Airline begins installation of Airbags

[mickjoebill]

Looks comfy enough to be activated for the entire flight.
Seriously, hopefully this also signals that the days of babies and infants being carried on parents lap are numbered.

Mickjoebill


Airlines begin fitting airbags (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/airlines-begin-fitting-airbags-20100609-xwre.html)

[Number34]

Need more info, like what sort of impact and how will they be deployed? Its not like in a car where you have the sensors behind the bumper.

[mickjoebill]

number 34, link added

Mickjoebill

[sgs233a]

They've been around in some aircraft and seats for at least a few years.... probably not a bad thing to have them on all seats if they work reasonably well.

Seem to recall sitting at an exit row with a large space ahead of the seat on an AC A321 a few years ago, that had one of these. Same company makes models for GA aircraft as well... 2 recent build Diamond DA40's at a flight school I flew at had these in the front seat as well.

Aviation Child Restraint - Aviation Seatbelts - Aviation Child Seat (http://www.amsafe.com/products/categories/aviationrestraintsairbags.shtml)

[fc101]

What is the reasoning behind this?

So what kinds of accident are these designed to protect the pax from? Under what conditions do airbags deploy - heavy landing, heavy braking, collision (mid air or ground)?

Is there an issue with pax either not understanidng the brace position or not being sufficiently prepared, or even, not bothering?

I can understand if they're in positions where the brace position might be difficult - given the seat pitch on some airlines then it might be warranted...

fc101
E145 Driver

[remoak]

The brace position isn't going to save you in a major accident, all it does is lower the broken bone count a bit.

It's pretty simple, they should activate when there is a high G loading along the longitudinal axis. Any other axis renders them essentially pointless.

[rubik101]

It seems that several people walked unaided from the recent Air India Express accident. Those that didn't almost certainly died from the fire that engulfed the aircraft rather than the apparently not too violent impact. How an airbag might improve such a situation seems to me to be extremely unlikely. If anything the inflated bag would impede rapid exit from the seats not next to the aisles. Better and cheaper would be a shoulder strap as fitted in your car.

[crippen]

HowStuffWorks "How Airbags Work" (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/airbag.htm)

Note on page 2--

It didn't take long to learn that the force of an airbag can hurt those who are too close to it. Researchers have determined that the risk zone for driver airbags is the first 2 to 3 inches (5 to 8 cm) of inflation. So, placing yourself 10 inches (25 cm) from your driver airbag gives you a clear margin of safety. Measure this distance from the center of the steering wheel to your breastbone. If you currently sit less than 10 inches away, you can adjust your position.:hmm:

[4Greens]

Quicker to install the seats the right way round ie facing aft.

[HeadingSouth]

that's gonna be loud in the cabin if they all go off at the same time... Whoever had an airbag flying around their ears in a car knows...

But then, better deaf than dead, I assume...

[JCviggen]

If anything the inflated bag would impede rapid exit from the seats not next to the aisles.

If they work anything like car airbags, deflation will follow inflation nearly instantly. Not as you see in movies. It all happens so fast the human eye has trouble catching it.

[Turkish777]

Ryan Airs will be probably coin operated...

[J.O.]

Ryan Airs will be probably coin operated...

Either that or you'll have to bring along a Tesco bag and inflate it yourself before takeoff and landing! :}

[GarageYears]

Ryan Airs will be probably coin operated...

:D:eek::D:eek::D Another good laugh thanks to PPRuNe!

-GY

[Heliarctic]

In the May 2010 edition of Flying" magazine there is an article about airbags onboard aircraft
Quote:"AmSafe" supplies 95% of seatbelts for the worlds commercial aircraft.
The first seat belt air bag flew on a commercial airliner in february 2001, and others are now installed on 40,000 seats on 50 different airlines.
The airbag is armed when the seatbelt is latched. The airbag is deployed by a module that is attached under the seat in commercial aircraft, or attached to the airframe on GA aircraft.
The G-switch is set to deploy at 8 to 9 G´s with the rate of decceleration factored in to avoid accidental deployement during a hard landing.

At this point almost 90% of new single engine aircraft are delivered with airbag seatbelts.

Been flying on USAF transport´s a handful of times facing aft, and while this may be more safe, i couldn´t help looking at the huge cargoloads facing me in the cabin just waiting to crush me after i´ve been saved by the rear facing seat.:O

[Capetonian]

I don't profess to be an expert on safety but how many lives might this save?

I know the argument is that however few it saves it will be worth it, but how is this going to be significantly better than properly used seatbelts? Most accidents involve total hull destruction and I can't see airbags being very effective. I am sure that someone will cite the Afriquiyah accident, amongst others, and say there might have been more survivors than just the one young boy, with airbags, but it's highly speculative.

