They'll claim that the new offers are being made because of increased union pressure and further threats of strike action.

But in reality, as briefly touched upon above, if none of the strikes had taken place and had we properly considered previous offers, we'd all be in a much better position than we will be if any of these new offers are accepted.

ADDITIONALLY, there appears to be (unless I've missed it) no mention of the return of staff travel. Nor any mention of the disciplinaries.

Will this good offer ALSO be turned down because BA is refusing to cave on these two issues?

VSOP Fables

25th Jun 2010, 16:38

On the face of it, it looks like a better option than Mixed Fleet for current main crew. Or for striking.

64K

25th Jun 2010, 16:39

Crew who are not members of Unite are being invited to accept the offer on an individual basis.

This is interesting... I wonder what this means exactly, how it will be implemented, etc.
(The views above are my own, not those of my employer)

SlideBustle

25th Jun 2010, 16:53

I have to say I agree with Eddy!

This CSM and Future Talent is a kick in the teeth to many Main Crew. Many have been waiting for over 10 years for the chance (if they are on Worldwide - Eurofleet Main Crew have had more oppurtunities!) and now like Ottergirl says - any MC who have done over 6 years are excluded from CSM. As even if they have management experience, they would probably have not had it in the last 6 years. Also many Main Crew probably have not had management experience - or a year at all.

Future Talent is not really an option for most Main Crew because it would mean a rather large salary drop. £11,000 - £12,000 plus £2.40 (was it £2.60 I heard somewhere??) for a year whilst on the programme - and there is no guarantee of CSM at the end - wouldn't be SO bad if you could get back to Eurofleet/Worldwide at the end of it! Is it an offer to try and get as many hopefuly Main Crew over?

BA have made a mistake with this. CSM is essentially a CSD/PSR role. OK so there will be some management on the ground and some training - but we recruit Line Trainers who haven't had any training experience. CSD/PSRs with no management experience. What do they get? A training course.

I know BA are saying there will be promotions on current fleets - but especially on Worldwide they have been limited for years and with less PSR positions, and a gradually shrinking fleet - how many promotion campaigns will there be.

I know this may seem trivial to lots of other workers. But many (most!) loyal BA crew are NOT dead wood like some suggest. I appreciate that is probably why you can't just transfer to MFH based on seniority like other fleets but to say the restrictive requirements for CSM are to sort out the dead wood will be offensive to the many BA crew who are passionate. Promotion is NOT a god given right, granted, but I do think for many of us dedicated and want more responsibility promotion is not an unreasonable thing to expect in the future!

Anyway this is my opinions.... I backed BA and do believe strikes are not going to/haven't achieved anything. But I don't believe this latest offer is very good either. And not just because of the above reasons! I am suspicious of our protections on Current Fleets now.

VSOP Fables

25th Jun 2010, 17:00

IMHO those who don't sign up to the new offer would be right to worry. The new offer seems to protect for a couple of years anyway. That's better than most of us can expect these days.

demomonkey

25th Jun 2010, 17:02

Why are the company recruiting 1250 suddenly? Do they assume that they'll lose that many existing employees who won't sign to the new contract?

If you take that 1250 and assume that we're staff on a x5 factor to allow for rest, days off, holiday, recurrent training, maternity leave, illness etc which is probably more like x6. And then assume there are 15 crew on each jumbo that only gives 16 jumbos that could be staffed by NF each day.

Are NF to be integrated into the mix or will there be effectively a glass partition and routes will be split between fleets?

When the company says that;

a proposal to increase staffing levels on some flights, funded by a reduction in crew allowances, has been withdrawn.Does this mean that the additional crew members will still be provided? I would assume that from a customer service perspective, you have to have them on certain routes or pax will vote with their bums?

VSOP Fables

25th Jun 2010, 17:11

WW did say he had plans for bringing the 74s back from the desert. ...

SlideBustle

25th Jun 2010, 17:20

VSOP Fables,

True there are never any guarantees in any job especially with the recession.

I also would be worried about any further strikes making future offers worse. Why couldn't we have just accepted last years offer witn NO NEW FLEET AT ALL!!!

Oh yes, I forgot BASSA didn't put it to all their members! DOH! ;)

Dick Whit

25th Jun 2010, 17:22

Could I point out that the new starter rate is not that different than the bottom of the new starter scales in cBA/reservations.
However, their money is for a 5 day 37.5 hour week and a year of around 220 days.
I know I'm not comparing apples by comparing ground staff and flying staff but IMHO the new fleet salary will be a pretty good deal to some.

DW

LD12986

25th Jun 2010, 17:34

VSOP Fables - Only one 747 is being brought back from the desert and the increase in capacity for W11 is quite modest.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 18:02

First. All New Fleet is going to be 777 and airbus at first.

Second. BA are planning to offer part-time to lots of current crew.

Third. Crew are retiring all the time. Temps are currently being used as we are actually under-crewed at the moment.

When new fleet starts it will get bigger slowly and then come the summer when the schedual expands it will grow to acomodate all 1250 crew.

I have heard at work that already the Copenhagen and Amsterdam night-stops have been removed from the August Eurofleet bid programme. I don't know but maybe they are being used as trainning flights. Anyway thats just rumour not fact.

VSOP Fables

25th Jun 2010, 18:04

Thanks LD and Betty girl for your clarifying info.

Caribbean Boy

25th Jun 2010, 18:09

demomonkey (http://www.pprune.org/members/189914-demomonkey) wrote: Why are the company recruiting 1250 suddenly? Do they assume that they'll lose that many existing employees who won't sign to the new contract?The 1,250 will come from the existing fleets, ICCs, BA ground staff and externals. Those who don't apply or fail in their applications for MF will stay on their existing contracts.

Are NF to be integrated into the mix or will there be effectively a glass partition and routes will be split between fleets?
MF will be quite separate from existing fleets. "Mixed" means trained on 777s and the A320 family.

MF routes will progressively be taken from existing routes.

When the company says that;
a proposal to increase staffing levels on some flights, funded by a reduction in crew allowances, has been withdrawn.Does this mean that the additional crew members will still be provided? I would assume that from a customer service perspective, you have to have them on certain routes or pax will vote with their bums?The proposed increased staffing level was a partial restoration of last November's reduced crewing levels by adding back 184 positions. So, BA will continue with current crewing.

64K

25th Jun 2010, 18:13

Bill Francis has been saying for a long time that everybody that has asked for part time will get it by March 2011. This will create a shortfall of crew which will be filled by new starters on Mixed Fleet contracts. It's win win for the company, really: staff get the work-life balance they desire, the company gets to reduce its cost base.

With regards to pay, it remains to see how take home pay will actually look. I believe the intention is for the Mixed Fleet crew to be 'more productive', which will be achieved through the mix of short and long haul routes. Furthermore, the pay is per duty hour, not per flying hour. Based on my calculations, that makes something like a JFK nightstop around £110 or so. I guess working to new agreements closer to Scheme will mean there is more flying = more duty hours = more pay?

Then there are the performance bonuses that make up part of the package - how much might they add?

(Views above are my own, not those of my employer)

SlideBustle

25th Jun 2010, 18:55

Having just seen the latest offer in full, I actually think it does offer us some protections (as current crew) which is probably the most important thing and the thing we should all be concerned about. (Before when I posted I hadn't seen it in full)

The ''top up payment'' is less than previous offers! But, I expected that to be honest, and why doesn't BASSA see that the more we strike the MTP will get less and less. WW is bringing this Mixed Fleet in and that is a fact - no striking will stop it and even BASSA have said that! So we just need to get our Top up payment and matrix of routes ASAP before the offers get less and less and we might as well all transfer on to Mixed Fleet as we will be better off!! :}

For me, it is just the promotions that bother me. But then, I take the previous point someone posted, that for the first ''core'' CSMs it is understandable they will want them to have experience as there is not a lot of time to select them, promote and then train them. I just personally think the FTC whilst a good scheme in effect for those of us Main Crew who don't meet the requirements - the incentive and the ''gamble'' is not that good. Then again hopefully there will be a future campaign for PSR/CSD on current fleets. Who knows!

Mind you, one thing is not clarified is: The future routes to be transferred to MFH. Will it be the same as previous offer or will there be more as there are more crew than anticipated (1250 rather than 184) or am I missing something? We need a matrix ASAP really of these routes!

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 18:58

BA have responded to the upset alot of long serving main crew had.
Originally you could only apply for CSM in New Fleet if you had people management experience within the last six years and so were excluding alot of main crew who have worked for BA for over 6 years.

They have just sent out an email saying that it does not matter when your people management skill was, as long as you have 12 months relevant experience at some time you can apply for the role.

I am a current Purser and the role would not interest me for family reasons. ie. don't want to do longhaul but I feel this is a really good move because their are alot of main crew who would like the opportunity to go for this job.

However having said that BA promotion application processes and interviews are very hard. It has in recent years been very hard to get Purser or CSD positions and I expect this CSM will be even harder to achieve.

I do wish anyone trying to get the position good luck.
Try and look up the companies current CSD deliverables to get an idea of what they will be looking for from an onboard manager. Good luck.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 19:08

SideBustle.
You are right the top up is less but it is a top up this time and not a replacement.
Before we all had to accept the average.
Now those that like doing the long duty days can still do them and earn more than the average but there is this top up as a safe guard to reassure us that if worse comes to worse we will definately get that payment as a minimum.
As a eurofleet crew member and most of our income after our basic is our meal allowances I do hope that he does transfer routes fairly but he has promissed to do this so I am happy with this agreement.

SlideBustle

25th Jun 2010, 19:14

Bettys girl,

AHHH! Thanks for clarifying about the top up!! Oooh sounds not so bad afterall then? So basically there is still an incentive to do longer days/trips etc etc and some people who want to do short little earlies. Hopefully this will mean our bidding system will more likely stay at it's fairly good satisfaction levels, rather than the worry that many had with MTP as there was no incentive to do longer days!

That alleviated many crews concerns then!

PC767

25th Jun 2010, 19:29

Mixed fleet CSMs.

On my current trip three of the crew have expressed an interest in applying for the CSM role only to find their loyalty to BA has been detrimental. They do not meet the criteria. A partner of one who is an ex temp who did not take up a contract this time with BA, but remained in the holding pool, and who has previous sccm experience with another airline can apply.

They aren't happy. So much for new opportunities.

We talked about them becoming future talent crew, but in all cases this involved a basic wage cut, (£3000+pa) with no guarentees. I cannot see anyone with more than a couple of years at BA, which means noone on long haul, taking up these opportunities.

As a junior purser my salary is less than the CSM role but Mr Francis is still willing to pay me increments so I'll catch up, and I'm just not interested in ground duties. For alot of pursers this salary will be the same or less for more work. No incentive there then. And as for CSDs? Is there any point.

Perhaps Tiramisu, who I believe from this site is a CSD, can explain why he/she would be intertested in moving to mixed fleet.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 19:31

You are right Sidebustle. I was worried that I would get lots of Moscows and Athens as there would have been no incentive for the crews that like these to continue with them.
Also on longhaul people were worried that they might be doing more long range but not getting rewarded for them.

So for me this is great news and I am very happy.

I just hope this stupid Union sees the light and accepts it.

No doubt they will try and take all the credit when really it is crew that have bothered to email Bill directly with their concerns that have actually prompted the change.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 19:40

PC767, They have just changed the requirement so that main crew can apply if they have had any people management skill at any time in the past not just the last six years. So it has opened up to many more main crew now.( check your emails)

This role is more like a CSD role and you have never before been able to go from main crew to CSD. You always have needed to be a Purser first. So being able to get this job from main crew directly is a really good move for some crew but as before you do need to be able to demonstrate people management skills.

I am sure that thoes that do not have people management skills would get promoted very quickly if they took the gamble and went for the Crew talent position as this fleet will expand rapidly at first. Those in at the start will I am sure do well.

HiFlyer14

25th Jun 2010, 19:56

At last, justice prevails and those of us who have left the Union will be able to accept this offer. :ok:

It also begs the question, does this now open the doors for the Professional Cabin Crew Council? We have been campaigning all along for a different, more professional way of conducting business. This could be it. We have been campaigning for people to have a voice over their own futures. This provides it. BA have now set a precedent in giving individuals a choice. Could this be a way forward to instill a new life and new motivation into what has become a somewhat unmotivated workforce, brought about largely due to the BASSA propoganda? If so, it certainly works for me.:cool:

ANOTHER great offer, but no better than anything we've had in the past.

Actually, Ed it is:

Pay rises for 2 years (previously a pay freeze).
Assurance of transfers between WW and EF (not previously incl.)
The minimum payment guarantee to alleviate fears re the MTP.
Access to new aircraft across all fleets (not previously incl.)

