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Ex FSO GRIFFO
11th Jun 2010, 01:26
From today's 'Perth Now' News site,
Link -
Solo sailor Abby Sunderland out of contact, distress signal activated | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/solo-sailor-abby-sunderland-out-of-contact-distress-signal-activated/story-e6frg12c-1225878274560)
(Copy and paste method)

A QANTAS Airbus - A380? - has been chartered by AMSA to go and look for a yacht in distress the Indian Ocean.
Reportedly, the 'A-380' refuelled at Perth this morning prior to departing to the search area in the direction of Reunion to look for Solo sailor Miss Abby Sunderland, attempting a 'round the world' record for her age group, reported as 16 year old.

Besides the obvious thoughts re the teenager etc., is this the first A-380 to pass thru Perth?

And, just for the record, I do hope they sight her OK. The nearest vessel reportedly, is a French fishing boat still some 32 hours away as at 0930 Perth time this morning, Friday 11th. (110130Z)

Cookie7
11th Jun 2010, 01:27
A Qantas A380 will join in the search today for a 16-year-old girl, attempting to sail around the world solo, whose emergency beacons began signalling in the southern Indian Ocean.
Family spokesman Christian Pinkston says rescuers began searching for Abby Sunderland today somewhere between Africa and Australia. He says beacons were manually activated overnight and there has been a loss of communication.
A message from Team Abby on her blog says her boat was having engine problems after a rough day of 60-knot winds and seas of 20-25 feet.
"Satellite phone reception was patchy. She was able to get the water out of the engine and start her up. We were waiting to hear back from her when American Search & Rescue authorities called to report having received a signal from her emergency beacon (EPIRB)," Team Abby wrote.

Abby set sail from Los Angeles County's Marina del Rey on January 23 in an attempt to become the youngest person to sail around the world alone without stopping. Australian teen Jessica Watson achieved this feat when she sailed in to Sydney harbour on the 15th of May after her solo, unassisted round-the-world trip.
Abby ran into equipment problems soon after setting sail and had to stop for repairs. She gave up the goal of setting the record in April, but continued on.
Her website says she left Cape Town, South Africa, on May 21 and on Tuesday reached the halfway point of her goal.


Source AAP

Offchocks
11th Jun 2010, 01:32
I think they mean an A330!

Cookie7
11th Jun 2010, 01:37
Yep I think so too and the live streaming on ninemsn earlier showed an A330 being loaded with paramedics and SAR crew.

hardNfast
11th Jun 2010, 02:07
If it was an A380 that would be a hell of alot of spotters!!

Higs
11th Jun 2010, 03:49
Thank heavens they have paramedics on boad as they can help with any injuries she might have??????????
Ok sorry for the smart comment, but what can they really do? :uhoh:

blueloo
11th Jun 2010, 04:01
They are suggesting she may have a serviceable marine radio in her survival gear - if she has injuries and a first aid kit, they may be able to radio some advice.....

just a guess.

puff
11th Jun 2010, 04:08
I'm guessing in this sort of case they just want to get something there ASAP to get an idea of what they are dealing with by getting a 'visual' on the situation due to the no comms.

Obviously due location the P3 or C-130 is going to take a lot longer, and have less loiter time than a A330, esp if it's a 200.

Big diff to how they will handle it if she's on the water alive or no where to be seen.

Certainly a very different flight for the crew !

Capn Bloggs
11th Jun 2010, 05:02
is this the first A-380 to pass thru Perth?

Absolutely not. A QF Dugong flew up and down the mighty Swan River in Oct 08 waving the flag whilst over here from The East on a famil. :ok:

3 Holer
11th Jun 2010, 06:53
She's been found safe.................end of story.:ok:

Skystar320
11th Jun 2010, 07:18
next things QF will send the bill to the parents

Icarus2001
11th Jun 2010, 07:22
The red-tailed cavalry to the rescue!

There is SEARCH and there is RESCUE.

AMSA knew where she was by EPIRB GPS position.

QF fly to position to check status and establish comms.

The RESCUE comes next.

Vessel is serviceable (mast is up), she is conscious, what is the actual problem then?

blueloo
11th Jun 2010, 07:34
The red-tailed cavalry to the rescue!

Yup.

