604 typed pilots in the UK

[keithskye]

Check out my post in the "seeking work" section here. I may need a Luton based F/O or co-Captain.

[BizJetJock]

Read all your blurb. Not sure who's the prima donna.

[Uncle Wiggily]

Spot on BizJetJock. KeithSkye sounds like he invented the airplane. Makes you wonder why "his" last FO left. lol

[Tamer]

"Makes you wonder why "his" last FO left."

He hasn't left, he's gone for a sly fag, then back to polish the main gear, blacken the wheels and get his hornpipe ready for next duty, to blow the captain aboard. Jeeeez

[Gulfstreamaviator]

There are still meglomaniacs around, but thought they were all in UAE.

glf

[keithskye]

At BizJetJock:

the "Prima Donnas" I'm referring to are those pilots I've worked with in the past, and those I've had the displeasure of interviewing recently, that have what is in my opinion a very poor work ethic. They come to the Corporate Aviation world expecting to fly like airline pilots - show up at the airplane, do a cursory pre-flight (if they can even be bothered), step into the cockpit and fly from point A to point B and then get out and head to the hotel bar within minutes of arrival (before any of you ex-airline types get angry, I too am an ex-airline pilot and although I am stereotyping here, you know what I mean). And these same pilots want a big salary and loads of benefits to boot, including all kinds of scheduled time off and holidays. I am sick and tired of those kind of pilots! Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that as a professional bizjet pilot, you should do whatever needs to be done, when it needs to be done, including work that "keeps you ahead of the maintenance curve" as one former chief pilot taught me many years ago. And everyone needs to remember that the whole reason bizjets exist in the first place is for the convenience of the owner.

The reality of the business world, and not just business aviation, is that things are tough all over financially, so in order to stay alive, companies, AND employees, have to do more with less. I am very happy to keep my job, especially now when I know that my employer's hotel business is suffering and there have been reductions in force in every part of his organization. My employer may own a 604, but he does not drive a glamorous car, nor does he wear expensive jewelry or clothes. If you met him on the street, you wouldn't ever suspect him of owning a business that operates hotels and offices on two continents. The point here is that my employer is not frivolous and if he says this is what the budget is, then that is what it is. He uses the aircraft as it was intended, as a business tool.

Back to the point: I often work harder than most of those that have ever flown with me. There are a few, and all are friends, who have worked just as hard or even harder, but its not the norm, sadly. After a typical 4-day trip, long after my F/O is gone home, I'll be home dealing with the huge pile of paperwork and phone calls that come with managing a small flight department by yourself. I do it because I have never been able to rely on anyone else to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done, and the budget is not there to hire someone just to do admin duties. It usually takes a day or two to get everything done, and if I'm lucky, I get a day or two to myself before going out on the road again. I get paid well for it, but I also do not have any benefits or perks outside of having the job by itself. No scheduled time off, no extra pilots to rotate in or out with, no health insurance, no holiday pay. I take my time off and holidays when I can, usually when the airplane is down or the boss is doing something that guarantees we won't be flying while he is doing it. That is the job. My boss was clear about it and I accepted it, so I do not complain when it is extremely inconvenient or I'm tired and don't feel like doing all that non-flying work that comes with it. When I offer a job to someone and am crystal clear about what is expected of them and what they in turn can expect, and then they accept the job and tell me "no problem, happy to do the work, etc.", and later they start complaining about it all, that makes them a Prima Donna in my eyes.

[keithskye]

Thanks for being such a good example of those I do not want working for me. :ok:

If you are put off by helping keep up the aircraft you fly, and get to treat as your own, then likely you have all sorts of other habits I'd not want to see in anyone I have to fly with. I got into Aviation because I LOVE airplanes and flying. I enjoy working on an airplane almost as much as I do flying it. I take great personal pride in the condition of the airplane I fly, inside and out. I'm not just some "airplane driver". If that's all you want to be, more power to you, but you won't fit in with me or my friends, who believe that "going the extra mile" is the norm, not the exception, when it comes to how you do your job, or do anything in life, really.

