Awareness

[ghostnav]

I saw this today in the Sunday Telegraph - “There will be major change,” Mr Fox said. “This is the review that has to kiss goodbye to the cold war. That will require us to be quite tough. Every single thing must be justified.”

Is it me or did the SDR in 1998 not do that? We are over 20 years down the road from the Cold War. The Tories left power in 1997 - and??

[Future Hunter]

I think the fact that the UK is still pressing on with the massive herd of white elephants that is the Typhoon is a legacy of the Cold War. It seems the problem of the time was that between 1992 and 2001, we didn't really have an enemy per se - no armies standing toe to toe flexing muscles.

Because of this doldrum, the UK kinda just pottered on with what it knew - big, modern armies involved in conventional then NBC (as it was then) warfare - having to destroy each other on a strategic as well as tactical level.

But now, it seems all we need to win the war are more chinnys than you can shake a stick at and the armoured brigades have yet to have a go in the Land of Sand. The fact we have a mass of tanks still in Germany, low-level 'supersonic' attack aircraft is the hangover of the cold war and we can't just trade everything in for snatch landrovers and support helicopters.

Labour have never really been one for defence spending. Nobody could have predicted the events of 11 Sep 2001 (unless you believe the conspiracy theories) and the way we would ned to go back to expeditionary warfare.
Personally, I think the UK should start thinking a bit more big picture rather than Afghanistan. We need to put more resources into maritime forces for the UK (more River Class perhaps and certainly more MRA4 aircraft!) and invest for expeditionary warfare and looking after the troops.


End of rant. I feel better!

[The B Word]

Future Hunter

Well said.

The problem with binning Typhoon is that to fire up a similar capability takes about 3-5 years - the question is, would we get that amount of notice?

The B Word

[Future Hunter]

I agree entirely The B Word!

If only we had a platform that could do the job of both air defence and ground attack, rather than just perform at airshows and crew that mince around the base with an ill-deserved air of accomplishment... I'm not keen in Typhoon.

It's all well and good sitting here saying 'Oh, we should have bought this platform with that capability...', but who knows what threat we're going to have to contend with?
Some kind of Scandinavian Alliance could attempt to take the Orkneys/Shetlands for oil and minerals so we'd need air defence, low level jets and submarine patrols gain. Or a certain South American country could attempt to have a go and finding some newly discovered oil right on it's doorstep...

[The B Word]

I agree again.

Typhoon is expensive, but we have a company at Warton and 2 successive Governments to thank for that. We could buy off of the shelf to save money - almost 3 for the price of 2 on most options. Multi-role is definately the way ahead, and that also added extra expense to Typhoon.

But I do think that the "mincing" and "Airshow" comments are a little harsh (unless they're just banter?!). You can't take away their accomplishment, getting to fly FJs is a long a difficult process (3-4yrs from start to award of Combat Ready). Plus, just because the platform is not particularly relevant in Afg at present (considering Gen Stanley McChrsytal's directive of proportionality and low collateral), then it is hardly their fault that they are not deployed.

BTW, Typhoons are guarding the oil reserves 24/7 in the South Atlantic and around the Orkneys right now. I read an interesting short story the other day on AlQaeda attacking the West's oil reserves by flying aircraft into oil rigs - all a bit alarmist and Tom Clancy, but then again, who knows???

The B Word

[Wrathmonk]

Sadly, and not wishing to fall for a 'wah', it's a bit late to bin Typhoon. Cancellation payments will cost as much, if not more, than buying them. If you want to save cash you've got to look at future programs and only the SDSR will (should!) be able to do that.

Talking of finally getting rid of assets used in the Cold War reminded me of watching the Trooping of The Colour last night .... when were horses and horse towed artillery last used on operations....? Whats more expensive - the Red Arrows or stabling / food etc for all the Kings/Queen horses... (because there seemed to be a lot of the latter crapping on Horseguards yesterday!)?:E

[Future Hunter]

F3 had been guarding the Falkalnds prior to that - so it's just an upgrade of aircraft really. Interestingly, the RAF have been toying with the idea of 2 seat Typhoons - as the F3 benefits from an extra pair of eyes and someone else to double check and operate systems while the driver points the thing around the sky.