Indeed. Alot of people waiting for the confirmation she was ok. This was a big thing for the parents.

- Icarus methinks you are being a bit to literal or is there some sort of anti red rat point to your post

Capt Kremin
11th Jun 2010, 07:52
Skystar, QF will send the bill to AMSA, who chartered the A/C.

Icarus, the SMH is reporting the boat is dismasted.

Icarus2001
11th Jun 2010, 07:58
Icarus methinks you are being a bit to literal

Search or rescue or both. How else can I be OTHER than literal?

or is there some sort of anti red rat point to your post

No not at all. Is that a chip I see on your shoulder?

Well done to QF for getting involved in this. Please let us see it for what it really is. A commercial arrangement between a government agency (AMSA) and QF. They will be paid an agreed rate for the aircraft and crew and will not lose any money. If military assets were available under DACC then I am sure they would have been used. (P3?)

This is not big business helping out a struggling young sailor from the goodness of their corporate heart. It is the Australian taxpayer paying QF to do a job for them using one of their assets. (All for that in case you wondered)

Glad to hear Abigail is all well. Now, if I ran Qantas I would also milk it for all the PR it is worth and be contacting her parents and offering to fly them anywhere on the network to reunite them with their daughter. Preferably standing in front of a Qantas PR banner.

Call me cynical but THAT is how it works. If you don't believe me then YOU are naive.

EDIT TO REPLY TO KREMIN: Thanks. That makes more sense now. Radio report I heard said the yacht was all intact, perhaps I took it TOO LITERALLY and they meant the hull is intact.

Capt Kremin
11th Jun 2010, 08:18
One does wonder where the P3's were? I thought there was always a crew on SAR standby. Surely a P3 would have been able to drop supplies-spare raft if necessary.:confused:

Mr Sheen
11th Jun 2010, 08:19
The bill should go to the stupid parents!! But no the Australian tax payer will foot it like most rescues caused by people being stupid...

blueloo
11th Jun 2010, 08:33
Is that a chip I see on your shoulder?

No - the one you see is on yours (hence my post). :rolleyes:

puff
11th Jun 2010, 08:48
Mr Sheen - one could argue that ANYONE rescued from an ocean didn't necessarily have to be there. People chose to travel in yachts around the world knowing the dangers, and our own industry ferries and flies aircraft across oceans all the time, each and every one of them COULD need to be rescued.

In the last few years Australians like Ray Clamback have been rescued and the bill footed by the USA each time, he 'chose' to be there but do we critise the aircraft ferry industry?

AMSA exists for a reason - ANY human in danger deserves to be rescued, and nearly every country with an ocean has a commitment to save people in their SAR region. AMSA spends millions on 'training' exercises etc year round - surely we don't get picky about assisting in picking up a REAL life human in danger.

One day we might have an ETOPS airliner out there bobbing in the ocean do we leave them to rot as well because it will cost some $$ ?

nomorecatering
11th Jun 2010, 09:05
ABC radio reported her position as 2000nm west of the West Australian coast.Sounds like a bit far out for the old P3.

I wonder how the were able to procure an airframe and crew. Not like they have spare airframes and divers sitting around.till

Still, it would have been a bit of an interesting exercise for the crew, something a little different from the normal line flying.

Mr Sheen
11th Jun 2010, 09:13
Puff, Your comparing apples to oranges..This kid should be at school..

KeepItRolling
11th Jun 2010, 10:07
As a nation-state Australia is a signatory to the Safety of Lives at Sea treaty.

As such, the Gummint is obliagted to rescue any and all comers regardless of circumstance, as is The US and others.

We are IN, not OUT of the international SAR system through SOLAS.

RatherBeFlying
11th Jun 2010, 10:19
There was another case in the general area where a sailor had to abandon ship and was picked up by a merchant. He helped out on the bridge until making port.

Sometime later, the boat fetched up in one of the archipelagos off Africa and the locals had their way with it.

The fishing boat might be able to do a tow and gain a salvage award, but if there's any weather, they'll just grab the girl and go.

As for taxpayer dollars, there's a gigabuck being flushed down the toilet for G20 security a couple miles down the street:{

OZBUSDRIVER
11th Jun 2010, 11:16
Just for interest Tony Bullimore was 1400nm out from PH.

