The best aircraft in and out of La Môle (LFTZ)

[pascualito]

Hello,

Let's assume for a second that you want to operate in and out of St-Tropez's airfield, la Môle. Ideally with 4 to 6 pax and 2 pilots.

The aircraft can be a turboprop (PC12, KA 200-350), but a jet is vastly preferred. We have been thinking about CJ1 / 1+ - CJ2 /2+ and Premier 1A. Anyone has another idea?

When leaving La Môle, again ideally with 4 to 6 pax, destination is not more than 400NM away.

The aircraft is to be commercially operated, but the owner's flights to La Môle would be done under private rules. This part is cleared, so no sweat there.

The question is, what aircraft would you prefer and why? Budget is not part of the equation, what counts is finding out the best bird for the mission.

Standing by for comments from the experts :ok:

[Trim Stab]

If you need to be able to get out of La Môle with 6 pax in any wind conditions then you will need a PC12.

If you insist on jet, and can accept that there might be rare occasions when wind conditions mean you can't depart, then go for CJ2. There are other light jets that could do the job - but CJs are easier to acquire, operate, and sell than most.

If budget really is no limit, you could look at Falcons. There is one Falcon 50 permanently based there.

[Deeko01]

If its commercially operated dont consider a CJ2 because you will never make the figures work, would love to see someone demonstrate to me you can do it on a CJ1.

I think a Citation V probably could do it commercially but we havent tried and dont fancy it either!

[His dudeness]

I do have experience in the B200 and the CJ1/CJ2/2+....can´t comment on the others.

From a pilots point of view, I´d prefer the B200, as it is the best bird (IMO) to deal with gusty and high crosswinds and downdrafts, which is an issue at La Mole. Stopping (Landing distance) is no issue at all with a TP. Also birdstrike wise, a turboprop offers more safety. Take one with a Raisbeck conversion and Proline 21.
From the passengers point, clearly the CJ2/2+. (although there are some pax, especially when tall, that like the squared cabin of the B200 better, because there is way more headroom)
Cabin is very very quiet and is big enough for four to be comfy and bearable with 6. The smaller CJ1 is okay for 4, but like a cattle transport with 6.

Fuelwise, the B200 and CJ2 will be roughly the same, flying time is though pretty different for your 400nm trip. Difference would be something like 30 minutes.

I love both birds, wish I´d fly them more often these days....

I was involved as a mx manager in the operation of a Premier 1 in 2006/07, and frankly, for what I´ve seen in mx issues I wouldn´t want one of these. (I´ve heard its becomming better, but...) As a pilot I can`t comment though.

[ra4000]

What about the new King Air 350i
or the Piaggio?

[con-pilot]

As Trim posted, if you have the budget, a Falcon 50EX. With only six passengers and fuel for only a 400 mile leg you will have astonishing short field takeoff performance.

[G-DAVE]

What about a big helicopter?

No landing or take-off distances to worry about:E

Where's me coat?:}

[Falconman]

Premier 1 would get my vote - unless the runway is wet.
But normally works well out of La Mole - especially if private.
Nice cabin, good speed can stop short if required.

[NuName]

50EX every time.

[CL300]

Any CRE available to do la môle training on the Premier ?

By the amount of CJ impounded there because having landed without the training, and have to be ferried out by a CRE/CRI; this should be considered..

LFTZ changed owner recently, but DGAC does not seem to be willing to change the rules.

As for choice of planes, R/C model have little margin; a Falcon 50 or a 7X ( both types being approved into LFTZ) are the types to go for...

The Piaggio is not an option, since with the noise abatment (1800 rpm approach), the runway is too short; and every airport in the south of France is looking for a way to get rid of it. ( they found some, it is under study with the DGAC legal department).

[Cap Loko]

We are operating the Kingair 350 and 350i regularly around LFTZ, to great passenger and pilot satisfaction.

[natops]

must agree on the 50ex

[NICOOOLDUDU]

Gentlemens,
You are looking for the BEST airplane in and out of la Môle?
Did you know that the 7X is certified for this airfield? Otherwise, yes, Falcon 50, or even Falcon 10.

[pascualito]

Thanks to all for your enlighted replies so far.

Could anyone shed more light on the differences in performance between the CJ1/1+ - CJ2/2+ and the P1A?

The later might be preferred because of the nicer cabin, but it will be no use if it is too limited in terms of max pax load compared to the CJ's...

Any info is much appreciated.

Cheers

[pascualito]

Ah, sorry,

Previous post is referring to perf in and out of LFTZ, of course.

Ciao

[tallinnman]

Is there any aircraft other than Falcon 50 that would be suitable for regular London - La Mole (4 pax) and a monthly London - New York (one stop and 2-4 pax). All private ops.

[jetopa]

I hear that the Gulfstreams have excellent runway performance, despite the fact that they can do without leading edge devices... If you shy away from the DA50 for cost reasons, then see what you can find out about a G450/550 etc. You'll be surprised.

[tallinnman]

Gulfstream out of the price range - thinking anything similar or slightly smaller than DA50.

[sky51]

For the kind of flights/costs you are requesting, I'm afraid the FA50 will be your only chance.
You may try to call La Mole airport to check what kind of aircrafts are approved.
I do fly to La Mole with a FA50B, and if you strictly comply with the performances you're limited to 2 pax in commercial ops....(that's the only way we use it)
You should check about private ops with a FA50B and FA50EX.
I guess the 7X is not an option for you......(too bad cause, if I'm right, it could fly non-stop to New-York from La Mole....)
The Falcon50 is also London-City approved ....

Jetopa said :"I hear that the Gulfstreams have excellent runway performance", I do not know where he heard that but I've never seen any Gulfstream at La Mole airport neither at London City (except for the G150, but is this really a Gulfstream ....?)

