Some Positivity

[markc80]

Hi all,

I know that things are bad at the moment, globally across many industries and that aviation is particularly easily affected by economic fluctuations.

However, as someone who wants to train to be a pilot and believes that regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found, I can't let all the negative stories dissuade me from what I want to do.

Don't get me wrong, I know it's not going to be an easy ride, I may have to go several years before I am able to get a job.....nor not.

What I'd really like is a bit of balance - to hear some stories of people who've got jobs recently - how they've got them, what their take on things is. Flying is not just about getting into a 737/A320 - there are loads of other flying jobs out there and I just wondered what people can tell about those.

And to the naysayers: you've had your say, I know that I am entering an industry that's not what it once was, but I'm not a naive wannabee - just someone with a positive outlook and a hope that I'll get what for me, is a dream job:8

[bfisk]

If you ask people deliberately, to tell you only what you want to hear, you don't really need to ask, do you? :rolleyes:

[exeng]

Bfisk has a point really doesn't he.

However you state:regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found

Sorry to be a naysayer but at the moment if you want to fly as a pilot then with no experience there will not be work to be found - unless you have contacts who will help you find a position that would not necessarily be yours by ability and qualifications alone.

I can't let all the negative stories dissuade me from what I want to do.

Tread carefully on this. Perhaps those stories may persuade you to wait until the wheel has turned a little? It will turn despite all the naysayers - you just have to pick your time - get the time right and you win - get the time wrong and it will take you years to recover financially whilst never achieving your 'dream' - trust me when I say that for many a dream has turned into a nightmare.

Be very careful.


Regards
Exeng

[waco]

.............One born every minute. If you think its bad now, wait until next year. The whole of Europe is in dwang as deep as it has ever been since WW II and it is set to get much worse as every single European nation cuts back spending.

Why do people keep on thinking the are somehow better than everyone else and that they will be ok.

Don't do it !!!!

If you do, face a life time of financial ruin.

[Wirbelsturm]

Go fly a helicopter.

They're great fun, proper flying, difficult, expensive and, unless you have hours of experience no one is going to pay for you to fly them so, start saving.

Positive enough?

[Simon150]

responding to this from behind a computer somewhere in the south of Derby working on designing round noisy things....2 years after ME-IR/MCC, with 10 years of Aerospace Engineering Systems experience, Flying Instructor experience and over 400h TT

"regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found"

...no there isn't

[Torque Tonight]

I was going to write a factual and realist reply but as it's been said a million times before and as you have specifically said you don't wan't to hear it, I won't bother.

Pay your money, do your training, keep taking the disproportionate optimism pills and everything will work out just peachy. How's that for you.

A couple of points of fact:

there are loads of other flying jobs out there
Not with vacancies, there aren't.

regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found
No there isn't. Unless you're including McJobs, but then you could save yourself £70k and do that direct.

[Jumbo744]

hey

when i started my training in 2008, everybody was telling me I shouldn't, that there was no jobs and all. I struggled to get the finances, I had to work full time for months then do a part of my training, work again, come back for training. Result is, I will be done in less than 2 weeks. I have a job opportunity to fly a King Air in July, and last year I was selected as a cadet for an airline, but I refused their offer.

So it's all up to you. I too believe that there is always jobs to be found. You just have to pay attention to what is happening in the industry, make a maximum of contacts, and actively search for a job. Being pessimistic doesn't help.

What I always say to people hesitating to get into aviation is, if it is your passion, think of nothing else and just do it.

[Wirbelsturm]

Simply put there are jobs out there.

Sadly though mostly they are the ones where you will have to sell your house, your grandmother and your soul to get them if you are a newly minted pilot.

Wait a few years and try again, maybe, just maybe things will be different.

[RiggerParish]

I agree with Jumbo744!

Don't listen to the moaning, constistantly depressing views on here. If people actually listened to you guys about all the doom and gloom there would be no future!

Understand the financial risks and go for it... dont let the b*stards get you down. If you dont get it, who gives a damn, you've probably got less than 50 years to live anyway.

^
Hows that for pessimism PPRuNe!!!??? Am I an accepted member yet?

Pathetic! To categorically say there are no jobs to someone who wants in... Unbelievable, what qualifies you to say that? Do you actually know everything and everyone in aviation?

I think not. Wannabes... do not be deterred! If you want it understand/accept the risks and jump in with both feet flailing.

If nothing comes of it, accept that nothing in life is certain... please, just dont listen to the crap on here! I understand lots of it is good avice, guys... but way to go to put potential pilots off.

I guess its been so long since you've thought whimsically about aviation that you cannot understand how a wannabe feels.

[Wirbelsturm]

Go for it everyone,

Jobs for everyone, the airways are paved with gold and you will have a bigger bank account than the Maxwell family.

Managers will love you and you will only have to fly twice a month and a maximum of 150 hours a year if you condescend to work at all.

Now, back to the real world.

[Hcezmas]

I know it's tough keeping your chin up when it all looks very gloomy on the job front.

A lot of guys are moving, further up the food chain. This may not mean much for your average low hour pilot now, but it will do. Probably quicker than you might think.

