Question on buying a plane

[billysmith]

What are peoples views on purchasing an aircraft. I am not sying I am currently in the financial position to do this, but for a touring aircraft, what do you think twin or single. For eg: Piper Meridian or a Baron

For a private owner do you think the single is safer and get yourself in less trouble than flying a twin.

[Lasiorhinus]

Singles are cheaper.... and I think a Caravan would be a great self-contained touring aircraft... room down the back for a bed, too, if you take out some seats...

[aileron_69]

Well it all depends on what you need it for. i.e. how far you want to fly, how many you want to carry, and, more importantly, how much coin you have to burn.
I wanted a 6 seater with good range for VFR trips that wouldnt need a sponsership from OPEC so I got a 210 with long range tanks. Its not a bad beast. You have to decide if you want to burn twice the gas for not a great deal more speed in a Baron. Im looking to put a TSIO550 in my 210, then i'll have a pretty fast, pretty economical 6 seater.
But if you are talking Meridian's you are in a slightly higher league than anything I'll ever fly.

[tail wheel]

...not sying I am currently in the financial position to do this...

Buying an aircraft is the cheapest part..... :uhoh:

[VH-XXX]

Owning an aircraft is like a bacon and egg sandwich.

The Chook is involved, but the Pig is committed.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Buying an aircraft is the cheapest part.....

Words of wisdom from the Wheel!

I used to joke that when I won Gold Lotto, it was off to Tolouse to pick up the TBM 700/850! The reality, however, is that feeding such a beast would soon gobble up what was left of the big win - and I would be grounded.

Unless you have a tax-deductible reason to fly or are seriously independently wealthy, it is hard to see the average person being able to afford much beyond a substantial home built of the RV variety or one of the common GA 2 - 6 seat singles.

GA twins may look cool - but think 2 x C210 or Bonanzas flying in formation. Very hard to justify, even from a safety point of view, unless you are doing a lot of night flying or long over-water legs.

Australia supposedly missed the GFC, but it is interesting to reflect on the number of private twins and singles that have departed my home aerodrome since the GFC kicked.

Meridians, Caravans, P12s and TBMs are fun to dream about, but the only people I know who operate them privately have very substantial businesses backing their operation.

The FTDK used to share a hangar with a lovely Baron and the ramp with a couple of very nice Bonanzas - but is now the only one left!

Dr :8

[Ultralights]

yes, buying an aircraft is expensive! i have recently bought my second, both Raaus registered, one factory built and one Kit built,
yes its very expensive, especially with hangerage in the sydney region now being the biggest ongoing cost,

but the satisfaction of opening the hanger doors dragging Your aircraft out into the sunlight, and lifting off the runway and taking up heading to a far off destination.... that is priceless.

[wombat_keeper]

Essuming your a rational person and without a bottomless pool of money to draw on and don't wish to purchace your own aircraft fractional ownership may be the go.
You can find plenty of flying syndicates in the av trader i know of at least 3 at the moment on the east coast.
One in particular is $3500 a share and enables you to hire a arrow for $140 an hour.
The advantages of being in a syndicate are endless.....

You genrally have better availability than you'd find at a school or club
Having completed the "IM SAFE " checklist in the back of your VFG you take your key and go ( NO RIP OFF CFI demanding you get a check ride before hire.
Pride of ownership and insight into whats involved in operating aircraft.
You can still hire other aircraft if you get bored with it after a while ( its not like a marrige)
Downsides include.....

Having to contribute cash in an emergency i.e early engine
Having to find a suitable buyer for your share to get out ( can take a long time )

Anyhow Billy its all food for thought im confident you'll make the right decision.
Just be aware that if you were thinking about going it alone and want to base and insure 4 seater GA lighty at a former GAAP field you would be looking at around $14000 p.a before the prop even swings. :ok:

[VH-XXX]

You should have come to Warnervale to the un-reserved Auction yesterday.