If you are put off by having to get your hands dirty :{, or do more than simply park your rear end in a cockpit seat, then I suggest you get your lazy rear end in gear and go start your own flying business. I doubt you even know how to do so, nor would I bet you'd last more than a week if you had to work as hard as you'd have to in order to make it successful. Oh, and make sure you hire only pilots that are exactly like you. After all, you guys obviously know all about how to be successful professionals. :D

And as for why my F/O is leaving, I can say that he actually was one of the few that did work hard when needed, and not only without complaint, but often asked if he could help in any other way. Its one of the reasons I hired him over so many that were far more "qualified" on paper. He was always polite and respectful, and he has a very strong work ethic, so much so that he is moving on to continue building two successful non-aviation related business that he got involved in last year, and may be starting a third business, also non-aviation related. He has admitted to the possibility of never flying professionally again, especially if his businesses are all successful, and knowing him, I think they will be. Someday, he may be the guy having a cup of coffee and reading the Wall Street Journal in the back of some bizjet. I wouldn't bet against him.

And if you take issue with me or my employer not wanting to hire a smoker as a crewmember, tough :mad: ! The non-smoking majority of the population knows exactly why we don't like having to work in close proximity to someone who smokes a lot. Ask any successful aicraft sales broker if the value of an aircraft goes up or down when you can smell a trace of cigarette smoke lingering on the fabrics and leather of the interior of the airplane and see what he says about it. I'm sure it won't be a positive.

My name is Keith McLellan. Care to share yours, either of you, even by PM? I want to make sure I have the correct file close at hand if your CV comes floating across my desk. And I will be sure to share your comments and your names with all the other Chief Pilots, Dir of Ops, Flight Department Managers and bizjet owners I know, many of whom are my friends or clients, so that they can file your CV in the appropriate circular file, too.

[keithskye]

Very cute! That took at least 90% of your brain capacity to come up with that one and it is a wonderful display of your consumate professionalism.

I'll bet you've also developed considerable skill flying your Microsoft Flight Sim and I bet that you believe you should be given the chance to show that such skill easily qualifies you to be in command of the hottest bizjets out there. I'm not worthy enough to be in the presence of such a master!

Keith

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Keith,

Totally agree: I don't smoke, and hate smoke, but being in corporate as opposed to private owner I am forced to be a passive smoker, both in the aircraft, and in the Middle East. My clothing needs a deep clean after every rotation, and as my other crew smoke, I can not excape.

There is an expression they if you need to ask the price you can not afford it.

This is also relevent to crew. Most crews will go the extra mile, if motivated by the carrot rather than the stick.

There is also a requirement that flight crew do not leave the 2 crew cockpit unless for a P/T break.
Serving the passengers should not be an option.

having worked for many operators, those that are the most professional, tend to be those still operating.

I can think of several D.L., (ex Coventry), and JCB, are two that no one unless desperate would ever recomend to a friend, or even enemy.
Plus one or two CP's that would make Hitler look tame, (AviaMost).

Your posts are very direct, I am sure you do a fantastric job for your master, but at what cost, (in the long term), to you and your co-pilot.

You have touched a nerve in almost all experienced crews, and will, I am sure, receive much hate mail.

I no longer fly CL aircraft so not tempted, but we all would love to keep in touch, with your operation, perhaps a sticky.!!!!!


glf

[INNflight]

There's definitely nothing more mature than fighting over something on an internet board hiding behind nicknames and giving someone a username subtitle because you did not like his thread.

Must be a boring day of stand-by in Novosibirsk I guess :suspect:

I am without a job, not typed on the CL and not within the area described, so the position is one I won't apply to, but all I can say is I prefer Keith's way of letting people know exactly what is necessary over someone not telling you anything and you only realize what you got into after the first few flights.

Being honest and clear about things will never be liked by most, I can just say some appreciate it - I do at least. :ok:

[PicMas]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0809/professionalism-demotivational-poster-1221161783.jpg (http://www.motifake.com/professionalism-demotivational-poster-20087.html)

[OutsideCAS]

Keith.......

I think many of us in this industry recognise the efforts put in by people such as yourself, i for one am more than happy to "go the extra mile", clean the a/c etc., etc.......i also (like others) recognise that times are perhaps not as buoyant as have been in the past and the need to save money where possible, BUT......you do come over a little "prima donna" in your posting, i appreciate you may have come across a few of the "wrong sort" when it comes to recruitment, but are you (your a/c owner) offering the right salary package to the prospective F/O to attract the calibre of candidate you seek ?? i ask this as i personally feel that you are right to expect your colleague on the flight deck to "muck in" as necessary and go the extra mile, but even given the current financial climate, i have this nigling suspicion you may well be trying to pay "peanuts" and this may prove the area you need to look at ?? as i say, just a suspicion and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong - hard work is to be expected but must be rewarded properly as well.

:ok:

[keithskye]

I am thankful to read the supporting posts here from some obviously very professional people who know of where I am coming from.