Easy, Aer Lingus, Ryan, Flybe, BMI baby, Thomas Cook will all need pilots within the next 12 mths. Not a guess, but fact.

All have historically taken on low time pilots in the past. The only difference being the pool of experienced pilots waiting to get back in the system.
The jobs will be out there, how you go about getting your CV to the top is a whole different thread.

Good luck to all of you out there waiting on your break.

[philc1983]

Exactly,

Don't listen to anybody on here, that includes you then i suppose. :p

[kuryus]

Believe me it's not only the ppl who wants jobs in B737 and A320 that complain.
I've sent my CV to every job I saw (B737, A320 KingAir, even C204 and the likes) and still got no answer. The biggest problem for ppl with low hours is not knowing ppl in the right places. If I knew anyone in the right pplace of course I would have a job already.

Things ARE DIFFICULT at the moment for us, but if this is the dream of anyone... just go for it. It is wonderfull having the controls in your hands. It is addicting though... you'll spend the money you have and more...

Good luck

[Torque Tonight]

i found a job flying a kingair 6 to 8 days a month

Good luck servicing those loans!

I'm not going to labour the point because as the opening post demonstrates perfectly, people will only hear what the want to hear. There's a dividing line between realism and optimism - be careful where you draw it.

[Spit-Fire]

There are jobs out there, not as many as we'd all like but they are there. Rather than follow the route of the masses and post your CV off to all the same agencies, look around different ones, hang around airfields, if you have the time, and don't forget to talk to as many people as possible.

Remember to stay positive, enjoy life and laugh at 90% of the things that are written on here and you will be OK.

[flyhighspeed300]

You need to read or ook at OAA website. They tell you the story of whats really happening on the recruitment front. also if you look at 2009 they say they got 16 pilots into netjets. however they did not, because netjet cut 300 pilots and they are not flying for them currently.

OAA.com - Oxford Aviation Academy (http://www.oaa.com/pages/training_courses/ab_initio/employment_stats.php)

On the front of pilot jobs. I know one pilot who got a lucky break as an instructor to air south west this year on the q400. type rating was paid for him as well. I know an another instructor who is still an instructor but doing some aerial photography work on a pa31. another lucky break.

so not much....

[hollingworthp]

You need to read or ook at OAA website. They tell you the story of whats really happening on the recruitment front. also if you look at 2009 they say they got 16 pilots into netjets. however they did not, because netjet cut 300 pilots and they are not flying for them currently.

I wish you would talk to scheduling for me to tell them I shouldn't be flying - would make watching the footie that much easier.

[Deano777]

Honestly, some wannabes are deluded.

Jumbo744/RiggerParish

You really think that there are jobs out there ? You really think that by telling wannabes that they should go for it and remain positive then it'll all come out in the wash? So let me get this right, if every wannabe took your advice and trained then they'd all find jobs? In the good times when wannabes were being hired it was estimated that there were about 1200 - 1300 wannabes coming out of the sausage factories every year available for employment at any one time, now that there are "no jobs" do you really think there is a job for all those wannabes? Because essentially that is what you are saying.

If you think this is true then you are seriously deluded and anyone taking that advice needs locking up :ugh:

[RiggerParish]

I think I can be 100% certain that there is a job out there, yes. I dont know how you can all, with the same certainty, say that there are none.

But, hey... I musnt be as clued up as you!


if every wannabe took your advice and trained then they'd all find jobs?No, that would be foolish advice. If every wannabe understood the risks but still wanted to try for something they wanted... why not give them a little encouragement!

It just bothers me that because things are tough at the moment, that every single person who wants to get involed is told that it is impossible. Well, it is not impossible.

All I was saying was that if you have understood the risks and know that nothing is certain... and you still want to have a go... Go for it with all you got. I cant see how anyone could think that bad advice!

I think the greatest failure is to tell people all hope is lost, and lets face it... if this life wasnt a challenge, I would find more time to argue with people like you.

[lander66]

Deano777, when did they say there would be jobs for everyone? Jumbo744/RiggerParish have said the most useful things on this thread in my opinion. They didn't say go into it with your eyes closed and just hope for the best did they? Jumbo744 claims he has a job offer and turned a Cadet Course down, this would have to prove there are jobs? Also flighhighspeed300 had heard of jobs.

They way I see it wannabe's need an attitude somewhere between the rosy sales talk at flight training exhibitions and the severe negativity of PPRuNe.

anyone taking that advice needs locking up :ugh:

You can lock me up if you want but there may be a way to escape.

[Jumbo744]

lander66, thank you.

I think there is nothing more to add to what RiggerParish said.

I never said that there are jobs for everyone, but I think that if you get into aviation with the right mindset, you have a good chance. You need to be positive and realistic (as with everything in life).

It is also a matter of life philosophy. I am the kind of person that prefers to take the risk and try rather than stay at home and think "maybe i should have".

Deano777, it's like you are telling wanabees : "there is a chance you don't make it so don't try it's too dangerous!!", with this kind of attitude, why try anything in life?

[Jumbo744]

congrats on your Single IFR pilot job. I am finishing my IFR training and boy it must be exhausting to be single pilot IFR!