1978 BEECHCRAFT ME-26 DUCHESS VH-CLE (http://www.slatteryauctions.com.au/online.php?action=dai&mode=doi&aid=410&aucnum=&itm=26466) Item #6281-1 Qty : 1Item Type : General Description / Item Information1978 BEECHCRAFT ME-26 DUCHESS AIRCRAFT REGD:VH-CLE TOTAL AIRFRAME HOURS: 9029HOURS. ENGINE 1 TOTAL TIME: 1950 HOURS (SHOWING) TIME SINCE OVERHAUL 1950 HOURS ENGINE 2 TOTAL TIME: 1950 HOURS (SHOWING) TIME SINCE OVERHAUL 1950 HOURS PROP HOURS: PROP 1 HARTZELL TIME SINCE OVERHAUL 1950 HOURS PROP 2 HARTZELL TIME SINCE OVERHAUL 1950 HOURS AVIONICS: ADF KING KR87 AUTOPILOTS CENTURY III DME KING KN63 GPS COMM GARMIN GNS430 MARKER BEACON KING KMA24 NAV COMM KING KY97A CURRENT MAINTENANCE RELEASE


Sold for $25k.

It even had a GNS430 and they are worth US$10k !

A mate was saying we could have bought it for $25k'ish, sold the engines to some RV builders, sold the GNS430, parted out the rest, put it on a pole outside our local airport and walked away with a few grand!


PS: The Buccaneer sold for $45k if I'm not mistaken.

[billysmith]

Thanks everyone. It is still a dream at this stage, but from a safety point of view I didn't mean a twin was any safer. I actually thought if you are not flying it every week, then a single might be safer - engine fails you glide and try not to hit anything, with a twin, engine fails, try and fly on one engine, but if your are not quick enough you have a world of trouble (spin, spin, spin).

Also think I might have been a bit naive about the operating costs.

Cheers

[Mach E Avelli]

Whereas a two seat RAA type could run as cheap as maybe $2500 a year fixed costs and maybe $60 an hour for the flying budget. That's what I allow and so far it's worked out fine, even allowing for a few unscheduled items along the way like new exhaust mufflers and a radio fritzing itself. As long as I disregard having money that could be earning interest tied up in a toy. Of course that money could be on the sharemarket....I will enjoy the toy, thank you. Cost of ownership also depends very heavily on whether you can do basic maintenance, which is allowed under RAA but not so easy with a VH rego unless you get a really understanding LAME on side. You don't have to build one to own RAA rego - plenty for sale in the RA magazine, often with only a few hundred hours total time.
Private aircraft owners tend to do less than 50 hours a year, so that fixed cost quoted above of $14,000 for a 4 seater is one helluva price to pay for the satisfaction of ownership. Then there's the AVGAS whereas most RA machines will run on 98 octane from your local servo. Not too many VH machines around will TAS at 100 knots burning 15 litres an hour, either.

[billysmith]

Just for fun, if I had the money, and i CERTAINLY DON'T, but if I could afford a Cessna 208, does anyone have ball park operating figures.

Thanks

[Jabawocky]

For private ops it will cost you a minimum $1200 per hour and thats if you use it a bit I reckon.

Dick Smith should be able to answer that for you.

Forkie has summed it up well. Even an RV10 that gets lots of use and fixed costs split 50/50 will cost you about $175/hr and thats based on 100hrs a year. Most private folk do not do that or even half that.

I did manage 175hrs this last year.

If you are a low to moderate user....join an aero club and rent it. If it Flies Floats or F#### rent it...cheaper by the hour....or minute!

[VH-XXX]

Even a Jabiru could cost you near $130 an hour considering the loss of interest on the outlay including hangar and insurance etc.

[tail wheel]

"...but if I could afford a Cessna 208, does anyone have ball park operating figures."

Figure on $1,000 per hour at 1,000 hours per annum. Reduce the annual hours and the hourly cost increases proportionally.

VH-XXX. Looking at that Dutchess - and I don't know engine and prop TBO - it has to cost over $130K with OH engines and props.