Let me reply in to each in turn:

Gulfstream Aviator - I think you have it much tougher than I do! My hat is off to you, seriously. I could not work under such conditions. As for how hard the two of us work for our boss and what it costs us? Not all that hard, really. My posts regarding what I am looking for in a crewmember always spell out what one can expect at worst, but the reality of the day to day job is a far cry from that and is quite pleasant really. I do far more work than the F/O, and after considerable research and input from many like yourself, I know that we are paid on the upper end of the scale. I do intend to start doing more though, to help eliminate some costs that the boss is paying for at the moment, such as keeping the aircraft clean ourselves (and that includes doing the brightwork). If kept up, it won't be very hard work and will only take up one day out of every week or two if the two of us don't lolligag around and just get it done. I know of what I speak here as I owned my own aircraft cleaning business when I was going to school and learning to fly (its how I paid for some of my training).

We are paid as independant contractors, so we do not get health care benefits, or the like, but we make enough to provide that for ourselves. Our recurrent training is paid for, our accomodations on the road are quite nice, and our per diem is adequate. Although we do not get regularly scheduled time off, our boss gives us plenty of notice normally as to when we are flying and when we are not. There are also large blocks of time where we know that we are not going to be flying. Some of those times are due to heavy inspections downtime on the aircraft, while others are due to the boss's schedule, where he is going to be in place for up to two or three weeks at a time. In all those instances, he always offers airline tickets to go home or someplace we choose to go, with the understanding that we are off duty and on our own when we get there. Our monthly salary is never affected by any of this and is always paid on time regardless.

I have had blocks of a month or more off, more than once in a given year in fact, and when you couple that with the fact that we only average around 275 hours flying in a year, there is no way that you could say we are over-worked, not for what we are paid. All in all, I would say I have a very nice job, and for the F/O, its even nicer!

Keith

[keithskye]

Thanks for the response! I do try to be as clear, open and honest about what one can expect on the job if you work for me or my boss. I don't "sugar coat it". Normally, the overall job is never as tough as the picture I may paint, but then that is the pleasant surprise, right?

However, as we all know, there are those days, those weeks, those trips that are a real ball buster, and leave you tired and worn out at the end. Those times exist in any operation, no matter how good it is. I just want the other guy I am working with to be the type that buckles down and pushes forward and gets the job done, WITHOUT complaint. A choice word or two (expletives included) about the situation is fine at the beginning of any unwelcome surprise, and can be quite amusing, but from that point forward, lets just deal with the situation and get it over with.

I like flying and working with people who just forge on ahead when things are tough and do what they can and don't complain about those things they can't do anything about.

~Keith

[keithskye]

ROTFLMAO!!!! That is classic!

[keithskye]

I think my response to Gulfstream Aviator answers your questions about whether or not we pay adequately. We pay at the high end of the scale. Not at the top, but well above the mid-range certainly, and when you factor in the actual work we do, the layovers we ususally have, and the things that the boss does for us and the time we do get off (even though it isn't scheduled), it would be very hard to argue that we are not paid well or that we work too hard, etc.

I won't give you exact numbers regarding what we get paid, but I will share this:

I am paid more than one hundred thousand pounds, and my F/O is paid more than seventy thousand pounds. We are paid in US dollars, so those amounts are after conversion to GBP, and adjusted for a higher exchange rate than is current. The British Pound Stirling will have to come up by a fair amount to reduce the pay I have stated here, so that should give you an idea of how far above that we are actually being paid.

As for the number of the "wrong sort" that I have interviewed or flown with, I am amazed at just how many there are! I guess I am old-fashioned and was raised differently. I do not come from a privileged background, at least not financially. My father instilled in me and enforced some very old-fashioned values like honesty, loyalty, taking pride in what you do and how you do it, and doing what you say you will do. He worked harder than any man I have ever known, maybe because he came from a very poor family that suffered greatly in the 1920's. I am thankful for having him as a role model in that way.

My family did not have the means to help pay for what I wanted, so I left home after high school to pursue my dreams. I have paid my own way and supported myself since leaving home at the age of 18. That includes paying for my college education, my PPL, CPL, IR, MEL, ATPL, and 3 of my 5 turbojet type ratings. I normally had more than one full time job and often during the summer months I had 3 jobs, and my own business. Am I a workaholic? I don't think so, but others may not agree. I do know that you don't get anything worthwhile in this life by waiting for it to come to you, and I work hardest and longest when I am working for myself or pursuing a particular goal.

