BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II

[Snas]

Lets not forget Litebulbs that BASSA's initial position was not to negotiate, it was all downhill from there really.

[Neptunus Rex]

I note from that other site that there are strong allegations that the BASSA reps did not go on strike and kept their Staff Travel intact.
Surely now the reps must come clean, or the foecal matter will collide with the revolving cooler.

[leiard]

Litebulbs

Have BASSA ever had a meeting with any BA management team ?

[Litebulbs]

Litebulbs, other workgroups at BA that are represented by Unite have managed to successfully negotiate significant changes with management.

The one exception is BASSA, which suggests they are the problem.

You could flip that the other way round to show that BA are proposing the most significant change to the employees that BASSA represent and hence the problem.

My comment was in response to a previous post that suggested that a different negotiator solved the problems with the BAA. Lets not forget that the potential dispute at the BAA was for a pay rise, not a restructuring.

[Litebulbs]

Litebulbs

Have BASSA ever had a meeting with any BA management team ?

I am sure that they have, but maybe not recently.

[Litebulbs]

Lets not forget Litebulbs that BASSA's initial position was not to negotiate, it was all downhill from there really.

Have to agree with you there.

[LD12986]

You could flip that the other way round to show that BA are proposing the most significant change to the employees that BASSA represent and hence the problem.

If you look back at the original cost saving proposals, the changes were quite modest compared to changes other workgroups have gone through (LHR groundstaff pre T5 move, LGW cabin crew) and the pension fund changes.

Modest changes to crewing levels and a revised disruption agreement are nowhere near as radical as other changes the workforce has gone through. BASSA's refusal to negotiate is the reason why it has dug itself into an ever deeper hole.

[Litebulbs]

LD,

It does make interesting reading, from the leaked document, to where the two sides are now. BA are on track, but £150m down. If no existing crew are to be worse off, then BA must hold some responsibility for the cost of the IA. Or do you see the IA asa necessary part of the process, to reduce the strength of BASSA?

[42psi]

................... If no existing crew are to be worse off, then BA must hold some responsibility for the cost of the IA. Or do you see the IA asa necessary part of the process, to reduce the strength of BASSA?


It appears that BA as a company have been able to agree re-organisation/re-structure and associated cost savings with various other workforce groups (a few of whom could have caused much greater disruption etc than CC).

In my airline days (some time ago now!!) I went through at least two painful restructures ... all achieved without strikes etc.

In my more recent aviation life I have been through further restructures (on both sides of the fence) .. again painful and again without industrial action even being considered.


From the posts I've read on both threads the big differences seem to me to be that in all the cases I've experienced the staff involved recognised the validity of the business needs ... (I'm not syaing they like the idea)

This meant that while they wanted to avoid as much pain as possible they accepted that some was inevitable and had a will to ensure any pain was fairly distributed and really required.

Refusing to meet, examine and discuss business cases/accounts as reported here suggests no willingness to negotiate but rather tactics to simply draw out the process without agreement in the hope/belief that it will eventually go away.


I cannot see how an agreement can ever be reached with that approach....

A company has all sorts of obligations to it's owners etc that mean it simply cannot sit back and say "oh well, we've given it a try" .. they must find a solution or eventually shut down (either quickly or via a long lingering route) ..


A useful negotator has the ability to be able to get across to those they represent what the real risks/benefits are and when it's time to call it a day.

In this dispute we now have a lot of staff who now have a significant degredation to their benefit package in comparison to what they would have had if the first tabled offer had been accepted.

In addition it's also cost them money to get to that point (or has it??)


Every union shop steward or full time union official I've known would always at every point when industrial action was suggested make sure that they spelt out the risks and dangers in great detail .. and that it should only be the last ditch option as once it's used you can never wind the clock back and if it doesn't work you've nothing left to use.


Whatever your viewpoint on the right or wrong .. in this case it really looks poorly handled and advised from the start

[Snas]

Bulb’s old bean, nope, I don’t agree.

By their actions BASSA have been the architects of their own demise. It never needed to be like that. By refusing to negotiate or view presentations on the company’s finances or cooperate with CC89 reps etc they rendered themselves irrelevant or certainly not a part of any constructive attempt to resolve issues.

They then lost the public with the 12 days strike.

They then further compounded this by making false promises (“staff travel will be back in 5 minutes”) and providing half truths (“you can’t be sacked for striking”) to staff and then finally topped the lot off by alienating other workgroups, pilots union being told to “Foxtrot Oscar” and slighting the work of engineers.

If, and I don’t agree it’s the case, but if BA’s original intent was to weaken, destroy, BASSA then BA couldn’t have had a better partner in that plan than BASSA themselves.

I struggle to find one single smart move from BASSA during the whole history of this IA. Can you think of one?

[JUAN TRIPP]

I struggle to find one single smart move from BASSA during the whole history of this IA. Can you think of one?

Have seriously sat here for a few mins and can't think of one. Its actually not easy to think of anything positive they have done in the last 20 years

[GemDeveloper]

Well, I think you have to look through the other end of the telescope...

What BASSA have done, for the last n years, is to successfully protect the way of life and working conditions of their members... actually, it would seem, an élite corps of their members, who apparently are LHR based CSDs, and, possibly the more senior Pursers.

That they have been successful in doing that for so long to the longer term detriment of both of BA as a Company, and their other members (e.g., the LGW staff), matters not to the élite corps.

And, arguably, they have provided leadership to the BA cabin crew, filling a vacuum left by the inept management who allowed them to do that... pace Red Robbo and his like in the Midlands car industry, who successfully shut down volume car manufacturing in the U.K., whereas it still seems to be a possible and sufficiently profitable business in, e.g., France and Germany.

So, the lack of smart moves in the current dispute is that BASSA failed to realise that the winds of change finally were going to blow their tent away. If they'd looked around them, they might have seen that the other parts of BA had already seen the way that the wind was blowing, and adjusted their expectations to suit. But, as so many have commented, the BASSA response was to stick their heads into the sand, and their fingers into the air.

BASSA up to now have been very successful. They were allowed to be successful by a weak management that failed to provide leadership. But now that management has finally taken control, BASSA hasn't got a game plan.

I only hope for all the good and dedicated cabin crew that I have seen over my years as a BA customer that IFCE will ensure that only truly competent Leaders, from both sides of the table, will be allowed to run the show henceforth.

[fincastle84]

Its actually not easy to think of anything positive they have done in the last 20 years

They've made a few reps & old CSDs quite wealthy!

[Litebulbs]

You are probably right of course. I just got thinking after reading the first couple of pages of the original thread in 2008 and the leaked Columbus document.

You are right about negotiations however, you have to be in it to win it.

[RTR]

fincastle84

You make an interesting comment.

They've made a few reps & old CSDs quite wealthy!

In that context alone you can add ALL the trade union leaders for the past 30-40 years! It is generally accepted in the trade union movement that successes by the leaders against management will satisfy the workers enough to ignore the massive salaries the leaders receive.

All at around the £150k mark now plus around £30k's worth of perks is sustainable for years to come - with increases - so long as they can "keep the lads onside" during IA. In BASSA'a case the reps have blown it.

[slast]

Gemdeveloper - an astute analysis, especially in respect of the part played by CC management over decades.

[Neptunus Rex]

That other thread now has a new BASSA troll, in the shape of 'Lady BA BA,' who claims to be an ex model and BA Stewardess. Stewardess? How quaint - ex BOAC perhaps.
She has certainly increased the posting rate, let's see how long this latest incarnation lasts.

[Phil Rigg]

Lady BA BA is so clearly DH in another disguise as who else would open up immediately with personal attacks on, you guessed it, Willie Walsh?

I sense some serious personal issues here if the GS of BASSA feels he needs to keep trolling on PPRUNE rather than dealing with the responsibilities he has towards protecting the livelihoods of his '000s of members.

[ChicoG]

They've made a few reps & old CSDs quite wealthy!

I believe the song went:

"The working class, can kiss my a**, I've got the foreman's job at last"...

[Airclues]

If flyblue, TightSlot or flapsforty assure me that Lady BA BA is a 'Stewardess with BA' I will send a cheque for £50 to 'Help for Heroes'. I've known flapsforty since the Ashbash in May 2000 and she, hopefully, knows that I will be good to my word.

Dave

[redsnail]

Well, the crew of the BA flight from Kiev today were fantastic. :D
Thank you.

[Ancient Observer]

Gemdeveloper.
Yup, I agree.

On the other thread, I note that there continue to be folk allegedly in the BA CC community who want "More", whether it be money, status, holidays, free flights, etc., etc.

That sounds to me like a management team who are still failing to communicate.............and implies that the dinosaur hobby-jobber CSDs are still in charge.

[ChicoG]

AO,

Surely they can ask for whatever they like. The fact that they are doing so and getting stony silence in response is probably more indicative of their separation from reality than poor management.

[Litebulbs]

Why not?

Everything is up for negotiation; well it is if you negotiate. Open up VR again, remove all part time, work to CAA minimums plus 10%, rounded up. Get rid of crew rest areas, unless it is required to extend operational duties, as that's what catering canisters and galley's are for (charter world), then enhance the monthly travel payment with protections and index link pay to CPI for 5 years.

Then give them all staff travel on 20 year Captain's seniority.

Oh, then give them new hats.

[GCI35]

It's the troll season and I must admit I was beginning to have doubts about Asperge, but like the asparagus he seems to have had a very short season. Sincere apologies if I'm wrong.
Lady BA BA has been suspended from the other thread pending verification of her/his right to post on the forum. Nipped in the bud it seems.

[Snas]

Unite releases it's end of year results...!

http://unite.newsweaver.co.uk/images/3341/10792/602544/Statement%20to%20members%20Final.pdf

I found this interesting: -

Recognising the need to provide members with the ability to "fight back" against unscrupulous employers using the excuse of recession to attack members' wages, pensions and other terms and conditions, at its May 2009 meeting, Unite's Executive Council approved a 131% increase in the dispute benefit to £30 per day from Day 1 of a dispute. This level of support for members on strike against their employer is unprecedented in the British trade union movement.

...unless you are BA cabin crew on strike in which case you get more, naturally..!

[nivsy]

With so many comments about BA strike drifting - well on a couple of threads anyway regarding the BA strike I have actually forgotten where we are in this "dispute".

I wish they would make some sort of move.

Can I book a ticket for leisure travel or forget it as strike is still pending/possible? I dont care about my business tickets (dumped BA ages ago) but I sure do care about leisure!

Nivsy

[Snas]

Nivsy, for what it is worth I have booked a holiday flight, using partners free ticket no less, which is a first for us never having bothered to use it in the past - too much hassel... too much risk.

Make of that what you will, but I think you should be ok and I think that I will.

(note, Free ticket does not equal free holiday, If I dont get on the flight I'm still buggered like the rest of the world)

[BillS]

Unite releases it's end of year results...!

http://unite.newsweaver.co.uk/images...rs%20Final.pdf

Interesting to see a certain Lizanne Malone claiming for loss of earnings while doing union business.

Thought I'd read somewhere that she was off sick and unable to work....

[fincastle84]

I have actually forgotten where we are in this "dispute".
The same thought has occurred to me. Unite don't seem interested, BA flights are operating normally & even the reports of bad conduct by a few CC members seem to have disappeared. BA could also move back into profit by year end so it seems inconceivable that Bassa can resurrect strike action.
Doesn't it?:confused:

[call100]

It's just a matter of time now, the announcement of a settlement is not far away....;)

[CharlieOneSix]

It's a pity BASSA didn't listen to Jimmy Reid's famous speech to the Glasgow shipbuilders back in the 70's during their sit-in:

"There will be no hooliganism, there will be no vandalism, there will be no bevvying, because the world is watching us, and it is our responsibility to conduct ourselves with responsibility, and with dignity, and with maturity."

Maybe we would have a different opinion of the BASSA strikers if they had followed that theme instead of behaving like spoilt brats, but there again maybe we wouldn't!

[call100]

I have to agree with you on that point.:D
If you cannot fight a dispute with dignity it is doubtful you negotiated with it to that end....

[MPN11]

@ CharlieOneSix ... :ok: I saw that on TV a week or so back, and was strangely impressed. Considerable dignity and forethought.

@ fincastle84 ... It's not over until the fat lady sings "I give up, do what you must." There must still be undercurrents within BASSA seeking further disruption; they're just trying to find a new excuse.

[fincastle84]

Nice to hear from you again. I'm more optimistic than you, I think Bassa are looking for a way out without losing too much face.
Hopefully we'll be ok for NBO towards the end of September. Have a date with some lions & cheetahs!

[MPN11]

Hi, Finky, and thank you. ;)

On a broad front there is very little prospect of BASSA causing any significant disruption to BA's operations in the near future. Whether BASSA is actually seeking a way out is questionable, certainly as long as DH remains capable of pulling strings. Let us not forget that certain "issues" in the minds of the militants remain unresolved. Given the standards of behaviour and attitudes of some of these people, there still remains the potential for occasional acts of stupidity and/or militancy.

[PAXboy]

If you are wondering whether the die hards of BASSA will ever agree that they 'might' have been wrong - ask Arthur Scargill if he though he was right to take the miners out on strike in 1984~85?

They lost and it changed the face of an industry and trades unions in this country for the foreseeable future.

The failure of BASSA to understand the 21st century is in the same order of magnitude as it was the NUM to fail to see that the 1980s were not the 1970s.

[Northern Flights]

Paxboy - agree re the miners strike, except instead of "for the foreseeable future" I'd have said "forever".

[Neptunus Rex]

I hope that somebody can prove me wrong, but as I understand it DH has to stand down from his job as a BASSA rep at the next election. However, BASSA have contrived to delay the next election until the current wrangle is resolved. So DH has a massive conflict of interest, in that for every month he can drag the issue out, he gains some £6,000 in income.
Dig in for a long siege.

[MPN11]

@ Neptunus Rex ... I'm not sure a long siege is the analogy, but I could envisage some tiresome skirmishing. And that, whilst boosting DH's ego, also inevitably impacts on future bookings.