Having owned seven or eight aircraft over many years, I can say with total confidence that the two happiest days of your life will be the day you buy the aircraft and the day you sell it! I've also owned seven yachts and five sports cars, the rest of my wages I spent foolishly.

My advice if you think you would like to buy an aircraft, take a cold shower, a couple of BEX and a long lie down! If the urge is still there, burn a $100 bill and if you find that enjoyable, go buy your aircraft.

Renting someone else's financial woes is still the cheapest option!

[WannaBeBiggles]

igure on $1,000 per hour at 1,000 hours per annum. Reduce the annual hours and the hourly cost increases proportionally.

I am quite curious as to the method people use to calculate an ideal utilization of aircraft vs. cost. (if this is too much of a thread drift I'm more than happy to start another)

Obviously there are fixed costs (hanger, insurance etc) and the costs involved with standard servicing such as your 100 hourly, oil, incidentals, replacement of an engine and fuel which is slightly variable but can be easily calculated non the less.

How does one work out the good average mean of running the plane?

Obviously if the aircraft is under utilized the fixed costs hit your hourly rate considerably, but if it's over utilized (if there is such a thing) then one would assume the only factors that change are your running costs but they would be the same.

i.e. 1000 hours a year = 10x 100 hourly's and 50% of your engine life.
1500 = 15x 100 hourly's and 75% of your engine life, plus all incidentals and operational costs of course.
Or is it the fact that a major service will take the aircraft offline for x weeks which puts you behind the curve?

[VH-XXX]

What does the damage in both GA and RAA is when something abnormal comes along and income is lost. Prop strikes can be frequent and for the dumbest of reasons, wheels ups (but in a remote location) etc and the potential massive income loss around that, insurance gaps, transport, paying wages etc. Something that also gets you is stuff that breaks. It only takes a dead battery at $500 or a failed AH and DG on top of a 100 hourly tha makes you wish you could do overtime. Those that think that the operator getting $100 an hour dry for their light single is a good thing should think again. Just think to replace a $1800 TSO'ed AH is not just 18 hours flying, it's a lot more in reality, considering tax etc.

[VH-XXX]

VH-XXX. Looking at that Dutchess - and I don't know engine and prop TBO - it has to cost over $130K with OH engines and props.

absolutely tail wheel, they'd have to be close to $50k per rebuild youd assume plus props which would surely be out of time. Best bet for that aircraft would be on condition operation for a private owner.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have had the Bo out of the air for 2-3 months at a time with maintenance issues. Lost revenue would wipe you out if you were relying on that to pay the bills.

Dr :8

[Tankengine]

If you are flying for fun you guys really need to head out to a Gliding field!:ok:

[Wanderin_dave]

Tried that Tankengine. Wanted to try Gliding as it looks a hell of a lot of fun, i went down to a large gliding field to ask a few questions. Don't think i've ever come across a bigger bunch of self inflating w&nkers in my life. Was told in no uncertain terms that i would be rubbish and the senior instructor delighted in telling me just how many of his students couldn't go solo as they weren't good enough (Says more about the instructor me thinks!). Never went back.

Anyways, back on topic...... I did the sums on aircraft ownership. All in a Cessna 120 was going to cost me $23,600 a year to 'enjoy' (100hrs). That's a lot of coin.....and i reckon GA private ownership wouldn't come much cheaper. Eeek. :eek:

I rent! :ok:

[frigatebird]

' The key to knowing what you want, is knowing what you must give up before you get it. '

[Tankengine]

Sorry to hear that Dave, try going to another field [the slightly smaller ones a bit further from capital cities are sometimes better!]:ok:
Unfortunately the W&^%**s are in all types of aviation.:ugh:
PM me if you want more specifics.
One thing about gliding is that many clubs train in the equivalent of 1960s Vee Dubs as trainers, it is a different world racing V8 Supercars!:}

[AdamFrisch]

As I've been looking into ownership myself very extensively lately, let me give you the figures I have. This is for a Cessna Skymaster on the N-reg.