I set a very high standard for myself, especially when it comes to flying, which is my greatest passion, and I try my damndest to hold myself to it, so why should I settle for less than that in anyone that I want flying and working with me?

[keithskye]

Well written post! I'd like to meet and buy you a beer sometime!

You have no idea how good it makes me feel to see that someone else has shared the same experiences I have had in trying to find the right person for the job and truly understands what is involved.

You've spelled out exactly what I am looking for in a pilot and fellow crewmember, as well as the challenges one faces in trying to find the person that best fits the role.


Keith

[OutsideCAS]

Keith.....many thanks for your reply......and i agree with your work ethic, given the nature of the salary estimations you give, i retract my previous post regarding "peanuts" - it appears from what you've said that indeed, for any F/O it is a good salary !!! shame you can't get the quality of colleague that you need, especially on the money - sure he/she will appear sometime soon.

Oh, just to clarify....i had visions of a salary being paid as per some of my colleagues......lets just say for the same job you allude to, they get paid approx. £25-30k GBP, and all as far as i'm aware go the extra mile etc. - As said before, i apologise for my assumption - i think we can agree that (£25-30k) is "peanuts" for the job :ooh::(.

:ok:

[keithskye]

No worries, mate! Thanks for the reply back!

I've had some great PMs and I am actually interviewing some fine candidates at the moment. A bit overwhelming with all the many applications! Even with what we have been paying, there are still a few who come to me asking for the job and then want to be paid more, while working less and having all sorts of benefits that I do not have myself, so that's why I get a bit annoyed, especially as I know that there are so many of us out there working hard for a lot less money.

Hope all is well with you,

Keith

[Uncle Wiggily]

Keith (ego has landed)..buddy. No disrespect meant, but the comical thing was that your post comes across as you being the Prima donna, cannot you not understand that? The first thoughts I had when I read your posts is that you suffer greatly from short-man complex or got picked on a bit too much in school. Relax, everything is fine, the sun will shine tomorrow and we can all be happy.

[keithskye]

Okay, I've cooled off. :) I'm sure I over-reacted, but you and Tamer caught me at just the wrong moment on a fairly rough day. I also looked up "Prima Donna" to see if I was not using the phrase correctly. This is one of the two definitions for "Prima Donna" that I found in the dictionary: "a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team".

When I refer to having to deal with, and trying to avoid, "Prima Donnas", I am talking about those pilots who have no discipline, do not want to work together to get the job done as part of the team, and complain loudly when they are asked to do something.

Now, I also know that another definition I've seen is this: "A temperamental, conceited person, egotistical, unreasonable and irritable, with a rather high opinion of themselves not shared by others".

I can see how you might think that I fit that definition :uhoh:, especially if you don't know me personally and possibly have not read other posts I have made, and I understand your comment based on that, but I think you took my original comments out of context. If I am irritable or annoyed, its because I have been having to deal with "Prima Donna" pilots who don't want to work hard and yet demand big salaries and benefits, and to top it all off, most of them don't have the qualifications or experience that would give them the right to even begin to act like that. Believe me, if you were in my shoes and were having to deal with the people I have had to deal with lately, you'd feel the same way I do!

If you read all of my threads and posts, check out my background and talk to people who work with me and fly with me, and then you still think I'm a Prima Donna after that, then so be it. We all have an opinion, but if asking or expecting that those that fly or work for me meet the same standards and requirements I hold myself to is being a Prima Donna, then you can call me that all day long.

Oh, and by the way, at 6'2" and 205 pounds, I definitely don't have "short man complex" nor was I ever picked on at school (except that one time when I was only 14 and I started dating that hot 17 yr old cheerleader...all the 17-18 yr old guys on the football team were quite put out by that and tried hard to dissuade me from treading on their "turf" - I happily fought all of them and proudly wore a black eye a couple of times, because she was well worth it)! :E

Keith

[papazulu]

"Prima Donnas"

For what it matters...the plural of "prima donna" is "PRIME DONNE" although in opera's singing it will be hard to find more than 1 in a single act. Otherwise she wouldn't be a prima donna! :E

As far as the F/O profile Keith is looking for, I would be more than happy to handle him my CV if I had the required rating. A job is posted, T&C's are explained, then we are all grown old men able to make decisions. And with decisions come responsibilities...

PZ :ok:

[keithskye]

PZ,

A type rating is required for the UK based CL604 F/O position, but for the right individual, we will at least finance it (interest free loan and at a very good price). If you have at least 2500 hours and some amount of multi-engine turbine time, and you are interested in the job, just PM me and I will give you my email address where you can send your CV. I have already picked out two pilots for positions on a US based aircraft, and this weekend I will be giving a sim check to the primary candidate I've picked for the UK F/O position. If he doesn't pass the sim check for some reason, I will be looking again.