We should be looking more into multi-role platforms. Personally, I think the MRA4 should go into theatre as soon as it's ready. The long-term intelligence it can offer on station will be invaluable to troops on the ground. Not to mention it can carry every weapon in the RAF arsenal, as well as perform nearly 3/4 of the RAF's tasks. A Nimrod at FLNoseBleed over Afghanistan with a bomb bay full of paveways and a designator could provide Combat ISTAR - intelligence and CAS; staying on task for over 6 hours with ease.

Just inter-fleet banter, playing devils advocate etc!

[gashman]

Your 2-seat Typhoon comment should hopefully demonstrate that you know nothing of the jet, the people who support it, or the job(s) done by the few who are connected to it.

If you had a bit more knowledge, you'd know why the aeroplane is not in Afghanistan, how hard the people involved work on doing their jobs (just the same as everyone else in the Forces), and why the Jag and F3 needed replacing.

As for the idea that the RAF is considering getting more 2-seaters to do the job, it is not going to be too long before we see an all single-seat OCU as the 2-seaters run out of flying hours.

So there.

[Lima Juliet]

The last rumour that I heard about MRA4 is that it might not even carry a sonobuoy for a bit, let alone "every weapon in the RAF arsenal" :ugh:

The use of MR2 to do less than 30% of what an MQ-9 Reaper can probably cost the lives of 14 good people. Also, the EO/IR turret fitted to MRA4 is less capable than the one on MR2 (because it was asked for in 1997!). See link Northrop Grumman Night Hunter Electro-Optical Surveillance and Detection System (EOSDS) / Night Hunter II (United States) - Jane's Electro-Optic Systems (http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Electro-Optic-Systems/Northrop-Grumman-Night-Hunter-Electro-Optical-Surveillance-and-Detection-System-EOSDS--Night-Hunter-II-United-States.html)

The apeture of Night Hunter is 11 inches, MR2 had the MX15 which is 15 inches and Reaper has MTS-B, which, according to Raytheon's website, is 22 inches. Simple comparison of apetures would show that MRA 4 would need an upgrade to offer anything of value in Afghanistan.

The weapons release trials would cost millions and then there's the cost of flying such a large aircraft over Afghanistan. Sorry mate, but MRA 4 over Afghanstan is a "barking" idea (IMHO)!!

6hrs of "on call" CAS - try 12-14hrs and then you're in business (or just use Reaper).

Finally, 2 seat Typhoon has even less internal fuel. So I very much doubt if the RAF are looking at 2 seat ops.

LJ :p

[AdanaKebab]

We need the MRA4's for the EU NAV FOR Somali anti-piracy op. Someone's missing out on a nice little trip to the Seychelles!:{

[Future Hunter]

OK Gashman, calm down!

1. I didn't say the RAF are doing it - but if you claim to know so much you've probably heard about the various incidences that have occurred that may justify another crew member (such as the guy who was doing some emergency drill and ended up about 20 miles downwind!)

2. My understanding is the aircraft is not in Afghanistan because there is a software interface issue with the Paveway system and the aircraft and does not have a RTS for ground attack. It is doing it's bit in the UK and the Falklands, usually more than they're given credit for.

3. I really don't know where that came from! But there's a reason why the Phantom and Tornado ADV had a Nav in the back. And I know it sounds simplistic - but all aircraft run out of flying hours. Even the single seat aircraft. I know. I'm sorry.
Is it your bedtime yet?

Leon - I agree that the kit on the MRA4 *AT THE MOMENT* is less than ideal and at 1996/7 spec - but once in service, is likely to be upgraded. The aircraft is incredibly capable - but unfortunately people can't see past a flaw on the COMET that led to a fatal accident.
With AAR and room for a slip crew, the aircraft could easily do up to 24 hours on task!
So how does the 2 seat Typhoon OCU manage to do all that training with so little fuel :p

[Lima Juliet]

FH

Sadly, I fear, any upgrades for MRA 4 will be way down the pecking list. Let's get her into service for her primary role, eh?

Also, we're aren't buying that many and so I dout she will ever go to Afghanistan.

On the 2-seat fuel issue. It's great for training, but, fuel is life in air combat and leaving a bit behind to carry another bloke, no matter how important it might be, is another matter. Don't forget, that the external fuel tanks will be ditched pre-merge and so that extra bit could make all the difference. Remember Spitfire/Hurricane vs ME109 about 70yrs ago? The ME109 was superior in nearly all areas (apart from Spitfire's slightly better sustained turn rate) and was most usually beaten because it was running short of fuel.

Just my opinion though...