It does not have shares/bonus/free ticket but with the pay rise and the minimum payment guarantee, that would definitely make it comparable to the October offer.

It seems very fair and reasonable to me. All we need now is for England to beat Germany, a barbecue summer and the PCCC to get official recognition. Well, surely one out of three should be achievable?.:p

I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

SlideBustle

25th Jun 2010, 19:58

Well I don't mind doing my fair share of Athens and Moscows! (Don't tell Carmen though - I said fair SHARE!!;)) I like a mix of trips to be honest - trips and there and backs but obviously longer or good paying there and backs. So there is an incentive still. That is good. Otherwise there was a risk of our bidding satisfaction to be redundant!

With regards to CSM - I can understand why they need the first ones especially to have management skills in addition to flying experience. As it is more management than SCCM currently, I just do think it's a shame that Main Crew can go on Future Talent - which is a good scheme and they may very well get CSM but, they will have to live on a rather big pay cut for at least a year (longer depending on when the next campaign for CSMs is) What happens if they don't need CSMs - can they come back to EF/WW? If these Main Crew could go over on an enhanced package as FTC then more may take it up!

Anyway this whole CSM/FTC thing is proving to be very contraversial! It is in it's start up - maybe the requirements will change.

64K

25th Jun 2010, 20:01

Does anybody have a copy of the newest proposal that they would like to share here?

Caribbean Boy

25th Jun 2010, 20:11

Mixed Fleet Customer Service Manager

Ref UKLHR980 Region UK - Heathrow Location London - Heathrow Category

Job Description

Closing Date: 18th July
Customer Service Manager, Band 3
Salary: £25,000

This opportunity is open externally to Senior Cabin Crew Members (SCCMs) (past & present) who have 24 months full time or equivalent flying experience (with 12+ months on Longhaul) within the last 5 years of which 3 months should be in the last 3 years with BA or another airline.

A SCCM is responsible for the delivery of cabin service standards and ensuring safety standards are adhered to in a single cabin or the entire aircraft. A SCCM is responsible for the performance of other crew. Longhaul experience can be defined as sectors longer than 6 hours, intercontinental routes and operating on the following aircraft types: A330, A340, A380, 757, 767, 777, 747 or equivalent aircraft types.

Requirements

Job Purpose
To lead, manage and coach a team of Cabin Crew including Future Talent - Crew to ensure consistent delivery of world-class customer service
To work flexibly both in the air and on the ground to lead and support BA initiatives and training
To act as a BA Ambassador to crew, colleagues and customers and to be a role model for your team at all times
To meet customer service, people and operational targets that achieve business objectives, acting in compliance with all aspects of safety and quality and British Airways policiesJob Dimensions/Measures
Management of Direct Report Cabin Crew including Future Talent - Crew
Responsible for Onboard Customer Interface
Deliver exceptional Customer Service and accountable for Operational Performance
Compliance with British Airways Safety and Security standards
Proactive and Continuous Commercial Awareness to include the distribution and application of business related informationResponsibilities

Principal Accountabilities
Ensure operational safety, security and health and safety responsibilities are performed to the highest standard and are 100% compliant with EU-Ops, BA requirements and all other relevant legislation, including any relevant documentation.
Lead, manage, inspire and motivate a team of cabin crew to deliver a consistent in-flight customer service experience, productivity, cost performance and is accountable for onboard service recovery and any associated follow up.
Build and own relationships with your team, working flexibly both in the air and on the ground, supporting and/or leading initiatives such as training, engagement, recruitment and Future Talent - Crew Development.
Manages all aspects of crew performance including pay and reward for team.
Able to identify talent and high performing crew.
Recognise success and facilitate development opportunities.
Ensure highest standards of punctuality and performance are achieved personally and by your crew, both your direct reports and team on the day.
Proactive in mentoring and coaching individuals, colleagues, crew including Future Talent - Crew on the CSMs for Tomorrow Programme providing support both on and off the aircraft.
Ability to confidently deliver training programmes in order to support the customer proposition.
Accountable for delivery of objectives set by the business and a personal development plan in line with the corporate performance management framework, seeking to improve through continuous feedback.
Through continuous and effective engagement, ensure crew understanding of current business and commercial issues which may impact the customer and the cabin crew department (Inflight Customer Experience). Own and build interfaces with wider business to source and share knowledge and feedback.
Proactively explore opportunities to enhance/increase BA business through engagement with service partners and internal departments. Proactively seek opportunities to work cross-departmentally and with other areas of the business.
To build effective working relationships around BA and with key service partners, offering to support ground colleagues during disruption, passing valuable crew/customer feedback to working groups around the business.
Contribute to meeting team/departmental financial and productivity targets.
Ensures compliance with all corporate policies and Inflight Customer Experience processes, procedures and relevant legislation, including Dignity at Work.The Individual

Skills (Practised capability/behaviour)

Thinks Safety and Customer
Performance Management
Proven leadership skills with the ability to motivate and inspire a team
Strong decision-making skills and emotionally resilient at all times
Passionate about customer service and people. Confident in dealing with premium customers.
Able to build relationships with colleagues, service partners and customers
Excellent written and spoken communication skills and able to communicate and role model BA’s vision and objectives to the whole team
Maintains compliance at all times with SEP/Recency
Able to coach and mentor. Able to deliver training programmes (desirable)
Champions Diversity and Inclusion
Proactive in supporting and delivering business decisions, cost savings and a strong understanding of business and market knowledgeEssential Qualifications (Academic/vocational)
To be the legal minimum required age at the time of application
To be the required height, with weight in proportion must include the minimum reach requirement
English and Maths ability to GCSE level or equivalent level
Previous customer service experience
A valid EEA passport allowing unrestricted worldwide travel and the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK
Prepared to undergo a Criminal Record Check for all countries of residence for continuous period of 6 months or more in the previous five years
Prepared to conform to all British Airways uniform standards, with no visible tattoos or body piercingsExperience (On the job)
Experience of working in a customer service environment, and managing a team within a high profile customer service/hospitality environmentExpertise (Specialist knowledge)
Knowledge of Scheme
Knowledge of safety and security procedures, service style and standards needed to ensure delivery of world-class customer service
Has an understanding of and embraces cultural differences and diversity
Must have a good commercial understanding of the Company and its future strategy, as well as the ability to communicate business information and issues to the crew communityTo apply you will need to successfully complete a series of questions which may take approximately 40 minutes. After this you will be able to save your application. The next stage will consist of the following questions:

1) Please describe why you are applying for this role and what attracts you to Mixed Fleet? (Max 250 words)

2) What do you consider to be your 2 key strengths and how will these benefit Mixed Fleet in its start up? Please illustrate, using examples, when you have demonstrated your 2 key strengths (Max 250 words)

3) Briefly describe your leadership style and illustrate it using an example(s) of when you have demonstrated this to the benefit of both customers and the business. Please be explicit about the situation, your role and the outcome (Max 250 words)

Please prepare your responses in advance. You will also be asked to provide personal and contact information.

We do have assessment slots prepared. Please submit your application as soon as possible as we anticipate high demand.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 20:24

Dear colleague,

We have today made a new offer to Unite that we genuinely believe can end the dispute between us.

The previous strike action by Unite did not ground our airline but it did cause massive uncertainty for our customers and damage to our reputation across the globe.

It has also been a costly and anxious time for many of you.

With the prospect of more strike action during the summer, it is time for us to come together for our customers and to recapture the pride and excellence that are the foundations of IFCE.

THE NEW OFFER
This new proposal delivers the savings we need in IFCE without compromising on the assurances we have offered to you or the service we offer to our customers.

I know you care deeply about your role in British Airways and your part in making our company an iconic British brand and an airline that customers love to fly.

The new proposal continues to offer you assurances about your future at British Airways, your pay, your conditions, your lifestyle and your career choices. These include:

- No-one will be forced to join Mixed Fleet
- Guaranteed pay rises for two years on top of annual increment pay increases
- A firm commitment that you can keep your current pay and conditions
- An assurance that promotions and part time contracts within your current fleet will be on existing terms and conditions
- An assurance that Heathrow crew can transfer between Worldwide and Euro Fleet on current terms and conditions
- A fair share of routes and access to new aircraft across all fleets
- A commitment to look for opportunities for growth at Gatwick
- A guarantee to protect your variable earnings at Heathrow

WHAT'S NEW FOR YOU
You keep your allowances. In a previous proposal, we had agreed to a request from Unite to put some crew back on board, funded by some changes to your allowances. We have been listening to feedback on this, especially from our Gatwick crew who would have been losing money to fund more Heathrow crew. We’ve also listened to our customers who tell us that the new crew complements are working well. So, we have decided not to make this change: we will not put 184 Heathrow crew back on board and you will not lose any allowances.

You can guarantee your variable pay. There was a mixed reaction to our offer of a fixed monthly travel payment designed to allay your fears about the introduction of Mixed Fleet. To help move things forward we are now proposing a simple top up scheme to give you the peace of mind you have asked for.

From November, when Mixed Fleet begins, we will guarantee a minimum payment for variable earnings for every member of Heathrow cabin crew. If you are Heathrow crew, you will be paid at least the average amount of variable pay earned by your grade and fleet during 2009-10, no matter where you fly, how many standby duties you have, and whether or not your roster has been disrupted. If you earn more than the average, that is yours to keep. If you earn less than the average, we will make up the difference each year.

YOUR FUTURE IN YOUR HANDS
You will know that Unite has announced a ballot for further strike action.

I want to make sure that the union’s actions do not threaten the offer and the assurances we have made, and I believe many of you, especially those of you who are not members of Unite, want that too.

With that in mind, I am going to do two things:

If you are NOT a member of Unite, I am making this offer and the assurances available to you directly. I will be writing to everyone at home next week and if you were not a union member on Friday June 25 you can sign to accept it.

There are parts of the offer that we need Unite to agree collectively, such as a new disruption agreement, opportunities at Gatwick, and changes to some of our corporate policies so these are not included in the offer I will send you. But if Unite agree, you will be entitled to these elements of the offer also.

If you ARE a union member, I have made the same offer to your trade union to accept collectively on your behalf. If you would like them to accept it, please speak with your union representative before the next ballot opens.

You can see the collective offer to Unite (https://essmail.baplc.com/SRedirect/planetba.baplc.com/general/aptrix/aptcsops.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/Revised+offer+collective/$FILE/230610+Revised+Offer+Collective.doc) and the individual offer for non-union members (https://essmail.baplc.com/SRedirect/planetba.baplc.com/general/aptrix/aptcsops.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/Individual+offer/$FILE/Individual+offer+%28non+union+members%29+INTRANET+VERSION.do c) on the IFCE intranet site.

WHAT HAPPENS NOW
I hope you will see that we’re offering Unite a chance to put this dispute behind us and end the uncertainty for our customers, and that we’re keeping our promises to you.

If you have any questions about what it means for you, please speak with your crew team manager who will be happy to answer any queries you may have.

Thank you.

Bill Francis

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 20:29

A revised formal offer to Unite

This position is a formal offer made by British Airways in a genuine attempt to resolve the dispute in the best interests of our customers and our cabin crew.

We all agree that the airline needs to make permanent structural change to its cost base to ensure its long-term survival. Both parties acknowledge that the company will only be able to afford this position if there is a stable industrial environment, without any further revenue loss or reputational damage as a result of industrial unrest.

In doing so, the airline continues to recognise the professionalism and skill of its cabin crew.

Pay

Increments

Incremental pay rises will continue to be applied.

Basic Pay

The company has offered a two year pay deal, effective from 1/2/2011 as follows:

Year one 2011/12 the company will increase base pay based on December 2010 RPI and capped at 2.9%

Year two 2012/13 the company will increase base pay based on December 2011 RPI and capped at 3%
The next pay review will be effective from February 2013

The new fleet
The mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights will begin flying on 1 November 2010. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will notdiscuss the terms and conditions of current crew.

To continue to demonstrate our commitment to our current crew and to address the concerns of introducing the new fleet, we are happy to continue to offer the following assurances.

Assurances for current crew

· Terms and conditions for current crew – A fundamental principle of this offer is that crew will have a firm commitment from British Airways in respect to their terms of employment. Current crew are assured that their existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future, unless amended through negotiation.

· Part-time – The company will continue to honour commitments to make part-time offers to all crew on existing lists by March 2011. The offer will be on existing fleets, terms and conditions. Future opportunities will continue to be available.

· Access to route network – It is the company’s intention to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes to all fleets, based on commercial need, which will be discussed with Unite.