Insurance for low time pilot: $5500/year

Engine rebuilds @ $26000/engine x2, which on a 1500hr TBO, equals $34/hour.

Annual varies, but never less than $4000 and most certainly closer to $10000/year on an older aircraft.

Hangarage obviously varies, but count on $250-500/month.

Fuel at about 20GPH is in the US about $100/hr.

So at the max you're looking at $48300 a year. Now, you might not fly that much and you might get hangarage on the cheap and you might lean out on every flight to save fuel, and you're still looking at an easy $30000/year. That's a lot. Most Symaster owners in the US averages about $30000/year. This I have straight from the horse's mouth.

For a single obviously you can get away with probably half that, maybe slightly more.

However, let's look at what 200 hrs for a rental aircraft would cost you in the UK: I pay about £127/hr for a 12.000hr C152. That's £25400/year. Now, I know I'm comparing apples and oranges here with £ and $, but in no way would it be cheaper to rent at that usage. In fact, the break even happens as low as about 40hrs. So not only is it more expensive, but it has all the inconveniences of not getting access, not being able to tour for long trips etc etc.

And if you really want to own on the cheap, get an old Jodel or a Taylor Monoplane or something and you could probably fly for less than £3000 a year. No rental could beat that.

[LUCKY-1]

Thats the funniest thing I have heard for sooooooooooooooooooo Looong!.. U really ctack me up.

Love it

[VH-XXX]

The Chook is involved, but the Pig is committed

Nice work. It takes a higher than average IQ to hear that and relate it to the discussion straight off. Good work!

[aldee]

For those of you debating ownership versus hiring have a look at this guys spreadsheet;Estimated Costs of Aircraft Ownership (http://ben.com/flying/costown.html)

I'm currently looking at a 50/50 partnership in a Maule M5-235c in NZ with a mate whose wife is an accountant.
Our numbers based on 200 hours / year work out at $50/week/each to cover fixed costs & $125/ hr flight time.This equates to a total cost of $151/hr on 200hrs utilisation or $1.08/mile.
Versus renting similar aircraft (if you can hire one) breakeven hours are 126/yr.

Based on 100hrs/yr this equates to $192/hr or breakeven @ 140 hours.
These figures do not take into account the cash up front but if you'd happily shell out for a new family car or boat do you calculate money out of the bank/finance costs/km?
If you're serious about your aviation and do the hours I believe ownership can be the way to go,sometimes in life you have to be prepared to roll the dice :ok:

[Ultralights]

a 450 Hr old Savannah, cost of finance, regp, insurance, engine replacement, periodic inspections, fuel, hangarage, etc etc

worked out around $70/Hr

[VH-XXX]

@ $70 an hour you are dreaming.

Surely your hangar in Sydney area is $40 or more a week and fuel near $20 an hour.

How many hours is that based on per annum?

Surely that STOL thing would have set you back $60k+

Surely the interest alone would be near $50 a week ??????

[Ultralights]

less than half the cost was financed, maintenance is spares only, (im qualified) fuel at 17 ltrs / hr Mogas, and covered by vehicle lease accounts with the private practice. insurance is relatively cheap, below $2K (+500 hr pilots, no training use) hangarage is the biggest cost.
on the spreadsheets, exact hourly cost came in at 72.35 per hour. based on running the 912ULS to TBO exchange. average usage so far has been 30 hrs a month.

Edit, correction, re-read my figures, and forgot to add in the fact is co owned, cost are 72.35 each.. so total is $144.70 Per Hour.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Best way to work out if you can afford an aeroplane for 'fun' is

1/. Can you pay cash for it?

Borrowing money for a depreciating asset, unless there is a business/tax write off available, is to my mind silly. Mind you people do it with cars all the time so WTF would I know?

2/. If you need to put the aircraft on line you cant afford it.

Aeroclubs/flying schools COST you money.