I really like those 2 last advices you wrote. I had made a list and they were in it. My list to succeed (well as i imagine it, as I have not succeeded yet lol):

- Stay Positive
- Be passionate
- Be aware of what is happening in the industry
- Get some aviation culture (airlines, their ceos, their routes, their fleet, differentiate between aircraft models, know your geography, etc...)
- Don't make ennemies
-Don't get cocky and arrogant because your instructor tells you you're good
- Always try to have a very professional attitude and image
- Be helpful to other students/pilots and don't mock them when they fail exams, flight tests
- Most importantly, make contacts and maintain them!!

- And again and again and again, enjoy your life and the time you spend in the air!!!

[G SXTY]

I've nothing against inspiring and encouraging people, but it's got to be done with at least one eye on the real world. Some of the 'encouragement' posted on this thread is more like self-delusion.

For starters, lines such as:

However, as someone who wants to train to be a pilot and believes that regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found, I can't let all the negative stories dissuade me from what I want to do.

or:

there are loads of other flying jobs out there and I just wondered what people can tell about those.

Are either grade 'A' wind-ups or staggeringly naive.

At the risk of being accused of negativity, you might like to pop down to my crew room. Of 20 cabin crew at my base, no less than 4 are CPL/IR holders who are unable to find flying jobs. You won't hear many success stories at the moment because there aren't many. My airline is a major recruiter of low-hours pilots, and the only people we have taken on in the last 18 months have been two courses of sponsored cadets who were already in the training system when the balloon went up. That's it, and that really is a fact. Compare that with requirement for 10-15 new FOs per month prior to the banking crisis and multiply those numbers across the industry. Then consider that the flying schools have been churning out hundreds more CPLs in that time, and you might start to appreciate the scale of the problem.

And as for:

Easy, Aer Lingus, Ryan, Flybe, BMI baby, Thomas Cook will all need pilots within the next 12 mths. Not a guess, but fact.

Oh really? I work for one of the above, and my best guess is that IF the economy improves, and IF no other airlines go bust, we MAY have a need for limited recruitment next winter. And those are two pretty big 'if's. If the economy goes the other way, I wouldn't be surprised to see any or all of the above laying people off at the end of the summer season. Then again, what would I know?

I note that some of the most 'negative' posts are from people with direct experience of working in this industry. What some of you see as negativity, others – including myself – see as a daily reality.

[hollingworthp]

Of 20 cabin crew at my base, no less than 4 are CPL/IR holders who are unable to find flying jobs.

Probably they don't WANT it enough :}

[Wirbelsturm]

Just to add a 'realistic' two penneth.

Many years ago I was working in the helicopter industry when a flood of mail arrived at the company from various sources almost 'begging' to fly the companies big shiny gas turbine powered helicopters. Helicopter licences being what they are are far more expensive and difficult to obtain than fixed wing licences hence the potential debt level for 'dedicated' students is higher.

The company, when faced with such a cheap revenue source consulted the CAA, found nothing illegal and accepted a bunch of Co-Pilots on scandalous terms and conditions. Not particularly surprising.

This led to 'normal' co-pilots getting sidelined, friction in the crew room between the various groups and an astronomical increase in work load for the Captains as we were continually flying with newly rotated 'fresh outta the box' co-pilots. As you have never flown in the commercial environment I would not expect you to realise how difficulty it is to negotiate pay increases in those conditions. Suffice to say the T's & C's within the company crashed.

I left and joined an airline. Now I see the same thing happening here. The world of the helo has started to pick up as companies recognise the benefit of experience and loyalty. The airline industry has yet to see that. Hopefully the Colgan Air disaster will highlight some of the pressures that Junior CREWS (yes Captain and Co-Pilot) have to live with but it will be years before any benefit is felt in the industry.

Where does this leave Wannabees?

Two problems. There are no jobs at the moment. The airline I work for has tentatively hinted at possible recruitment of 150 at the end of 2011. They will need to be experienced type rated direct entry pilots. Lowest training cost/risk possible. After that? The company has no plans as expansion has been put on hold again against the spectre of a double dip recession.

The other problem is the abject animosity against pay-2-fly within the industry. Something that BALPA need to and I believe now are getting a grip on. Irrespective of your motives for taking that route there are many within the industry who see it a slavery and that the person with the best potential doesn't get through but the person with the deepest pockets.

Having a realistic outlook on the industry is essential. None of my friends and colleagues who work for various big companies around the world see a pickup in recruitment. Orders for aircraft may be in but those aircraft will dribble online over the next 20 years. The industry is under attack from the green lobby, the tax man and Governments who have ill thought out transport policies.

So, enjoy your IR. Try and refrain from posting 'everything rosy, go for it with all your heart if that your lifes dream, everyone else doesn't understand' posts. The industry from the ground up is dire at the moment. Hopefully in a couple of years it will pick up again, no one knows. But always remember that most major airlines have gone bust in the 18 months FOLLOWING a recession.

And again and again and again, enjoy your life and the time you spend in the air!!!

