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Brian Abraham
13th Jun 2010, 10:28
The following is an edited article doing the rounds in the home build circles. Would anyone with credentials care to comment. Ghengis, JT? Thanks in advance.

Why isn’t every piston airplane turbo-normalized? This is a good place to remember Robert Heinlein’s wonderful acronym: TANSTAAFL. There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. As attractive as it appears at first, there are several mechanical arguments against turbocharging airplanes. One of the biggest is heat. If the engine is making full rated power, it must reject a certain amount of heat to stay with operating limits. This is exacerbated by the fact that compressing air makes it hotter. This is manageable if the airplane is in the lower atmosphere where there is plenty of cooling air, but if the engine is operating in very thin high-altitude air, there is a lot less mass to absorb heat. Soon cylinder head temperatures are beyond limits and oil is cooking. But these are mechanical details and people can devise mechanical solutions. They may be heavy, complicated and expensive, but they work.

No, the real problem is not mechanical. The real danger is exceeding the Never Exceed Speed, noted as Vne.

Many pilots assume that operating at high altitude (greater than 12,500 ft, say), even with the increased power supplied by a turbocharger, will not be a problem if the mechanical problems are solved. Sure, they can go faster, but not so much faster that they exceed the limitations marked in living color on the airspeed indicator. How, they ask with apparently perfect logic, can the airplane be exceeding Vne if the needle is in the green arc?

Because the airspeed indicator is The Gauge That Lies. Despite its name, an airspeed indicator does not measure speed. It measures “q” – dynamic pressure caused by packing air molecules into a tube. Now, several limiting speeds like stall speed (bottom of the green and white arcs), gust loads (top of the green arc), and maneuvering speed (blue line) are also functions of q, so they may be read directly off the dial. In these cases, the logic is true.

This logic is NOT true for the very important red line at the top of the yellow arc. Here’s why:

Consider an aircraft flying in smooth air at cruise speed. The aircraft structure is then slightly disturbed (such as by turbulence). In response, the aircraft structure will oscillate with amplitude decreasing until the oscillation stops altogether. This dynamically stable response is due to damping acting on the system, either from the aircraft structure and/or air. If the cruise speed is incrementally increased there will be a particular speed at which the amplitude of structural oscillation will remain constant. The speed at which constant amplitude oscillation can be first maintained is defined as the “critical flutter speed”, or more generically “flutter speed”. Flutter is almost a pretty word.
You’d associate it with butterflies and silk handkerchiefs. But in the engineering sense, it can be highly destructive. Once flutter has started, the amplitude may quickly become so large that a structure will disintegrate, literally shaken to pieces.

Remember, as the airplane climbs, there are fewer air molecules and less air pressure, so the needle on The Gauge That Lies reads a lower speed, even though the airplane is actually going just as fast. That’s why True airspeed is faster than Indicated. But flutter does not depend on Indicated Air Speed/dynamic pressure. It is directly related to True Air Speed — the velocity of the air passing by the airframe. The velocity of the excitation force is the prime concern, not the magnitude. It is very possible to exceed this critical “flutter speed” without encountering flutter if there is no initial disturbance. But if the critical flutter speed is exceeded and then a disturbance is encountered, the aircraft structure will begin to oscillate in response to the velocity of the passing air. This is not a typical resonance, where either increasing or decreasing the speed will move the aircraft away from the critical frequency and the vibration will stop on its own. Going faster merely pumps more energy into the system, increasing the amplitude of the flutter. Go faster, flutter harder. Only going slower and lowering the velocity of the air over the airframe will solve the problem.

RVs are designed presuming the installation of naturally aspirated engines (and pilots). Van’s flutter analysis is conservative, but not so conservative as to allow for the true airspeeds that might occur using an engine that can develop 75% of rated power up to altitudes of 20,000 feet or more.

Interestingly, airplanes without engines – let alone engines with turbochargers -- can encounter the same dangers. Sailplanes often fly at quite high altitudes. Those long, long wings tend to be flexible structures which makes them, potentially, quite susceptible to flutter. Sailplanes may not have engines, but they certainly have the equivalent of a lot of power in the Earth’s gravity. They also have very little drag. The combination means that they can accelerate very quickly indeed. A sailplane pilot who points the nose down at altitude could find himself in a grave situation very quickly. It is not uncommon to see charts in sailplane cockpits correlating the Vne to indicated airspeed.

The margin of safety narrows with altitude, and actually goes negative in some cases. A negative margin of safety is not considered desirable by passengers or insurance companies. Pilots, too, although they are superior beings with greater intellectual capacity, should be concerned. Superior intellect hits the earth just as hard, although it tends to be more surprised when it happens.