I know it would achieve nothing for the BASSA "cause", as BA will simply drive their tanks over the diminishing ranks of militant infantry ... but I think there is now a sad disconnect between what BASSA might have wished to achieve originally, and a militant "doing something" attitude that may continue for some time to come.

[PAXboy]

Thank Northern Flights and welcome to the cabin. I had toyed with setting a time on it but human beings usually repeat themselves since there is, as they say, nothing new under the sun. At some stage, the cycle will repeat itself.

[Hotel Mode]

I hope that somebody can prove me wrong, but as I understand it DH has to stand down from his job as a BASSA rep at the next election. However, BASSA have contrived to delay the next election until the current wrangle is resolved. So DH has a massive conflict of interest, in that for every month he can drag the issue out, he gains some £6,000 in income.
Dig in for a long siege.

I dont think that matters necessarily. If BASSA could call a ballot then they would have by now, therefore the issue is out of the press/media. From BAs point of view its all over and the longer BASSA sulk the longer BA can keep salaries at the 2008 level and the more high allowance routes they can transfer to new fleet. The irony is that the longer it goes on more and more of BASSAs dire predictions will come true. :ugh:

[call100]

I hope that somebody can prove me wrong, but as I understand it DH has to stand down from his job as a BASSA rep at the next election. However, BASSA have contrived to delay the next election until the current wrangle is resolved. So DH has a massive conflict of interest, in that for every month he can drag the issue out, he gains some £6,000 in income.
Dig in for a long siege.

Where does he gain £6000 in income? Branch secretaries are not paid by the Union. They claim expenses incurred. I doubt he claims that amount.
Or, is this just speculation?

[Neptunus Rex]

call100
Vide several posts way back on this, or that other thread, by colleagues who presumably know.
Anyhow, the tomato season will soon be over.
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/tomato.gif

[AlpineSkier]

@call100

it has been stated numerous times ( although neither confirmed nor denied )that the Bassa branch Sec receives a percentage of members financial contributions.

[Betty girl]

Hi, I was sent a copy of the audited Union accounts last week. Don't know why because I left unite a long time ago!!

Anyway Lisanne Malone is mentioned as a member of the Executive Comittee and all she claimed was £223 but Duncan Holey is not mentioned at all.

It does not mention anything about branch secretaries getting a percentage of the membership subs anywhere in the document. Of course they don't mention everything but that seems like something that I would have thought might get a mention.

Maybe it is just a rumour!! I have always been sceptical about this as all the union reps draw a salary from BA as did DH so why would the union give him subs from the members as well?

[MPN11]

Thanks, Betty ... that's a completely 'convincing' set of accounts. So Ms Malone's Union activities only cost the membership £223, and she got a FREE Duncan Holley to go with it?

Gosh, I hope nobody at BA or their Legal people read this. Someone might some serious investigation of those Accounts, and those who signed them off. :confused:

[call100]

Branch secretaries don't get the percentage the branch does. The secretary can only claim expenses.....I suggest it was a rumour born of either misinterpretation or pure mischief, or, possibly a bit of both.....

[Betty girl]

MPN11,
There is a link to the accounts on a post by SNAS no 1592.

I expect that they get expences from the branch funds as well but only expences I think.

BA pay union reps their salary plus a daily allowance ( I believe) much the same as crew who work in Recruitment and Training which is about £50 per day( in leiu of lost allowances). At the moment due to the dispute union reps are not being off-lined so at the moment they are not picking up their off-line allowances.

I don't know if DH gets all thoes extra sub payments but I very much doubt it myself.

[42psi]

Having been a branch secretary of the CPSA many moons ago I can say that then there were no payments made.

The only thing you could claim for was expenses where justified.

Your employer pays you normally for the time you spend on union activities during working hours - providing they agree that you can be released :}

For time spent on union duties outside your normal working hours - that's out of your community spirit and wish to help your colleagues - i.e. .. no money ..

The only folks who got paid a salary by a union were those directly employed by them.


I can't imagine it being any different now.

[AA SLF]

There were statements in the "private" crew thread that DH was now an employee of Unite. He is NO longer employed by BA, that is for sure.

[pcat160]

If, and I say if, Duncan Holley is now employed by Unite I would assume that Wooley and Simpson will be able to control him. This may change the dynamics going forward. Given his most recent statements I would think any employment by Unite is only since he has gone silent. The other question is other than controlling Duncan why would Unite employ him after this is resolved. Certainly they do not want him involved in any negotiations. Does Unite have a lunch room at their offices?

[MPN11]

Can a person be an employee of Unite and also still be a branch secretary of a sub-union that represents employees of a company he no longer works for?
That's a bizarre scenario.

On the premise that this dispute has stretched the definition of bizarre to new boundaries, the answer is possibly yes!

However, I agree that DH's position is, dare I say, unusual ... and undoubtedly being analysed by BA's legal people.

In fairness, who are Messrs Wooley and Simpson employed by? They represent employees who are members of the diaspora called "Unite the Union".

[Entaxei]

A number of comments have been made about various aspects of Bassa's capability to do things differently from the normal course of events - i.e. passing changes to the Bassa rules that allow the normal change of officers/reps to be delayed until this dispute is over, thereby keeping all the militants in place - previously making changes that only Bassa can call off the IA or any other activity in this dispute - having sole authority to accept or deny any offer made by BA - all of which apparently leaves Unite helpless to intervene and are not normal rules for a trade union. As a result I find it quite easy to believe that the Bassa has been structured over time to be of benefit primarily to those running it.

In the meantime the militants still appear to be very active, creating new trolls or constructed apologists to try and gain sympathy for Bassa and co, twisting any facts in their way. One of the most wicked things I have ever seen is the Bassa release to their members around October last year, stating that they had continually tried to negotiate with BA, who refused to have any meaningful meetings with them, but that Bassa would continue trying with all their might to obtain a just resolution and members should not even read any statements from their employer BA.

This was subsequently blown out of the water at the court hearing regarding inposition, when it became apparent that Bassa had for many months, refused all opportunities to meet or negotiate and were blindly intent on IA and trying to win back control of BA operations. That release to their members was in my view the worst case of lying, twisted propoganda since the war, the problem being that so many believed it, having been primed to only believe Bassa, that the world was flat!

And so it continues on the other thread, Angelica 20102010 pops up, a 37 year old 4 poster in Italy, explaining how it can't all be Bassa's fault. A poster 'Asperge' fights anyone who says anything bad about Bassa. Somewhere else a supposed CC 'Keving Cok' has apparently been fired and is bitterly complaining about injustice and that 62 have been suspended and 12 sacked, if those are true figures, in my view, we have a long way to go yet. I don't know the way in which any posters are accepted/vetted on the other thread, but it would save a lot of wasted effort if these non CC BA staff/Trolls were filtered out earlier - but I do appreciate that its difficult.

[Phil Rigg]

An interesting post on the crew thread by "tofster" saying he/she will accept less crew on board and reduced pay in line with pilots but will not accept MF recruitment at lower wages and will take further IA if called. He/she doesn't seem to understand that further IA is most likely to be unprotected and will thus trigger dismissal and dicusses it in a way that sounds like it is his/her entitlement such that "if no fresh talks or offers are forthcoming" from BA it is not only inevitable but justified.

Unfortunately the time for accepting less crew on board was last year and BA have never, ever, to my knowledge, asked crew to take less pay rather they have done everything to preserve current pay to legacy crew. MF has been introduced as BA has needed to move forward while BASSA has refused to engage in mature communication. Finally, it is clear BA will be not be making better but only diminishing offers if any at all from now on.

There is something strangely disconnected from the real issues and even somewhat irrational in tofster's post. Almost like a lost sheep who is confused having become disconnected from the flock and those who used to give leadership.

If this post is in anyway true and typical of other union crew members the time is ripe for PCCC to move in.

[Entaxei]

On the other thread, that semi poster Tofster, makes very similar sounds to Kevin Cok and also reminds one of that tomato chappie and one or two other past entities - same prayer book?

In the meantime apropo of Bassa rules, there have also been a couple of comments made recently about how very difficult it is for anyone new to get themselves onto the list as a candidate for the Bassa council/committee, due to the onerous and detailed background, age, experience and qualifications required by the rules.

And so to bed .......zzzzzz

[ChicoG]

An interesting post on the crew thread by "tofster" saying he/she will accept less crew on board

There was nothing much interesting about it. It was just the same banal twaddle the BASSAmentalists trot out, with the same poor attempts at a passive-aggressive approach.

Lest we forget, if "tofster" and the rest of the lemmings had told their union that it was OK to work one down, then they wouldn't have their arses hanging out of the window now, would they?

The fact is their union had them indoctrinated into believing they could do what they like, so they fought the removal of a crew member until BA were forced to do it, then called it "imposition".

Well tough. You reap what you sow, and these BASSA diehards that are coming on here now saying "they wouldn't have minded working a man down" are quite obviously lying, and trying once again to swing the blame to the company and the CEO.

Thankfully, when you have a space cadet like Duncan Holley orchestrating the campaign, it isn't very hard to shoot it down.

He should stick to talking to his tomatoes (mind you they probably pay more attention).

[Phil Rigg]

I guess that having been repeatedly banned under new userIDs DH has possibly resorted to hijacking tofster's userID. This will be a good one for the mods to untangle!

Having won the power struggle, BA/WW cannot settle with UNITE/BASSA as long as DH and his crew are in control otherwise the madness will continue. BASSA's current leadership has imposed every restrictive measure possible to keep themselves in power thus making leadership change by CC membership difficult.

This leaves the majority apathetic CC still paying their monthly BASSA dues in limbo with the onus on them for action if matters are to be resolved. Either they overthrow BASSA's current leadership or they transfer their membership to PCCC which my guess is still way short of the 40% or so numbers required to function officially.

Regarding the dispute, BA can do nothing but sit back and wait for the majority of CC to get whatever message they need to take whatever action they choose. Meanwhile it has a perfect vacuum to move ahead with MF and even at an increased pace if it desires. For minor recalcitrant rumbles then UNITE will slap BASSA down. Should the IA ballot threat rear again then BA is ready to take its Way Forward offer off the table and to warn CC of unprotected action. If IA happens BA can proceed with dismissals, should it choose, but in any case has plenty of VCC to cover the substantially diminished CC that will actually take IA under these circumstances.

BA has completely contained the militants and we now wait, at last, to hear from the CC apathetic majority.

CC you have the limelight - the ball is firmly in your court - rise-up and speak - demand better from your union or switch your allegiance - how say you?

[Phil Rigg]

Deathly silence......... ! ??

Oh well, it was a good intro - maybe this is going to take a while? :)

[OSAGYEFO2]

The tomatoes are debating the problem.

[MPN11]

Never mind ... the CC thread is unravelling the latest distorted 'facts'.

I live in hope that some people will eventually be able to see the truth through the layers of tomato puree. ;)

[LD12986]

I don't think anything will happen until the next BASSA meeting on 6 September.

Oh to be a fly on the wall....

[Hotel Mode]

I don't think anything will happen until the next BASSA meeting on 6 September.

Oh to be a fly on the wall....

I wouldnt hold your breath. Here's a rough guide.

1. Many less than made the last one will turn up and the number will be multiplied 3-4 fold and posted on other thread by duty BASSA member.

2. There will be several speeches regarding bullying/imposition/comparisons with assorted wars and genocides.

3. There will be no announcement of a strike ballot just some time wasting bull about not giving BA any idea of their intentions (at least until BASSA have a clue what their own intentions are)

4. There will then be a vote where all present will agree with whatever the politburo just told them.

You arent expecting dissent are you?

[MPN11]

Gosh, that's a bit cynical! :)

I was thinking along the lines of:

1. DH has a new job with Unite, and will see you OK once he's harvested the greenhouse.

2. WW is on the verge of resigning due to 'corporate stress'.

3. The next IA will involve all strikers blocking the M4 somewhere near Cardiff, or Bristol. "Bert's Burgers" has been engaged to do the catering.

4. All 11,823 BASSA members have already voted for the next round of IA. The date of the ballot will be announced shortly.

[SamYeager]

DH has a new job with Unite If this rumour is true then I wonder if this Unite's way of easing DH out of the branch secretary role?

[Entaxei]

Going by the posts by ptc on the main thread, the biggest problem that BA has is the use of codes that can identify temps and non-strikers on a flight and at a briefing. Somebody appears to have been extremely stupid or with malice aforethought in allocating codes of this nature.

Unless this is changed and all briefings are carried out under the charge of the Captain, nothing will change and the whole mess will continue to fester.

Just a view - rant over!!

[ChicoG]

From another BASSA pseudo-apologist on t'other thread:

Even throughout this lengthy dispute, where some crew who are virtually bankrupt, with huge levels of stress, most still manage to provide outstanding customer service with a smile on their face.

Yes, and some of them were surly, miserable, lazy and downright unwelcoming people before the dispute even started.

[Ancient Observer]

Is there anyone else to be rude about??

The bassajunta-lovers have a brilliant record for upsetting people.
Obviously, they are rude about pilots...............who wouldn't be.
Then, they pick on the fellow Unite members, the Engineers, for their naturally awful maintenance of BA's planes.
Not happy with that, their Hyacinth Bucket snobbery comes in, and they slag-off (sic) the baggage handlers.
They've p***ed off any customers with 12 days of Christmas action.
They've compared themselves to the armed forces of the USA battling against the Japanese, so they upset both the Japanese and the USA.
Next come any participants in the Vietnam war..............

So they are running out of people to be rude about.

I can just imagine them sitting around in their bunker, excitedly talking about their new campaign. The junta are running out of ideas............they are desperate...........

...........and the Tomato comes up with, "let's be rude about McDonalds employees................after all, they do a more important job than us, work much harder, and get paid less, so let's be rude about them"....................and the duty poster over on the crew site is told to go and slag off the McDonalds workers.

"They could earn as much in a McDonalds."

Who to be rude about in next week's instalment? Can we wait?