This shows your slightly naieve outlook! When you have been doing the job for 25+ years you will find you have great days and awful days. For example, prior to the ILS being fitted to both ends of Sofia's bumpy old runway (now a taxiway thankfully) the night non precision approach was atrocious. After the first attempt which had to be thrown away due to GPWS proximity warning on the 7500' mountain to the south of the city the second attempt was rougher than a dockers chat up line. Certainly not an enjoyable experience but I was being paid to do it.

[fly_antonov]

I like the Nike slogan: "Just Do It!".

To OP: If that is your dream and you are ready to do it no matter what it takes, you must follow your destiny. I wish you good luck.

[Deano777]

Rigger & Jumbo

I read that you didn't actually say there were jobs for everyone but if you take your post in context, and then understand completely that you are spouting on a forum of desperate wannabes then you have a wide audience, this wide audience as I said before could, and maybe does equate to 1200 - 1300 fATPL wannabes at any one time, and that is just the UK, if each and every one of those plus the people who are looking to train to keep that figure alive start training because you are giving crap advice then there is going to be a hell of alot of disappointed and broke people out there. Even in the height of recruitment it is estimated that only 200-300 brand new wannabes obtain employment per year. This leaves alot of people who will never gain employment.
You can stay as positive as you like.
You can network as much as you like.
You can be as passionate about the industry as you like.
You can be as clued up about the industry as you like.
You can be as professional as you like.
You can be as helpful as you like.
If there are no jobs, then there are no jobs, if there are only a few jobs, then there are only a few jobs. This won't change, so if, and I say if all the wannabes did this then there will still be alot of very, very disappointed and broke people out there.
Also what alot of wannabes fail to understand is that your 150hr/200hr CVs are almost all identical, if they were to put them all on a wall and throw darts in 20 of them (or most of them) they would all be the same. Nothing distinguishes one person's CV from the other, and this is generally why alot of people do not obtain jobs. In an interview do you think sitting opposite a chief pilot who has thousands of jet/turbo prop hours is going to be impressed with your "30hrs" twin MEP time? He's not going to give a monkey's dollop, do you think he'll be impressed with your 200hrs total time including the said 30hrs MEP and 20hrs IFR sim time? He's not going to give a monkey's dollop. Herein lies alot of the problem, but if there are little or no jobs, then there are little or no jobs.
Another thing you read on here is alot of people advising people to "follow your dream", "if you want it hard enough it'll happen". That's the biggest load of horse manure I've ever heard, it won't happen just because you "want it".

Now you have, whether you meant it in the context or not, advised all wannabes to go for it, work hard and understand the "implications", that's fine, but can you not see how many disappionted people there will be? When I got hired it was in the height of the recruitment boom, now all the people I had networked, studied and trained with, which was about 45 or so people, only 6 of us got jobs. Does that not tell you a story?
I am not being negative, I am being realistic, as are the majority of "negative" people on here, yet you construe that as bad advice, thats fine and that's what these forums are all about. To me though, telling the masses it's ok to train as there are "jobs" out there is a little deluded.

D777

[AndoniP]

there are loads of other flying jobs out there and I just wondered what people can tell about those

maybe what he meant by this was loads of other TYPES of flying jobs out there, and wanted to hear from anyone that had found work in a non-airline role?

not every wannabe is looking to fly a 737/a320... :hmm:

[clanger32]

Not a lot to add, save that people do often - for some reason - think that those who went before "just didn't work hard enough at it" and that they can therefore succeed where others have failed (or are still trying) by "working a bit harder".

To provide some form of context, on my course, the class JAA ATPL average was 95% across the 14 exams. Can you do much better than that? I doubt many people can, but even if you can score 96/97/98 or even better % - does that substantially differentiate you? No. Many of our course got first time or first series passes in both CPL and the IR. Can you do better than that? No.

The truth is there just are not [many] jobs around at the moment and there's 20 of us chasing every single one that DOES get out. The ONLY way to get a job really at the mo, is to know the person who is hiring.

A lot of people wibble on about the fact that there ARE other types of flying jobs out there ...but the truth is - and welcome to reality here guys - that unless you are very very wealthy, you need to work to live and the kind of salary these jobs pay is so small as to make the job virtually impossible to take. And that's if you have no debt. If you do have debt, forget it, because you'll be living in a cardboard box and unsafe to fly within weeks.

I'm not kidding you - I'm one of the lucky ones, In that I had a very good career to fall back on. 18 months later and I'm still flying a desk, but at least I still have my house and no debt. You need oodles and oodles of timing and luck to get on in this game as WELL as the other factors such as desire. Do NOT underestimate that. Or if you do, make sure you very well understand the lifelong implications of financial meltdown.

It IS a dream and I would generally encourage people to go for it (PPRuNe IS very negative) but do not underestimate just HOW lucky you're going to have to be to get a job in the current market, competing against HUNDREDs of others in the same boat. Advice by the likes of G-SXTY here is invaluable - heed their words, because they know of what they speak.