If you must hurtle through Mother Nature’s atmosphere at a speed higher than the Vne of the RV -10, it would be best if you found another airplane to do it in. Preferably one designed for the job.

We anticipated – hoped for, actually – a firestorm of discussion over the article in the 6 issue of 2004 concerning Vne. Well, we got a smoldering match head anyway. As I suspected, the idea that a major reason for establishing Vne was based on a True Airspeed number was news to some pilots – it certainly was to me. A couple of correspondents expressed concern, evidently thinking that somehow the safety margins of our airplanes had been narrowed.

A caller questioned using True airspeed when FAR Part 23 (the regulations governing certified aircraft) uses indicated airspeed. Again, the answer is about margins. If, for instance, an airplane with a normally aspirated engine is flying above 10,000 feet, the diminishing power will offset the increasing true airspeed by an amount that will make it impossible reach Vne. Whether the pilot is reading true or indicated doesn’t matter – he’s still within the margin of safety. It’s possible that knowing this, the writers of Part 23 decided to keep things simple.

fdcg27
13th Jun 2010, 22:53
Unless everything I understand about airpspeed and aircraft is wrong, the only thing the airplane knows or feels is IAS.
This would have to include margin above flutter.
I have never seen TAS as a limiting speed, but then, I don't have all that much experience.
Stall is entirely a matter of angle of attack, of course, and will happen at various indicated or true airspeeds.
I am aware of the cooling problems that can happen with a turbo engine at altitude, but flutter in the green arc?

Mad (Flt) Scientist
14th Jun 2010, 01:34
...the only thing the airplane knows or feels is IAS.

Actually, IAS is almost the only speed that an aircraft cares about not one jot. As the name suggests, it's the Indicated speed; it's therefore of massive interest to the pilot, since it's the speed he sees. But in terms of the actual forces acting on the aircraft, its at the back of the line...

CAS is actually a more "real" speed, since the errors in measurement are eliminated.

EAS is also more "real", because it relates directly to the forces generated by the airflow (look at the definition of EAS, and then at the typical equation relating lift force, say, to airspeed)

And TAS matters for flutter because the issue isn't just aerodynamic forces (which vary with EAS, really) but also the relationship between the natural structural frequencies and the frequencies at which the air will try to force the structure. That latter is, at least to a reasonable approximation, dependent on TAS.

Because the designer and the certifying authority have to keep the pilot safe from any and all of the various hazxards, their limiting speeds must be expressed in IAS so that they can be respected. Its not unusual to make simplifying approximations in doing so, in order to make the various limit speeds easy to remember and to respect.

SomeGuyOnTheDeck
14th Jun 2010, 02:39
Um, if you'll accept input from SLF/cocky sim pilot :rolleyes:, I think you should start from the beginning. Ignoring instrument errors (!), when does IAS differ significantly from TAS? At altitude? Yup. And what happens at altitude? TAS becomes increasingly greater than IAS. All clear so far? It must be, even I understand this. Now the tricky bit - what happens to the speed of sound with altitude? Erm, um, not sure - temperature related I think? But does it match more closely the change in IAS, or the change in TAS? Um, er? Time to look at the manuals? Well, no, compared to the IAS/TAS eror with increasing altitude, changes in the speed of sound are fairly minor - at least over the relevant altitude range. So what does this all mean? Well, if you can fly high enough, at cruising (IAS) speeds you may be approaching localised supersonic airflow, which is rarely a good thing in a plane not designed for it. If you fly even higher, you can reach 'coffin corner', where the difference between stalling speed and hitting compressibility is a few knots - ok if you are a U2 pilot, and paid to do this, but not a sensible place to be otherwise. As I understand it, VNE is given in IAS because pilots shouldn't be expected to do unnecessarily complex maths in critical situations, but specified as differing with altitude to allow for compressibility etc.

- End of smart-Alec posting - back to the professionals. But am I wrong?

PBL
14th Jun 2010, 03:40
A well-written, and of course accurate, post from Mad (Flt) Scientist.