[MPN11]

I'm surprised they haven't blamed the Labour Party, the Conservatives, the Lib-Dem, the Greens, the SNP, UKIP and the "Mainly-Zulu Inkatha Party" [of fond memory*].

Surely at least one of them could be held collectively responsible for failing to put pressure on WW? :}



[* one of those Media-created mandatory adjectives, like "giant" Hercules transport aircraft].

[call100]

This thread gets more amusing......Posters just being as silly and abusive as those they mock......
Rumour fuelling without a shred of evidence....
Perhaps the discussion should stick with the facts and maybe posters should act as they seem to want BASSA posters to act.... Lead by example??

But, then again, if it's all that fills lives I suppose it should be forgiven.:E

:ouch::ouch:

[Litebulbs]

Well said.

[fincastle84]

Perhaps the discussion should stick with the facts

If Bassa had done that over the years they wouldn't be in the mess in which they now find themselves.:{

[call100]

So you are complaining about their actions but condoning the same action by posters on here?

[Phil Rigg]

Just heard on BBC News 24 that Arthur Scargill has been expelled from the NUM.

I hope for CC's sake it doesn't take them 30 years to resolve this dispute in a similar fashion ......... !!

[Ancient Observer]

call100
Do chill out, old boy. I've watched this dispute for 20 months now, and generally I have made sensible comments.
Importing a little Jet Blast in to a currently boring thread is no bad thing.

As to "humour" - where is Tracey Island? Google maps denies its existence. It wouldn't be a humourous reference to a cartoon, would it.

[MPN11]

Agreeing with AO, as I seem to be one of the 'accused'.

Putting on my sack-cloth and ashes and not even trying to be amusing any more. :(

[fincastle84]

So you are complaining about their actions but condoning the same action by posters on here?
I think baggersup has answered you far more elegantly than I! Good post baggers.:ok:

[call100]

I think baggersup has answered you far more elegantly than I! Good post baggers.:ok:
Not really eh? Two wrongs don't make a right....still.
I never said that people did not have a right to feel aggrieved....So his post was lengthy and not needed.
Nothing has changed...
Oh yes, to confirm I am not backing BASSA in this dispute as I think their behaviour lost them the right of any backing.....

[Dawdler]

I see on the other thread that somebody has woken up Miss M. She is back spouting the same old same old, but with a degree more vitriol this time. Anyone apparently who signed the BA deal has signed away their job. The only way to save those same jobs it seems is the strike. Other posters have tried to reason that the strike weapon in this situation is a busted flush. But apparently everyone else is wrong, including of course the pilots, who will not be geting any service from this young lady. It is such a pity, because she could be a valuable member of crew, having several languages and years of seniority with the resultant experience, so sadly we may not see her bright smile and her highly coloured eye make up on flights in the future.

[Neptunus Rex]

Pram toy event
Tomato warsBaggers, how very succinct and how true.

[ChicoG]

I suppose times are hard, with poor old cabin crew having to resort to all means to top up their "meagre" salaries. Sadly all that money he spent on contraband went down the drain (or rather into the incinerator).


BA cabin crew member smuggled cigarettes
By Suzy Talbot
August 24, 2010

A BRITISH Airways cabin crew member has been given a community sentence for smuggling tobacco into the country.

Christakis Lambrou, from Lansdowne Road in Staines, admitted being knowingly concerned in the fraudulent evasion of the duty chargeable and was sentenced to 120 hours of community service on August 20 at Isleworth Crown Court.

Customs officers examined Lambrou's car on August 15 last year and discovered six kilos of hand rolling tobacco and 2,000 cigarettes.

He was arrested, interviewed and subsequently charged. A further 11,760 cigarettes and five kilos of hand rolling tobacco were found at his house in Staines. He claimed he had bought them for his brother and brother's friend.

John Cooper, assistant director of criminal investigation for HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) , said: “Lambrou abused his position of trust as a cabin crew manager to evade UK duty.

"Lambrou’s actions cost the UK vital tax revenue, worth around £18,000, and this is why HMRC works closely with UKBA (Border Agency) officers to disrupt this kind of criminal operation."

The cigarettes have been shredded and burned at a power station to fuel the National Grid.

[fincastle84]

As posted by Timothy Claypole on the CC forum............
Aug 25th, 2010 by admin

http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/NewsPictures/x.jpg A member has suggested that we dedicate our meeting to our sacked and suspended colleagues.
As a symbol of our solidarity with them, we would ask that you consider wearing either an item of yellow clothing, a yellow ribbon or a yellow flower.
All the yellow flowers will be collected at the end of the meeting and taken to Manchester, where they will then be placed as a tribute, on the memorial for the crew and passengers that lost their lives in the Manchester air disaster.
We look forward to seeing there...In yellow!

Have these Bassa m*rons now lost all touch with reality?! This is totally sick & disrespectful to both the survivors & also the families of those who lost their lives in the MAN disaster.

[MPN11]

Dare we guess that Christakis Lambrou is one of those who has been suspended/sacked by the wicked BA?

@ Finky ... agree completely. A stupid and insensitive idea, which is therefore eagerly taken up by BASSA. :yuk:

[Tigger4Me]

Who woke up Miss M?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see on the other thread that somebody has woken up Miss M.

Has she really woken up or has her user ID merely been loaned to others who the mods have seen through and closed down? The BS train rumbles on.

[Skipness One Echo]

This madness must end. Taking yellow items of clothing from the industrial dispute to the air disaster memorial is mental, really, properly utterly barking. How can rational people not be shamed by this "leadership"?
Have they no sense of decency? I have a six your old nephew who has more social skills than this rabble!

[MIDLGW]

Does anyone know someone involved in the care taking of the memorial in MAN? Maybe an alert to such a person would be appropriate to ensure no access for union loonies?

[Llademos]

Especially insensitive considering that all four cabin crew of the flight (two survived, two died) were awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal for their bravery and devotion to duty - hardly something that can be said for the BASSAmentalists..

I hope the press gets hold of this idiotic stunt and exposes it for what it is.

Ll

[west lakes]

Does anyone know someone involved in the care taking of the memorial


I know somebody that might, message sent.

[MPN11]

@ Skipness ... in fairness, they did say they would take yellow flowers to MAN.

So, not quite a "Football Fan Memorial", but still an extremely distasteful linkage between a Strike Meeting and the MAN memorial.

[Ancient Observer]

In my earlier post, (post 1573) I tried to draw a word picture of the junta sitting around their table, (presumably covered in tomatoes) becoming desperate that they could not think of anyone else to insult.
They decided to release their insults to the hard-working staff of MacDonald's early yesterday.

Later in the same day they decided to insult anyone who has ever been impacted by an Aviation accident by trying to link their strike to the Manchester disaster.

Like baggers, I know rather a lot about Employee Relations. However, in 35 years of exposure to that set of dark arts, I have never heard something so awful. The Iwo Jima stunt is spectacularly insensitive...............this is even worse.
What next? (I can imagine it, but I'm not willing to write it down).

[west lakes]

YELLOW FLOWERS

From the C/C thread


An organisation that use yellow:

Marie Curie Cancer Care | Welcome to Marie Curie Cancer Care (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mariecurie.org.uk%2F&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fcabin-crew%2F418645-british-airways-vs-bassa-current-airline-staff-only-post5893545.html%23post5893545)


as a cancer sufferer myself I am absolutely incencesd at thia latest idea from folk that, in my opinion, are rapidly losing it!

[ChicoG]

Has she really woken up or has her user ID merely been loaned to others who the mods have seen through and closed down? The BS train rumbles on.

Judging by the same feverish approach, it's the same person.

(1) Post a great big steaming load of BASSA guano.
(2) Solicit a great load of responses basically telling you that you're just a twerp (and why).
(3) Take a carefully selected sentence or two out of said replies - and out of context - and snivel some more; aggregate 2-3 of them in each post.
(4) Go to (1).

Yes, it's the same brain dead poster alright. With absolutely nothing new to say, and absolutely no evidence to back up any of their tired, repetitive and exceedingly dull claims.

:}

[Diplome]

Personally, I wish to thank those posters who indulged in a bit of humor. It brought a smile to my face.

Ancient Observer: I read your "Who will they insult next?" post AFTER I had learned of the horrendous "yellow flower" stunt. I laughed and thought to myself "Wait til he hears what they have come up with." As cynical as I have become regarding BASSA's behavior even I couldn't see this one coming.

Interesting that Mr. Francis, the individual BASSA wanted to take over negotiations on behalf of BA, is now being denigrated in BASSA statements as "Billy" and is out to "destroy the airline".

Mixed Fleet seems to be creating an atmosphere of desperation among the most militant of Cabin Crew. It is possible that a few are finally learning that they are a "face of BA" that many would rather not see?

[Entaxei]

I feel a touch of confusion coming on with regard to the Manchester memorial referred to by Bassa.

I suggest that the Man United Supporters Club should be alerted to this possible action by Bassa, on either the memorial to the Munich Air disaster or the more recent Manchester disaster, either of which would be a disgraceful insult to Manchester and all who died.

I know that the Mods don't like the use of the vernacular on this site - but these creatures really are Sc*m.

[Neptunus Rex]

Is it not somewhat ironic that yellow sashes were first worn by the Puritan Roundheads in the English Civil War. We are now to be subjected to the indecorous sight of BASSA militants who choose an alternative lifestyle, vying with each other as to who can disport themselves in the most outrageous yellow costumes.
Farce, pure farce.

[west lakes]

Don't know about anyone else but I've e-mailed the Marie Curie Trust to inform them of this action and suggesting they talk to Unite!!

Might contact the press as well!!

[BillS]

http://www.thefloweringgarden.com/pics/tomato-2.jpg

[Ancient Observer]

BillS
Thank you for that. Brilliant. I'm glad I didn't have a drink in my hand when I saw that - it would have been all over the keyboard.

[ChicoG]

Had BASSA organised a private ceremony to remember their colleagues on the anniversary, it would not have looked so cynical.

This pathetic drivel, on the other hand, is insulting to the memory of all who died in this tragedy.

They should be ashamed of themselves. I hope never to meet the kind of idiot who would try and justify this.

They are inconsiderate, arrogant, selfish :mad: s.

[kenhughes]

While they are in Manchester, they could troll up the Motorway to Stockport. I believe there's a nice little memorial park there that they could desecrate with their presence. :ugh:

[Litebulbs]

I support the idea of wearing some token to refect there is support for colleagues who have been sacked or suspended pending investigation. The choice and actions have not been thought through however. Some may say that that is a common theme through this dispute.

[MPN11]

Hi, Litebulbs ... that's a fair comment. "Support for those sacked or suspended pending investigation".

Innocent until proven guilty ... a noble ideal. :ok:

Oh, hang on, some have been found guilty, haven't they?
Where does Mr Christakis Lambrou fit into that noble ideal?
Is he sacked, or simply suspended for evading Customs duty on a reasonably large scale? Or neither of the above?
Still, he should obviously be supported as well ... perhaps with a cloud of tobacco smoke at the MAN Memorial?

You are absolutely correct in one respect ... The choice and actions have not been thought through however.

[Neptunus Rex]

How about a recreation of the Peterloo Massacre?Top idea, Baggers. BASSA's racecourse venue should provide ample space for a cavalry charge!

[call100]

Hi, Litebulbs ... that's a fair comment. "Support for those sacked or suspended pending investigation".

Innocent until proven guilty ... a noble ideal. :ok:

Oh, hang on, some have been found guilty, haven't they?
Where does Mr Christakis Lambrou fit into that noble ideal?
Is he sacked, or simply suspended for evading Customs duty on a reasonably large scale? Or neither of the above?
Still, he should obviously be supported as well ... perhaps with a cloud of tobacco smoke at the MAN Memorial?

You are absolutely correct in one respect ...
I don't think his sacking had anything to do with IA do you?
Regarding the yellow memorial idea....Well someone obviously is not thinking. Then again that seems to be endemic at BASSA at the moment.
What I find amusing is that they are not getting any 'Guidance' from full time officials. Or they are in a position to ignore it. The whole set up seems to work in a totally different way from any other Union organisation I've been involved with....The usual checks and balances seem to be circumvented.
I don't know enough detail of the disciplinary charges/circumstances to pass comment on the individual cases, especially before they have been through due process. However, like Lightbulbs, I do think that showing support is a legitimate form of action. The format of that action needs a lot more thought in this case.....

[ChicoG]

I'm just waiting for Duncan Thickett to write his next piece talking about the brutal bullying of the criminal should he lose his job (which he deserves).

[Juan Tugoh]

I suspect that after being found guilty of smuggling this gentleman will no longer be eligible for an airside pass and will, therefore have terminated his own employment.

[Ancient Observer]

The monologues from the junta, and the conduct of meetings might be influenced, as suggested by another poster earlier, by the phases of the moon, but I suspect that the results of Southampton FC are the real issue. (Diplome - translating for you, that's a lowly English soccer club).

They were pathetic last year, and this year they have only won one competitive game - against lowly Bournemouth.
Before the September gathering of the cult, Southampton are at home versus Rochdale. I guess if they lose that one, the fraternal gathering will not be a happy place.

[manintheback]

By and large I suspect the management and a certain small %age of CC deserve each other but can this following quote from HotWings really be true

I see from the news that the latest BASSAmentalist tactic is to play the ditching PRA mid-flight and then blame the dozy "flight deck" for pushing the wrong button.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


I assume that means terrifying a plane load of passengers in the middle of the night?. Just a word of caution, dont let me be on a plane when this happens :mad:

[ExecClubPax]

'Brace for impact - we're about to crash' Terrified plane passengers hear crash warning by mistake | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306627/Brace-impact--crash-Terrified-plane-passengers-hear-crash-warning-mistake.html)

[Timothy Claypole]

How about a recreation of the Peterloo Massacre? Hey, whilst they are in Manchester....how can they miss an opportunity to be aligned with worker victims of such worth?

There have already been frequent comparisons between BASSA members and the Tolpuddle Martyrs on the crews own forums!

can this following quote from HotWings really be true

I don't think so. I believe it was fat finger syndrome as someone attempted to fix the IFE (and no, it wasn't the pilots as the Currant Bun is reporting).