Cookie7
11th Jun 2010, 11:55
Didn't Tony Bullimore have two consecutive events in the same place at different times? Once is bad enough, but...

neville_nobody
11th Jun 2010, 12:21
next things QF will send the bill to the parents

NO the A330 was chartered by AMSA after a request from Reunion Island.
Tax payers are footing the bill here and QF just happened to have a 330 available to go have a look. I don't think there would be to many aircraft in Australia that would be able to fly 2000NM then hold for a bit at low level and fly back to Perth.

Fubaar
11th Jun 2010, 12:58
The question no one has asked here is if you had a sixteen year old daughter, (including if your surname is Watson), whether you'd allow her to sail solo around the world.

Let's draw an aviation analogy. If some hypothetical mommy and daddy had the funds, they could give their 16 year old daughter two or three hours in a simulator where she could learn to just take off and set up the controls for an autoland. They could then place her at the controls of a long range jet full of fuel and little else and programme the FMC and set her off on a 'record breaking' round the world flight with only two autolands required.

My guess would be that if absolutely nothing went wrong, she'd probably get away with it (sleeping much of the time if she chose to while George the FMC did it all). However, most readers here would know how many things could go wrong in such a venture and would agree that those parents should be prevented from allowing their child to do such an incredibly dangerous thing.

Now I don't know a lot about around the world solo sailing, but (again) my guess would be that however well you planned it, as many of not more things had the potential for going wrong on such a trip than on my hypothetical two sector round the world flight - even if your name is Watson, where thankfully, nothing so serious that it was beyond the capabilities of a lone, very able sixteen year old to handle did go wrong.

Getting back to my first paragraph, how could you live with yourself if your sixteen year old daughter did meet her death on such a venture?

DutchRoll
11th Jun 2010, 13:26
That's a whole new debate Fubaar, and one which has been covered in the media recently.

Humans are not rational (as much as we like to think they are). They tend to take the path of least resistance even if it's a completely stupid one. They also tend to like grand-standing. Parents dress their 5 year olds in teeny tiny skirts and 3 layers of makeup, and train them how to look, walk, and speak, so they can win beauty pageants. They argue violently over kindergarten/primary school soccer "matches" where the kids barely have the faintest idea what they're doing, but just like kicking a ball.

I don't pretend to know why this happens, but it's a fact of life these days.

neville_nobody
11th Jun 2010, 13:35
VB, Tiger Alliance etc all have spare aircraft but only a QF widebody, Packer's Global, or possibly the VIP squadron would have an aircraft even capable of this mission. Not to many aircraft actually have a 4000NM+ range.

desmotronic
11th Jun 2010, 14:14
The question no one has asked here is if you had a sixteen year old daughter, (including if your surname is Watson), whether you'd allow her to sail solo around the world.


if i had a sixteen year old daughter she wouldn't be allowed to walk to the shops after dark. :}

MikeNYC
11th Jun 2010, 14:44
Great news that the Qantas search crew spotted her and established comms! My question is about ETOPS though. The girl's position really was out in the middle of nowhere. What ETOPS level does Qantas operate their 330's? 180min or 240min? Also, how would that apply if the aircraft is flying low and slow to establish visual contact, if one engine goes inop and a diversion is needed from under 10,000ft 1500nm+ from a diversion airport? Or possibly ETOPS rules were suspended as this was a SAR op? Just curious.

DutchRoll
11th Jun 2010, 15:00
ETOPs applies to commercial/RPT flights.

The bottom line is: they had to have enough gas to go somewhere, anywhere. End of story. ETOPs does not apply.

And well done to the crew, too.

MikeNYC
11th Jun 2010, 15:05
DutchRoll, well the flight was performed by a civil airliner, with a civilian crew, in a charter situation (for revenue). In the US, Part 135 charter operations are subject to ETOPS. Not sure about CASA land though. And kudos to the crew and job well done. I just imagine that there would have been some interesting flight planning and performance calculations taking place.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
11th Jun 2010, 15:46
YES!! A job WELL DONE by our 'National Carrier' at what would have been 'short' notice...