3/. Take the typical average fuel flow and multiply by the cost of fuel and then multiply that answer x3

You'd be amazed how close that is to spot on for 100 hrs/annum utilisation. If you're REALLY lucky it will be slightly conservative.

Calculating the annual cost of ownership is relatively easy - accepting that maintenance can be a case of 'how long is a piece of string' sometimes but the figures below worked out pretty well for my Bonanza before I pulled it out of the air for the restoration. It would work equally well for anything in that class/age group assuming a good clean airframe - C210 etc.

Fixed costs (what you pay whether the aircraft flies or not.)

Insurance $4000
Hangarage $4800
Maintenance $6000 (indicative only - some years may be 3k and some might be 10k)

Total/annum $14800/100hrs= $148/hr

Direct operating costs.

Fuel 55 liters/hr @ 1.74/liter $96/hr
Engine/prop $25/hr
Total $121/hr

All up $269/hr. Funnily enough (55x1.74)x 3 = $287/hr.

You will have some extras, if IFR, for airways/terminal/GPS data base and you're gonna pay for landing at most places. Probably $1000/annum but its too variable for me to bother with for the purposes of this post - its $10/hr so not a huge expense and likely swamped by just the variation in the cost of avgas from one location to another. If VFR most of the time and you don't land at places like BN/SYD/BK etc too often it will be less. If this number is even a vague concern don't buy an aeroplane:rolleyes:

To my mind making all sorts of extra calculations for 'opportunity cost of capital' - what you MIGHT have done with the money instead of buying an aeroplane - is dumb. You either want an aeroplane or you don't. As we have seen recently around the world, and its a nightmare coming to Australia soon, you can lose money on anything, including real estate - so why not lose it on an aeroplane, at least they are fun:ok:

Of course if you borrow the money you need to add that annual expense. Banks are getting stung VERY badly at the moment at repo auctions so don't expect a bank to give you the cash unless you have LOTS of home equity and use that - and maybe not then.

The fixed costs are what it costs to own the aeroplane each year so the way I think about these things (I try VERY hard NOT to think about it too much) the first hr each year costs $15000 and every hour thereafter costs circa $120-130. This is what is so silly about people who own aeroplanes and don't fly them much. Flying the aircraft is the 'cheap' part. The only way to make it LOTS cheaper is to have a couple of like minded mates and enter a partnership - $15k becomes $5k. You can also save a fair bit on owner assisted maintenance - aircraft maintenance is VERY labour intensive and labour is expensive. You can easy save a couple of grand a year doing all the grunt work yourself - if the maintenance shop doesn't allow that take your aeroplane elsewhere.

200 hrs per year won't double that maintenance figure but increase it by 50% or so. In that figure above a 'annual' is about $3000 and the rest is 'stuff'. 15k might become 18k and /200 = $90/hr + DOCs.

The only REAL rule is buy the best airframe you can find/afford - go to whatever expense is necessary to establish the condition of the airframe - everything else gets replaced eventually anyway. You don't save much, if anything, buying a 'cheap' aeroplane - sooner or later you will pay - either up front for a really good airframe or 10 years down the track when you get to restore it:ok:

In my opinion NOTHING approaches the satisfaction of flying your own aeroplane where you want and when you want - and that is worth something too.

The rule of 3xFF in $ works pretty well across the board assuming you're not a LAME/don't have the skills+tame LAME to sign stuff off for you. Something that burns 30 liters/hr (Super Cub for instance) is going to run $155-160/hr. 40 liters/hr (Warrior/C182) about $210/hr for 100 hrs/annum.

A Baron/C310? - (120x1.74)x 3 = $575:uhoh: Like Forkie said above, 2 Bonanzas flying in formation.

[VH-XXX]

Edit, correction, re-read my figures, and forgot to add in the fact is co owned, cost are 72.35 each.. so total is $144.70 Per Hour.
pretty much on par with going hire rates for a similar aircraft.

That certainly changes things as I suspected.