[GCI35]

Reuters reported the inadvertant playing of the pre-recorded ditching tape whilst over the North Sea en route to HKG.
Not being ex-crew, I'm not sure who hit the wrong button but I can only hope this wasn't part of "you know who's" threatened guerilla tactics. That on top of wearing yellow in memory of the Airtours accident in Manchester 20 odd years ago would be too much to stomach.

[Juan Tugoh]

I can categorically state that the Ditching Pre-Recorded Announcement cannot be triggered from the flight deck of a BA 747-400 and this was not triggered by a pilot as is being reported in the Sun and Mail. The PRA is a function that is controlled by the cabin crew along with all the other 'canned' announcements you hear on a BA jumbo. I very much doubt that this was a deliberate act, someone on the cabin crew of this service made an error, and is probably mortified by it.

[Ancient Observer]

I enjoyed this post from the other place..........

"The BA CC strike WAS a success. No one "ruined" it for you and yet still you didn't get the result you wanted.

Over 7000 crew went on strike according to BASSA.
Only 26 crew turned up at CRC for the first wave according to BASSA.
Most of the departing flights were empty according to .....
Some aircraft were just doing circuits, according to.....
The whole operation was pretty much wrecked, according to.........

That looks like a pretty successful strike to me. "

I guess it just means that BA, BAA, the CAA and all those passengers from all over the world were lying, as BASSA always tells the truth.

[dilldog01]

The deranged Miss M has posted another missive to the nation over on the CC forum....there appears to be no point in replying to this "person" as they are so far away from reality probably only Mystic Meg would be able to contact them

[MPN11]

BA has never been in its fight for survival. We all know it was a trick played by our CEO to send us a message. Many voted for industrial action which indicates that there's something wrong yet not willing to make the sacrifices involved in going on strike but relying on the rest of us to do it for them.

Poor Miss_M. Completely detached from reality. A nice lady [we exchanged PMs some time ago] but with some form of mental block. Very sad.

[AA SLF]

This is probably a "cultural" post from me. In the CC Thread Miss M posted the following -
That's why we need a watertight agreement and a say about route transfers.

I am amazed that a relatively LOW LEVEL employee feels that they should be the "Manager of BA" and "decide the operations" of a company this size. What is it about the English culture that bottom end folks believe that THEY should have the FINAL say about "how" their company runs it's business? AMAZING ATTITUDE! ! !

Taking an isolated example, you say? NO - remember Mr Holley - who was fired because HE DECIDED that he would do Union business rather than the work he had been assigned by his employer.

Another isolated example as well you say?? NO - most ALL of the BASSA supporters at that time posted support for Mr Holley and demanded his TOTAL re-instatement. Simply amazing attitude by MANY people!

[ChicoG]

MissM excels herself:

Don't you find it interesting that this is the first time ever in this company during a dispute where crew have actually been suspended or dismissed? That itself indicates what sort of management we are dealing with.

I don't find it interesting, I find it laudable. And it does indicate what sort of management BASSA are dealing with: one that isn't going to put up with any more of their crap.

As for:

See some of you on the 6th. I'm thinking of putting on yellow eyeshadow!

And wouldn't she just look as ridiculous as she sounds?

I'd love to see those photos.

:E

[call100]

There have already been frequent comparisons between BASSA members and the Tolpuddle Martyrs on the crews own forums!
For them to compare indicates a complete ignorance of the Tolpuddle story. Shame, perhaps some research would give them something to reflect on....

[AlpineSkier]

For any who don't know this is the self-funded action by crew who have lost ST to mount legal action to regain it.

Would anyone who reads/has insight into relevants forums help me with this ?


Since this action to retore ST is something that absolutely ought to be the responsibility of the union, could you tell me what crew are saying to their representatives about the fact that they - and not the union - are being forced to shell out to at least attempt to regain it ?

I would expect, logically, that they ought to be burying their reps under ordure fo doing nothing and saying nothing substantial. Is this the case ?

If yes, is it leading anyone to question the integrity of BASSA ?

[LD12986]

AS - Unite has claimed that it is to also litigate against the removal of ST, as well as the crew-funded case. Though, there has been no confirmation that anything has actually happened, only public statements of intention.

[dilldog01]

Miss M's throw away jovial comment about putting on yellow eye shadow shows either someone who either gives no proper thought to what they are writing before posting or someone who doesn't care that this meeting has been linked to a substantial loss of life :mad::ugh:

Given the events in the past these people have linked their dispute to (Iwo Jima etc) one really does have to wonder about the moral standards (if any)of the people concerned

[Snas]

Despite my best efforts to get the union to acknowledge the fact that no one in my household are still members of the union resulting in ballot and newsletters like this (http://pdfcast.org/pdf/unite-newsletter-crap) still being received.
You can download the whole PDF via a button at the bottom of linked page.

This one is such a cracker I decided to share it with other non-members.!

We have everything this time, ABBA, Vietnam, George Patton, The Argentinean Missing, Psycho the movie and much much more….

But alas, little information of any sensible substance. Indeed it's quite terrible and Unite should know better, it's childish and unprofessional at best and a total disgrace at worst.

[MIDLGW]

The contents of that PDF file = vile.

I wonder if the sacked crew in the picture were asked permission?

I can't say more, as I'll get banned from here for foul language. :suspect::=:mad::ugh::yuk:

[fincastle84]

What emotional, moronic claptrap in the newsletter. It still amazes me that BA ever recruited such people in the first place.

[dilldog01]

Now comparing sacked crew to the missing in Argentina ????..I think my question wondering if these people from BASSA have any moral standards has been answered...clearly none what so ever :mad: :ugh:

[Neptunus Rex]

Fincastle, me old mate, my take on this is that the BASSA senior reps, who have a huge vested interest in maintaining the status quo, could not put a coherent sentence together. Instead, they are paying unemployed English graduates to write their copy for them, probably with a bonus for the most vitriolic, sensationalist rabble-rousing vernacular possible.
No doubt a suitable apprenticeship for a tabloid journalist!

[notlangley]

That newsletter says that there is to be a Joint Union Meeting on 6 September at Kempton Park


British Airways CEO is simply not interested in a different deal, he prefers a strike and he wants it now - as soon as possible.


If he does not, he will get his strike, but not necessarily at a time that is so convenient for him. Make sense?

It seems to me that excuses are being cobbled up to explain why no Industrial Action will take place before the upcoming Union elections.

[fincastle84]

No doubt a suitable apprenticeship for a tabloid journalist!

Assuming that they are going to work for either the Daily Mirror or the Star!

(Hope all is well with you in paradise.)

[MPN11]

@ Finky and Neptune ... what price the concept that there's a close link somewhere to the Socialist Workers' Party and their copywriters? ;)

The disconnect with reality, and the attitude towards management in any form, and the distortion/lies, and general hyperbole?

Just a personal thought ... no substance for the allegation, of course.

[Entaxei]

Some odd points that arise from reading the above;

In so many words they say that the union has been decimated and is no longer an effective organisation and, that there are effectively no longer any reps. So far - so good - but then they ask for full or part time volunteers to be reps, no mention of any ideas of election of new reps, so the existing power structure still holds sway and cannot be challenged and nothing will change - so go forward suckers and do your duty!! (without pay?) - and vote as you are told to with a democratic show of hands.

It said that every dismissal or disciplinary action is one sided and totally wrong, wild generalities are being thrown around. Could we therefore see in print, from Unite or Bassa, details of the actions and reasons behind these actions, signed by the persons dismissed or disciplined and the penalties applied, so that we can better judge ourselves. Or of course a brief statement by the 'wronged' parties stating that they did not wish to pursue the matter any further.

I would assume that the idea of Bassa or Unite having a office of any sort in T5 would be totally unacceptable to BA, and that in any event BA's approval would have to be given before any tenancy in T5 was agreed.

Would I be right in assuming that the episode with the milk on bunks and, that of the ditching tape, constitutes industrial sabotage within civil aviation and as such warrants a prison sentence, which also has ramifications for anyone seeking to alter evidence and witnesses statements to any investigating body? :E

These are just thoughts arising of course, which may be simply due to the rather unprofessional nature of the communication. :rolleyes:

[LD12986]

Re: The ditching tape. I think this was more cock-up than conspiracy. I agree with the rest of your points.

[leiard]

We seem to get a lot of comments from BASSA members but never hear anything from Amicus members. From what we read the two groups do not seem to agree on anything, Are they happy be associated with what is being published by BASSA,

I wonder if any Amicus members would like comment.

[notlangley]

Entaxei says (my bold emphasis)
no mention of any ideas of election of new reps, so the existing power structure still holds sway and cannot be challenged and nothing will change

No doubt the convincing argument will be that WW looks favourably on the idea that new representatives come into being by the system of elections.

[RTR]

It seems to me that the BASSAmentalists are demonstrating more and more the puerile children they are. How can we determine anything else? Their childish drivel is an indication that they are lost for words - words that have any meaning and sense. A psychiatrist would have a rough time time trying to unravel their twisted minds as they resort to tactics of the desperate trying to impress. Holley was fond of childishness and some like MissM have defensive wall around them in an attempt to protect themselves from the reality of BASSA's forthcoming demise, with nowhere to go because there is no place to run. The door has been bolted and the horse is long gone.

They will play out this fiasco as long as there are a few of them, each giving sustenance to the other. A lost cause. A lost fight and a bunch of lost souls.

[Litebulbs]

It seems to me that the BASSAmentalists are demonstrating more and more the puerile children they are.

But that is a grown up comment?

[ChicoG]

Notice the big plug for "Lenny McCluskey" in that pathetic so-called newsletter.

Obviously 70's style socialists have BASSA firmly by the throat.

I actually want the numpty to win. I think being led by a clueless moron like McWitless will eventually result in a huge backlash against this kind of suicidal unionism, and perhaps lead to a purge of these dinosaurs and their layabout, dole-scrounging Socialist Workers Party infiltrators.

[fergineer]

The switch cover in question would have a copper wire threaded through two holes. This thin gauge wire means that it should not be able to be operated by error. If the wire locking was done by a special set of pliers it should not be able to be undone and redone without anyone noticing, If however it had been done by hand which is a more probable way of doing it, it could be undone and redone afterwards. Hopefully the crew should have noticed this.
Hope that helps.

[Snas]

Notice the big plug for "Lenny McCluskey" in that pathetic so-called newsletter.

Notice that his name is spelt incorectly in that advert also.

[ChicoG]

Notice that his name is spelt incorectly (sic) in that advert also.

Some people refewse to use there spilling chucker.

:E

I have a question about the "newsletter". It would seem that Nicky Marcus was suspended, charged with gross misconduct and faces dismissal. This because she spoke to the crew involved in the famous onboard vandalism incident and, according to BASSA, advised them to "stick to the facts".

Does this mean that she meant "stick to her version of the facts" or "don't tell them anything" and was therefore the rep suspended for interfering with communications between BA and its crew, once BA found out she was trying to help conceal the truth?

Of course it does. It was a rhetorical question.

Another BASSAmentalist gone hopefully.

Oh and finally: I read this on some site where they like to talk about flyers, and they were commenting on the BASSA response to it. This was quoted from a "forum".

I enjoy reading every one of the Newsletters. They are always so well written with insight and subtle irony. This time, it's bold as brass and a hopefully a slap in the face for those that haven't quite got it yet. I loved the facts about the 75% of "eligible" crew who went on strike. Made me feel so much better. This is SO. not over. As XXXX we are in the majority and this gives me the confidence for the next round. Bring it on and thank you to what is left of our loyal and brave Reps who put it together.

Completely insane, no? I daresay some of our CC friends with access to the hell that is a BASSA forum could probably find more rabid examples of blind, competely misguided loyalty.

Shouldn't be too hard to finish off this bunch of zombies.

[call100]

We seem to get a lot of comments from BASSA members but never hear anything from Amicus members. From what we read the two groups do not seem to agree on anything, Are they happy be associated with what is being published by BASSA,

I wonder if any Amicus members would like comment.
Of course there are no longer any Amicus members. (End of the official line)......The divide is still there because a lot of people joined Amicus because they were not satisfied with the results of being represented by the T&G. Others of course were from engineering backgrounds. Amicus was always a moderate TU.
They see this as a T&G/BASSA mess. A lot of the other sections who have reached agreements are from Amicus backgrounds.
Most members loyalties end with the the Local full time official or rep and are only interested in their own workplace. Most Amicus members away from Heathrow (Like the vast majority of the nation) have no interest in the dispute and indeed know nothing about it.
From a personal point of view publications, like the one under discussion at the moment, are an embarrassment. To compare anyone working in companies like BA with oppressed peoples who's struggles are a matter of life and death is absurd.

[Betty girl]

Imposition of crewing levels and the suspension of some Amicus and Bassa reps for fighting in a car park on BA property led to the two sides uniting and probably pressure from the parent union Unite.

I was an Amicus member of 21 years since it started as Cabin crew 89 back in 1989. Bassa longhaul reps broke away, on mass, to start up Cabin crew 89 because they could no longer work with the more militant shorthaul reps. With the support of BALPA the pilot's union CC89 came about based at BALPA's offices. The few remaining Bassa longhaul reps continued as BASSA worldwide and have over the years had a feud with the reps that were previously their collegues. Later on CC89 became part of Amicus and changed it's name to Amicus. Now Amicus and the TGWU have joined to become Unite and this has caused problems for the more moderate Amicus reps.

I am so saddened that out of this mess I seem to have lost the representation of the Amicus reps and I therefore resigned from Unite as a result.

[Neptunus Rex]

As the BASSA High Command is so fond of military analogies, her are some quotes for them to mull over:

There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry.
George Armstrong Custer (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgearms182145.html)

We shall meet again before long to march to new triumphs.
Giuseppe Garibaldi (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/giuseppega373970.html)

The only thing that matters is that we stand firm.
Heinrich Himmler (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/heinrichhi362575.html)

If our most highly qualified General Staff officers had been told to work out the most nonsensical high level organization for war which they could think of, they could not have produced anything more stupid that that which we have at present.
Claus von Stauffenberg (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/clausvonst179085.html)

But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/i/isorokuyam224336.html)

[Mr Optimistic]

Today Duncan Holley BASSA Branch Secretary was sacked from British Airways as a Eurofleet CSD.