Besides the successful outcome of the flight, and FULL congrats to the crews who made it possible, just think of the positive publicity generated by this flight when those in the 'States' see that red tail with the 'roo on their TV.

Much better than 'Where the bloody hell are ya?'

I suggested the A-380 (?) in my intro post because that's how it was reported on radio this morning.

WELL DONE QANTAS!!!

DutchRoll
11th Jun 2010, 16:16
Sorry misler (I was a bit harsh before I edited it), but we are splitting hairs here.

OK, the 330 is operated to 3 hr etops normally. I'm not sure if they were within the 3 hr range to La Reunion or not (they may well have been), but I suspect it would be academic anyway. Perhaps they had permission from the regulator, or it wasn't technically a "charter" - I don't know, and I don't imagine anyone actually cares.

Flight planning would indeed be interesting. As someone who has done real-time SAR I imagine it would have been "fill 'er up" and then work out a min diversion fuel to somewhere, wherever that may be. You then just fly the search pattern to your min diversion fuel (if required) plus a bit of a fudge factor, and hope that you find the survivor before you need to divert to some crap-hole in the middle of nowhere.

MikeNYC
11th Jun 2010, 16:20
Dutch - thanks for the answer; it was merely for academic curiosity. Also appreciate the input on flight planning. It's certainly an interesting use of the 330!

tempesta
11th Jun 2010, 18:34
none of you guys got the idea of what is like being 2000nm away from the shore in rough seas...with a DISMASTED boat waiting for somebody to find you... If you are the coordinator of a search and rescue you use all the possible and fastest tools you've got! The P3's are slower for the enroute part, so sending the a330-300 was the best choice, and boarding paramedics and co is the only solution to try to stabilize whoever is hurt, even just using the radio. The key in these situations, is to find first the remainings of the boat starting from the last known position,make computations of the currents and tides, then use it as datum point to start you searches in a growing spiral, and then good luck. Finding a person/raft in the water is one of the toughest challenges i've ever experienced as a pilot, consider that at 500' you barely see a raft in calm waters. :sad:

Capt Kremin
11th Jun 2010, 22:17
I am not a yachtie but the criticism of this venture V Jessica Watson seems to come from the timing of the trip in that Jessica avoided operating in the Southern Ocean during winter.

From her Blog however, one wonders if it made that much difference.

I don't know who operated this A330 but I bet the guys had a blast, especially with the successful outcome.

Kiwiconehead
11th Jun 2010, 22:30
Stupid question - how did the A330 talk to her?

Aviation band VHF can't talk to Marine VHF from memory, someone remind me of the simple answer.

Capt Kremin
11th Jun 2010, 22:42
121.5?

Handheld?

MikeNYC
11th Jun 2010, 22:55
Kiwi - Marine VHF is FM, Aviation VHF is AM. Also Marine VHF is a little bit higher up the spectrum (156-158Mhz)

Capt Kremin
11th Jun 2010, 23:33
The QF fleet blog has the A330 involved as a -300, not a -200.

As they were pretty much empty the endurance would still be pretty useful. Well done Truckie.:ok:

VH DSJ
11th Jun 2010, 23:36
They did have the AMSA crew on board the A330 didn't they? I'm sure they're well equipped to talk to any marine vessels.

Pity AMSA couldn't have used their Dorniers. Their Essendon crew look a little bored sometimes waiting for some action.

neville_nobody
12th Jun 2010, 00:15
They had a few people from various departments. they would have had a bunch of radios, ELT tracker etc etc.

This is an airwork flight so ETOPs doesn't apply.

vee1-rotate
12th Jun 2010, 02:57
AMSA website states they have tasked a Global Express to the yacht's position today to help coordinate the rescue.

AMSA - Recent Events (http://www.amsa.gov.au/About_AMSA/Corporate_information/Recent_Events/2010/June-WildEyes.asp)

neville_nobody
12th Jun 2010, 05:17
I'm sure if you owned an airline and someone rang you up and offered a 20 odd hour charter I think you would be 'making it work'. There is some good money to be made in SAR

JohnMcGhie
12th Jun 2010, 05:46
Sounds like a bit far out for the old P3.

I am sure a P3 would make it easily. When I served as observer on a P3B looking for a yacht in distress off the north of New Zealand, we had about 18 hours of fuel.