[ollywood]

Hi all,
I find it quite interesting amongst all of the doom and gloom on these forums that people often speak of these 'very few' airline jobs that are out there, obviously there must be some low hour cadet pilots that were fortunate enough to be selected so i wonder what it is about them that distinguishes them from others and allowed them to get the job? As said previously most of the CVs sent in are the same, so why was that 1 guy out of however many selected??
As a 'deluded' wannabee myself, i would love hear off any cadet pilots who managed to get a job fairly soon after training as there is evidence that it has happened in a few cases and i am simply wondering why I cant be one of them myself as i so often read.
Cheers

[A320rider]

I know 1 guy, hired by monarch airline 5 years ago with 200h.
well, a guy told me,...

all you hear, it' s only rumors from someone who knows someone who know someone,...!
I don't believe in rumors...

[Deano777]

ollywood

You're right, there are quite a few who have jobs, because they are prepared to enroll on these wonderful, lovely P2F schemes that are becoming the bane of the industry, unfortunately a fair few years ago paying for your own type rating was becoming the industry entry standard, now it is these ghastly schemes.

[Tampicotb9]

What about Ryanair, there you only pay for your typerating, do you also clasify that as a "ghastly scheme"?

[andrew152]

I have been training for the last year and within the last 8 months there has been 6 people from my flying club that have been successful in gaining employment as an F/O within a UK airline and only one of those has been to ryanair...however it is all down to who you/they know! So the lesson I have taken from that is start making friends.

oh and none of them are on 'pay to fly'

[Jwscud]

I think some of the criticism here is a bit unjustified - a lot of it's based on the idea that those searching for advice or positive information on jobs are starry-eyed types who've mortgaged their parents' home to get through Oxford or CTC. The same criticisms don't necessarily apply to those who are completing their training without going into debt and with solid alternative employment. The two low hour types I know personally who have got jet jobs both got them through hanging around bars and talking to crew at smaller airports/airfields.


As a declaration of interest, I'm one of those fools soldiering through the pipeline at the moment, though without a penny of debt and at a pace liable to have me finish in 2012. If I don't manage to get a job, I have a solid career I can continue in and the skills learned will stand me in good stead. All I will have lost is cash I would probably have blown on high living anyway, there being more chance of walking into the RHS at BA on 200h than there is of being able to afford a mortgage in this country!

[Deano777]

What about Ryanair, there you only pay for your typerating, do you also clasify that as a "ghastly scheme"?

You only pay for your rating? Are you sure about that? Maybe a bit more research might no go amiss, and yes that is exactly what I mean by ghastly schemes.

D777

p.s. This is not a Ryanair bashing thread, so lets stick to the topic.

[lander66]

Just thought I would point out that the topic is about people with low hours who recently managed to get a job. Genuine, useful replies are getting lost in the usual batch of negativity and then being criticised afterwards because they are "one-offs" and are not realistic enough to pin your hopes on.

[Desk-pilot]

My best wishes go to anyone following their dream, but make no mistake this is a very hard career indeed to get into. IN many ways I would liken it to being an actor or musician, many people want to do it, few make it. Unlike acting, music etc it is highly cyclical though and timing really is crucial. If you Graduate in a boom you have a far better chance of getting a job than if you hit a trough.

I fly for the same airline as G-SXTY, I can tell you that we are madly busy at present because the company doesn't want to hire anyone in the Summer and have to lay them off in Winter. There is no recruitment on the horizon being talked about here yet but for sure that will change, the big question is when. Personally I certainly wouldn't start training until the green shoots are showing.

My big fear at present is that the new UK Government is planning to cut spending significantly and as flying is a discretionary purchase I am very worried that this may negatively impact things. I really do wish Labour were still in and from a recruitment point of view so should you because they might have averted a double dip recession at the price of a higher national debt.

Desk-pilot

[Jumbo744]

wow

well, what else to say. Everyone has its experience and opinion I guess.

As someone above was saying, not every wannabee thinks about flying a A320 or B737 at the end of his training. That's being naive. I've been searching for jobs that would allow me to fly c206s, maybe Caravans at best, in all parts of the world. I never thought I would be starting on a King Air! If it doesn't work out, I have a plan B, and a plan C.

You won't get a job by just sending a CV, that's for sure. All my friends that have got a job went directly to the company's office talk to the recruiters, or got to know pilots by walking to them on the apron and start chatting with them.

Bottom line is, decision is up to you: follow your heart and start the training, hope for the best but be ready to accept all the possible negative consequences, or, listen to other people's opinions that advise you not to start the training and maybe regret it badly one day.

Personally, I'd prefer to regret for MY actions than for having followed other people's advices.

Good luck!

[hollingworthp]

Personally, I'd prefer to regret for MY actions than for having followed other people's advices.

I advise that you don't put your soft dangly bits into some hot hair straighteners - but then it is is better to regret your own actions rather than taking advice aimed at protecting you from lots of pain.

Or more topical, you are becoming fuel critical in the hold over your destination and the last 10 approaches went around due to windshear. Your FO wants to divert but you are better than all those other guys who failed and you will nail a greaser landing ...

If you are gambling nobody elses hard earned money / capital / home then fair enough although that would put you in the minority.

[Deano777]

londoncalling2009

One would also assume you had your type rating paid for and you didn't have to fork out for it yourself? One is assuming you gained employment in the UK and didn't have to travel to far reaching corners of the globe?