This has happened solely because of his other role as the branch secretary of our union and stemmed from a “new” interpretation by cabin crew management surrounding the agreed rights of recognized union officers to be released to undertake union duties over a handful of days in late December, last year.

Duncan is a man that has encompassed the core values of our union for longer than most people can remember!

Something you learn very early as a union rep is that it’s easy to have opinions. It’s less easy to stand up for them. It’s easy to recount what you would tell management to do and where to ‘shove it’ in a bar or restaurant down route. It’s less than easy in real life. Often those that shout the loudest are furthest from the fight.

Duncan Holley was an exception to that rule. He has always had the strongest opinions and principles possible, but at the same time, he was what you would have expected him to be - utterly fearless and unafraid to represent your views to our management, and if they were not prepared to listen, then he would make sure they did.

There are no shades of grey with Duncan. He is “black and white”. If it’s right, it’s right and if it’s wrong, then it’s wrong and he never hesitates to tell anybody who needs to know that.

He inherited those principles from his predecessor Mike Coleman- who was also sacked by British Airways around the time of the 1997 dispute. He inherited a strong union but under his leadership there is no doubt, we are even stronger.

His integrity and strength, but above all courage is second to none. Duncan is a pillar of this union, and without leaders like him, this union would not function.

Despite the huge shadow this has cast over both him and the toll on his family for nearly 6 months, he has never once put his interest above the interest of our members or asked for any extra consideration. If a deal could be found that protected you our members he was content with that, regardless of his own fate. He has always put the interests of something he believes in with all his heart first - he believes that cabin crew are good people, who deserve the best. He does his utmost to try and get that for you - Ultimately it has cost him his job, but being the man he is, he would have it no other way.

People often ask “what has the union ever done for me?”
Take a look at Duncan Holley and you will see exactly what the union and its reps are doing for you! Take a moment and watch the “something inside so strong” video. Reflect on the image of Duncan on a spring morning less than two years ago and see what he has now given for this union. Nobody could have given or sacrificed more, without people like Duncan, we simply would not have a union.

[MPN11]

I am moved by that statement. Indeed, I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.

:}

[Dawdler]

MPN11
I regard myself a lesser person for having failed to aspire to Mr Holley's high standards of integrity and industry.Particularly in view of the statement below posted elsewhere. In which DH "names and shames" a previous colleague for daring to have a view that differs from his own.


Fill Brancis

Our “friend” Del C Diner, aka xxxxx xxxxx has now taken the thread that he started with the responses to BA and one crew member has since been suspended, this ex BASSA rep really is the lowest of the low. I have contacted him to let him know how I feel and predictably he took my message straight to Tony McCarthy. He sort of forgot that BA have no control over me any more.

Not only did he strike break for personal promotion but he then came on this Forum and started a taunting thread. He then took some replies to BA and caused someone to be suspended. In all my flying career his actions are the nastiest and lowest I have ever encountered.
Please no one respond to this message other than a bump because as sure as eggs are eggs xxxx xxxx will report you and cost you your job. Just ensure his name is “known”.
Finally can I say Hi to Tony McCarthy as I know he will be reading this message very shortly. How’s the bullying going Tony? How’s the union busting going? By the way don’t get too cosy with xxxx xxxx he’s a bit of a snake. Regards to Willie – Love Duncan

[Juan Tugoh]

Mr Optimistic was reproducing a BASSA communication that was put out on the day DH was sacked. It may have even been written by DH himself.

What is clear though is the DH did not learn from his predecessor's errors. They were both sacked whilst BASSA was in dispute with BA.

[Mr Optimistic]

It is a direct copy off the web: try google search. Found it rather inspiring myself. Rorkes Drift came to mind, or the Light Brigade.

[LD12986]

Here is the link to the original "tribute" to Duncan:

http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Duncan_Holley_06_04_10.doc

[RTR]

All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.

This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.

[jimtherev]

See where you're coming from RTR, but don't tar 'em all etc. Take f'rinstance Eddy on the other thread who tried at the beginning to write reasonably from a union point of view. But because of his very reasonableness has been vilified by BASSAfolk, semi 'outed' and for whatever reason has decided to transfer to LGW. Litebulbs on this thread, too, has always been reasonable, tho' often tough. Good on 'em - and good luck in your move, Eddy, if you read this.

[YorkshireTyke]

There has been comment regarding the removal of rebate travel facilities from the BA cabin crew members who went on strike, and further comment suggesting that it might be restored only to allow them to commute to work.

Can anyone confirm the present situation, or is it all dependant on a settlement still to be reached ?

Thanks.

[notlangley]

My guess is that you get it immediately. _By immediately I mean when the Union accepts the "Final Offer"._ My guess is that all non-Union members are then given the same offer and if they want the staff travel they accept the offer made personally and individually to them._ But until the Union accepts the "Final Offer" then nothing happens - just a log-jam - all dead wood and no movement._ Perhaps someone who really knows will correct this statement.

[RTR]

jimtherev

You are right of course. It is not fair that some people get mixed up in the sorry excuse for unionism by BASSA. Eddy is indeed a very good example of one who has fair and sensible views and I applaud him. His post on CC against MissM who carries the banner for BASSA and cannot and will not accept anything that is a sound and reasonable opposite to her own view, even an unarguable one, is a classic example of my point. She doesn't just refute opposing arguments she just ignores them and just goes on and on spouting HER view - take it or leave it. THAT, is the type I am referring to.

The latest garbage by Duncan Holley is also an example of a man who cannot and will not listen to other people's views. He is always right.

I really hope that BA are compiling a dossier of all the reps of BASSA who work for them and who have crossed the line. They should then act as positively as they have with others to stop the the smell that is BASSA.

One good point from all of this sadness is that BASSA have learned in no uncertain terms that it is BA who run the airline, NOT BASSA! Unite had better recognize that too. As for 'Lenny McCluskey' I would give him low chance of election now that BASSA want to hold his hand.

[call100]

All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.

This example supports that - but there are thousands he and BASSA have badly let down.
I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements? It doesn't.
Luckily for many TU members they are represented by good, honest, hard working reps who gain the best possible deals for the members (under very hard circumstances these days). You only have to look within BA to see that many agreements have been made without the fuss that this dispute has. It's too convenient for people to have opinions like yours. It saves constructing a reasoned argument I suppose.

[Ancient Observer]

RTR and call100.

Different situations, = different behaviours by reps.
I've worked in a number of different sectors in different countries. Generally, when I have encountered "lay" reps., or employees who act as representatives of their members, they have done so to the best of their abilities.
However, sometimes their behaviour is not for their members, it can be for other reasons. In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep. However, to act as a lay rep in the NUM you had to follow the Scargill line.
My worst experience was of a small group of reps in the Aviation sector. As the individuals concerned had only ever worked in Aviation, and had no experience of work outside Aviation, all they knew about work was from Aviation. They observed the behaviours of others in Aviation, and decided that being a rep was all about maximising their own personal income and power base. The other reps in the Company saw what was going on and did NOT support this small group of reps.
Having gained support in the Company concerned for the need to take action, the Employee Relations Manager, and the managers of these non-reps, removed them one by one from their "rep" positions. Two left the company, one became a very valued contributor to the company.
It can be done, it just takes time and care.

If the Company has real problems, whole Union branches can be transformed by focussed action by the relevant management.. I've seen it done. However, to achieve this requires a book of instructions, way beyond a post on this thread.

[Litebulbs]

So is strong effective representation a bad thing? Obviously, there are going to be some management influenced posts on both of the threads, which is to be expected, but generalised union bashing for the sake of it, serves no purpose. And to suggest that you need to change reps until you get a team that a business wants, is just as bad as having a so called militant branch.

It is all about balance.

[RTR]

I don't think you have either the knowledge or experience to back up that statement. Why does it make you any different from the BASSA people who make ridiculous statements?

I am not in the habit of responding to anyone who assumes that I am talking without experience or knowledge. But what the hell! Firstly, you have chosen to misunderstand what I said. I have specifically pointed AT BASSA - with a general statement on unions that fits the current situation. In BASSA it has been proven time after time that the reps have been self serving indolent individuals and attacked by members with constant references to CSD's/reps who take the best routes and, therefore, no regard for the members. That is fact. Where is the unionism in fighting for the members per se?

In the 70s and 80s in the UK, rather too many reps operated for party political reasons. Scargill is the most famous, but he was a paid TU official, not a rep.

And yet, although it has taken way too long he was, just this week, expelled from the NUM. He was also an indolent self serving person who used the workforce for his own ends. He led them to destruction in effect. Thousands out of work and the mines closed. BASSA would have done that given the opportunity. Now tell me that is not what was in their minds. They wanted to control BA and almost did until WW came along.

My real point is that in spite of BASSA being led by some reps with only themselves grouping to make BA do as they were told, some saw the sense in not following the 'Scargill' line. Now please don't forget the other union leaders like Woodley and Simpson who between them destroyed people's jobs were not party to that. Would that not be the reason why BASSA decided to affiliate themselves with Unite. Now we have Holley and others trying to curry favour with McCluskey - why? The answer is in this paragraph.

Maybe, however, McCluskey if he wins will decide to live in 2010 and leave the 70's behind. As it happens there is more to be gained now if they can see that the bad old days are over and behave as a proper union in sole service of its members and not themselves. But......I wouldn't hold your breath.

[call100]

RTR
What you actually said was All reps and all unionists stand together and let no man put asunder. They lie and cheat for each other, always have and always will.No mention of BASSA.
Scargill has not been expelled from the NUM his voting rights have been taken away as he is only an honorary president.The NUM say that the rules preclude him and others from voting.....So you were wrong to say he had been expelled.

Ancient Observer....The scenario you describe would be from the worse type of management and is more abhorrent than the problem you say it overcomes.
I have always worked with companies and members to get the best for both sides. I would, of course, have had no truck with anyone from the company coming along thinking they could dictate how and why I or any other representatives should think and act. They have managers they can play with like that.
I think this thread indicates that the trouble lies in people who are polarised and unable (from both camps) to understand what exactly the middle ground is. As litebulbs says 'Its all about balance'

I've said before that the general insults towards Union reps and members is short sighted and ignorant. Not understanding that the BASSA case is one section v one employer and stretching opinions of it across the whole TU spectrum is not only non constructive but a waste of time and pointless.

[RTR]

Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306127/Miners-hero-Arthur-Scargill-expelled-union-doesnt-qualify.html)

In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.

[AlpineSkier]

@call100

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."

Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.

Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?

My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?

[TopBunk]

[This is probably more destined for the CC thread, but I am precluded from posting there because of my status] ... but ...

this discussion only appears to continue when someone from the BASSA/Unite side posts a comment elsewhere that results in it being copied in here and a set of comments following.

These people are never going to enter proper debate, as their
agenda is set.

If we were all to ignore the DH/LM/MissM's of this world, this whole dispute would fade into the abyss/hyperspace where it belongs.

By responding, we just feed the trolls and keep up their delusions that the dispute actually continues - it doesn't - BASSA have been destroyed (100%) and they are irrelevant.

So, what I am saying is, by commenting here, is that we give BASSA fuel to continue their campaign, so by stopping rising to the boring same old rhetoric from MissM etc, this thread would soon dry up due lack of interest.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.

[Litebulbs]

Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

Can you show me where call100 did not allow opinion?

What evidence do you have on all reps and unionists being liars and cheats?

[Litebulbs]

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

Well I might get some agreement here. That man is definitely not the future of Unite. I just hope all that can vote in this particular election, do.

[MPN11]

I broadly concur with TopBunk ... there is nothing new to be said until after the meeting/rally/whatever on the 6th.

What is, sadly, happening IMO is that frustration with the ongoing uncertainty is getting people to let of some blasts of ill-directed steam. That doesn't help anyone, and simply leads to more bickering.

What say you? Shall we all sit back quietly for a week, until there's something new and meaningful [or otherwise] to discuss?

[call100]

Ah call100

It would seem that you were hiding your union credentials and fighting as all union reps fight and not allow anyone an opinion that conflicts with your own.

I wasn't wrong to say that Scargill had been expelled. But you can certainly chastise the Mail if you wish.
Miners' hero Arthur Scargill expelled from union because he doesn't qualify | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306127/Miners-hero-Arthur-Scargill-expelled-union-doesnt-qualify.html)

In my experience I stand by the statement about union reps (and shop stewards) standing together. They always have although occasionally some like Simpson put their foot in and invite the Socialist Working Party into a private meeting. That is not unionism. That was crass stupidity and embarrassed ACAS and BA, especially when he twittered all through the meeting!! Anyway, as you are obviously a staunch union man there is no further argument - it will be too one sided for me I'm afraid.

Gains knowledge from Daily mail! Note for future reference..Not your fault then...
You are wrong about it being one sided (not like you to be wrong!). For the record I am not in the same camp as Scargill.
The Socialist workers party were not invited to the meeting they gate crashed. (Ooops wrong again)...
I have never hidden any Union credentials and made it clear where I'm coming from.(Oh dear! Wrong again)
I have not supported the BASSA dispute and have on several occasions criticised their methods. (wrong of you again!!). So, no, we do not always agree and therefore do not always stand together regardless of the issue.
If I was you I'd stop digging, but I doubt that will happen.

AlpineSkier @call100

I generally agree with you about the generalisation, but some commentary is valid when it incorporates Len mcCluskey who was prominent in the multi-page UNITE flyer.

I recall that early on in this dispute ( and this is from memory) he said something like " I've been involved in an lot of strikes.............."

Now this may just have been blow-hard nonsense of the type also used by politicians when talking to their faithful, but I got the feeling that he does see strike action as the real power of unions instead of negotiation and the desired outcome being a win for the workers with a bloody nose for the "bosses" rather than a negotiated settlement.