· Access to aircraft type – It is the company’s intention to deploy new aircraft based on commercial need across existing and new fleets. New aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the company’s fleets. Existing crew terms, conditions and fleet agreements will apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets. As new aircraft are introduced across all of the company’s fleets, crew will be trained in order to receive the necessary licenses as required by regulation.

· Career structure and opportunities for current crew – The career structure for current crew within current fleets will continue on the basis of existing practice, unless amended through negotiation. The company confirm that where there are opportunities available, existing crew will be promoted on existing terms and conditions on current fleets.

· Honouring current and future agreements – Both parties acknowledge the importance of honouring agreements and are committed to working with current arrangements.

· Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions – As with the current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However, the company has committed to continue with the current practice of transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and conditions.

· Variable pay top up - To provide increased assurance in relation to security of earnings, the company will introduce a variable pay top up. For those Heathrow crew whose annual variable pay falls below the average earnings for their grade and fleet in 2009/10, the company will pay a top up lump sum every year after the launch of the new fleet. The amount to be topped up will be the difference between the variable earnings achieved by the crew member and the average amount for the grade and fleet, if there is a shortfall.

The average variable pay for grade and fleet will include variable pay elements listed in appendix I. Adjustments will be made for non flying time, including unpaid leave, sickness, line trainer duties and TU duties and activities.

The payment will be pro-rated for part-time crew.

The payment will only be made to those crew who do not participate in industrial action.

All current crew will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if they choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions.

Opportunities for Gatwick crew
It is accepted that restrictions within the Gatwick Fleet memorandum of agreement limit the long haul route network. It is agreed that discussions will be held with a view to removing these restrictions to provide the best opportunities for growth in the long haul network at Gatwick, for the benefit of the business and our people.

Disruption Agreement

In order to minimise the impact of disruption to our customers and our crew, the following points will remain, or be incorporated into the Disruption Agreement

The definition of disruption remains unchanged
The double night will be removed for Worldwide diverted inbound services to anywhere in the UK and Europe, and a minimum of 15 hours off-duty will be achieved if the aircraft is unable to continue to its original destination
When disruption takes place the IFCE management team will advise duty representatives and crew colleagues when and how the disruption agreement has been applied. A review will take place of any disruption at the next joint meeting
Working together

The parties are committed to beginning the process of restoring and improving relationships at all levels. With this in mind, it is important that there is no victimisation arising from the dispute and both parties will work to ensure that any issues are settled in a mature and professional way. Where there are disciplinary or grievance cases, the intention is that these will be resolved quickly. Where behaviour is found to be serious, any resulting action will be measured and proportionate.

Future IR framework
It is acknowledged that the existing arrangements for industrial relations for cabin crew need to be reviewed and made fit for purpose, for both the company and the union in the 21st century.

The union will re-engage with the existing facilities agreement. Negotiations will take place between the company and the union nationally, with a view to reaching a mutually agreeable framework within 8 weeks of completing this agreement. The union have noted the company’s intent as outlined in the covering letter of 6 April 2010 from Willie Walsh.

The company proposes the introduction of a broader business consultative approach across British Airways, to engage our representatives and our managers in a wider debate about our business performance and needs of our customers. An example of items for discussion at the forum is the allocation of routes. Prior to the start of each season the company will discuss the allocation of routes with Unite.

Both parties are firmly committed to the effective application of company procedures, which are currently the subject of negotiations in the Employment Policy Committee and BA Forum.

Policy
Changes to corporate policies that apply to colleagues across the company and covered at the BA Forum and EPC have been subject to discussion. It is the intention to conclude these discussions within one month of completing this offer.

Summary

This revised formal offer maintains the contractual rights of cabin crew at their current level. The offer does not reduce or extend them from where they are today.

Both parties recognise the assistance the TUC has given in securing this agreement. The application of this agreement will be reviewed annually with the TUC, at twelve, twenty-four and thirty-six months from the date the agreement is signed.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 20:33

Appendix I – Variable pay top up

The objective of the crew top up scheme is to provide greater security of variable earnings for current crew in Heathrow Worldwide and Heathrow Eurofleet. It is designed to mitigate the concerns over the pace and mix of work transfer to the new ‘Mixed Fleet’. All existing variable pay will continue to be paid as now e.g. all box payments, all back to backs, destination payments, excess time premiums, short turnaround payments etc.

The crew variable top up scheme means that everyone at Heathrow will be paid at least the average amount of variable pay that was earned by their grade and fleet during the 2009-2010 schedule, regardless of their roster. If crew were to earn less than this, the difference will be topped up to the amounts shown below on an annual basis.

The minimum amount of variable pay shown below would be increased in line with any base pay uplift that is applied.

The minimum variable pay full time crew would receive per annum (effective from 1St November 2010)

FLEET
Worldwide
Worldwide
Worldwide
GRADE
CSD
Purser
Main crew
ANNUAL EQUIVALENT (£)
7,917
7,575
6,616
Eurofleet
Eurofleet
Eurofleet
CSD
Purser
Main crew
1,894
1,894
1,737

Part time crew will receive a pro-rata amount of the above sums.

Allowances included within the minimum variable pay

Worldwide
Eurofleet

Long Range Premium (LRP) /Box Payment
Back to Back (B2B)
Destination Payment (DES)
Excess Time Premium (ETP)
Long Range Diversion Payment (DIV)
Long Day Payments (LDP)
Excess Time Premium (ETP)
Base Early Report Payment (BER)
Block Payment (BLK)
Short Turnaround Payment (CAT)

The following categories of allowance will also continue to be paid in the same way as they are today but do not form part of the crew top up scheme

Meal Allowances
Nightly Incidental Allowance (NIA)
Line Trainer Payments
Rest Day Working
Exception payments from WW Disruption Agreement (One Down and Zone Closure)
Daily Overseas Allowance (DOA)
Time Away Allowance (TAA)
Willing to Work

Appendix I – Variable pay top up

Deductions from the minimum variable pay

As now variable pay flying allowances will not be paid when you carry out non flying duties. A daily amount (1/365 of the full time amount shown) will be deducted from the annual minimum variable pay for each non flying day from the following list.

Sickness
Trade Union Activities and duties
Line Trainer Duties (*)
Unpaid Leave
Grounded Maternity (**)

(*) Current Line Trainer payments will continue to apply
(**) Current Grounded maternity Allowance payments will continue to be made

Signatories to the offer

Tony Woodley
Joint General Secretary, Unite
Derek Simpson
Joint General Secretary, Unite
Tony McCarthy
Director P&OE, British Airways

Date:

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 20:35

The offer to us is the same as above one to the union minus the barganing bit.

Had to get my 11 year old son to post that for you as I haven't a clue how to do it.

ottergirl

25th Jun 2010, 21:22

Well, first reading looks okay to me; where do I sign?:ok:

ranger07

25th Jun 2010, 21:39

Anyone know of the thoughts regarding the offer on the BASSA forum, positive, negative, indifferent?

617sqn

25th Jun 2010, 21:44

Negative!!

Eddy

25th Jun 2010, 21:48

Why is it negative? Simple....

It's on BA headed paper (effectively).

BA could offer these people a blank cheque and they'd scoff at it.

617sqn

25th Jun 2010, 21:50

Negative as no mention of staff travel or reinstatement of sacked staff.

Satan

25th Jun 2010, 21:51

Let me tell you the response from the BASSA forum verbatim:

Several posters, on various threads, all with the same song, to the same tune. To wit:

You can stick your new proposals up your a*rse
You can stick your new proposals up your a*rse
You can stick your new proposals
You can stick your new proposals
You can stick your new proposals up your a*rse

That is the level of debate of this on BASSA's own forum. The fact the membership who contribute seem oblivious to this is neither here-nor-there: this is a union run, and union moderated website. Therefore, one would expect the encouragment of genuine debate, genuine questioning.

Unfortunately, what you see above is exactly what the BASSA union leadership permits on its own website. I have seen not one single thread with pertinent debate, but hundreds either high-fiving the same views, or feeding like a pack of wolves on one who speaks outside the group-think.

Unite, and BASSA are responsible for that travesty. Unfortunately, the members who contribute are as culpable.

Satan

Eddy

25th Jun 2010, 21:55

Actually, Ed it is:

Pay rises for 2 years (previously a pay freeze).
Assurance of transfers between WW and EF (not previously incl.)
The minimum payment guarantee to alleviate fears re the MTP.
Access to new aircraft across all fleets (not previously incl.)
I guess it depends how you interpret it, hun.

To me, there were things in previous offers that I'd rather have in place of some of the above because, call me naive, I believe we'd have enjoyed them whether they were included in previous agreements or otherwise.

Minimum payment guarantees, for example, will do little to change what we'd enjoy without the guarantee, I'm confident. It's all still going to be averaged out so some will gain, some will lose. Those who lose out will moan, those who gain with be thrilled.

So we've effectively traded in a real, genuine perk : additional free tickets, in favour of something that isn't really a perk at all, but that looks good on paper.

617sqn

25th Jun 2010, 21:57

Well ,we were too polite to copy and paste that!!
As your username is Satan you are allowed to.

ranger07

25th Jun 2010, 21:59

Such puerile postings prove that there's no reasoning with these individuals, lets hope it's a case of the majority moving on without them.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 22:02

I just can't tell you how shocked I am at what you have just said is going on on that forum.

I think it is a fair offer. I am happy to sign it and am now wanting them to strike so he can hopefully sack them.

I know that any right minded person would accept it and that includes many that striked. I am sure that once all the bad eggs have gone the rest would probably eventually get staff travel back sometime down the line.

I do hope the moderate crew email BASSA and say they want to accept it.

I just want all this over with and get back to doing the job I love without BASSA ruining it anymore.

Colonel White

25th Jun 2010, 22:05

I reckon that BASSA have as much chance of getting the disciplinaries dropped as I have of becoming the pope. ST ? There is the vaguest chance that if they keep their noses clean that strikers might get it back in 3 months time but with loss of seniority. This is assumng that BASSA don't push for strike action.

I thought that Unite were looking for a deal and had accused BA management of not being prepared to negotiate. I don't call a flat refusal negotiating. Interesting that BF is putting this out to all crew and suggesting that the Unite members let the union leadership know their views. Could kneecap the ballot rather neatly if there are more than 50% who would accept it. If Unite don't put the offer to aballot it could well lead to mass resignations from the union, both CC89 and BASSA.

Betty girl

25th Jun 2010, 22:08

Eddy.
I don't think you understand the new offer.
The new guarantee is that, a guarantee that if you earn less it will be topped up. However they are no longer going to give us the average. We will continue to trigger payments the way we do now. He is just making this guarantee so that people feel safe in accepting the offer because BASSA have been scaring people that work will dry up.

Eddy

25th Jun 2010, 22:41

From November, when Mixed Fleet begins, we will guarantee a minimum payment for variable earnings for every member of Heathrow cabin crew. If you are Heathrow crew, you will be paid at least the average amount of variable pay earned by your grade and fleet during 2009-10, no matter where you fly, how many standby duties you have, and whether or not your roster has been disrupted. If you earn more than the average, that is yours to keep. If you earn less than the average, we will make up the difference each year.
Hiya Betty,

I think we're reading this very differently...... :uhoh:

With the exception of the fact that "average amount of variable pay earned by your grade and fleet" seems to suggest that meal allowances will now be included, this seems exactle the same as the MTP to me.

Shah100

25th Jun 2010, 22:46

Betty Girl.

I'm curious, you say its a fair offer. Whys that?

I'v just seen the offer, its basically a 2 year deal?
What happens after 2 years?
Are you not concerned, with the introduction of mixed fleet, your basic as well as other parts of your contract will decrease over time?

I'm ground staff, based in T5.
I initually couldn't understand why cabin crew were striking during these difficult times. I backed B.A during the strikes but after speaking to loads of cabin crew, started to understand what was going through there mind.
Started to see there struggle for what they felt was an injustice towards them.

I am surprised that you being cabin crew, could speak so disparagingly towards them, when you say "sack them all".

I hope these issues with the cabin crew are resolved, but I know after doing my research on Willie Walsh and his management, that they have other plans up there sleeves for my department as well as others.
To him, outsourcing is always the best route for ground staff.

Colonel White

25th Jun 2010, 22:50

'So we've effectively traded in a real, genuine perk : additional free tickets, in favour of something that isn't really a perk at all, but that looks good on paper.'