If she's 2000 nm out, I guess that's about six hours there, and the same back. That would leave the P3 with more than six hours loiter over the target. And you could stretch that, by feathering two engines, if you were serious.

I am sure the modern engines and props on the P3C are more efficient than the ones we were flying. It would make it easily: the P3 was a very good aircraft :-)

prospector
12th Jun 2010, 05:56
The 406 EPIRB would not require a search, it would be a homing exercise, and if, no doubt, it was the latest version or close to, it would have VHF 2 way communication ability as well.

To my way of thinking if all this modern technology was not available, ie GPS, a telephone to talk to Mum and Dad when things turn to custard, ability to yell to be rescued when the smelly stuff hits the fan, then there would not be all this so called record seeking, money making attempts being initiated by PR people.

It used to be that going to sea on long solo journeys required a different mind set than what appears to be the current trend amongst publicity seeking people.

It was said many years ago by one of the most experienced ocean cruisers of the time that the worst thing ever invented as far as cruising yachtspeople were concerned was a transmitting radio. The whole object of the exercise was supposed to be that you are completely self sufficient. The number of yachtspeople who have had mishaps such as dismasting and still made it to a port using their own resources is in the hundreds, and nary a word to the public.

peuce
12th Jun 2010, 06:25
This may shed some light on it ....


Saturday, 12 June 2010

Defence to support Sunderland rescue

The Australian Defence Force has forward deployed two Royal Australian Air Force AP-3C Orion Maritime Patrol Aircraft to Cocos Island to provide support if required to the recovery of the stricken yachtswoman Abby Sunderland whose yacht is adrift midway between Australia and Africa in the Southern Ocean.

If needed, one of the AP-3C Orion will fly to Mauritius to refuel and will then fly south and provide coordinating support for civilian ships that have responded to the yachtswoman’s emergency beacons.

Despite the fact that Abby Sunderland has been found, the Royal Australian Air Force has continued to deploy its AP-3C as a contingency. If required, the aircraft will also be able to drop emergency supplies to the yachtswoman.

This support is being provided at the request of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority.



Media contact: Defence Media Liaison: (02) 6127 1999 or 0408 498 664

Mstr Caution
12th Jun 2010, 07:11
I would be concerned with the fact QF have a spare A330 lying around to send on search and rescue missions, or was it waiting to go into the paint shop to be put in JQ livery???


I would have no concern at all.

Legacy carriers, as opposed to low cost will often have the flexibility within their flying & maintanence schedule to allow additional adhoc flying.

That adhoc may be SAR, as seen here. Charter to their own LCC, or additional services due increased capacity requirements.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
12th Jun 2010, 10:06
CH 7 Perth News just announced that the French fishing vessel has picked up Miss Sutherland and that she is now 'safe on board', as of 15 minutes ago.

That would make the pick up at 120945Z.

So, I guess that is the end of the 'exercise' as far as aviation is concerned - except for the Airline trip back to USA......and the USA Media.....

An EXCELLENT RESULT!! :ok::ok::D:D

teresa green
15th Jun 2010, 10:52
It was quite standard for either TAA or Ansett to go on these missions, often when they were onroute, the PAX enjoyed being spotters, and the flight crew enjoyed the flying. Glad about the good result, but if she were my daughter, no way, even if I had to nail one of her feet to the ground!

The The
15th Jun 2010, 21:23
Yes, it's only texting, twittering and facebook for my daughter.:ugh:

Life is sooo much safer in the virtual world!!!!

Jabawocky
15th Jun 2010, 21:44
URL Filtering....is your friend!:ok:

peuce
15th Jun 2010, 23:46
Yes, whatever you do, make sure sure you filter out www.pprune.org !

Jabawocky
15th Jun 2010, 23:55
Ok...Done.......:\

Stationair8
16th Jun 2010, 08:45
Didn't TAA send a B727-100 out for major search for a yacht missing off the east coast of Australia in the late 1960's?