Can you tell me perhaps if there has been any discussion in TU circles why McC disappeared so quickly from the BA/BASSA fray ?

My cynical view is that when he saw it was heading towards a rout he pulled strings and , as a candidate for the top job, was allowed to retire gracefully without having this rotting albatross hanging round his neck. Am I warm ?
I doubt that McCluskey will win the leadership. but if he should it will not be with my vote. From a personal point of view, it has never bothered me who led the Union. They had little influence or effect on anything in my workplace in 30 years. All the hard work was done by reps and local FTO's.
As has you say, at that level everything is Political. It has little to do with day to day work negotiations any more than who wins the General Election. I have never used a Political view to interfere with a negotiation as I have never just voted for one party out of blind loyalty.
I don't think the majority of Union members (Any Union) could name the people at the top and I'm sure they are not interested.
So even when commenting about McCluskey it is not fair to generalise. I realise that different strokes for different folks is apt in situations like this and that there are many different opinions. We will never all agree, what a dull world it would be if we did??!

[Entaxei]

Having just read the thread BA - Singapore, regarding the crew being too busy discussing the strikes and the BA-Bassa situation, than to provide a proper service and attend to the customers - ('in so many words'; in case of any picking nits being about ;)) - BA should bring in the following changes.

Instruct all uniformed staff that only the standard uniform may be worn - any deviation from this, such as Bassa lanyards, to be replaced with the correct item in exchange for the non standard item - staff not allowed to commence work until any non standard items replaced.

All briefings to be carried out under the authority and presence of the Captain, which will also help to bind the entire crew as one team entity. CSD's and SCCM's to ensure that the uniform standard is maintained at all times.

I firmly believe that this would help bring about a new team spirit and identify and remove some of the festering diversive influences currently at work. :ok:

[Fly380]

An excellent post on the other thread by Colonel White. In my opinion of course.:ok:

[Entaxei]

Just read the latest instructions to the masses from DH on the other thread, apart from the usual threats etc., one thing appears to be emerging - a true Basil Fawlty style "Zis Iss Your Furhrer Speaking" - trouble is he means it - which seems to be an escalation of manner to one which I would expect to be shown in someone with serious mental problems. Although many have previously made comments about 'losing it', I believe that now he has and the sooner Unite disband Bassa the better, before the calls are made to go to war!

[Diplome]

call100:

Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.

The fact that they were also present and welcome at Bedfont says much about BASSA...though its not as if an individual doesn't have a variety of incidents to cause their opinion of BASSA to be one of general disgust.

While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether.

[wiggy]

While I am certainly not anti-union, I do believe the only way Cabin Crew and BA are going to have a hope of success in the future is either a total change out of the militant leaders of BASSA, or the elimination of BASSA altogether

I'm not so pessimistic. I think BASSA are fast becoming an utter irrelevance to BA, if they are not so already... some of their members are still having the odd kick, usually to try and wind up their most hated foe (the pilots), but only the most tunnel visioned of their members can believe they now have the industrial muscle to bring about the downfall of BA or a change in BA's CEO. BASSA has squandered all it's political leverage, quite why or how DH is allowed to stay in post, winding up the masses whilst having no "skin in the game" is beyond me. Union rules?????

[RTR]

call100

The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not

From Diplome
Forgive me for being a tad suspicious about the SWP somehow appearing by chance, with knowledge of exactly where to go, immediately after being addressed at their meeting by a BASSA member.

Very true.

Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.

[Litebulbs]

Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.

Calling all reps and unionists liars and cheats will probably bring about a reaction, rather than a debate.

[Juan Tugoh]

I have to agree with Litebulbs here. I would hazard a guess that in Union life, as in normal life, most people are honest and hard working, delivering their very best for the people they represent. There will also be a small minority of rogues, that sadly, is human nature.

What lies in between are those who choose to hold a different set of political ideals to ourselves. That does not make them criminal or negligent, indeed they are often honest and passionate and zealous in their cause.

What is not at issue here is the honesty or integrity of union reps in general. There may be one or two who are rogues, more driven by personal agendas than that of looking after their members best interests. I am sure most here would place DH in this camp, but did he start off that way off that way or has his ill judged actions pushed him into self interest?

You simply cannot go from the specific to the general and hope to maintain credibility. One union rep is corrupt ergo all union reps are corrupt, just makes no sense.

I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in

[RTR]

Litebulbs

I go back aways. When unions were driven by power hungry shop stewards and shopfloor reps. Things were dire and much harm was done. Some of that exists now if your head is in the 70's and 80's.

I am convinced that Unite is, and therefore so is BASSA, trying very hard to bring back the bad old days. As for liars and cheats: "BA are just circling 747's to make them look busy", "there are 24 jumbos parked at Cardiff" and endless other stuff on here and the CC thread. All proven to be untrue but Unite listened to them and followed, with DH pulling their strings. I probably did sound as generalising but there is a myriad of claim and counter claim based on lies. Made up tales of woe when none existed but the intention was to make it sound as rough as possible. The bitternes was not invented, it existed in the raw and in such a case it breeds more and more angst and I know from experience the breeding grounds are entrenched in these two unions and they are making it much much worse than it is.

Now we have a threat of another strike according to Unite. What for? The reinstatement of staff travel and re-instatement of the miscreant reps. Why?
That was NEVER a reason - it was created by the staff themselves. The other reasons have long gone away. They long for another strike! For God's sake why?

BA will never go down and they won't bow to either Unite or BASSA. BASSA will not win because they have dug a hole so deep that they cannot get out. But will they stop this stupidity - NO! But it WILL end that's for sure - in tears and heartbreak, broken homes and bills galore. That's what unions can do.

I do agree with the thought that McCluskey won't win the election as Gen Sec of Unite. But if not him - who?

[Oneye]

Whilst I see your point of view Juan, being a simple soul, logic dictates to me that if these people are 'misguided', indeed horribly as you put it, one has to question their collective and individual grasp of simple concepts. Suffice to say "There are none so blind as those who 'refuse' to to see" with apologies from one who knows the physical feeling.

[Litebulbs]

I understand what you are saying and no doubt there is a fair amount of truth in it. But we are not in the 70's and 80's now. Legislation is in place to prevent the wholesale return of industrial power and I see it getting more restrictive, rather than less, through the term of this Government, especially if a uberleftie gets the top job at Unite.

The two sides are in a fight and it is getting dirty, well it has been for a while. I would imagine that both sides are not going to come out of it smelling of roses, but it is obvious that one side has made a far better job of it, than the other.

[Diplome]

Juan Toguh:

Regarding this statement:


I despise what BASSA is doing to BA, but I do not think that the reps are malicious and corrupt. They are horribly misguided and are doing irrepparable damage to their own union but I do believe that they are passionate and committed individuals striving for what they believe in


With all due respect I would assert that one can be "passionate" and also "malicious".

My personal observation is that BASSA reps seem to have knowingly mislead their membership, thinking not of what harm they could be doing to the individuals they are supposed to be protecting, and more of their personal egos and positions.

I can find no other explantion for the messages submitted by Mr. Holley, the advice given by Ms. Malone, the actions during negotiations, etc., etc..

[Neptunus Rex]

An indication of the NUM's membership decline is that, whereas at the time of the strike it had nearly 300,000 members, that figure is now down to about 1,500.

Francis Beckett, co-author of Marching to the Fault Line (http://www.guardianbookshop.co.uk/BerteShopWeb/viewProduct.do?ISBN=9781849010252), the most recent history of the dispute, said:

"Arthur Scargill took a proud and powerful trade union, and, by sheer hubris and a failure to think through what he was doing, turned it into a shadow of its former self; he created sectarianism and gave rise to a union that was so divided that it started turning in on itself."
Neither Scargill nor the union were (sic) available for comment.
The quotes above are from 'The Grauniad,' hardly a publication of the Right Wing!
QED Die Fuhrer DH

[Juan Tugoh]

Diplome and Oneye,

I agree with you both, I was making a general point re unions. I do think that the majority of the BASSA reps are wrong but not malicious or stupid or corrupt

As the loons who write BASSAs stuff are fond of historical allusions, the situation is akin to Europe in the thirties where the intelligent, politically aware saw the choice as either facism or communism. Neither proved to be the correct choice but at the time that is all anyone could see. This dispute has caused a polarization of opinion, it does not mean that one side is right and the other wrong merely that they reflect each other.

As I said in my opening lines there are some that are obviously both corrupt and malicious, sadly for BASSA they are the ones that are pulling the strings. Unions have, in the UK, been an incredible force for good - furthering workers rights and protecting the health and safety, and fighting for recompense when required. However, they became too powerful thinking that they ran the manufacturing industries of Britain and their actions effectively destroyed these industries. The unions through good intentions destroyed the jobs they were fighting for, shipbuilding is a classic example of this.

Yet those very unions that destroyed shipbuilding were trying to provide safety and security in long term jobs. The union leaders were acting with the best of intentions but with limited vision, certainly they had no strategic vision. All of the same can be said of BASSA. As to all their reps being malicious and corrupt, I think you are overstating the case. It is certain that DH has a massive vested interest in not settling on the current deal as he will remain out of a job if he does, he has to fight for reps to be re-instated. He has also proven himself to be petty minded. LM, by allowing him to continue with his drivel, is also be suspect, but then where does that put TW and DS - they have also stood by while DH has bullied.

Ultimately all of this means, I suppose, that this is not a simple matter that can be condensed into a few soundbites.

[call100]

call100

The Mail, The Telegraph, The Guardian, you may not like, but they report what they report whether it is true or not. Its been said and that’s what we 'listen to' - like it or not



Very true.

Anyway, I am afraid I draw the line at responding to sarcastic twaddle. Clearly you are not capable of holding a debate without resorting to snide. We have had enough of that. Not for me thanks.
You get the debate you deserve.....Your posts were statements (According to you true) not points of debate....You insisted on tarring all with the same brush which was totally ridiculous...So the Holier than thou attitude doesn't really wash...

Anyway, to move on.....I'm not sure that there is any leadership within BASSA. Too many 'reps' are making individual statements and responding on forums and nothing seems to be joined up.
I've never been involved in negotiations or IA where we would have allowed the maverick actions that BASSA reps seem to indulge in.
There are checks and balances to ensure IA is a last resort. Something has broken down and needs fixing ASAP.
I agree that it's either fixed or BASSA will cease to exist by attrition. Hopefully someone will step forward and take the flak and turn it around....Slim hope, but, there is still time, just.

[Neptunus Rex]

Biggins was married to Australian actress Beatrice Norbury from 1971 to 1974. He is now openly gay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual) and formed a civil partnership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_partnerships_in_the_United_Kingdom) with his partner, flight attendant Xxxx Xxxxxxxx, on 30 December 2006 at Hackney Register Office.Matter of public record. BA steward's name deleted for thread decorum.

I do think that the 'partners with alternative lifestyles' thing has been somewhat overdone.

Mr Biggins is such an important meeja megastar that 'Oor Wullie' should be afraid - in fact, be very afraid!

[Diplome]

Neptunus Rex:

Darn you!! You have my curiosity aroused. I'll now have to go explore and found out who this Biggins fellow is.

[Diplome]

Well this is interesting, and explains some of his motivation:

He jokes loudly that one of the good things about being with his partner, BA steward Neil Sinclair, is that he can fly round the world on 10pc fares.

Read more: Queen of the luvvie jungle: How Christopher Biggens can wave goodbye to years of z-list pantos | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-500434/Queen-luvvie-jungle-How-Christopher-Biggens-wave-goodbye-years-z-list-pantos.html#ixzz0yCfPhb62)


Evidently Mr. Biggins is still not exactly flush.

Moderators. I did not eliminate Mr. Sinclair's name as he has been quite open regarding his relationship with Mr. Biggin's, including participating in media opportunities.

[Neptunus Rex]

Diplome
(What a marvellous name.)
I think the phrase à propos is "Celebrated Nonentity."

Cheers,
Neppie

[Neptunus Rex]

From today's Daily Telegraph:
Passengers facing the threat of Christmas strikes as union hardliners moved to escalate the long-running cabin crew dispute. Not again, surely. It's time for BA to drop these malcontents from the 'First Team.'

[Diplome]

Neptunus Rex:

I note that after his triumph in the Jungle he is back to Panto...

Messers Walsh and Francis I'm sure are prepared for this formidable foe.

Duncan Holley's unfortunate comments virtually asking people to fly another airline will have serious impact on BASSA. Watch the acceleration of Mixed Fleet being one effect, and rightfully done.

[Neptunus Rex]

Diplome
We could start a whole new thread on BASSA Panto characters - we would certainly not be short of Dames!

[MPN11]

@ Neptune ... tut tut, Sir :=

[Litebulbs]

One can only surmise that the thousands' silence is agreement with what the leadership is doing at present. How can one draw any other conclusion?

You can't, because it is probably the truth.

[Colonel White]

If (and it is a very big if) BASSA are intent on damaging BA's revenue by threatening strike action they need to be very careful. Unless they have a genuine grievance they might fall foul of TULRCA. BA could then sue for loss of revenue. Sure, there's a soundbite in it for the union, but the cost will be severe. I quote from the act
Liability of trade unions in proceedings in tort

20 Liability of trade union in certain proceedings in tort

(1) Where proceedings in tort are brought against a trade union—
(a) on the ground that an act—
(i) induces another person to break a contract or interferes or induces another person to interfere with its performance, or
(ii) consists in threatening that a contract (whether one to which the union is a party or not) will be broken or its performance interfered with, or that the union will induce another person to break a contract or interfere with its performance, or
(b) in respect of an agreement or combination by two or more persons to do or to procure the doing of an act which, if it were done without any such agreement or combination, would be actionable in tort on such a ground,
then, for the purpose of determining in those proceedings whether the union is liable in respect of the act in question, that act shall be taken to have been done by the union if, but only if, it is to be taken to have been authorised or endorsed by the trade union in accordance with the following provisions.
(2) An act shall be taken to have been authorised or endorsed by a trade union if it was done, or was authorised or endorsed—
(a) by any person empowered by the rules to do, authorise or endorse acts of the kind in question, or
(b) by the principal executive committee or the president or general secretary, or
(c) by any other committee of the union or any other official of the union (whether employed by it or not).
Thus threatening strike action without a ballot could be a tort.