[170to5]

No-one appears to have pointed out yet that:

Emirates have announced significant PLANNED recruitment in the next year, along with continued recruitment by Qatar and Etihad, as one would expect. There is also plenty of work out in the far east, usually looking just for captains there though.

Some Ab-initio pilots may get lucky and get a job, I believe that some (some as in a very, very lucky few) recently got taken in by one of these airlines as F/O's.

HOWEVER...

I suspect that the percentage of guys coming out of schools at the moment, and those who are getting these respectable, actual jobs is way, way lower than 5%. If you were going to do a bungee jump and someone told you that there was a 5% chance that you'd be okay, that the rope wasn't too long and that it wouldn't snap, would you be stupid enough to reason that 'well, I might be one of that 5%'??!!

Paid TR jobs even dried up a while ago; P2F, which we all have an opinion on, will get you what 150 to 500 hours - I've heard some people say that 'well, a TR and 150 hours is better than nothing'...no, it isn't sadly. It's as good as nothing usually, and in the current climate of unemployed crews who have thousands of hours, and there are plenty of those poor buggers, it's still a disadvantage to turn up to an interview (not sure if any of them are going on) and explaining to the training captain sat in front of you that you paid a very significant sum to try and jump the queue.

So I would say to people (and please listen to what was said before - only the people who are IN AN AIRLINE AND THEREFORE KNOW BEST THE SCORE are pessimistic, whereas newbies with a very limited idea of what is actually going on [save for when they hear rousing talks from school presentations or rumours of someone from their school getting into the RHS of a shiny whizz jet] seem to be dangerously gung-ho - yes, those of you who disagree are probably being pretty damn gung ho with £50,000+) is that there ARE jobs out there, in fact there are quite a few. But to get one, and a lot of them at the moment are for command only, you'll need:

- In excess of 500hr on type, current
- AT LEAST 1500hr, or often 2000hr TT (I just looked, Emirates are looking for 4000TT minimum)
- A CURRENT rating on type or similar (ie 737 or A320, 747 or A340)

And this recruitment will produce a shortage where people vacate jobs to go to the sand box. These jobs will then be taken up by those poor sods who have been made redundant form their old job, have been living off the dole and who have many, many more hours than newbies - newbies who will have to wait a long, long time to get to the front of the queue. Or at least close enough to it for their CV to be looked at, before the reviewer asks how an ab-initio's CV got so far up the pile...

Don't be stupid, and don't be naive. Listen to what the people who are actually working have to say, we know as much as anyone is going to know about recruitment, and it's a very, very barren landscape out there. To put so much on the line for the chance that you might get lucky is incredibly foolish.

[Deano777]

170to5

Well said that man (or woman).

[G SXTY]

I totally agree. Determination, positivity, boundless optimism – call it what you will – simply isn't enough at the moment. Without significant airline experience on your CV, the numbers are very much against you.

If it's any consolation, eventually the market will improve again. This thread is very similar to many that were running in 2002-2003, during the industry trough that followed 9/11. If you care to dig out some of those old threads, you'll find some familiar names, such as yours truly, Redsnail, Mad Jock and CATIIIC Autoland, who were all wannabes back then. I started one myself in early 2003, when I was stuck out in Florida, bleeding cash and unable to fly because one of the leading FTOs had just been shut down by the state authorities. Or there's another thread with a particularly heated discussion involving Hamrah (DFO of Astraeus for those who don't know) justifying self-sponsored type ratings as a consequence of the market conditions.

Back then, a lot of things didn't seem right or fair to us, and there wasn't much cause for optimism. But we stuck at it, (and in my case delayed CPL/IR training until the market was much improved) and eventually many of us got jobs. Not everyone, I grant you. I personally know some people who were wannabes back then, and still are now, and others who decided for whatever reason that it wasn't for them, and walked away.

The point – and I'll keep making it until I'm blue in the face – is that while determination and optimism are prerequisites for life as a wannabe, they are nothing without a healthy job market. Timing really is everything. Honestly.

Judging by the number of PMs I get asking me if now is a good time to start training with Oxford, PTC, FTE etc, that message is still not getting through to some people.

[A320rider]

look guys,

it takes 2 years to make a commercial license.
when this aviation market will pick up, and if some airlines are interested in you(if you do your CPL, we may interview you). start for your training.
you don't need to rush, you don't know when this market will pick up for 200h pilots...maybe in 3 years, maybe in 5, or 7...I think 7.
I have as well some 9/11 experience when there was no job at all during 2002-2003.market picked slowly after 2004, and good in 2006.(5 years later)

I can tell you than spending money now, will only bring more frustration. Looking for something else, and saving money for these next 3 years is much much better for now.

if you follow what I say you, you will be a happy pilot in 5 years.:ok:

[pilotpete711]

My 18 cents (2 cents adjusted for recent inflation)...

Furloughed regional FO here, been furloughed for over 1 year now. I've got over 1000 TT and can't get an interview anywhere... not even to fly a Cessna.

Have a nice day! :)

[Arabian Mustang]

Ok. I changed job 3 times since 2008.:} But, my jobs have always been in some of the most interesting places in the planet.:suspect:

[mad_jock]

BTW I have just turned down a self financed TR 737 job for tatical reasons.