From my perspective I cannot say I would feel safer on a 'plane with airbags than with seat belts, it's down to the folk in the pointed end to keep me safe.

Perhaps if I had airbags like this to look at I would not bwe over-concerned about the safety aspect.

[spannersatKL]

Goodness me old technology....AmSafe have had this available for a number of years...at least 10-12 to my knowledge.

All for compliance with Part 25.562 Emergency Landing under Dynamic Conditions. The B777 was first certified to this and I believe Airbus opted to comply on the A345/6?

[Herod]

I have to agree with 4Greens. Rearward facing seats would be a much cheaper and easier option. There's another thread somewhere discussing this in great detail, and I know the RAF went into it very thoroughly back in the fifties.

[ChrisVJ]

Is there a risk of ear damage if all those bags go off at once in a sealed hull?

[4Greens]

On a more serious note, airbags will affect certified evacuation times.

[Tom Sawyer]

As a few others have said, they have been around for a while now. When Virgin Atlantic fitted the J class suite about 8 years ago they were all fitted with airbag belts. Also some front row economy seats have them as they are within a certain distance of a bulkhead. I seem to remember it came from the FAA for all newly certified types at the time (hence why the A345/6 got them) and had to be fitted in seats in proximity to bulkheads.

[nicolai]

If the seatbelt has an airbag in it, you can't attach a child in a lap belt to it (because sitting children on explosive charges is considered unsafe). So if every seat in the aircraft has an airbag, no more lap children. So they'll need their own seat and a proper restraint seat or harness adapter, which will improve safety compared to lap children but irritate the parents who have to pay for a seat for any child of any age.

[john_tullamarine]

Reading through the HowStuffWorks link, I would treat the reference to "soft" with some disdain. Bag deployment is the result of a solid explosive charge - the initial deployment blows the bag up hard with a big bang -this initial gas flow is the reason for most of the risks associated with bag slap injuries.

Another hazard which I didn't see noted was the production of caustic soda which is filtered out of contention. I recall the first sled test at CAMI overlooked this, left off the filters, and ended up like "White Christmas" with the players running for cover to the exits ...

If anything the inflated bag would impede rapid exit from the seats not next to the aisles.

Bags deflate very rapidly after the initial gas-generating explosion occurs. Not really a problem, I suggest.

Better and cheaper would be a shoulder strap as fitted in your car.

It is a misconception that the shoulder strap precludes head impact. Indeed, the harness generally does not achieve that, although the typical head impact speed is reduced significantly .. typical figures quoted are in the 50% range. With a combined restraint system of harness plus bag, the survivability outcomes increase significantly. For those interested, the relevant measure is HIC (Head Injury Criteria) which is a measure largely of brain injury probability and, hence, survivability. Very pertinent to typical high density airliner seating where headstrike to the seatback in front or a nearby bulkhead creates a significant risk.

Rearward facing seats would be a much cheaper and easier option.

Superficial view, I'm afraid. From a previous life's design, testing and certification of seats, the reality is somewhat more complex.

airbags will affect certified evacuation times.

Ought not to be the case, as the bags deflate very quickly. The hanging cover might provide a minor nuisance to egress but not so significant as to affect overall timings.

no more lap children

The child "held" by the parent is merely a missile-in-waiting in other than a fairly innocuous impact.

[clunckdriver]

Air bags, I thought this was about some of the cabin crew Ive seen of late when deadheading!

[Dont Hang Up]

So if the passengers are allowed one piece of safety equipment, which would be the biggest life saver? Lifejacket (as now); airbag; or smoke hood?

[A321COBI]

I think this is a super idea
the amount of times my plane has been hit by strong gusts and passengers complaining of hitting their heads is massive
it will really help

[A321COBI]

So if the passengers are allowed one piece of safety equipment, which would be the biggest life saver? Lifejacket (as now); airbag; or smoke hood?



life jacket for me

[Type1106]

Rearward facing seats - really the only way to go. The RAF did not 'just look into it' in the 50s every RAF airliner type transport - Britannia, Comet, VC10 etc - have had these fitted since I started flying in 1962. In addition USAF 141s (when in airevac role) and C5s (upper deck) also did this.

I was once told that the airlines rejected it because it would 'frighten the passengers' if they were sitting facing aft. In my experience most pax, after loading through a tunnel haven't a clue which way is the front anyway!

When you think about what this airbag is trying to achieve the rear facing seats do it all.

[A321COBI]

type1106 said: Rearward facing seats - really the only way to go. The RAF did not 'just look into it' in the 50s every RAF airliner type transport - Britannia, Comet, VC10 etc - have had these fitted since I started flying in 1962. In addition USAF 141s (when in airevac role) and C5s (upper deck) also did this.