Legal bits aside, I predict that certain parts of the media will talk of this as a mass meeting even though the largest room at the venue is barely able to hold 750 people. It would be a body blow to BASSA if they were unable to fill that with supporters given that four times that number rejected the pay deal offered. Of course it won't be representative of the rank and file, only a naive fool would believe that to be possible. The whole meeting is a bit of a gamble in some respects. If there is a small number who are prepared to challenge the BASSA hard line in the meeting, it could backfire badly on the union. Instead of headlines about possible strikes, the media may talk of internal union strife and the way that dissent is handled by BASSA.

[LD12986]

On the legal issues, I think DH has been sailing very close to the wind for a long time. A lot of the comments he has made about the company and its senior management are defamatory. Time will tell whether the company has been waiting to choose the right moment to do anything about this.

As for next week's meeting, I suspect BASSA will not allow any cameras into the meeting. Whatever happens, I'm sure DH will issue a rousing account of the "electric" atmosphere, 100% support for a strike etc.

[Litebulbs]

The tactic of non union membership has not helped either. The mixed fleet bargaining group would not have been set, so the restriction on non membership was not needed. It that caveat was not there, then I imagine the uptake would have been greater.

[Litebulbs]

As for next week's meeting, I suspect BASSA will not allow any cameras into the meeting. Whatever happens, I'm sure DH will issue a rousing account of the "electric" atmosphere, 100% support for a strike etc.

It may have been a better move not to dismiss him and it still may turn out to be an unfair dismissal. It certainly has not removed him from the dispute.

[Litebulbs]

It is whether you look at new fleet as a new entity. You cannot stop anybody being a member of a union. However, you do not have to voluntarily recognise a particular bargaining group. New fleet will not have a recognised bargaining facility, as it is new, with new terms and conditions. The move to it would be voluntary and there would be no negotiating facility in place. The risk for BA would be if 50%+1 of transferees still wanted BASSA representation and could force the CAC into granting automatic recognition.

This is what I think would be the case, but that is based on my knowledge as a rep, not a legal expert, so I could be completely wrong!

[Litebulbs]

And it is a huge difference between loosing confidence in your negotiating team, to not having any team at all.

[Litebulbs]

It always helps if you remember that you are an employee first and never become full time, no matter how big the organisation is.

[Colonel White]

It may have been a better move not to dismiss him and it still may turn out to be an unfair dismissal. It certainly has not removed him from the dispute. Sorry to say, Duncan Holley has already taken BA to an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal ... and lost. Hence his current boasts that BA can't control him. My understanding (and a BASSA member may be able to correct me on this) is that his position as branch secretary was due for election just before this dispute began. The decsion was taken to defer all elections until after the current dispute had ended. He is able to cling on to his job as branch secretary despite not being employed by BA as I beleive Unite allows branch secretaries to be appointed by the union as a short term measure pending an election. Perhaps Litebulbs can confirm this.

BASSA should indeed be worried at the rate that they are losing members and new staff are joining Mixed fleet. If BASSA call a strike for crimbo which results in strikers getting sacked, the replacements will be more mixed fleet folk. I would bet that this would also be the point at which more members resign the union, so could prove to be the final tipping point to derecognition. A pity really as there is clearly a need for a strong union in this area and a revived BASSA with new blood in the executive might mean a more foward looking union, but the way this is now shaping up, I can only see one end result.

[Litebulbs]

I have absolutely no idea on BASSA rules and that is only slightly less than my knowledge of Unite rules. You will need to speak to a branch secretary for that info, but I am sure that that may take some asking.

[call100]

Sorry to say, Duncan Holley has already taken BA to an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal ... and lost. Hence his current boasts that BA can't control him. My understanding (and a BASSA member may be able to correct me on this) is that his position as branch secretary was due for election just before this dispute began. The decsion was taken to defer all elections until after the current dispute had ended. He is able to cling on to his job as branch secretary despite not being employed by BA as I beleive Unite allows branch secretaries to be appointed by the union as a short term measure pending an election. Perhaps Litebulbs can confirm this.

BASSA should indeed be worried at the rate that they are losing members and new staff are joining Mixed fleet. If BASSA call a strike for crimbo which results in strikers getting sacked, the replacements will be more mixed fleet folk. I would bet that this would also be the point at which more members resign the union, so could prove to be the final tipping point to derecognition. A pity really as there is clearly a need for a strong union in this area and a revived BASSA with new blood in the executive might mean a more foward looking union, but the way this is now shaping up, I can only see one end result.
As I see it only members (Including retired) can hold office, however the Union rules state......
It is further required that a fair procedure be developed by the Executive Council to deal sympathetically with cases where a member’s eligibility to stand for election or continue to hold office may be affected by employer victimisation. Not withstanding the argument as to whether he was victimised or not, this may be the reason he still holds Office.
To be honest it doesn't really matter if he is Branch Secretary or not. People are either listening to him, or not, dependent on which side of the fence they sit.

[wiggy]

Thanks for the research.

People are either listening to him, or not, dependent on which side of the fence they sit.

Ain't that the truth. Scary. Isn't it??

[ChicoG]

The broken record that is MissM

A possible threat of another strike over Christmas should be enough for WW to want to reach a settlement with us.

Nobody wants a strike but there are thousands of us will walk out at Christmas if necessary. I am one of those and I will not hestitate a second to do it.

It's actually hard to even care now. If MissM is real, she is beyond delusional.

If she/he is just a BASSA troll, then the subject matter does nothing more than reinforce the belief that the BASSA leadership are like Robert de Niro on the boat at the end of Scorsese's remake of Cape Fear.

:E

[Snas]

It’s not supposed to be like this: -

My partner has just finished a trip and was talking to a colleague who was moaning about his lot, the fact that he had lost wages through strike action, staff travel was gone which was causing him no end of trouble with his home life, he was worried about what sort of contract he was going to end up on and spent a lot of time discussing the stress of more forthcoming industrial action. He finished by announcing that it was the “end of flying as we know it”.

My partner answered by stating that she had lost no wages, still had staff travel and was now on a contract that she was very happy with and didn’t care if there was another strike or not. As far as the end of flying as she knew it, “nothing has changed for me” was her reply.

How can her circumstance be so different from his, she left the union at the beginning of the year thats how.

It’s not supposed to be like that is it now, really….

[Entaxei]

Re DH still holding onto Branch Secretary position - given the changes that the ruling elite appear to have made to the normal union rules over the years - viz : only Bassa allowed to control/agree a dispute, despite Unite; very stringent qualifications to be eligible to stand for election to committee; etc. - it would seem quite possible that due to a similar weasel clause, the BS cannot be changed until any outstanding disputes are concluded.

Surely someone out there has a copy of the Bassa rule book in all its glory.

[Diplome]

Snas:

Your post tells quite a story.

Personally, I don't think that BASSA wants to go out on strike..they know they don't have the support, they know that BA and their co-workers are even more determined to increase the operational success of the last strike.

I believe this is, more likely than not, part of Mr. Holley's "guerilla tactics" where he tries to damage BA by making threats they have no intention of following through with.

BASSA is quickly becoming a dog with no teeth, lots of barking but no bite.

[RTR]

Matters are getting quite confused! Hard to know what is what anymore.

MissM is speaking through her woodentop and DH seems to be hell bent on on leading his(?) 'troops' to destruction while not officially in charge!? AND.......Unite have given notice that another strike is possible. :ugh:

Can someone possibly read or understand any sense from BASSA/UNITE thicks?

No talks, yes there was, no there wasn't, oh yes there was, who cares - BA wins.

[Litebulbs]

No talks, yes there was, no there wasn't, oh yes there was, who cares - BA wins.

Apart from the small matter of over 10000 crew existing terms and conditions, that do not appear to align with future working patterns. BA are 3-0 up, but it is only the start of the second half.

[beesflyer]

Apart from the small matter of over 10000 crew existing terms and conditions, that do not appear to align with future working patterns. BA are 3-0 up, but it is only the start of the second half.

Yep.....but they have used all their subs. :O

[TopBunk]

Apart from the small matter of over 10000 crew existing terms and conditions, that do not appear to align with future working patterns. BA are 3-0 up, but it is only the start of the second half.


BA are 3-0 up, haven't broken sweat and have all their subs intact with wealthy financial backers ready to invest in the managers tactics for the future.

The opposition supporters are vacating the ground in droves.

The coach has no game plan and appears to be watching another sport as his half time comments bear no resemblance to the game everyone else has been watching.

Most of his key players are either injured or stuck at their training centre half a world away, and he has already had a few players sent off.

His financial backers seem to have refused to put up any more money to fund his home grown (tomato) squad.

The coach is having to speak louder as fewer people are even within earshot to hear his latest pronunciations and if it goes on much longer he will be able to send out personal invites and hold the next meeting of the faithful in his garden shed.

[Ancient Observer]

Litebulbs.......
I can't remember many teams overcoming a 3-0 half time deficit. Manure did it over Spurs some time ago.

Now whilst I don't particularly like Manure, they can be a class act. They were in that second half.

Er, I'm not sure that anyone has called bassa a class act in the last 2 years. Perhaps not ever............



A technical aside.
1. Only the Unite Exec can authorise any action which a court might decide to be industrial action. That's so that the TU is not taken to Court over "unofficial" IA. It's there to stop the nutters sacrificing Unite over their own disputes. (Any nutters - I'm not calling bassa nutters!!)
2. I do not know the wording, but in the Unite/Bassa world, whilst only Unite's Exec can authorise industrial action, Unite have to refer any deal which is supposed to end a dispute to a bassa body. Anyone know who speaks for bassa in that situation?

Balance............and my usual balancing comment............

BA gets the TUs that it deserves. BA "management" have trained bassa to act as it does consistently over 40 years. We should not expect people to change in one or two years when they have been trained differently for 40 years. Calling folk names doesn't change this!

[LD12986]

Apart from the small matter of over 10000 crew existing terms and conditions, that do not appear to align with future working patterns. BA are 3-0 up, but it is only the start of the second half.

From BA's perspective, there's very little left to agree with the unions. It has got most of the savings it required from Mixed Fleet and crewing changes, neither of which are going to be reversed. The other issues such as changing the disruption agreement are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

BA has never anticipated making major changes to existing crew t&cs.

Also if Unite don't accept the current offer, crew don't get two consecutive annual pay rises.

BASSA will never admit it but it is game over.

[Litebulbs]

But it is not clean. There are pre and post 97, LGW and now two new contracts. There are as many different contracts, as grades.

[LD12986]

It isn't but BA would never manage to harmonise all the different contract types. That has never been on the agenda. A separate mixed fleet at LHR adds complexity but this is far outweighed by the benefit of starting Mixed Fleet with a blank sheet of paper and not having to comprise if new contract crew worked alongside the existing LHR crew.

[Litebulbs]

I still believe that if you took all the macho BS out of the equation and started with blank piece of paper, then a unified cross base deal would be achievable. As you have said, the savings have been made.

[LD12986]

I still believe that if you took all the macho BS out of the equation and started with blank piece of paper, then a unified cross base deal would be achievable. As you have said, the savings have been made.


The savings are coming from Mixed Fleet being on separate contracts as a separate fleet.

Based on BASSA's track record, BA would never be able to agree an integrated approach to the LHR fleets that would yield the savings BA was looking for.

[Litebulbs]

It is completely achievable; it is only a trade dispute. The CSD's are working and there is a new fleet. The savings are made. All you need is arbitration for the dismissed and suspended workers and some creativity for staff travel..........

[fincastle84]

All you need is arbitration for the dismissed and suspended workers and some creativity for staff travel..........

Why do you need arbitration for the dismissed? They were dismissed under union agreed procedures. Just like people found guilty in courts of law, they were found GUILTY !

If they don't like it then those who were found GUILTY , can take their case to an industrial tribunal, where they will be fully supported by their union.

[LD12986]

It is completely achievable; it is only a trade dispute. The CSD's are working and there is a new fleet. The savings are made. All you need is arbitration for the dismissed and suspended workers and some creativity for staff travel..........


We seem to be at cross-purposes?

The original point you made was about there being various different contracts at LHR/LGW to which I responded that for new fleet being an entirely separate fleet was critical to achieving savings targets.

On the point you raise above, WW is unconvinced that if staff travel was restored BASSA would agree to the deal on the table.

On disciplinaries, I see no reason why there should be a departure from the established procedure. It is entirely proper that they are dealt with in this way, to do otherwise would create a dangerous precedent.

[Litebulbs]

Calm down. As you can be sacked at any time for anything, then it is not about being found guilty. You are not tried by a jury of your peers, but by a manager of some sort. It is not the most impartial system, but that is UK employment law for you. Once you are gone, you are gone, no matter what any ET decides.

[Litebulbs]

he original point you made was about there being various different contracts at LHR/LGW to which I responded that for new fleet being an entirely separate fleet was critical to achieving savings targets.

Maybe I am not making myself clear. I commented earlier about 10000 plus employees on existing deals. What you want is a new start contract and an existing employee deal. That would meet and exceed the critical savings.

[Juan Tugoh]

It may not be a court of law that decides on disciplinaries but it is a union agreed process. Deciding they don't like the process just because there is a trade dispute is on will not wash. They, BASSA have shown that they do not like the democratic process by attempted gerrymandering. There should be NO movement from the company, those sacked after due process MUST remain sacked.

[Litebulbs]

Agreed? Effective consultation on policy that is non contractual, that is altered by statute law, statutory instruments and guides. I believe crewing levels were agreed too? If an ET finds those dismissed to have been treated unfairly, they will still be dismissed, but with some cash in their accounts. What would you have to fear from arbitration, if what you have done is fair?