Fliegenmong
16th Jun 2010, 10:02
Just a quick thought, and I haven't read back, and I haven't checked her exact location...but some assistance from Diego Garcia not an option? :confused:US citizen..US forces.....I guess I'm asking why am I paying (Taxes) to rescue US citizen whn US interests are so nearby....again assuming they were in vicinity, sure if she was just off the coast at Fremantle...different, though I still think there is something to be said for user pays............ :ok:

man on the ground
16th Jun 2010, 11:29
That option was amongst all possibilities explored I believe, but the quickest surface response was going to be from the french fishing vessel that did the pick up. The location was just as far from there as Oz. The kid was in the middle of no where.

JohnMcGhie
16th Jun 2010, 11:32
Just a quick thought, and I haven't read back, and I haven't checked her exact location...but some assistance from Diego Garcia not an option? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifUS citizen..US forces.....I guess I'm asking why am I paying (Taxes) to rescue US citizen whn US interests are so nearby....again assuming they were in vicinity, sure if she was just off the coast at Fremantle...different, though I still think there is something to be said for user pays............ http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Check post #23 in this thread. Australia is a real, grown-up country (well, some of the time...) and we're a signatory to the Safety of Life at Sea treaty.

If Jess had been less well-prepared and less well-equipped, the Americans would have had to go and get her when she was in their territorial waters.

Abby was inside our territorial waters: by only about 100 km, I believe, but she was on our patch.

We wouldn't want to give the Americans the idea that we run away from our obligations at such a moment, now would we? Otherwise, the next time we get ourselves into a blue, the next President Roosevelt may just decide that his citizens' taxes could be better spent otherwise...

Cheers

compressor stall
16th Jun 2010, 12:01
Actually Abby was outside our patch....by about the amount you mention. Off the top of my head the Aust SAR region stops at 075E.

Overall map with distances here. GC Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?DU=nm&MS=bm&P=PER-4048S7458E,CPT,RUN,%22Wild+Eyes%22I%2b%404048S7458E,%22%CEle +Saint-Paul%22%2b%40384348S773120E,%22Kerguelen+Islands%22%2b%40491 5S6935E%0d%0aFIMP-4048S7458E-FJDG&PM=b:disc7%2b%22%25N%2212&PW=2)

The The
16th Jun 2010, 12:31
AMSA picked up the beacons and notified La Reunion (French) MRCC as it was in their patch. La Reunion initially coordinated the search.

La Reunion requested assistance due to the remote location and the QF A330 was dispatched. They were also directing the fishing vessel to the location.

The yacht then drifted into RCC Australia territory so AMSA became the coordinating authority.

teresa green
16th Jun 2010, 12:48
Could well have done Stationair, but as I said it happened every so often to both TAA and Ansett. I was directed to a sinking fishing boat off CNS in a DC9, seems his net snagged a underwater object and pulled the whole box and dice under, the crew of three were hanging on to a float, and we buzzed them (I am not quite sure what I actually did, other then keep them company and perhaps the noise of the DC9 kept the sharks away) (the DC 9 would wake the dead!) anyway the Navy turned up and we went on to BNE. Many TAA and Ansett pilots would have had some sort of experience during their careers, as it seems they called on more civil aircraft to assist then they do now. Probably due to cost, insurance, or the Sea, Air and Rescue are better equiped. The flight crew certainly enjoyed the flying in those periods, and a brief break from line flying!

Ex FSO GRIFFO
16th Jun 2010, 12:49
Re Stallie's
"Off the top of my head the Aust SAR region stops at 075E."

Correct. The western boundary is from (old - maybe still) posn. LATEP at around 6S 75E, all the way down the 75E to 'infinity and beyond'.....

The other side of the border is Mauritius FIR, so I guess the 'maritime' boundaries are the same.....

FJDG (Diego) is in Mauritius FIR also.

compressor stall
17th Jun 2010, 11:13
'infinity and beyond'

That's one way to look at it :cool: Actually, coincidentally, E075 longitude passes through my favourite ice shelf.

B772
17th Jun 2010, 13:46
Interesting to read there were only 2 cabin crew on the flight operated by the A330-300.

Capt Kremin
17th Jun 2010, 22:08
Why is that interesting? With the Tech crew on board thats at least 5 people qualified on the doors. Way more than required for the number of POB.

Icarus2001
18th Jun 2010, 05:27
Two CC sounds fine to me.

OhForSure
19th Jun 2010, 06:57
I understand it was -300 QPF involved.