Nope, BASSA have stitched you by rejecting the offer with the extra free tickets without even giving you the option to vote on it. I think BF is bending over backwards to let crew know what is on offer this time. I'll wager that the non-union folk grab this one like a shot, 'cos they know that anything that comes after it won't be as good. That just leaves the union members to make up their minds and inform their leaders of their views. Come on, be reasonable. As far as BA management are concerned, they have put forward at least three proposals to Unite. None of these have been accepted and cabin crew as a group have cost the company mega bucks by the IA. Is it fair to penalise the folk who worked during the strike by reducing the offer ? Well, sadly that's what happens when you have collective bargaining.Unions can be a power for good when the cause they are backing is just, They can also be a huge disservice when they fail to recognise that things are going backwards and refuse to undertake real open discussion and negotiation. I've stated it elsewhere, I think that Unite and in particular BASSA have seriously harmed the role of cabin crew. BA cabin crew used to have a reasonable reputation. Maybe not the most glamorous airline cabin crew (sorry !) but respected for a professional approach, cool elegance and a consistent level of service - a very British approach. The strike and the images of strikers has really tarnished that. The involvement of the SWP in this dispute has led may to think of crew as somewhere to the left of Trotsky. This offer seems to me to be the last chance that BA are extending to crew. There will not be a better deal in a week, a fortnight, a month or even in three months' time. I'm not certain, but I beleive that no other part of the airline has had a pay rise in the past year and certainly none have been guaranteed one for the next two years.

Colonel White

25th Jun 2010, 23:14

I hope these issues with the cabin crew are resolved, but I know after doing my research on Willie Walsh and his management, that they have other plans up there sleeves for my department as well as others.
To him, outsourcing is always the best route for ground staff. So you disregard the frequent statements made by WW that the airline should be serviced by its own ground crew at its main base(s) ?

Ground crew were amazingly overstaffed for years. and the operation was pretty shambolic. Early trap 90 minutes or more before end of shift, overtime payments made like confetti, walking times between jobs that were patently ridiculous. I spent over eight years working on ground handling's roster systems and then on the allocation systems. Part of my job was to document the then current business practices. The degree of waste was horrific. The attitude of some staff to the introduction of technology ranged from indifference to downright hostile. I can cite instances when equipment has been damaged beyond repair by ground crews simply becaus it might highlight some inefficiences in ways of working. T5 did a huge amount to correct things, but even then there were compromises.

Whilst most large companies like to be known as paying towards the high end of the market rate for any given role, when cash is in short supply economies need to be made. Would you pay £30 for a haircut if you could get an equally good trim done by someone else for only £20 ? If ground crew price themselves out of the market, then it makes good business sense to get the likes of Swissport to tender for the work

Caribbean Boy

25th Jun 2010, 23:30

Eddy, read Appendix I. Meal allowances are not included in the variable top up pay and never were in the MTP.

It's quite simple: the variable top up pay is an enhanced version of the MTP as it guarantees that nobody loses out. Note: you only get this if you don't strike.

HiFlyer14

25th Jun 2010, 23:33

Eddy,

Please STOP! This is exactly why things get blown out of proportion within our community. Tomorrow it will be all around the globe :uhoh: that this offer now includes meal allowances. Aaaaarggghhhh!

Betty Girl has printed the entire offer two pages ago - read it and then read it again, particularly this bit:

The following categories of allowance will also continue to be paid in the same way as they are today but do not form part of the crew top up scheme

Meal Allowances
Nightly Incidental Allowance (NIA)
Line Trainer Payments
Rest Day Working
Exception payments from WW Disruption Agreement (One Down and Zone Closure)
Daily Overseas Allowance (DOA)
Time Away Allowance (TAA)
Willing to Work

IT DOES NOT INCLUDE MEAL ALLOWANCES!!!!!!!!!! SPREAD THE WORD AROUND THE GLOBE BEFORE THEY ALL GO ON STRIKE AGAIN!!!!!!!

The free ticket did sound good (to me if no-one else:rolleyes:) but Eddy with your two year pay rise you can buy yourself an ID90 mate and still have some change.:cool:

Shah - it is only the pay rise that is for 2 years. It is an exceptionally good offer under the current climate. Every working person I know is taking a 2 yr pay freeze, right now. If people can't recognise the benefit in getting a 2 year pay rise in the current economic climate, then I'm afraid there truly is no hope.

I am still BA cabin crew, still posting my own viewpoint and not that of BA, and still banging my head against the wall.

Eddy

26th Jun 2010, 05:13

Eddy,

Please STOP! This is exactly why things get blown out of proportion within our community. Tomorrow it will be all around the globe that this offer now includes meal allowances. Aaaaarggghhhh!

Betty Girl has printed the entire offer two pages ago - read it and then read it again, particularly this bit:Get over yourself! :rolleyes:

I overlooked that bit. Apologies. I was working from the information provided to me in an email from the company but, granted, I had omitted to look at the full offer which, in hindsight, was a poor judgement call.

Nevertheless : get over yourself.

Eddy, read Appendix I. Meal allowances are not included in the variable top up pay and never were in the MTP.

It's quite simple: the variable top up pay is an enhanced version of the MTP as it guarantees that nobody loses out. Note: you only get this if you don't strike.Thanks mate. I must be missing something somewhere, because I see little difference between what was offered in terms of the MTP, and what's being offered now.

Chigley

26th Jun 2010, 06:38

Eddy

The way I am reading this new average payment is that it is a figure that has been set as an assurance if all the lucrative work were to transfer to mixed fleet. This figure (as an average) is the minimum we should expect to get and if it falls short then the 'top up' applies.

In the meantime all crew on current terms and conditions will still continue to earn the variable pay as they currently do. In essence the 'average payment' is not a replacement of variable pay like MTP was but an assurance for us to protect our pay should the work dry up.

I hope thats right? I'm sure someone will correct me if I've misunderstood?

IYCSWICSWICW

26th Jun 2010, 06:50

So, still well paid, same old bad-apples sitting in the same barrel, same old inefficient rostering (SH). Where is BASSA when you need them?

malcolmf

26th Jun 2010, 07:58

I'v just seen the offer, its basically a 2 year deal?
What happens after 2 years?
Who knows? We might not have an airline in 2 years.
Concentrate on the here and now and fight that fight if it happens. I wish I had got a pay freeze for two years instead of the 7% pay drop I had last year.
Disciplinaries cannot be dropped, it would be anarchy.
ST I would let it come back next ST year, with some seniority hit maybe. Most of us aren't vindictive. Might happen when the truth and reconciliation commission starts!
Pleeeeeeeease sign and lets get on with survival everyone.

HiFlyer14

26th Jun 2010, 08:15

Eddy,

I'm over myself now.:p

Chigley has given a good explanation. But just to put it another way.

Forget MTP. That has effectively gone.
We will now earn our variable allowances as we have always done. The difference is: to counteract the worries about "sitting at home with no work" we have a "guarantee of a minimum payment" (GMP ;)).

Therefore IF you were to sit at home with no work, you would earn the GMP rates (as specified in Appendix 1 and NOT including meal allowances!). If you earn more than that, then you take home whatever you've earned.

It is, for want of a better word, a security blanket. I for one think we are very lucky that our employer has resolved this issue in such a win-win way. I would like to publicly thank them for being so magnaminous in this situation.

IYSWICIWSICISY (sp?)

Please remember Rome wasn't built in a day. BA are making their savings through reduced crew complements and now the earlier, and larger than planned introduction of Mixed Fleet. This is a huge adjustment for our community. If BA are happy, and we are happy, I think you will see a more effective workforce and that has got to be a good thing.

I agree with Malcolmf. We now need to sign it and get on with restoring our customers' faith in us.

This is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 08:23

Eddy.
I know you are a very bright person because I read your posts and agree with a lot of what you say.
Read the whole agreement and I think you will see that the new amount is a guarantee this time not a replacement of our allowances like the last MTP offer.
The last one was a total average replacement based on 2009 variable fully taxable payments.
This offer is a guarantee that if you happen to take home less than this average amount, bassed this time on 2009/2010 variable fully taxable payments, you will have your pay toped up to thoes average figures.

Meal allowances are still going to be paid as they are now.

So this time people wont be disadvantaged if they do lots of long days like Moscow or three day trips because all the variable pay like ETP, Box payments, O/T,Cat payments and B to B payments are still going to be paid as they are now. This system only comes into its own if you earn less. IT IS A GARANTEE NOT A REPLACEMENT THIS TIME. That is what makes it such an improvement.

Shar100.

I know it must be hard for you to understand all these issues.

I am not at all happy with what has been happening to the cabin crew recently and I do not like Willie Walsh's management style.

However BASSA have been saying NO NO NO for years and years and years to BA. Small changes could have been made years ago to make our comunity more cost effective. Some of our practices are very restrictive and we could have accepted a number of changes in the past.

Because we have made NO changes at all, and many crew agree with BA that some changes are nescesary, BA have come up with this NEW FLEET out of desperation for some change.

BASSA have actually made things worse. They are actually the cause of New Fleet. Had they made some changes years ago like one senior cabin crew member on Eurofleet and fixed links. New disruption agreement on World Wide, CSD to actually work on the flight !!! sounds shocking doesn't it that prior to this alot of them just sat on their backside most of the flight, none of this would be happening now.

BA actually earlier in the year made an offer so that new entrants could come into our fleets in return for a few concessions from us but BASSA was too busy arguing about the CSD having to work and planning to strike, to actually sit down and agree this with them.

Now New Fleet has been brought in with NO INPUT from BASSA and it is their fault. BA are putting into New Fleet every wish that they had ever wanted. Eg. direct managemet transfers from other dept. into CSM job, merit promotion (which isn't so bad a thing), no overtime etc etc and low pay. Had BASSA actually negotiated they could have achived a much better result.

So basically this strike has done nothing but cause all the offers to be worse. The improvement to the current offer is a direct result of current NON STRIKING crew telling Bill Fransis what they were unhappy with and he has made some changes which go a long way to making us feel safer about our future earnings as we all have comitments to meet.

All BASSA are now interested in is getting staff travel returned and reinstating sacked crew which of course they had before they ever went on this useless strike.
However no doubt BASSA will try and take credit for this improvement even though it could have been achived with them talking in the first place instead of costing our employer millions.

I don't want anyone to lose their job but I am sick of this barking mad union and if they choose to strike again they deserve to loose their jobs.

I hope the majority will see the light and realise that this offer is good protection for us. The two year guarantee by the way is just the pay deal part.

Hope I have explained it so that you can understand things a bit better and also realise why so many of us came to work and are unhappy with the unions stance.

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 08:45

IYCSWICSWICW

I can't understand your stance. I don't know what department you work in but surely you would not want your pay reduced. Crew are people with homes and families and the vast majority take home a quite normal salary enough to have a mortgage and bring up their family.

Cost savings can be made by productivity and that is what BA has done. Even greater cost savings are being made with this new fleet and I think that the new entrants will mostly be young people living at home with their parents because 11K is a very low salary and although with the 2.40 flight pay it will be uplifted, but unlike other jobs air crew need to pay for food and meals when away and this is not cheap. You can't just pop down to Tescos for your supper like the rest of the population. So even with the flight pay I would be suprised if the take home is more than £1100 a month.

But hey, maybe you or your partner would think that is good and maybe you would wish that on our current crew too but I for one am glad you are not in charge.

64K

26th Jun 2010, 09:04

£1100 take home a month isn't great, I think everybody realises this. Remember, though, this is a starting rate and there is still the performance bonus element to it although who knows what this might look like.

As an aside, from what I have heard, there are IFCE managers who do not earn a great deal more than this. I remember hearing £1300 take home not so long ago. That has got to hurt too!

(Views above are my own, not those of my employer)

Meal Chucker

26th Jun 2010, 09:10

I initually couldn't understand why cabin crew were striking during these difficult times. I backed B.A during the strikes but after speaking to loads of cabin crew, started to understand what was going through there mind.
Started to see there struggle for what they felt was an injustice towards them.

What are the injustices or issues, as you understand them?

I'm crew and I can't fathom them out!

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 09:34

64K.
I agree with you completely but what I find hard is people revelling in others having their pay slashed.

In my opinion the world has gone mad. People in the city taking home larger and larger amounts of pay, CEO's etc taking home huge amounts more in real terms than 10 or 20 years ago. Normal workers having their pensions slashed. These new people will be on such low amounts they will barely be able to put much away into a pension anyway.

How on earth as a society are we going to be able to cope in say 50 years time when most of the population have been squashed onto these minimum wages and not made any pension provisions. While some in our society are getting richer and richer. It is almost like we are going backwards as a society and the general worker is getting poorer and suposed to be grateful that they have a job.