1. the pay was crap
2. most TP company's won't look at you with jet time (although LHS is slightly different but it would need to be on a type I already have. It would cut me off from new TP types)
3. I suspect alot of these small 737 operators are going to go tits up in the next 2 years.
4. There hundreds if not thousands of 737 rated pilots out of work with way more time under there belts than I have.
5. I reckon the expansion will be in the turboprop side of things purely because of the economics of running the things.

eg Q400 is in the region of $2000 an hour and an emb195 $3000 for 11 extra seats. And the difference in time on a 1:30hour sector is less than 10 mins.

O aye and I am to tight to pay for a type rating. I haven't payed for one yet and I don't intend to start any time soon. Although if a 757 or 747 came up I think I proberly would purely because it ticks quite a few boxes and I have always wanted to fly them.

[Spendid Cruiser]

Personally I don't agree with mad_jocks numbers or conclusions. Medium jets have a significant economic advantage of heavy TPs for most routes. If one wants to generate the most future airline opportunities then a medium jet should be a goal.

There may or may not be a lot of 737 guys out of work, there is certainly a fair amount of demand for people with a at least 2,000 medium jet hours around the world.

The big problem is how to get that experience. There aren't many opportunities in Europe for 200hr guys. There are one or two in Asia from time to time and there will be more. Virtually nothing in the Middle East.

So there are opportunities, but the market is stratospherically competitive. To be sure of getting a job with no significant airline hours you are going to have to be an outstanding candidate. That's isn't going to change for a long time.

[mad_jock]

You should maybe send a email to flybe and explain why they are going wrong.

[goaround737]

I know three guys that have just finished cpl/irs and got jobs (albeit not particularly glamourous ones, but flying nonetheless)

I believe part of the problem is the endless line goons who finish training, sit on their @rses for 3 months then send of 20 cvs to the majors and believe that this constitutes 'job-hunting'. I even met one guy doing his IR renewal, he hadnt flown, worked in ANY capacity, or sent off a single job application in the year since passing his IR skills test. He just pissed around sponging off his parents $$. These, invariably are the types that land up on the door step of Eagle Jet and the likes, whereby spunking 30k on a job is an easier option than the more traditional method of finding work.

Im not for one minute suggesting its a cake walk finding a job but im really starting to wonder if its half as bad as people on here make out?? Time will tell...

[Spendid Cruiser]

mj, I had a chat with George a while back, hence their business model of exploiting lower capacity routes. But I don't like to blow my own trumpet :E

[markc80]

First off, well done to all those who did stick at it (G-SXTY et al included). I am not as naive as my original post might have suggested: I do know that starting to train now or in the next year or so is the wrong thing to do, and when I do start doing this I'd be financing it myself, without getting in to debt, and I also have a good fallback career plan.

By saying that there are loads of flying jobs around I simply meant that not everyone's goal should be to be in the RHS of a 737/A320 filled with Johnny Tourist & Co. There's more variety than this. I should have rephrased that as I wanted to know about people who'd got jobs doing other flying work.

I know that there's not and won't be a lot of work, I do not think that magically I'll be one of those who goes against the tide and walks straight in to a job and so I am going in to this with my eyes open.

There's no question that it's hard, but if Redsnail MadJock etc got thru the same trough then I think it's fair enough to think that I will have at least a BETTER/SOME chance of getting a job in a few years' time.

I'm not relying on boundless optimism. Sorry if it came across like that: I am sickened that an industry that has such revered safety standards is allowing some people to buy their way in to being responsible for hundreds of people's lives. Unfortunately it may be time and loss of lives that rectifies this - a few massive insurance payouts and the bean counters will have to rethink things. Thanks for the smart-alec replies about me only wanting to hear what suits me (wouldn't be PPRunNe otherwise): all I said was that I've read a lot of negativity, but wanted - by posting a message, openly inviting people - to hear if there were any positive stories.

I know there are some wannabes that haven't considered the implications of what they're getting in to. Just so you know, I have and I did so again reading thru all the messages in this thread from those who are on the inside. Though I won't deny that because this is my passion, there's an element of risk I've chosen to ignore. We all take risks.

For now, having missed out on a GAPAN scholarship, I am just slowly saving, watching and waiting, but have still got this as my chosen career. I'll keep studying privately and when the time's right, I'll make the move and go to a flight school, apply for a cadet scheme or maybe make a proposition to an airline.

Oh and thanks again to the few that replied with some positive stories: keeps people like me going.:D

[Torque Tonight]

When I posted my response I knew you wouldn't like it. The reason you for the reaction that you received is, as you have pretty much just acknowledged, that your opening post did come across as a little daft and naive. Those of us who have been through the mill recently will tell you that positivity doesn't get you very far and that there is little to smile about in the current jobs market. It seems that I was not alone in thinking that a little reality check was called for.