[Dawdler]

I think the feeling is that Arbitration in this case means compromise - the suspended are either guilty or they are not. Perhaps that compromise is the likely hood of them getting away with the action that brought them to attention in the first place. However mitigating circumsances may be taken into account when considering the penalty. We often hear about those found guilty and sacked, but little about those who have been found not guilty of misdemeanour, or those whose actions did not warrant being fired, i.e. kept on, but an admonishment entered on their record.

[pcat160]

BA has won. Why should they open the door for BASSA even an inch? If there are hard feelings between the two sides so be it. Making concessions to Bassa is not the way to heal the feelings. Let’s face it the rest of BA staff do not care how the strikers feel. It is the strikers problem to reintegrate themselves with the rest of BA staff. Litebulbs from a Union Rep’s prospective what course of action do you think Bassa should take? Other than accepting the offer on the table what can they achieve for their members? Certainly they can cause additional financial damage to BA, but what does this accomplish for their members and at what possible harm to their members? It’s over and Bassa/Unite need to move on. I think I answered my question from my prospective, sorry for that, but would like to hear your prospective.

[ChicoG]

Litebulbs, if BASSA feel that those dismissed have been dismissed unfairly, despite it being done using agreed procedures with the union, then they go to tribunal and the truth comes out. We will then hear exactly what they did and be able to judge for ourselves, as will those leading the tribunal.

What is stopping these people doing this?

I think you can guess as well as I can.

BA are most likely under agreement not to release details of these cases, and I'm sure if they did there would not be much sympathy for the individuals concerned.

Like most BASSA foot stomps, this is yet more wind and p***.

We know why Holley got the boot (fair) and we can probably guess why Everard is in the mire. I doubt any of the rest are much different, but if they are, let them take it to tribunal and show the world how "macho bullying and harrassing" BA actually are.

Don't hold your breath though.

[fincastle84]

You are not tried by a jury of your peers, but by a manager of some sort. It is not the most impartial system,

You have put yourself forward on here as some sort of expert on IR & yet you seem foggy about disciplinary hearings. The hearing will always have in attendance someone from HR as well as a line manager, plus the accused person is allowed representation. As stated, the hearings are a procedure which is agreed by the unions.

Having been found GUILTY, why haven't they applied to an industrial tribunal? I think that we all know the answer to that question.

[ChicoG]

Having been found GUILTY, why haven't they applied to an industrial tribunal? I think that we all know the answer to that question.

Let's take Everard as an example. If it were proven that a BASSA rep registered a domain name mimicking a group of moderate CC, and filled that site with stomach-churning pornography, how much bad press would not only the individual, but the union receive?

Sorry Litebulbs, but I think BASSA don't really have a leg to stand on. IMHO It's just the old clique of CSDs abusing their power to try and do their mates a favour.

[leiard]

Is the uniteba site run by BASSA ?

Notice of Extraordinary Meeting - http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/Notice_of_Extraordinary_M.doc

"Under the ballot rules our branch is required to hold a meeting during the nomination period (July and August 2010) in order to determine our nomination for the position of General Secretary.

This meeting will take place on: 03rd September 2010."

One rule for them, one rule for us.

Give people plenty of advanced warning for a meeting - the notice was issued on the 1/9 for a meeting on the 3/9

[LD12986]

DH has already been to the ET to try and get his job (at an employer he publicly claims to detest) reinstated. The ET had absolutely no difficulty kicking this out. If this is anything to go by those that have also been sacked don't have a leg to stand on.

[call100]

You have put yourself forward on here as some sort of expert on IR & yet you seem foggy about disciplinary hearings. The hearing will always have in attendance someone from HR as well as a line manager, plus the accused person is allowed representation. As stated, the hearings are a procedure which is agreed by the unions.

Having been found GUILTY, why haven't they applied to an industrial tribunal? I think that we all know the answer to that question.
Without commenting on the BA cases, if you take your view to be correct then there would never be any Employment Tribunals. Just because it has been through a process, agreed or otherwise, does not automatically infer fairness. Having someone there from HR is no guarantee of fairness or impartiality.
I doubt litebulbs is 'foggy' about disciplinary hearings. ;)

[ChicoG]

if you take your view to be correct then there would never be any Employment Tribunals.

I don't quite see how you drew that conclusion from what Fincastle said, as essentially he said the same as me.

Shall I spell it out? It is my sincere opinion that the reason none of these people are going to employment tribunals is because they would all be thrown out on their arses.

Clear enough?

Do you have any alternative theory? Or do you subscribe to Litebulb's view that the procedure itself, despite being perfectly acceptable to both sides prior to this dispute, apparently has now conveniently become "flawed"?

[Sonorguy]

DH has already been to the ET to try and get his job (at an employer he publicly claims to detest) reinstated. The ET had absolutely no difficulty kicking this out. If this is anything to go by those that have also been sacked don't have a leg to stand on.

In which case he was on a hiding to nothing as a tribunal has no power to force re-instatement, just decide whether the dismissal was fair or not.

[Litebulbs]

DH has already been to the ET to try and get his job (at an employer he publicly claims to detest) reinstated. The ET had absolutely no difficulty kicking this out. If this is anything to go by those that have also been sacked don't have a leg to stand on.

So why would arbitration be any different? If I read correctly, Unite called for ACAS involvement in proceedings and it is the ACAS code of conduct that ET's use now, to judge if due process has been followed.

As to my foggy understanding fincastle, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I am happy in my understanding and agree with call100's last comment.

[ChicoG]

I believe ACAS involvement was actually agreed at the meeting at which Simpson was gleefully twittering. Until, that is, BASSA got it cancelled.

Or, as Woodley put it at the time: "'We made some good progress with regards to discipline of our members, with the introduction of Acas into the disciplinary process that is right in the direction. We have already made it clear that we have got an agreement on the business issues in principle.''

At this time, the return of staff travel seemed to be the key issue. That was probably Unite's priority.

BASSA are now trying to make disciplinaries the priority.

It's not exactly been unusual for them to screw things up, is it?

[Hotel Mode]

So why would arbitration be any different? If I read correctly, Unite called for ACAS involvement in proceedings and it is the ACAS code of conduct that ET's use now, to judge if due process has been followed.


Or indeed, to put it another way. Why on earth would BA want to add an additional layer to the cabin crew disciplinary process (as agreed by BASSA/Unite) when the ET and ACAS follow an identical protocol? As it stands every BA dismissal has been approved by the ET. As this is the same as the ACAS code of conduct what on earth is the point of an further tribunal following the same code of conduct? If it goes before an ET it covers the ACAS protocol doesnt it?????

Time wasting?

[Litebulbs]

I believe that it would save time. If it went to arbitration before an ET, then there is no right of appeal, it ends there.

With regard to mediation in the disciplinary meetings; if you are following due process, what do you have to hide?

[ChicoG]

With regard to mediation in the disciplinary meetings; if you are following due process, what do you have to hide?

Litebulbs, who said anything is being hidden from the people concerned?

[Litebulbs]

I believe ACAS involvement was actually agreed at the meeting at which Simpson was gleefully twittering. Until, that is, BASSA got it cancelled.

If your belief is true, then more fool BASSA. In my won sense of balance, whenever I read the BASSA communications and comments on other sites, you never see "they have done nothing wrong"; rather minor breaches that have suffered disproportionate acts, to people who have been suspended pending investigation, or dismissed. I imagine that it should not be too hard to stick to the rules, if you were in dispute.

[Litebulbs]

Litebulbs, who said anything is being hidden from the people concerned?

Fair point and bad choice of words.

[Betty girl]

leiard,
The uniteba site you mention is the Amicus/cc89 website. Since the strike it has gone very quiet and only now publishes notices from the parent union for the members that remain in the union. I think because some reps have been suspended and others are not being released from flying duties both unions are struggling to staff their offices let alone keep the websites updated.

The BASSA website has apparently published the same Unite notice that you reproduced but their site is closed and only members of Bassa can view it. Their site is more active mainly because it has a forum for members and this is where DH posts all his strange posts.

[ChicoG]

My belief is based on Woodley's comment:

Or, as Woodley put it at the time: "'We made some good progress with regards to discipline of our members, with the introduction of Acas into the disciplinary process that is right in the direction. We have already made it clear that we have got an agreement on the business issues in principle.''

As to your other comment: "whenever I read the BASSA communications and comments on other sites, you never see "they have done nothing wrong"; rather minor breaches that have suffered disproportionate acts, to people who have been suspended pending investigation, or dismissed."

If BA are being overzealous and petty then an Employment tribunal would find them at fault, surely. So go ahead and appeal.

I think we're going round in circles here.

I have yet to see ANY evidence of unfair disciplinaries or unfair dismissals. Ask yourself why not.

I HAVE seen evidence of a fair dismissal, cf the obnoxious and thankfully sacked Holley.

[Hotel Mode]

I believe that it would save time. If it went to arbitration before an ET, then there is no right of appeal, it ends there.

But DH's tribunal came up within a couple of months, and I believe that the 6/13 of the dismissal hearings have already been heard at the ET and rejected. As yet BA have been found to be acting properly and the ET has been actng quickly. So why add another layer.

[Snas]

As far as all these suspensions are concerned if someone really can be bothered (I can’t currently) BASSA were foolish enough to detail a great long list of the various alleged transactions that have lead to the topic in hand. I specifically recall this as it was reproduced on this site and I printed it out (3 pages) and took it on a journey with me as some light reading with some friends for their amusement..!

They were far from minor matters in my view including written threats to blow slides, serious breaches of confidentially (VCC lists being passed about), acts of outright aggression towards other BA staff members, porn web sites etc – I remember wondering why BASSA released it as I didn’t think that it would generate sympathy from any reader.

I for one will not be particularly surprised that someone dismissed for threatening to blow a slide for example wouldn’t bother with a tribunal…
It’s also the case remember that the vast number of suspended staff are back at work with I assume no action or a warning at most?

[Ancient Observer]

IMHO - There have probably been no ETs for sacked BA CC staff (in the context of this dispute).
The TW postcode (LHR) holds ETs at Reading. The UB post code (Water in Brains) holds ETs at Watford. Both Reading and Watford have months and months of delays.
My daughter is awaiting a date for an ET at Reading. Her claim was submitted last November - about 10 months ago, well before the BA sackings..

I believe that DH did not go to a full ET. I have not looked it up, but I believe it was some interim measure to ask for immediate re-instatement.

I'm sure that the Sun and the Mail will keep its readers up to date should any of the Heritage CSDs take BA to a Tribunal.

[call100]

I don't quite see how you drew that conclusion from what Fincastle said, as essentially he said the same as me.

Shall I spell it out? It is my sincere opinion that the reason none of these people are going to employment tribunals is because they would all be thrown out on their arses.

Clear enough?

Do you have any alternative theory? Or do you subscribe to Litebulb's view that the procedure itself, despite being perfectly acceptable to both sides prior to this dispute, apparently has now conveniently become "flawed"?
Quite easily, is the answer to that. You should have noticed I said 'Without commenting on the BA cases'. It was a direct reply to his assumption that because it was an agreed process and HR were involved that it was automatically fair. So if you are saying the same thing then you are also wrong.
As for the BA cases, they may have been unfair or not. That is to be decided by others involved. If the Union lawyers (who make the decision to proceed) think they have a case then they will go forward........Until then, it's pointless stabbing in the dark...

[ChicoG]

It was a direct reply to his assumption that because it was an agreed process and HR were involved that it was automatically fair.

It was fair enough when the union agreed it. What has changed?

[Litebulbs]

ChicoG - I agree with what AO has stated. I have spent a fair amount of time searching for an ET case for DH and have not found it. But if you have seen evidence of a fair dismissal, is it in the public domain?

[Litebulbs]

It was fair enough when the union agreed it. What has changed?

A massive industrial dispute, not seen since the 1970's if you believe what you read on here.

[ChicoG]

Not a final result by any means, but previously posted here:

Duncan Holley's application to Watford Employment Tribunal for reinstatement was dismissed today. Holley had applied to be reinstated pending a full hearing of his unfair dismissal claim against BA claiming that the sole or principal reason for his dismissal was his trade union membership and activities. He asked the Tribunal to order the continuation of his employment pending a full hearing of his case. BA claimed that the reason for the dismissal was Holley's refusal to go to work when rostered on a number of times in December.

Judge Ryan denied the request saying he felt it was more likely than not that BA would demonstrate at trial that Mr Holley's dismissal was because of his refusal to come to work to perform his rostered duties and his refusal to attend meetings with his manager. Amongst other things he said "The claimant is simply not entitled to take into his own hands the decision whether to work or not".

Which implies to me that it's more than likely that he will fail at tribunal if he bothers going that far - something else I'm not sure about.

[Runway vacated]

"A massive industrial dispute, not seen since the 1970's if you believe what you read on here."

Or a hissy fit orchestrated by an incompetent union that has failed miserably to represent the interests of its' members.

Also if you believe what you read on here.

[ChicoG]

Whilst looking, found this:

Branch secretary Duncan Holley, said: 'We are looking for the green light for a strike ballot next week, which would encompass the Christmas period and there is every likelihood we will be out then.'

The dispute was originally over BA's 'survival' plans to slash costs. Most of the key issues have since been resolved over months of gruelling negotiations.

But the Unite union said the suspensions and sackings were unjustified. It warned that a renewed strike ballot was 'inevitable' unless there was a swift resolution of issues.

BA said the vast majority of staff who had been suspended were now back at work, although at least 13 have been sacked for 'serious cases of misconduct', subject to appeal.

It comes ahead of a mass meeting of BA cabin crew at Kempton Park race course near Sunbury-on-Thames next Monday, September 6.

BA was up 1.2p at 211p.

Good luck with that one, Holley.

And ironically, given that we are discussing the schism between Unite and BASSA:

British Airways’ cabin crew union, Unite, said talks will take place next week to try to end the long-running dispute with the airline.

A spokesman for Unite said talks were being planned for next week but it could not specify the day.

He denied reports that the union was planning to ballot for more strike action over the half-term holidays or at Christmas.

“There are no plans for any strike ballots as we’re still trying to resolve the outstanding issues,” he said.”