Anyway as you probably know I did not agree with the strike, I'm not a militant or left winger either but comments about people should be happy or feel lucky because there are lots that would like their job etc. just seem short sighted. As a society we should all be striving for everyone having a good living and a comfortable life. Not actually enjoying others misfortune.

I am just an ordinary person with an oridinary mortgage working for a company, that I have worked hard for, for 22 years. I happen to live in one of the most expensive parts of the country.
I don't apologise that I worry for people who are young now because salaries are being artificialy forced down by the availabilty of lots of people willing to work for less and in my opinion this is a step backwards for the future of our society.

Anyway that is my political speach over.

617sqn

26th Jun 2010, 10:30

Could somebody please clarify.
Is the guaranteed top up payment fixed at 09/10 rates or will it change yearly?

Tiramisu

26th Jun 2010, 10:39

I for one think we are very lucky that our employer has resolved this issue in such a win-win way. I would like to publicly thank them for being so magnaminous in this situation.

We now need to sign it and get on with restoring our customers' faith in us.

Very well said, HiFlyer.
I too, echo those sentiments. Ready to sign on the dotted line....

THANK YOU, BA.
BRAVO.:D

IYCSWICSWICW

26th Jun 2010, 11:10

Betty, hun, my post was poorly thought out, enter button struck etc. Sorry. I regard BASSA as borderingon the criminally negligent in their handling of Industrial Relations.

No-one wants their pay cut - too true, but mine has been. As far as I can see things, BA has been absolutely patient, to the nth degree, in an attempt to fix the 'cancer' (remember that comparison?) that eats away at BA's brand. Willie Walsh is formidable, and yes, perhaps his style is not everyones rosie lea. But, by G*d, he's effective. What many still fail to grasp is that 'it's a business', and he is a business man - that said, the business still employs folk on fantastic T&C's. So, after all of this, yhe company is still offering a tight package to the current membership. BASSA, no doubt will self-serve, and shoot it out of the water, but, will blame others when it is accepted, as it surely has to be.

The bad apples? I, was refering to the hard-core members who choose to enter into the day job carrying XXXX labels and stuff. How divisive is that? What is the purpose of doing so? Attitude, attitude, attitude. It's your choice on the day, but how 'very' dare those that choose the bad apple attitude on the day. They have what to prove? Other than poor judgement, for all to see, in following a dysfunctional branch of Unite. It gets my goat (I'll get my coat).

IYCSWICSWICW, stands for, If You Could See What I could See When I'm Cleaning Windows. George Formby - my hero. I used to be a window cleaner myself, worked hard, saved up and retrained. I now work elsewhere, but still look out of a very expensive window now- facing forwards.

GF

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 11:15

617sqn (http://www.pprune.org/members/318164-617sqn) wrote: Is the guaranteed top up payment fixed at 09/10 rates or will it change yearly?It would make sense to increase the variable pay top up otherwise inflation would devalue it over a period of time. BA will indeed increase the top up in line with base pay increases.

As an example: if cabin crew get a 2.9% pay rise in 2011/12, the minimum variable pay full time main crew would receive per annum would rise from £6,616 to £6,808 (WW) and from £1,737 to £1,787 (EF).

617sqn

26th Jun 2010, 11:34

Carribbean Boy
Thank you for your reply.
That will help to allay some of the worries crew may have.
There is a feeling in some quarters that, as the trips transfer over, the B2B payments and long range payments will diminish thus making the yearly average lower.
If the guaranteed payment will increase then that is good news.
Another point is that 09/10 was a low earning year due to the ash cloud and IA(I know! Don't shoot me down on that one)
The MTP was based on the previous year and was a higher amount.

Lots of different issues being talked about by crew at the CRC.

For a lot of people (in both camps)this has been very stressful.
If this latest offer has the potential to stop any further unrest it can only be a good thing.

Stiffco

26th Jun 2010, 11:35

because 11K is a very low salary and although with the 2.40 flight pay it will be uplifted, but unlike other jobs air crew need to pay for food and meals when away and this is not cheap. You can't just pop down to Tescos for your supper like the rest of the population. So even with the flight pay I would be suprised if the take home is more than £1100 a month.Oh please Betty girl.
Enough of the sob story :{
With respect to food, you know as well as I do that in many places you can eat very well, for a lot less than the meal allowance.
Also, best not to forget that when you are away you are not having to pay for gas, electric, petrol, wear & tear on your soft furnishings etc. etc. etc. Where shall we stop?

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 11:35

Betty girl (http://www.pprune.org/members/328774-betty-girl) wrote: Read the whole agreement and I think you will see that the new amount is a guarantee this time not a replacement of our allowances like the last MTP offer.Actually, both the MTP and the minimum variable pay (plus top up) are guaranteed. The minimum variable pay just comprises the same allowances which were in the MTP, the real difference is in the top up. Either way, cabin crew have been offered what is in effect an increase in their basic salary, good for security, mortgage applications, etc.

I think that BA has to be commended for listening to concerns about cabin crew losing out to Mixed Fleet and coming up with these proposals. Unfortunately, I don't expect Unite to recommend the variable pay top up to their members.

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 11:42

617sqn (http://www.pprune.org/members/318164-617sqn) wrote: Another point is that 09/10 was a low earning year due to the ash cloud and IA(I know! Don't shoot me down on that one)
The MTP was based on the previous year and was a higher amount.A union should be negotiating the minimum variable pay, trying to get something a bit better. Will Unite do this?

617sqn

26th Jun 2010, 11:44

NO.
Their main concern is ST and suspended crew.

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 11:58

IYCSWICSWICW

Thanks for your reply. I think when we all put things down on paper sometimes they come out sounding more harsh than we first thought. I think it happens to us all.

If you have read any of my posts you will see that I am totally baffelled by BASSA's approach. I feel they have been the actual cause of New Fleet.

Even though I feel this latest offer is a great step and I am happy to accept it. I feel by BASSA causing the company to set up New Fleet as their only way to get round BASSA's negative negotiating methods. ie. never actually sitting down and conceeding to anything, will cause us further problems in the future. I feel that BA will again come back in the future to try and achieve more savings from WW and E/F because BASSA have not let them address some of the outdated practices we have. Now they will have another set of crew to directly compare us with. Thanks BASSA.

So I am totally fed up with this nutty leftwing union. I wish that our unions had gone the way German unions have, together with their employer they try to workout solutions that are fair to both the business and the employer in a normal working manner.

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 12:19

Stiffco.
Have you actually worked out how much someone earning 11K actually takes home.

I know that we do not spend all our allowances on food that is why we get taxed on over half of it. However these new crew will struggle because their basic is so low (especially as they need to live in the LHR area) they will need to take home a great deal more of their allowances to make ends meet.

It is not a sob story for me at all as I am current crew. I do however feel that this is not a good starting salary for anyone whatever job they do and whereever they might work.

I know that flight crew get taxed on 20% of their hourly rate of meal payment allowance but I also know that for Gatwick cabin crew theirs are taxed almost the oposite way around. Due to the recent audit by the tax man LGW had their meal payments taxed more because they had found it hard to show they were spending it on food and the reason for that was because they needed to take it home because their basic is so low, although not as low as New Fleet. Presumably the tax man will treat the New Fleet crew this way as well. So all in all anyway you look at it, this is a very poor wage the new starters will be on.

That was all I was saying. No sob story. Just sad for future crew. That's all.

essessdeedee

26th Jun 2010, 12:32

Betty Girl,

lets not lose sight of the point that new/mixed fleet will be in at the market rate(+10%). Since our competitors appear to have no recruitment problems, I doubt that we will. This fleet will succeed with enthusiastic, motivated crew that are not yet locked into financial commitments.

I don't see it as "sad" for future crew at all. Have you looked at starter rates in other businesses? even in the south east!

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 12:42

Well essessdeedee,

Actually it is not 10% above other airlines.
BMI starting rate is £11,508 Plus 2,838 london weighting Plus flight pay per hour on top. So that is £14,346 plus flight pay. Just looked it up on their website. There in black and white for you to look at too.

Starting rate for charter crew at Thompsons is £11500 flight pay is 2.85 ph. That's a charter airline.
Virgin is more also schedualled.
So where is the market rate PLUS 10%

Please feel free to show me an advert for a premium airline that is paying less

clublemon

26th Jun 2010, 12:42

shah100

I hope these issues with the cabin crew are resolved, but I know after doing my research on Willie Walsh and his management, that they have other plans up there sleeves for my department as well as others.
To him, outsourcing is always the best route for ground staff.

Shah, if other plans are in store for other departments then so be it.

Outsourcing is one possiblity of many. Yes im aware of various trials focusing around productivity on the ground but can you honestly say that getting paid upwards of £2500 per month is justified for some for example whose daily work stops at "boarding 3 flights a day"

Im not saying the blame lays anywhere for this....but in the current climate it isn't just IFCE which needs looking at. There are several "gravy trains" in ALL departments which needs to be stopped if the business is to grow and lets face it...make profits and shareholder return...the reason why the company exists in the first place which many people seem to forget.

Ava Hannah

26th Jun 2010, 13:36

Unless Staff Travel is given back, I am not bothered with this new proposal. They can stuff it. I commute from JNB and I can't wait for years until the Staff Travel issue appears in the European Courts.

They have replaced MTP with a 'top-up payment' which includes a no strike clause. That itself indicates that you will lose a huge amount of your pay if you take industrial action. A two year pay rise? Are BA trying to bribe us to accept a proposal? They have also based the top-up payment, which is £1500 less than the MTP in previous proposals, on last year and this year's schedule which includes three industrial actions and the ash volcano incident. Either way, MFH is going to take all of our lucrative routes and we will have to rely on a silly top-up payment. I don't even want to think of how long it is going to last before they rip that up.

Why did they send out the proposal on a Friday night? And individual offers? BA are trying to divide us even further. Nice try. Sorry Bill Francis and Willie Walsh. Unless you give my Staff Travel back with my original seniority, which I think I have earned after 17 years of continuous service with BA, I am not interested. You could offer me all the money in the world, I still wouldn't take it unless Staff Travel is given back.

Stiffco

26th Jun 2010, 13:38

Betty girl.
I answer to your question - no, and I know that I would not be able to get by on that amount.
It is undeniably a fairly meagre amount, however it will be topped up by numerous extra payments.

The term sob story was not directed at you personally and I apologise if that is how it came over. However, you should look at the bigger picture.
£11000 + this + that + whatever = significantly more than many people are earning.
I am 100% sure that many young people will see it as a very attractive package, I am also 100% sure that BA no longer want a huge department of career cc - you simply cost too much - and will be very happy when these same people move on after a few years

SlideBustle

26th Jun 2010, 13:46

Bettys Girl,

I agree with you with what you said about CEOs getting richer etc.

I do not agree with the strike, I am not militant, BA HAS been patient with UNITE, this dispute is a mess, and I am not socialist or a left winger AT ALL!

But, it does annoy me how in society if you are well paid you are told to ''think yourself lucky'' just by having a DECENT pay. I am on New Contract and I am well paid, but it is only decent! I still don't live a champagne lifestyle, not that I expect to I will have you know - but people talk about our job as though we get so much money we can go on 5 holidays a year own 4 homes inlcuding villas abroad etc etc.... and we work hardly any of the time! I know many crew who still struggle to pay their rent and remember it is reliant on a good roster as our basic is very very low on new contract!

I do think rather than slating people for earning a good wage, people should see at as the standard and work towards getting a good wage!

It does seem as though society is going backwards with regards to this, but that is just how I see it.

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 13:51

Refer to http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline_data/2009Annual/Table_1_14_Airline_Personnel_Cost_UK_and_Overseas_2009.pdf.

Average annual pay* for cabin crew is poor for all compared with BA. For example, Virgin Atlantic pays only £14,400. This suggests a basic salary below what BA if offering to Mixed Fleet.

* Included are gross salary (before deduction of income tax, pension social welfare and voluntary payments), overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay and subsistence allowances, (such as cost of living allowances, station and overseas allowances) and all crew hourly flight allowances (i.e. those in excess of travel and incidental expenses).

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 14:10

Carribbean boy.

You cannot take average salaries like that chart shows and compare that with new starter rates. You are comparing apples with pears. Plus virgin figures do not show the allowances they are paid as at Virgin they get paid those in cash. Trust me the starting pay for Virgin is more than £11000. The allowances are more than 2.40 ph.

If you take a quick look at the average pilot salaries on the other side of your chart you will see exactly how misleading these figures are.

SlideBustle

26th Jun 2010, 14:11

BA cabin crew ARE paid more than other airlines..... currently. But also so are Pilots. Although maybe percentage wise there is not as much of a difference.

However, EZY, Thomson, FlyBe and even BMI (which I am surprised with) are all quite reasonably paid.