I fairly bluntly stamped on two of your statements, not just out of petulance but because I genuinely disagree with them:

there are loads of other flying jobs out there
When I started job hunting about 24 to 18 months ago I did so with a pretty strong CV, a golden report from a well respected flying school and a four-figure number of hours of professional (military) flying behind me. I would humbly suggest I was in a stronger position than your average flying school graduate. I was aiming for big name airlines but prepared to undertake ANY sort of flying at all. To put it briefly, when I couldn't even get a gig as an unpaid glider tug pilot because they already had about 20 people on the waiting list, that's when I became fairly certain that there aren't 'loads of other flying jobs out there'.

regardless of your industry, profession or state of the economy there is always work to be found
Several mates with years of airline experience have been made redundant in the last year and plenty more are living in fear. When the number of pilot jobs in existance is reduced to less than the number of pilots then no, there is not always work to be found (unless you go outside the aviation industry but you didn't pay for your licences just to flip burgers did you).

So what happened? In the best part of a year of jobhunting I had three options. Two were not really viable for various reasons and the third was the well-known 'evil' airline that causes about 95% of pprune bandwidth to be wasted on flame wars. I considered my prospects, thought about it long and hard and decided to go with the deal. I am now well settled in to the new job, very content, and I am satisfied that I made the correct decision for my individual case. I do not want this thread to drift into the standard old dick-fight but I will say this: If as an ex-RAF pilot I had to stump up the Euros, how far will positivity alone get you as a 200hr fresh faced wannabe? Not very far I would suggest. Sorry to p1ss on your barbeque, but the reality has been bleak for some time and will be for a while longer.

I am sickened that an industry that has such revered safety standards is allowing some people to buy their way in to being responsible for hundreds of people's lives. Unfortunately it may be time and loss of lives that rectifies this
Sorry fella, but you need to open your eyes to the fact that the jobs market is probably bleaker than your bottom-end predictions. You cannot buy a job. The operator that you are clearly referring to has sufficent applicants, every one with a fist full of Euros, to be able to pick and choose. The standard is very high and the vast majority of those who are ready, willing and able to pay, get turned away. Those who attempt the real P2F schemes (private, speculative type ratings and line training with no job attached) will find themselves significantly poorer, unemployed and with nowhere else to go once their paid training is complete.

Despite what it looks like to someone on your side of the fence you cannot buy a job and the market is worse than you think, I guarantee it. Just now there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, but it's a very long tunnel. Good luck though... and keep positive!:ok:

[Denti]

As i said above, it seems the UK is still in a worse shape than the rest of europe. Over here in the german speaking countries we have quite a few airlines starting to hire again. Germanwings, Cityline, Air Berlin, Fly Niki, LGW, Aerologic etc. Not to mention that in other areas like for example turkey hiring is still pretty strong. However, you might have to learn a secondary language, as the rest of the world does anyway. Most of the airlines however use pretty heavy aptitude testing as they have more than enough CVs in their database, pass rates of down to 1% are very possible, however they do hire 200 hour pilots and some of them pay typeratings as well, we took on around 120 low hour pilots this year alone with slow hiring continuing throughout the year.

[waco]

......just wait while the effect of the failing Euro is really felt........

If you think things are bad now, just wait until 2011 !!!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Mark C, don't listen to Torque 2n et al, they are just all gloom mongers.

Pop down to your local flying club and talk to one of the instructors. Within a month you will have a PPL costing about £2k. Immediately start your hour building and night rating while studying the ATPL theory, £6k should see you through that and take about a month. Next is the hard bit but I found it quite easy the CPL, multi IR. Costs about £5k and another 2 weeks total should do it, then straight into the MCC (£500+ 3days).

Blue book in hand you now do the type rating (paid for by the company, 10days) followed by the line training and 6 landings (4 days), then its off to head office for the uniform and away you go. All in all if you really want to fly a jet it's about £12k and 3months. Now what is difficlt about that? As I say don't listen to all these doom and gloom mongers, they just don't know what they are talking about. (And P.S. don't forget the huge salary and all the paid holidays you get).

[markc80]

PPL for £2k?

Right. Let's leave it there.

[jidder]

PPL 2k .....don't exaggerate! 2.5k including the landing fees :}

[goaround737]

Exactly, what a load of horse sh*t. You've left out the CAA licence issue/test fees!! I hear they will do the lot for £20!

[kuryus]

I didn't know this thread was supposed to be so funny.
From scratch to hero (ready to fly the Jet plane) for about £12k, ahahahahaha.
Even £20k would be a huge laugh, imagine £12k.
And 3 months to do all... right, now everybody is superman to learn everything this fast. Ahhh and of course UK CAA would be always ready for your flight tests at your will. You say when and they respond certainly.

Best comment ever: "All in all if you really want to fly a jet it's about £12k and 3months"
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[wangus]

The deal clincher.......some schools even throw in FREE tea bags and coffee. You must provide your own milk though. If you can find your cup. And go for a piss against a portocabin.

[kuryus]

Exactly... if they don't have coffee how would you be awake 24/7 :sad: in order to do all that so fast.
No coffee... choose another school. :}

[170to5]

Guys I'm not sure that MichaelOlearyGenius was being entirely serious there, I sense a certain level of sarcasm:

don't forget the huge salary and all the paid holidays you get

that, and his name, of course...