LJ :ok:

[Future Hunter]

LJ - I thought speed was life in AAC? The Me109 only had about 5 mins of effective dogfighting in 1940 because it was fighting a long way from home. Drop tanks came in to allow long range transit. It depends where fuel is used first - ideally from drop tanks but within the aircraft is a different matter for balances and reliefs.

If a Typhoon was scrambled from the UK to intercept an unknown contact fuel is not an issue! There are plenty of places to divert into on a fuel priority in the UK - St Mawgan all the way up to Kinloss/Lossie, or at a stretch Stornoway or Wick. There is a tanker on standby at Brize and more 'Q' jets that will take over if the 1st wave has to come back in. The UK isn't guarded by just 2 guys in immersion suits sitting in a Lincolnshire shed!

We're getting 9 MRA4s at the moment - we've got fewer C-17 and Sentinel - and they're out in theatre. No reason it shouldn't see action...

[andrewn]

Personally I'm not sure what Fox means when he talks about "kissing goodbye to the cold war" - didn't we do that in the 90's with Options and the follow on SDR? From a RAF pov significant manpower reductions took place and cold war focussed capabilities are already gone (anyone remember RAFG and tactical nuclear optons, etc).

The problem with predicting the future is it's always the unknown that catches you out; therefore balanced forces and capabilities are a must. So if we take the IND (Navy) as a given then that means Army and Air are left to squabble over what's left.

In that context any pretence to willy waving carriers must go; so bye bye QE2 and for that matter JSF. In service Typhoon needs to be properly funded and fielded in sufficient numbers to allow disposal of first Harrier and (much) later GR4 fleets. Lets free up some Army money by halving tank and artillery composition and fully funding Apache, and buying more if necessary.

Agree that MRA4 (more than 9) is a must as it gives us options as well as fulfiling a basic need, we are an island nation with overseas territories after all. But probably time to wave goodbye to at least 3 sentries (E-3D's) or even all of them - why can't we leverage the NATO capability here?

We need more strat AT and some decent (none ancient, none PFI) AAR, not sure about 70(!) chinooks plus Merlin, Puma, SK and Wildcat. Don't think I'm alone in saying that a number of Blackhawks could replace many of those mentioned?

I'm sure there's more....

[The B Word]

FH

My two-penneth if I may?

No reason it shouldn't see action...

Er? Apart from the need to modify the DAS, EO/IR, clearance/trials for laser designator, clearance/trials for weapons release...need I carry on? It's money we don't have.

Also, 9 aircraft will just about see to Nimrod's primary task - protecting our "boats". Not playing silly b@ggers in the sandpit, pretending to be something it isn't. What about LR SAR? The other national standby commitments? All more valid than the sandpit. And 9 doesn't go far, when you consider maintenance requirements.

So I very much doubt it will ever deploy to the sandpit like the MR2 did.

On the subject of fuel, I agree with LJ. Fuel is most definately a valuable commidity in dogfighting - I always used to chuckle in PSAB at the POL slogan "Without fuel Pilots are pedestrians!". Diversions are no good for you if you're trapped in a single circle fight with a SU-27 without the gas to outmanouevre, or if he's "winchester" and you want to bug out past his guns range - or even still, you wan't to hang around until your wingman can "have at" the SU-27 you're trapped with.

Andrewn

The Sentry AEW Mk1 is essential as we've ditched so many of our ground based radars (albeit very outdated). Furthermore, it is the essential "force multiplier" for Typhoon, Tornado, JSF et al - which is even more pertinent if we lose more FJs as projected. Finally, "yes" we could ask NATO to do AEW for us, but it would come at a financial cost. We supply our Sentrys to NATO "in kind" as part of the NATO AEW agreement vice having to stump up huge amounts of cash to keep in the NATO AEW Force at Geilenkirchen. Now that really is a "cash cow". Also, if we want to do a UK-only op then we cannot rely on NATO to agree to provide. They said this time last year that they were going to Afghanistan and they still haven't been as they can't find a base that all the partner nations can agree on or abide by the Host Nation's rules!

Sentry and FJs are intrinsically linked and if one goes then so does the other!

I hear that tanks are under threat of being mothballed down to a number of "spearhead" examples. Along with all the manpower that support these behemoths going off to help out with the current main effort.

So I'm pretty sure that the Army will also take a bit of pain, but hey, they have been doing the Lion's Share of late.

The B Word