I am not sure what the salary will be with allowances included for Mixed Fleet Heathrow??? Anyone hazard a guess as I haven't worked it out. They will work harder so more, but also be paid from report to clear but 900 hours only covers flying hours, doesn't it??? (Think total duty hours can be 2000)

Also with regards to that table - remember BA do have alot of crew who have been in the company since 1970s, 1980s - which means there salaries are higher. Some airlines (like Virgin) have a high turnover meaning that more of their staff are more junior meaning they will have less pay. So this means that a junior at Virgin and BA may not be that much different (I know we are better paid but I am sure you can see what I am saying - that that chart is not that accurate!)

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 14:20

Side bustle.

I have worked it out.
2000 hours x2.4 = £4800
Add that to 11,000 = £15800 divide that by 12 months and you get £1316
before tax. Then take off about £200 per month (a very modest amount to spend on food down route) and you get £1116 still before tax.

So if any of you think that is market rate for someone before tax,fine, but I think it is a very low wage.

essessdeedee

26th Jun 2010, 14:21

Not looking to split hairs, but if you are going to post BMI and Thomson, can you also let us know what their direct entry CSM and FTC rates are to confirm that BA are not offering a competitive rate?

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 14:32

Essessdeedee.
Am pretty sure they don't have direct entry CSM's. But I think the CSM £25k will be popular with alot of current crew and some crew from other airlines. I don't disagree.

You know, the pay does not affect me. All I said was that it is low and it is.
£1100 before tax is low and that is if you hardly spend anything downroute while you are away on food.
Plus at LGW, which consider themselves bad off.
1.) they earn more than 11,000
2.)Their hourly rate is more and
3.) they get a breakfast alowance on top at alot of their destinations which New Fleet won't.

This pay is very low no matter how much you want to make out it is not.

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 14:48

Betty girl (http://www.pprune.org/members/328774-betty-girl) wrote: Plus virgin figures do not show the allowances they are paid as at Virgin they get paid those in cash.Why you think that Virgin is not reporting to the CAA the downroute allowances paid? An allowance is an allowance, regardless of the form of payment.

essessdeedee

26th Jun 2010, 14:49

To call it low, it all depends what you compare it to. As I said before, look to other businesses. I still stand by my point that BA wont struggle to find suitable applicants.

SlideBustle

26th Jun 2010, 14:53

As far as I know most of the charters at least do not have direct entry. Also remember some of these charter airlines Thomson (used to be Britannia and FCA/Air 2000, merged) and Monarch are also very established airlines so must have lots of crew on an older contract.

I do think £25,000 plus £2.40 an hour plus performance pay is competitive. Although it is alot of responsibility as there will be no PSR on board a 777.

However we are talking about Main Crew salaries on Mixed Fleet - they are quite low! Especially considering we are not an airline who is soley based as somewhere like Leeds Bradford (no offense to anyone who lives/or works out of Leeds) But this is London and the South East of England which is very expensive. Then again I suppose BA do not want crew to stay long which is the point.

SlideBustle

26th Jun 2010, 14:56

You are right Caribbean Boy, I think Virgin basic pay is around £10,000 for a new starter - similar to LGW. I am not sure how their allowance/flight pay structure is.

There is a thread on here in the cabin crew section actually asking other airlines what they get a month averagly.

MRC1972

26th Jun 2010, 14:57

I've been following this topic for a while but never thought to join Pprune until now.

I am an ex 11 month temp. I'm actually very sad over the whole mixed fleet even though after wanting to join BA for a long long time a permanent position is now on the cards.

This new mixed fleet is going to be charter! its going to attract young crew, no disrespect to anyone but its going to be young folk that I used to fly with in my charter days, don't get me wrong. I was that person once, discussions of the room party on the flight, gossip from downroute antics. BA is not like that, BA is what you aim for after those days and thats exactly what I love about it.

This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.

All very sad, and I agree its a shame BASSA didn't negotiate NF not happening.

winstonsmith

26th Jun 2010, 15:04

clublemon

26th Jun 2010, 15:11

MRC1972

This new fleet and new intake of young crew is going to ruin everything about BA.

I think it will be a breath of fresh air having "young crew" onboard who yes will party etc downroute but also will give good service "with a smile" onboard which isn't always the case at the moment.

The performance pay element will ensure that service onboard will be consistently good as opposed to at the moment i.e getting paid above the norm for good or bad service depending on your mood with no repercussions.

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 15:36

Mar1972.

You are so right.

Clublemon

I am sick to death of people making out BA crew are rubbish. I work on eurofleet and I work with crew that smile all day.
BA cabin crew win award after award for their service. Sweeping statements like the ones you make are very unplesant.
Have you flown down the back on another carrier recently.
I doubt it. I flew recently on Virgin and after the meal we did not see one of them for hours. They even turned the call bells off!!!!

Lots of us have come from charter airlines so we know exactly what it is like.
When you get lots of young people working in an airline sickness will rocket, . Some will come straight from a night out to work with a hangover.

I AM SORRY BUT YOU MUST BE WORKING IN A DIFFERENT AIRLINE TO ME

I am sad that new crew are not going to be working with us now because I love new crew but the picture you paint of us crew is not fair and untrue. Most BA cabin crew are charming and go out of their way to please their passengers.

ptc

26th Jun 2010, 15:37

Having worked 6 years for Virgin and now at BA, in both respects I have and do enjoy the job, HOWEVER

Virgin was def more fun, as crew are younger, enthusiastic and yes they do want to party down route but this makes happier crew on board I believe! I agree that every airline needs a certain amount of experience but I do believe the way MF is heading is that it will be more like Virgin on board. I think this is a good thing!

No disrespect for my colleagues at BA, but there are some miserable people working for us as crew who think BA owe them a living, not to mention lazy. Its about time we got some fresh blood in and have a mix of both young, new and experienced crew on board. This is not to say that also alot of our crew are very good at their job, but in my experience there isn't so many of these crew around BA.
Oh, and the job is not all about throwing out the service as quick as poss in order to maximise breaks! I would personally rather spend more time on giving the customer exactly what they deserve then get an extra 5 mins of break time!!!

The best comparison is LGW, I think these guys are great, have fun and deliver great customer service, they aren't on LHR wages but they certainly don't moan about it. They get on with it and enjoy the job for what it is.

Bring on MF, can't wait to be part of ONE HAPPY OUTSTANDING TEAM!!!!:D:D:D

ptc

26th Jun 2010, 15:43

Oh and one last thing, CRM

Well I can't wait to go back to being all part of the same team instead of 'them and us' attitude. I get on well with my flight crew colleagues and very much enjoy their company.

Oh and before someone says : well go back to Virgin then', please don't bother. Im only giving my views, and im so happy I have come to BA as I think this is a great company to work for and look forward to the future! I have also worked with some fantastic crew so please don't get the impression I putting everyone in the same boat!

SlideBustle

26th Jun 2010, 15:58

PTC,

GO BACK TO VIRGIN THEN!!! :ok: I only joke!

No I see what you mean but I also see what MRC1972 means aswell..... I am a ''young crew'' myself on one of the current fleets.

I don't phone in with a hangover etc etc.... even though I am young, but I know what Betty's girl is saying as some younger crew do. But then again, that doesn't mean all young people are like that or slackers!!

I can see what people mean about young, enthusiastic people etc.... as we do have some miserable people who are bitter and jaded. But we also have fab experienced crew who are not jaded and still have as much passion for their job as when they joined. And obviously have experience in the jobs. Which is a good thing.

I think a mix is a good thing. Overall, let's not judge people on age but how their attitude etc to their job is.

clublemon

26th Jun 2010, 15:58

Betty girl

If your read my post i said "isn't always the case at the moment"

I have had some wonderful flights with BA crew however I have also witnessed first hand some crew who also had similar attributes to those Virgin crew whom you state after the meal did not see one of them for hours.

In addition a recent satisfaction poll highlighted that Cabin Crew satisfaction improved and this coincided with many of the VCC being onboard....so whilst there are some crew who deserve award after award....there are also many who do not- which was my point i. e Younger crew with Performance related pay who actually want to to the job, is good for the Company.

I agree that you cannot make sweeping generalisations. A lot of current crew are excellent. But then you state "when you get lots of young people working in an airline sickness will rocket" Is this not a sweeping generalisation?

MRC1972

26th Jun 2010, 16:13

At the moment i'm hanging on to see what develops. Saying that I feel like I can see into the future-

Lots of know it all crew, some will somehow get the themselves into CSM positions. I don't even see how BA can recruit for this position externally without first considering internal main crew waiting for promotion. I just hope recruitment get it right.

I don't understand why people keep saying 'fresh crew' 'people who smile' - take a trip on a charter then post your experience. You'll probably find your cabin crew are on their 1st or 2nd season - Pam Ann's different crew impressions spring to mind..

ptc

26th Jun 2010, 16:14

Slidebustle

You are absolutely right, its not about age at all its about passion and attitude. There are some fantastic crew at BA and I really do mean that, and these are the sort of people that we need to retain along with bringing other passionate crew from outside.

MF is the way forward, yes I agree the pay isn't great, but hey, if you are willing to work hard, your performance will pay off with bonus AND it is possible for these type of crew to become managers and make a career. I never had great pay at VS but you know I was happy and thats what counts. I know happiness doesn't pay bills, but at the end of the day unless you are in it for the long haul and make a career( where the money is), then see the job as fun then move on!

You sound like a dedicated person with the right attitude:ok:

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 16:16

Well Clublemon.
You are right we should not generalise. But people keep on talking about a few rotten crew which you get in every airline and making it sound like we are all rotten.

I work on eurofleet and we did not have many VCC's on our flights. Might it be that all the dedicated non strikers might have made the survey results go up!!!! Or are you once again putting down all BA cabin crew. Those of us who did not agree with the strike also worked during the strike as well as VCCs.

It is the sweeping nature of alot of peoples comments that are very upsetting to those of us who worked through the strike, who have really good relationships with the flight crew. I certainly do on Eurofleet. I work tirlesly to make my passengers happy and I don't think on eurofleet I have seen a miseable crew member for ages. But people insinuating that it will all be so wonderful because of New Fleet I find very upsetting. However from what you say you must be on longhaul so maybe it is different there.

ptc

26th Jun 2010, 16:32

Betty Girl good on you for working through the strike! I think during this period we had all the great, positive people, along with VCC's working hard to keep BA flying.

You are right, I know it must be upetting to hear some comments about some crew, but I think this is more so the case in long haul, but like you said, you cannpt put all BA crew in the same boat. My las few flights I have worked with some FAB people! Like you say, you get bad in every airline.

Ive never worked for EF and im only stating in my experience, there were more happier crew at VS and had more fun.

LD12986

26th Jun 2010, 16:49

When you get lots of young people working in an airline sickness will rocket, . Some will come straight from a night out to work with a hangover.

But the one airline that has historically stood out with astronomically high sickness rates is BA.

It seems clear from the company's proposals that NF will have a very robust system of performance management and any issues around attendance will be nipped in the bud quite quickly.

cessnapete

26th Jun 2010, 16:53

Why did you go on strike when you were told you would loose ST if you did so??

That's self inflicted injury with such a long commute. If you do get it back it will be with zero seniority.

Mr. Walsh has loyalty to the non-strikers at the moment, he will not want to disadvantage them.

Any action in the European Court could take years. If I were you I would get that CV off to SAA!

The Blu Riband

26th Jun 2010, 17:15

Ava

You are missing the point.

You are never , ever , EVER, going to get staff travel back by striking.

The best you could do is accept this deal and insist your union starts negotiations in the not too distant future to re-instate it.

Why didn't you accept the previous offer?

Difficult to have sympathy with someone who commutes such a long way but obviously didn't consider the ramifications of striking.

MIDLGW

26th Jun 2010, 17:50

Betty girl,

"You know, the pay does not affect me. All I said was that it is low and it is.
£1100 before tax is low and that is if you hardly spend anything downroute while you are away on food.
Plus at LGW, which consider themselves bad off.
1.) they earn more than 11,000
2.)Their hourly rate is more and
3.) they get a breakfast alowance on top at alot of their destinations which New Fleet won't."

A couple of corrections, as your post isn't quite accurate.
1) Some LGW have a lower basic than £11K
2) LGW hourly rate is the same as MF.
3) Our breakfast "allowance" is actually a meal. In some hotels, it's breakfast, like it or lump it. Some hotels (mainly short haul) give us a voucher with a value of a set amount. One hotel (AFAIK), gives us a daily "allowance" which we can use for any incidentals during our stay. We don't get cash/money - ever.