I hope not rear facing seats for the pilots to lol

[nicolai]

no more lap children

The child "held" by the parent is merely a missile-in-waiting in other than a fairly innocuous impact.

Definitely, but I was referring to child restrained by a lap belt attached to the adult's belt, not only held by the adult; the former is approved, the latter is an entirely bad idea.
I see on re-researching this topic that rules seem to vary in practice as to whether the seat belts with airbags allow child lap belts or not, previously I had found only prohibitions (eg Air NZ allows some) so I'll have to amend my previous prediction.

[john_tullamarine]

Rearward facing seats - really the only way to go.

Problems -

(a) seat structure deflection characteristics under crash loads and associated limitations with occupant restraint. This is addressed without too much problem in design but with a weight penalty

(b) seat-floor/wall attachment fitting integrity under crash loads. This is a very major concern. Of interest, CAMI did some full scale tests years ago which showed that the widebodies did quite well in crash dynamics.

(c) real world problems associated with general airframe distortion affecting (b)

I don't have an antipathetic attitude to rear facers but they aren't the immediate panacea which some folk suggest.

I was once told that the airlines rejected it because it would 'frighten the passengers

Marketing hype and nonsense, I suggest.

what this airbag is trying to achieve the rear facing seats do it all.

Tell me your thoughts about missiles flying around the cabin during the crash sequence and your totally exposed head and upper torso in the rear facer .... ?

child restrained by a lap belt attached to the adult's belt

Nearly as bad as the child's being held by the parent.

Have you ever seen a movie of a sled test with particular interest in the dummy's articulated movement during the crash sequence ?

Now, my kids have long since grown up .. but I would NOT sit my kid on my lap restrained to my belt. If one is serious about the subject, one buys the extra seat and uses an automotive capsule/seat/booster as appropriate. The approval of the piggyback strap restraint is an attempt to address the problem without spending much in the way of dollars.

[Type1106]

John,

Yes, I quite agree there is a weight penalty in this seat configuration but I am led to believe this is quite small.

The upper torso and head are protected to a great extent by the seats used in the military types I have flown because the seat back is much higher than in a forward facer - the effect on the perceived space in the cabin is quite noticeable when you board.

I agree wholeheartedly about the child restrained by the adult's seatbelt - sheer madness IMHO

[john_tullamarine]

there is a weight penalty in this seat configuration but I am led to believe this is quite small.

Depends on whether one is interested in achieving the minimum certification requirement or actually achieving something a little more useful. Might I ask who has led you to believe your belief ?

Having been, for my sins in the past, involved in initial design, test and certification as well as rework to make a forward facer acceptable for rearward facing installation, the seat back deflection under crash loads is the problem concern I am citing.

the seat back is much higher than in a forward facer

same requirement for the civil aft facer although, in the civil example, one tends to see the minimum requirement addressed by the use of a tall(er) headrest, either integral to the seat (for the permanent aft facer installation) or removable (for the fwd/aft facer design).

[urok]

We've had these installed in the last 12 months with minimal fanfare or detail from the company.
A couple of questions from the Cabin Crew side of things, to which I appreciate your thoughts!
- Should this affect the brace positions that the pax should adopt?
- What sort of an obstruction might deflated airbags pose, if any, to an evacuation, considering they're predominantly installed in exit rows?
- What is the angle or force of projection of the airbags, considering that crew stations often face airbagged seats, 2 feet away?

I'm sure the company will nut all of this out eventually, but maybe a prod in the right direction before something goes down might be in order!

[john_tullamarine]

Should this affect the brace positions that the pax should adopt?

Brace positions consider

(a) consequential impact

(b) protection from flying objects

For (a), with a rear facer, anything other than erect and supported by the seat back is probably a bit silly

For (b) the rear facer is a problem, period.

What sort of an obstruction might deflated airbags pose, if any, to an evacuation, considering they're predominantly installed in exit rows?

The bag deflates rapidly and is not dissimilar to having a lightweight carry bag attached to the structure. Effect on an evacuation should be minimal, I suspect, although I haven't either witnessed or read any papers on such evacuations.

What is the angle or force of projection of the airbags, considering that crew stations often face airbagged seats, 2 feet away?

This risk consideration should be addressed rationally in a sled test for current standard seats as the value of the bag is in HIC reduction. Clearances will depend on restraint system (full harness, lap-sash, lap only) and the crash load dummy articulation during the bag deployment sequence. Having said that I don't have any data on what the after market installation programs are doing.

[CONSPICUITY]

Hi
BA citiexpress had airbags fitted to the front row of seats of their J41s over 10 years ago, these were being tested and were fitted due to close proximity of the bulkheads infront of the pax.