Avro C-102 Jetliner

[stepwilk]

It's claimed that the Avro (of Canada) C-102 was "the first aircraft designed from scratch as a jet transport." Was the DH Comet, which of course beat the C-102 into the air by 13 days, originally intended to be something other than a jet transport?

[Proplinerman]

I've never heard it claimed that the Comet was envisaged and designed as anything other than a jetliner from day one, in response to the recommendation for such, which was one of the planned post-war British airliner types, made by the 1943 Brabazon Committee.

Oh and this post caught my eye because of a very large and very realistic model of the Avro Jetliner that I saw a few years ago when visiting the Calgary Aero Space Museum-here's a link to a photo I took of it:

646 Calgary 17-9-05 Avro Jetliner model on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://tinyurl.com/3458gkx)

[stepwilk]

Hmmm...I'm beginning to think that what the "first" claim means is that DESIGN of the C-102 began before design of the Comet did, thus making the C-102 the "first" designed-as-a-civil-transport jet even though it wasn't the first to fly. Seems a bit of a stretch, if that's the case.

[PaperTiger]

FWIW (wikipedia)DH Comet: Design work began in 1946 under Ronald Bishop, who had been responsible for the Mosquito fighter-bomber. Several configurations were considered, including twin booms and a swept-wing, tailless design, but a more conventional design was eventually chosen and announced as the Comet in December 1947.

Avro Jetliner: Over the next few months, the teams at TCA and Avro refined the requirements, which were signed off on 9 April 1946.
Looks like Avro 'finished' the design earlier but took longer to build.

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

Design work on the Comet began in 1944 and the final design was ordered to specification 22/46 in 1946 so wiki has that a bit wrong, I don't have a firm date for 22/46 being signed off though, other than it is obviously sometime in 1946. Either way whoever is claiming the C-102 was first is making a very tenuous claim.

On a related note, was the C-102 an all new design? It seems to bear a strong resemblance to the Tudor, and also to the later Tudor 8 and Ashton.

I always thought that these aircraft were Avro (UK)'s way of hanging jets on the Tudor and the C-102 was Canada's own way of doing the same. Is that unfair?

The C-102 was certainly a better job and more evolved than the Ashton. Or is there in fact no link at all?

[clunckdriver]

Gee, as a Canadian I was having such a great week and then you go and mention the Avro Jetliner, next to get me really POd you will bring up the Arrow!Two great projects destroyed by political bumbling and lack of vision in airline circles. The Jetliner basic airframe did in fact have more in common with the DC4/DC6/North Star than the Tudor although there was of course input from the parent company, at this time our industry was switching to more standard AN/Mill Spec and was breaking away from British hardware and engineering, I wont even mention Lucas Electrics!

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

The Jetliner basic airframe did in fact have more in common with the DC4/DC6/North Star than the Tudor

Probably for the best :\

[Noyade]

Avro Jetliner: Over the next few months, the teams at TCA and Avro refined the requirements, which were signed off on 9 April 1946. I've read that since they (Avro Canada) were refused permission to use the AJ.65 engines for civil use, the "design process continued" to incorporate four smaller R-R Derwents and that was only finalised in March 1947...?

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5923/jetliner.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/jetliner.jpg/)

[Kieron Kirk]

The following may be of some interest;
ADA:Avro Jetliner C102-North America's First (http://www.avroarrow.org/Jetliner/index.html)

Ciarain.

[rigpiggy]

My understanding was that the jetliner was ready to fly several weeks before the comet. However, they had orders from head office"UK" to resurface the long runway prior to flight tests, as such they could only do high speed taxi test on the xwind runway. Too bad, it would have been a world standard.

[Kieron Kirk]

The DH Comet first flew on 27th July 1949.

The Avro C-102 was nearly ready for the first flight on 25th July 1949.

Shortly afterwards the Canadian DoT decided to renew the runways and make other changes to the airfield layout.

The work was due to finish during the middle of August 1949.

Despite near heatwave temperatures and a shorter runway than would otherwise have been available, the Avro C-102 flew on 10th August 1949.

Ciarain.

[tornadoken]

Sir Geoffrey de Havilland, in his autobiog Sky Fever states that he selected the as-flown configuration in January,1947, abandoning Swallow tail-less schemes. Brabazon Committee Type IV, Express, in 1943 was for mail. Taking the 9 April,1946 design freeze date, on that day D.H.106 was not as we know it, so in that strict sense, C-102 was the first frozen jet transport design (2 UK turbojets, type to be confirmed).

It was however not a(n immaculately) Canadian conception.

Hawker Siddeley Group was trying to do many things at Avro, UK in 1944-46, including trying hard to screw DH on Type IV Express, Bristol on Type I Transatlantic (T.167 Brabazon I) and their fellow Heavy design teams on Type III (Empire). Turboprop Tudors and turbojet schemes abounded, all while trying till August,1945 to deliver Lincolns intended for Tiger Force. To hang a turbojet on Tudor was an obvious good notion looking for resources. Lancaster/York/Lincoln licencee Victory Aircraft was bought by HS Group on 1 December,1945 and given the job.