I just wanted to clarify this, as wrong info isn't helping.

What we at LGW have that MF won't get, is:
Overtime (extra pay per hour when duty goes beyond 10.5 hrs)
Overnight allowance (the vast sum of £10 per night....)

Personally, I think there will be plenty of applicants. It's up to them (at least the successful ones) to decide whether they want the job or not and whether they can survive on the pay. Performance related pay is a genius invention, which will sort the wheat from the chaff easily.

IIRC, Singapore Airlines (or is it Thai?), give their CC a 2 year contract. If you're not exeptional, that's it. If you're brilliant, you get another 2 year contract. I know this can't be done here due to the law, but it does make sense as it keeps them on their toes, so to speak.

Ava Hannah

26th Jun 2010, 17:56

Why? BA were being unreasonable and would not participate in serious negotiation. They played a nasty trick on us commuters. BA thought they could scare us by threatening to remove our most valuable benefit should we go on strike. By all means, they removed it but good luck getting a deal with our union which has some 10.000 members unless Staff Travel forms part of it. Unite have repeatedly said they will never recommend a proposal which does not include full reinstatement of it. Bassa have also given us reassurance that they will not either. I for one will never accept a proposal which does not include full reinstatement of Staff Travel.

To take industrial action is a democratic right. To punish people for taking industrial action is not. Willie Walsh and his regime seem to think they are above the law. Many of us have been at BA a long time and have great pride in our careers. We have created BA. Look what has happened to this company because of Willie Walsh. Was one airline not enough for him to destroy?

Let's ballot again. I know where I am putting my X.

Queen_Of_No

26th Jun 2010, 18:22

No disrespect for my colleagues at BA, but there are some miserable people working for us as crew who think BA owe them a living, not to mention lazy. Its about time we got some fresh blood in and have a mix of both young, new and experienced crew on board. This is not to say that also alot of our crew are very good at their job, but in my experience there isn't so many of these crew around BA.
Oh, and the job is not all about throwing out the service as quick as poss in order to maximise breaks! I would personally rather spend more time on giving the customer exactly what they deserve then get an extra 5 mins of break time!!!

Bring on MF, can't wait to be part of ONE HAPPY OUTSTANDING TEAM!!!!

Partly agree on this. Out of my experience working with crew on the ground and from the occasional staff travel trip, I think that the majority of our crew are fantastic. However, there are a lot of lazy and selfish individuals around, too. Have plenty of examples. E.g. spoke to someone who said that he doesn't like LCA, as they're "not well paid and too much work, as customers ask for drinks all the time." Likewise people trying to come off their LOS, DEL or BOM. Or this lady trying to come off her DME, as she commuting from Hertfordshire and the clear time of this DME does not suit her for the journey home. Get on with it. Our customers want to fly there and the customer's ticket's pay for your wage in the end.. :rolleyes:

Can you blame BA for looking to bring in performance related pay?!! A person on the old contract can give a toss about the customer and still would get an increment each year. So why bother? I'm well excited about MF and can't wait to see it launched and have more motivated crew delivering service excellence to our customers.

This is my own personal view

Betty girl

26th Jun 2010, 18:22

Sorry I got some of that wrong MIDLGW.

But breakfast allowance in the form of a voucher is what I meant. So that is worth more than nothing, it converts into food that you don't then have to pay for and £10 a night is worth more than nothing and overtime is worth more than nothing. So you have actually shown that you get alot more than New Fleet from your own posting.

I am sure that you agree that LGW are not paid much.

So therefore I presume you agree that New fleet are not earning much too.

Did you not say in a previous post that you wanted to transfer to LHR where your wife is or I might have mixed you up with someone else from LGW.

Anyway whatever it is that you wish for I do hope it works out for you.

I don't know why but just by saying that I think the starting rate for New Fleet is low somehow I have upset people and everyone seems to want to prove me wrong and say it is fine.

Most of these people are not actually having to ever live on this type of money.

I do agree that this is ok money for someone young living in shared house or with parents and many of you think that is great, lots of great keen youngsters. What I think is good is a nice mix of good profetional experienced crew and youngsters too, but hey. What do I know. I am just one of thoes older dedicated crew that alot of people seem to write off as overpaid and lazy.

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 19:21

Do LGW crew still get a trump day? MF crew won't get this.

Spanner in the works

26th Jun 2010, 22:12

Ava Hannah

They played a nasty trick on us commuters.
Was hardly a "trick". You were told about what would happen - and it did.
If he/BA had done it in retrospect - some would have more sympathy.
And what about the chants on the Bath Road and other places.
"You can stick your ID90s up your a**e"?
I thought, from that, that ST didn't really matter to you.

Willie Walsh and his regime seem to think they are above the law.
If they have acted "above the law", then why haven't the Unions gone to court over it yet?

Many of us have been at BA a long time and have great pride in our careers. We have created BA.
Yep - so have I, 25 years. We have ALL created and maintained a World-Class standard at BA. So what's your point?

Look what has happened to this company because of Willie Walsh. Was one airline not enough for him to destroy?
Last I saw, BA was still flying and getting through a massive economic recession DESPITE a certain part of the workforce trying to bugger everything-up.
If you looked further than your own myopic view of the world, you might see that what BA/WW are trying to do is ensure we have a company to work for in the next 5-10 years.
We have ALL lost out in the past 3 years in an attempt to contribute. No pay rises, no bonuses, pay-cuts, unpaid leave, less colleagues within teams - you name it.

If all this was happening during a profit-making period for BA - I and I'm sure others would probably be more supportive. But it isnt.
Have you seen the last two sets of annual financial results?
Are they indicative of a company cutting costs for the sake of shareholder and management profits?

Caribbean Boy

26th Jun 2010, 22:20

Ava, it's only a matter of time until you cannot afford to commute, so you will either have to resign from BA or significantly reduce your standard of living. Either way, you will suffer. Striking will make your situation worse, not better. If Unite had accepted the Way Forward Agreement you would have got your staff travel back for commuting.

Blaming Willie Walsh is just a cop-out, both you and Unite are responsible for your situation.

Sporran

26th Jun 2010, 22:33

beesflyer

26th Jun 2010, 22:42

MRC1972; Re your question on charter crew. I flew Gatwick - Tenerife - Gatwick with Thomas Cook the other month. How were they ??? Bloody good as a matter of fact and at least better than some BA crew I have flown with. Not only that they were happy to collect up pax rubbish before landing. Ever done that ?? no, thought not !! In saying that I have had the pleasure of flying with some brilliant BA crews, so sad it's come to this.

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:00

the tone of this discussion seems to be dropping. The way to move forward towards a solution is not to throw insults at BA cabin crew or their standards. There are good and bad in all departments.

For those of you that are gloating and delighting please remember that the majority of crew did not back the strike and went to work under very difficult circumstances to contribute just as much as you to the success and survival of the company.

There is now another opportunity for settlement on the table, winding people up will not push them towards accepting! BASSA is doing enough of a job of that on their own.

Who ever said that the best way forward for staff travel would be to accept a deal, make it work, THEN negotiate the return of ST is right. I think it's the only way it will happen.

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:03

beesflyer

BA employ turn around cleaners, BA crew begin collecting rubbish after the first bar round and continue through the flight. If you had a choice of BA or Thomas Cook on the same day at the same time on the same route, who would you choose?

Ava Hannah

26th Jun 2010, 23:15

BA are giving us existing crew assurances about our future and the idea that they care about us. Where were you when my five year old son passed was suffering from leukemia? Where were you when he passed away? I received nothing but arrogance from you. All you ever cared about was my attendance and when I would be coming back to work. You never gave me the support I needed. I can still remember every single telephone call I had with you. What makes you think that I should believe that you actually care about us?

beesflyer

26th Jun 2010, 23:16

Flying Nunn, this was in answer to MRC1972 questioned the ability of charter Cabin crew and only that. He / she appears to ask how good they are, I fly with charter crews to TFS a lot and they are very good.

As to CC collecting rubbish ( newspapers, etc ) sorry, BA crew don't.

We pay OCS at LHR to do this, most of their time on turnarounds on shorthaul flights on which they get 15mins and 90mins on longhaul to clean and dress the outbound aircraft is collecting rubbish of this sort.

.

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:26

We could do it beesflyer, but it is cheaper for BA to pay cleaners on the ground to do it. You seem to be forgetting that BA offers a full service product, not a charter one. I can assure you that BA crew are very busy on board now that we have new crewing levels. Let me repeat that BA crew begin collecting rubbish right after the first bar round and then through out the flight.

So who would you travel if you had a choice between Thomas Cook and BA on the same day on the same route at the same time?

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:28

of course if you could find an empty stowage on a BA aircraft to stow some extra bins then you would be a hero to the crew in an instant. Perhaps Thomas Cook have space on board for more bins because they offer less product.

beesflyer

26th Jun 2010, 23:48

Flying Nunn. Thomas cook crews are just as busy as BA crews on shorthaul and still find time to collect rubbish of all description.

As to who would I fly with. BA for brand, Thomas Cook for costs because there is no difference in service on shorthaul. I guess more people these days are choosing costs thats we are bleeding passengers currently, not helped with this industrial action.

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:49

beesflyer

going back and editing your post is not very sportsman like!

The situation we find ourselves in is not about who collects rubbish on board.

Please answer the question, if you had a choice on the same route on the same day at the same time, who would you choose to fly with?

the flying nunn

26th Jun 2010, 23:57

thanks for your answer. are you a BA employee?

If Thomas Cook is cheaper then you mustn't be using staff travel. Have you ever seen the price comparison tool on ba.com? More often than not after all of the extras that you pay with charters and low cost carriers BA comes out on top.

winstonsmith

27th Jun 2010, 00:13

Ava Hannah - I'm not sure but I think I might know who you are - you sound like a purser I worked with on a HRE trip a few years ago - she had received very little support from BA after her young boy had passed away - we talked about it during 2nd break - they were more interested in when she would be returning to work than her well being.

Please don't take it out on current management - they have nothing to do with it - please PM if it's you.

beesflyer

27th Jun 2010, 00:34

TFN, last post on this.
Please read my first post on this topic. I was flying LGW -TFS - LGW. BA do not fly to Tenerife, and yes I am BA staff.
To me, on this type of route it's about the quality of service and costs ( the reply to the original poster my reply was about quality of crew/ service, which he / she questioned ). Thomas Cook crew are as good as some BA crew, fact !! By no means all. this is getting a tad personal so as before, this is my last post on this subject.

Take care,
EB

Chesh01

27th Jun 2010, 06:01

Ava Hannah, said:

"BA were unreasonable and would not participate in serious negotiation"

and

"We have created BA!"

The first is such a load of complete rubbish I cannot for a minute understand the mentality of such an idiotic statement.

The second statement shows such blinding ignorance and arrogance - and typifies the 'mentality' that WW is having to contend with.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Sadly there are still alot of crew who see Ava's point of view or more likely are easily inflenced to see things her way. I believe there is a serious and continuous culture of demonising everything said by BA management in the galleys and forums related to Bassa worldwide. I am convinced that their views are intransegent.
For us moderates we have to steer to the path of non-conflict, get on with our jobs and let BA management continue with their plans for moving the company forward. I do sympathise with what the atmosphere is like on worldwide especially if the CSD is a striker.

Right Engine

27th Jun 2010, 06:08

Ava. You need help. Using your desperately sad story about your son to prove what? Get some counselling.
Thinking your company should provide you that support was a mistake. Most people turn to their friends and family for support, not their company. If I was off for an extended period, I'd expect my manager to ask when I'd be back! ALL companies work this way!

the flying nunn

27th Jun 2010, 07:06

Right Engine
do you think that you might have been able to put your point across in a slightly more sensitive manner. People do have lives outside of BA and from time to time life's events can sometimes be overwhelming. I have heard some amazing tales of support from BA and some not so amazing like this one.

Ava sometimes we think we have overcome the things that have happened to us only to discover years later that we haven't. Please don't mix the situation we are in now with the one that happened to you, they are separate. If you want to talk about it why not speak to your GP, family, etc. I bet your work colleagues would listen no matter what side of the fence they are on about the present dispute. If you are down route you can call on crewcare, help direct etc. I'm really so very sorry that you were treated badly when you lost your little one, you owe it to yourself and to his memory to rebuild your life. best wishes to you and your family.