PBL

Nubboy
14th Jun 2010, 07:45
One of the surprising things about moving from light pistons and gliders on to modern heavy metal airliners was how apparently academic physics and aerodynamics really do influence the manner in which you can operate any aircraft at high speed and altitude.
With the advent of modern instrumentation systems, the calculation and display of the limiting speed parameters is now taken for granted. On the 'bus it's very easy to see the narrowing of the operating envelope dispalyed on the speed tape as you climb abover the high 20's, followed of course by the automatic switch across to mach number. Indeed just because the FMS says you can cruise another 2000 feet or so higher, in turbulence I personally don't like getting within at least 1000 feet of the reccomended max alt, the margins between stall buffet and mach overspeed become too close.
For light aircraft without fancy air data computers, then the thought of replicating all the high speed testing done in the late 40's mand 50's, accidently, would be far too exciting for me;)

An interesting thread.

Pugilistic Animus
14th Jun 2010, 07:54
SomeGuyOnTheDeck

Wot are you on about...:confused:

SomeGuyOnTheDeck
14th Jun 2010, 12:18
Sorry, written under the influence. Rather missed the point of the original posting, though I'm sure the relationship between IAS, TAS and the speed of sound is (more or less) correct. In any case, Nubboy's posting seems to be saying the same thing, only a lot more coherently....

A321COBI
14th Jun 2010, 12:33
I fully agree with Pugilistic Animus

Pugilistic Animus
14th Jun 2010, 19:18
cruising (IAS) speeds you may be approaching localised supersonic airflow, which is rarely a good thing in a plane not designed for it.

I wonder what happens to all those intrepid souls passing through Mcrit

changes in the speed of sound are fairly minor

not really

where the difference between stalling speed and hitting compressibility
:confused:

Dude....Mad(flt)Scientist is an animal with these matters:E...that's a compliment:)

perhaps you should take a look a Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators...and the definitions under FAR 1


I'm just saying:cool:

SomeGuyOnTheDeck
14th Jun 2010, 21:41
Um, I did say I was SLF, Pugilistic Animus. I don't claim to know all the terminology. I'll stick to what I said here, though:
if you can fly high enough, at cruising (IAS) speeds you may be approaching localised supersonic airflow, which is rarely a good thing in a plane not designed for it.

I'm sure passing through Mcrit is no big deal in a plane built for supersonic flight, but I did say it was "rarely a good thing in a plane not designed for it".

I should undoubtedly have written more clearly, or maybe not have written at all. As I wrote earlier, Nubboy has also made the point I was trying to, and he has the advantage of knowing what he is talking about...

(SLF sneaks out of forum, with tail between legs)

A321COBI
14th Jun 2010, 21:45
Mixed pot here, I was under also the impression that all the plane feels is the ias

john_tullamarine
14th Jun 2010, 22:00
I was under also the impression that all the plane feels is the ias

Suggest you might revisit MFS' post.

Pugilistic Animus
15th Jun 2010, 00:06
I'm sure passing through Mcrit is no big deal in a plane built for supersonic flight

Mcrit happens on probably every jet plane, many turboprops and even some pistons..some localized supersonic flow, somewhere on the airframe, is normal... I mean Dc-9s, 737s, Lears....:)

fdcg27
15th Jun 2010, 00:07
Thank you, sir.
While I doubt that I will ever pilot anything capable of operating under any conditions where it would actually matter, it is always good to have one's misunderstanding of theory demonstrated before one learns of his misunderstanding in practice.
I will have to think on this, since I had always thought that the difference between TAS and IAS accounted for the difference in what the aircraft experienced in its interaction with the air as the air grew less dense with altitude.
I guess not!
OTOH, I probably should have realized that Van himself was not speaking through a paper hat.

Pugilistic Animus
15th Jun 2010, 02:04
is the question what happens to TAS if you climb at constant IAS?

or are you talking about continuity of flow at constant IAS? meaning a steady state mass flow

Tankengine
15th Jun 2010, 02:28
No, the point is that some lighties and gliders will flutter!:ugh::ugh::ugh:
They will do this when their TAS gets too high, to prevent this their IAS VNE must be reduced with altitude.
Some glider manufacturers produce a sticker plackard for the panel showing the reducing VNE with altitude.:ok:
Any referance to Jets or Mach numbers is a furphy. [google it if req]

an3_bolt
15th Jun 2010, 02:32
Ohh dear...:mad:kQI3AWpTWhM

Or perhaps another more relevant to some :eek::pEOmCkZyXzk

Denti
15th Jun 2010, 06:58
The glider vid was a test where flutter was induced at pretty low speeds in a prepped aircraft. The pilot calls the speeds from 150 down to 130 km/h if i'm not mistaken as that is the usual unit of speed used in germany and glider flying. Iirc it was done during an Idaflieg summer meet with collaboration of the DLR institute for aeroelasticity which did and does the ground flutter testing of all german build glider planes and other airplanes or space vehicles.