And for those who PM'd me about the UK based Challenger that are Captain qualified, just spoke to the owner and he doesn't want another Captain, or I should say his budget won't support another one, so I am only able to offer an F/O salary. Sorry, guys. I fought for a bigger budget, but I didn't get it.

[cldrvr]

Keith, at least be honest, you don't want another Captain, you may get found out.

What utter rubbish, you are so full of it. You get paid 100k and you call that top of the market? Maybe in the US but here in Blighty you are underpaid buddy, proves it: pay peanuts get monkeys.

And stop advertising for PTF FO jobs, take out an ad and pay for the privilege.

[P Clipper]

Hi Keith,
I think your PM inbox might require a little clearout as I am unable to send you a message..

[papazulu]

I think your PM inbox might require a little clearout as I am unable to send you a message..

Yup, P Clipper was quicker than me! It seems you also cannot receive PM but via email, which needs to be kind of "authorised".

Regards

PZ :)

[Uncle Wiggily]

Keithskye: OK, cool....honestly, I hope you find the right person for your operation. It is no fun to be locked up with somebody you don't get along with.

Cheers,

UW

[clunckdriver]

Under another thread{Tansat Hiring, Canada forum} you will find a post in which a poster just cant understand why I am paid over market price in my dotage to fly a 421B, Keithskye, thank you, you just answered for me, hope you find an F/O as good as the young pilot sitting next to me these days! They are out there, just hard to find amoungst the mob!

[ap10046]

Hello Keith,
Trying to PM you but I think your inbox might be full?
Regards
AP

[TheChiefPilot]

Hi Keithskye,

I am unable to PM you but interested in any 604 work that you might require

Brgds

TCP

[deefer dog]

Keithskye, as you know there are many on these boards who have been out of work for some time. Blowing your own trumpet about your level of expertise and professionalism is one thing, I know that there are pilots who would happily work for less to get my job, but in the end, its up to the owner to decide whether the corner he cuts on salary is worth the risk of possibly having a less proficient and efficient crew holding his life and the life of his loved ones and business associates and guests in their hands.... I think it saved me and a group of other less experienced pilots when, as part of a group of 6 twin Cessnas on an air tour of the north side of the Grand Canyon, with snow showers increasing and visibility and ceiling dropping rapidly with us down inside the canyon, I told everyone to follow my lead and start climbing (on diverging headings for separation) and calling center for a squawk and a clearance, even though technically we were on a VFR-only passenger carrying tour flight and our aircraft were not "legal" to fly IFR. We all climbed out on top and flew back to home base without an incident...but advertising your salary repeatedly at just about every opportunity is highly likely to p***s many off.

I fly a CL604 based in the UK and I am paid $163,000 or at today's exchange rate 102,000 GBP
and just in case nobody read that, you repeat it...

I fly a CL604 based in the UK and I am paid $163,000 or at today's exchange rate 102,000 GBP or 117,000 Euro. I get $120/day per diem...

and for good measure, incase we missed it twice....

What I've learned is that my income on the bizjet side is very good for what I do (about 100K GBP)...Are you surprised that you attract derogatory remarks?

[clivewatson]

Keith, on 4th June you grab the interest of those seeking work by reminding them that you are still looking for a 604 Captain. That subsequently changed to an FO position (did you really want a Capatin..I doubt it?)

Two days later you tell us that you have received many PM's and applications, and have interviewed many fine candidates. You tell us it was overwhelming; I wonder how you found the time to continue posting on pprune.

I guessed you worked hard though, because the same day you appear to have made a choice and tell us all that you have arranged a sim check for your favourite candidate. I wish him or her well, but surely it begs the question why you still (in the same post) invite more to apply? Are you a serial advertiser as well as a serial salary announcer?


Another observation. When questioned as to why your previous co-pilot was leaving, you provide us with two completely different reasons. In answer to the suggestion that he may have left to escape you, (sounds reasonable to me) you tell us about his other non aviation related business interests. On another forum posted much earlier, you tell us that "you took a chance on hiring him....but sadly it didn't work out."

Something doesn't add up...not sure what it is though. You have told us a thousand times of your experience, excellence as pilot, how many vacancies you have filled of late, and of course your salary. In view of the fact that I post using my real name, please DO ignore any application I may accidently submit to you if I find myself in the unfortunate position of needing work.