Meal Chucker

27th Jun 2010, 07:06

25,000 want BA **** jobs airline is creating to beat the strikes | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1289946/25-000-want-BA-scab-jobs-airline-creating-beat-strikes.html)

wiggy

27th Jun 2010, 07:29

The way forward must be inclusive of all

I think some would ask: why? Frankly (and sadly) given recent experiences I'm not sure that it is at all possible.

essessdeedee

27th Jun 2010, 07:40

Thinking your company should provide you that support was a mistake.
BA do provide counselling support via helpdirect. Cabin crew also have crewcare. Her manager would have suggested both.

the flying nunn

27th Jun 2010, 08:39

Fair comment Wiggy, there has to come a time when people decide that staying in the company is either for or not for them. For those that choose to stay there will have to be an acceptance of the changes. This might be more difficult for some than others. Those of us that have seen through the BASSA spin could easily become bitter and resentful towards those that took IA and denied us the chance of a better deal. As much as I am angry at BASSA for behaving the way it has I am going to play my part in moving things forward, if that means I have to forgive the error of some of my colleagues ways then that's what I will do. I would hate to end up as bitter as some of the people that post on the other two forums. Two wrongs don't make a right as my mother always told me!

Nutjob

27th Jun 2010, 08:51

Caribbean Boy

Ava, it's only a matter of time until you cannot afford to commute, so you will either have to resign from BA or significantly reduce your standard of living. Either way, you will suffer. Striking will make your situation worse, not better. If Unite had accepted the Way Forward Agreement you would have got your staff travel back for commuting.

Blaming Willie Walsh is just a cop-out, both you and Unite are responsible for your situation.

Spot on, and the most unfathomable thing for me is that Ava and her ilk haven't even paused, taken stock and realised that striking has ALREADY made their situation worse.

1. Their beloved BASSA have forced BA to introduce MF (where sensible negotiation and sensible cost-saving "gives" would have given BA little incentive and no valid reason to do so)
2. Strikers have lost staff travel and are having to set up and fund their own "Crewdefence" because UNITE won't help (knowing it's a lost cause). More money down the pan for strikers.
3. Strikers have lost anything up to a month's pay and allowances
and
4. BA now have a huge workforce of VCC (from all parts of the airline) and temps with which to undermine any subsequent strikes.

And before the strikes?
1. NF/MF off the table
2. Everyone had ST
3. Strikers hadn't had to lose pay & allowances
3. No temps / VCC's.

Congratulations BASSA, you gave WW everything he could have hoped for and more.

It's gonna be a long, cold and expensive wait to get those wish-list points (ST, disciplinaries etc) back. :ugh:

But please, disagree with me and tell me what positives BASSA have achieved. Also, for the record, the strikes were NEVER about NF/MF (they couldn't be legally) so don't start the "now look what's happened, bloody scabs" argument. It's fundamentally flawed. NF/MF is a direct consequence of you striking!

LD12986

27th Jun 2010, 09:00

Now being reported that Unite is to suspend the next ballot to allow a vote on current deal.

BA Cabin Crew Industrial Action: Unite Leader Tony Woodley Says Strike Ballot 'Will Be Postponed' | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/BA-Cabin-Crew-Industrial-Action-Unite-Leader-Tony-Woodley-Says-Strike-Ballot-Will-Be-Postponed/Article/201006415655468?lpos=Business_Carousel_Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15655468_BA_Cabin_Crew_Industrial_Action%3A_Unit e_Leader_Tony_Woodley_Says_Strike_Ballot_Will_Be_Postponed)

LD12986

27th Jun 2010, 09:47

I think it depends on whether it is a genuine secret postal ballot or a repeat of the previous online (with submission of membership details etc) poll.

Ava Hannah

27th Jun 2010, 09:53

I think you could AND should at least expect your employer to be reasonable and give you some time and respect when you are going through a family crisis. Not phone two days later and ask when you "anticipate" to be coming back to work. I never asked BA to act as a shoulder to cry on. That's not the support I needed. The support I needed was work wise and all they did was to make me feel like a burden, say that I would go down as a "no show" plus everything else they said and did. It was an enough struggle as it was, which BA could have at least tried to make it a bit easier. I'm sorry if that's too much to ask for! I don't trust for a second that we are dealing with a caring management. Not the way they have acted during the course of this dispute including telling tales to the media and all of their other little tricks.

If removing a company benefit for taking industrial action is not punishment, what is it? A favour? I can never accept a proposal which does not include full reinstatement of staff travel neither a proposal which includes it but with zero seniority.

Indeed we have created BA. The people at Waterside might "manage" the company but they never meet and spend as much time with the customers as we do. We have to accustom to and deal with every change they do. A new management takes over and destroys everything which we have achieved. They are not here for life. They are here for a few years before they move onto something else. What exactly have Willie Walsh achieved during his time as a CEO in BA? He has cost the company a lot of money and bad publicity. It's beyond me that this man still has the support of the board and the shareholders. Hopefully it will change.

Right Engine

27th Jun 2010, 09:59

Apologies for my insensitivity. I see someone who projects their sense of being the 'victim' who, with a bit of professional help, can move towards a more positive life. The stress of the strike can't have helped and I'm sure there are hundreds just like her, who through the irresponsible behaviour of her senior reps, are left with such an overwhelming sense of helplesness. Blame or more accurately, 'projection' is a natural human response.

Caribbean Boy

27th Jun 2010, 11:17

BA's latest offer has no material bearing on the dispute from Unite's point of view, which is about the use of VCC, ST and disciplinaries. So, why has Woodley said that Unite must "put this offer to our members"?

I think it's because Unite knows that they have lost the war against BA. Why? It's because BA has now launched recruitment for the new Mixed Fleet, which will operate from 1 November. Unite knows very well that it's only a matter of time before MF becomes the big fleet. It will take 10 years, more or less, but the writing is on the wall for WW and EF. Unite also knows that Willie Walsh is not going to cave in and will operate more and more flights throughout any future disputes.

So, Unite is now hoping to get a resolution by having their members vote on BA's latest offer. This can be done by recommending the offer to members, backing down on VCC and disciplinaries and negotiating some sort of deal on ST - say, strikers get it back immediately without seniority and have seniority restored after a year without IA.

Hotel Mode

27th Jun 2010, 11:18

Holley says this

I don't know if those of you who are asking what BASSA thinks this morning heard my interview which followed Tony Woodleys but I made it very clear to Sky that ST was still very much an issue and until that is solved to your satisfaction or approval this dispute is very much on.

I am also doing a further filmed interview with Sky and probably C4 later today and will re-iterate that point.

I have also spoken to TW this morning and he is as committed to the return of ST as he ever was. It is as fundamental to him as you.

A lot of this is making sure we are not outmanouevred by BA. The deal has changed, we need clarity on what BA mean about "guarantees" for example and for that clarity the ballot will have to wait a few days. We have a branch meeting on Monday week, which is perfect timing. We don't want the media spending the next week accusing us of failing to consult our membership and BA making hay at the same time.

Nothing else has changed here, from where I sit the staff travel punishment to those who supported BASSA/UNITE is a crucial obstacle to peace and must be addressed before anything else.

Right I've got to go and iron a shirt. Please be mindful that all is not always what it appears.

Rgds Duncan

But BA sent this letter to Unite on friday which may have nudged unites hand

In the letter from Brian Boyd and Brendan Gold dated 9th June and in a more recent flyer from Unite, three issues have been set out, slightly differently in each communication, on which you will be basing your ballot. I would like to point out that the three items you advise you will ballot on have all figured throughout this unresolved dispute. Whilst we are carefully examining the reasons for your new ballot, we would like to point out that we believe they are not new items and therefore, you are potentially putting your members at risk.

fruitbat

27th Jun 2010, 11:23

25 June 2010

Dear Tony & Derek

Following formal notification on 22 June of your forthcoming ballot for further industrial action, I am writing to advise that the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ which has been available since 6 April 2010 and that you recommended rejection of in your online ballot, has now been withdrawn with immediate effect.

Attached is a revised Final Position which will remain available until you begin your ballot of your Heathrow based members.

We make this offer in a further attempt to reach an agreement before you continue to inflict more damage on our reputation and undermine the job security of the members you claim to represent.

In the letter from Brian Boyd and Brendan Gold dated 9th June and in a more recent flyer from Unite, three issues have been set out, slightly differently in each communication, on which you will be basing your ballot. I would like to point out that the three items you advise you will ballot on have all figured throughout this unresolved dispute. Whilst we are carefully examining the reasons for your new ballot, we would like to point out that we believe they are not new items and therefore, you are potentially putting your members at risk.

My response to each point you make is as follows:
British Airways will deploy resources appropriately to support our customers and our operation. Your current members of cabin crew have continued to have their appropriate collective agreements applied.
Staff travel will not be fully re-instated but the opportunity to have it applied with an amended date of joining does remain available. As my previous gesture on staff travel was while the ‘Way Forward Agreement’ was in place, we have outlined in a revised letter to Brendan Barber the position on staff travel being made available.
The disciplinary procedure we have in place is robust as we have consistently stated. To address your concerns I did offer to allow Acas to attend disciplinaries as observers to allay your concerns about fair and reasonable treatment.

I would strongly urge you to consider the content of this revised offer carefully before you initiate your ballot. I look forward to hearing from you.

Tony McCarthy
Director of People & Organisational Effectiveness

The Blu Riband

27th Jun 2010, 13:37

Ava

I am sure you will find it very easy to find a job somewhere in South Africa, or maybe Zimbabwe, or perhaps even anywhere in Europe, that will prove to be a much more satisfactory employer than BA.

Good luck

wee one

27th Jun 2010, 18:53

Ava

I am sure you will find it very easy to find a job somewhere in South Africa, or maybe Zimbabwe.......

Good luck

Which would be much more appropiate than living in S.A. and working as cabin crew from a London base as a commuter. Methinks the CAA should have a bit of an audit on travel , rest and fit for duty. Might highlight some creative practices. The fact that this goes on is the true indicator of how BA needs an enema.

Whats the difference between the England team and BA cabin crew on strike?

One is a group of over paid,underachieving, self absorbed, primma donnas putting little effort in while claiming to be the best representing the flag......

The other is the England football team.:E

gcal

27th Jun 2010, 19:15

Can what remains of this dispute be finally put to rest:

BA 747 crew commended for escaping near-stall on take-off (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/26/343738/ba-747-crew-commended-for-escaping-near-stall-on-take-off.html)

Rover90

27th Jun 2010, 19:52

Did anybody else pick up on Tony Woodley's piece to the media today.

He maintains that the latest offer is a good one but he cannot recommend it because it does not address the issue of staff travel and disciplinary action taken against members.

My view is that Tony Woodley has now concluded that this matter has run it's course but BASSA have yet to be persuaded as staff travel rights and disciplinary action against members are conditions of any settlement.

Mr Walsh is going to offer the new terms to non-union members on a personal basis, this is a 90 day notice of change of contract wrapped up in nice paper and the majority will surely accept.

Whilst this is being processed, a substantial number of BASSA members will be clambering to sign up to the new agreement and will certainly be looking to BASSA to allow them to have the opportunity.

If BASSA refuse to ballot it's members then there will be an outcry from the still moderate majority element within BASSA who are not in the 2500+ striker group.

Mr Walsh can sent the same 90 day notice to BASSA members and sit back and wait for the signed acceptances to come flooding in.

Mr Duncan Holley, although you are no longer a BA employee, you have a problem.

In the words of Rolf Harris "Can you see what it is yet"?

SlideBustle

27th Jun 2010, 20:54

I must admit I am dubious of this offer to be honest now having had a closer look.

The fact that BA initially said they would recruit 184 crew to start Mixed Fleet.... to allow reinstatement of crew complements to be increased on some flights on current fleets but now are saying they are recruiting 1250 (which is fair enough as many of us said we didn't understand why UNITE were pushing for more crew as it would bring Mixed Fleet quicker!) however now our crew complements will stay reduced as they are (again fair enough) but they are recruiting a lot of Mixed Fleet crew than they planned before.

Does this mean that the amount of routes that need to go over are increased. There is no mention of what routes will be gone to Mixed Fleet in November. OK so that is UNITEs fault as they have not been negotiating this, but I am worried that more routes will need to go.

1250 to start on Mixed Fleet is alot more than I expected!

On the other hand The new payment at first glance looks less than before is just a minimum - however if you work harder you get more - so that is actually better than before so that is acceptable.

However it does seem to be lacking in detail with regards to guarantees for us current crew.

Also I am shocked at the pay for new crew. I know that people are willing etc etc.... but it is less than I thought and less than market rate as easyjet and some charters get more, bearing in mind we are based in the most expensive part of the country.

I am still in two minds, but if we continue striking - the offer is likely to not get better is it?? Also maybe this Mixed Fleet through performance pay etc etc may improve performance and get rid of people who are here but do not enjoy the job. I don't know!