Good luck ...

Christophe.

[His dudeness]

Tallinnman, what about the Sovereign? I´d say its hard to find a better performer on the runway, takeoff, SEclimb and landing wise.

With 4 guys you´d be good for 2300-2400nm range...however playin it safe would be a second stop, say La Mole - Brest (555nm) - Gander (1950nm) - NY (955nm).

Or LFTZ-BIRK (1590nm)-NY (2266nm)

Or LFTZ-LPAZ (1491nm)-NY (2255nm)

[all great circle distances)

Possible TOW at 0 wind at for 3412ft TODA is

15° 30° 40°
29108 27897 26798
which leaves if the airplanes BOW is 18150lbs and 1000lbs payload

9958lbs 8747lbs 7648lbs of fuel available...

with 5 kts of hw its roughly 700lbs more

Max fuel is 11200lbs.

With the given weight for 40° you´d require a mission fuel for LFTZ-LPAZ of 6758 before reserves at ISA +10 and at a 50kts heaedwind in FL410. Flying at FL450 would see you at 6052lbs required before reserve.

At 30° you`d require 6822lbs at FL410 or 6160lbs at 450...
Thats tight but doable IMO. (all at max cruise btw)

Landing:
MLW 27100lbs.

at 15° LDR is 2649 ft, at 30° 2748ft, at 40° its 2813ft.

If you´d use a safety factor of 1,25 you´d be LDW limited at 30° to 26839lbs and at 40° to 25906lbs. That would mean a remaining fuel of (at 4 pax=1000lbs) of 6700+ pounds (at 40°). More than enough to go back to the cheaper fuel in London...you require roughly 5000-5500 including reserves to London at FL370, ISA +10 and 50kts HW.

[Level 400]

I used to operate the Premier 1 in there regularly!

It does the job perfectly so long as all the systems are working and you are not trying to depart heavy.

Level 400

[G-SPOTs Lost]

+1 for the Sovereign.

Its probably one of the narrowest cabins in the class but its runway performance just never gets old. Also the LaMole/Azores/NYC is doable privately. The aircraft is geared up for 180mins OEI and 1000 miles see here, theres not many twins in the mid size that feature this approval. Modern system design/ baggage fire protection/Long range O2 all help

Click Here for Sov 135 regs for certain routes (http://www.cessna.com/NewReleases/New/NewReleaseNum-1192303297745.html)

Early 2004-2005 680 probably 7-10 US$

[jetopa]

'I do not know where he heard that but I've never seen any Gulfstream at La Mole airport neither at London City (except for the G150, but is this really a Gulfstream ....?)'

Christophe, I am not the ultimate Gulfstream expert, but I (and many others in the business) know that their performance is quite impressive. And no, I was not talking about London City.

The title of this thread was 'The best aircraft in and out of La Môle' and pascualito wrote in his 1st statement that the budget was not the limiting factor.

If this is still true, I am still convinced that the DA50 (EX) is the optimum choice, then probably a Gulfstream, particularly when considering that pascualito was talking about 4 pax. The G4 should do fine as well and it's available for a reasonable price these days...

[No RYR for me]

If budget and also weather reliability is an issue (let's face it all operations are marginal at la Mole) then a chopper to Nice or Toulon is your best bet.. :(

[tallinnman]

Thanks for the replies - the requirement is for London to La Mole as one mission and London to NYC as a separate mission. There is no requirement to fly from La Mole to anywhere other than London.
An early Sovereign could be an option - any other aircraft suitable.

[Pace]

Tallinnman

Go for the Citation 5 it has the power to get off quickly and the best slow flying wing of the citation range.

Pace

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Go for the Citation 5 it has the power to get off quickly and the best slow flying wing of the citation range.


I disagree respectfully - Seen Vref of 92 knots on a 680 touching down at a little over 80, you've got 4 carbon brake packs from the Citation 750 and the Max land weight on the 680 is from memory 4000lbs less than the 750

Flown both - flown accurately and light the Sovereign can get stopped in a little over 350m and be wheels up (not 35ft) in a little over 450m.

I'm not a fanboy of the 680 lord knows it has its problems but to go a long way from short runways with modern avionics and a stand up cabin theres not much that can keep up - sure a 900 or F50 would be good but ones 20million US and the youngest F50 is probably knocking on 15 years old now - some owners just dont want to fly around in old equipment

[x933]

Not sure what the budget is as F50's are going for sub $5m for an old one to over $12m for a later aircraft, but how about the CL300, Hawker 900XP or - if you are prepared to wait for them coming on to the second hand market - Hawker 4000? All of them will should do New York with one stop. La Mole is marginal at the best of times - if you can afford a $5m jet then the €750 transfer to your own pad in St Tropez is small fry!

[tommoutrie]

Can any of you recommend an instructor who can sign off La Mole who will do it in a C525? Cannes Aero seem unwilling to do the check unless its in their DA 42 and I'm not sure how relevant it is. I'd rather do it in the 525 and work out the performance issues for us rather than just see how it works in a twin star. Anyway, my piston twin is expired. So how would that work anyway....

ggrrr....

[tommoutrie]

done now..

for interest, there were a couple of mustangs, 4 CJ's, an Avanti (which was a bit of a surprise) and a 500. I can't see how a much bigger span that that would be easily accomodated. Standing there and looking at it I would think an XLS would cope very well and its nice and docile to dodge the hills with. I can't imagine that runway performance would be an issue for it either. You need good visibility out of the cockpit to see the girls in the pool at the house you fly over..

[No RYR for me]

I can't see how a much bigger span that that would be easily accomodated.

Spotters alert, sorry :\

Crappy video but you will see a larger wing span taking off... :eek:

MBGnE8YE-Yg

[tommoutrie]

see,

absolute proof that I know f all

Tom