Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months

[IFF]

After largely closing its doors to new recruits during the 2009 downturn, Emirates plans to hire more than 700 pilots over the next 18 months to support new routes and aircraft.

The airline has embarked on a recruitment roadshow that will take in much of Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas. It kicked off on 4 June in Madrid, one of six new destinations this year. It has already begun services from Dubai to Tokyo and Amsterdam, with Prague, Baghdad and Dakar to follow.

Emirates - which has a 147-strong fleet with six aircraft due to arrive this year, part of 144 on order - traditionally recruits only first officers.

Capt Alan Stealey, divisional senior vice-president flight operations, says Emirates is recruiting at a time when much of the industry is cutting back. The airline recently took delivery of its ninth Airbus A380 and will accept number 10 within days.

"That's two giant aircraft to staff in the space of a fortnight," he says. "By the end of the year we will have recruited more than 250 pilots. Next year, we're looking to double that figure and recruit 500."
http://http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/03/342734/emirates-to-recruit-700-pilots-in-next-18-months.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/06/03/342734/emirates-to-recruit-700-pilots-in-next-18-months.html)

[bowing]

Get out the Arab Dictionaries and the sunglasses esp after the news lately coming out of VB.:ok:

good to have other options available:)

safe flying

[Shark Patrol]

one of six new destinations this year

Pity Qantas can't think outside the square and try something new ... Chicago, Dallas, Paris, Rome ... something??!!??

The premium market is supposedly picking up and for the first time in the last 3 years, Qantas may have some excess capacity available when the next A380s arrive. So what's the big picture plan? Retire 400s to the desert, leave many, many mainline pilots sitting around on assigned leave, set up a new (even cheaper no doubt) low-cost operation in Singapore to fly low-cost operations to Europe and hire cadets for Jetstar.

Unbelievable!!!!!

[KABOY]

Nothing like recruiting employees when their under duress. This should keep a lid on their terms and conditions for another couple of years!

[neville_nobody]

Unfortunately Shark Patrol QF is poorly geographically positioned as opposed to Emirates. QF are really only looking at an Australian market as opposed to Emirates who can take you from one part of the world to the other. Emirates open Madrid and they can offer flights from all of Asia and Australia and Africa connecting to the Madrid flight. QF are not going be able to expand like that.

[Grey Nomad]

It may be worthwhile updating the CV and submitting an application especially
if you are employed by VA. With the impending reduction in flying and therfore a surplus of crews it may be one of the only options available.

[fasterblaster]

How do they crew their larger aircraft in regards to a second officers?

Do they use FOs, cadets or what??

[Showa Cho]

I'd urge anyone looking to apply for Emirates to check the Middle East section of this forum for news and information. It makes for excellent reading. The money may look good in AUD, but Dubai isn't all sugar and spice.

Cheers,

Showa.

[Wizofoz]

How do they crew their larger aircraft in regards to a second officers?

Do they use FOs, cadets or what??

We don't employ second officers.

Three crew is 1 Captain, 2 F/Os.

We recently got approval to crew 4 man crews as one Captain 3 f/os, but for ops flexability still crew all ULR (JFK,LAX,SFO,IAH,YYZ and GRU) 2 Captains, 2 F/Os

I'd urge anyone looking to apply for Emirates to check the Middle East section of this forum for news and information. It makes for excellent reading. The money may look good in AUD, but Dubai isn't all sugar and spice.



True enough, there are certainly challenges here and many are not Happy. Some of us, however, are enjoying life and appreciating the advantages of being here.

It's not as good as it was, but it's still a good package.

[Eclan]

Ah yes Wizofoz but to get even a third pilot, your EK crew has to fly a LOT longer than anyone else. Otherwise it's TWO pilots. Back of clock sectors, both ways on some trips, NINE hours plus. TWO pilots. Enjoy fellas.....

[mattyj]

Why bother going on a roadshow...just go to the 'ol U.S...should be able to draw a sizeable crowd in the outer carpark of LAX..

..in fact if they offer hot soup and bread long queues of veteren jet pilots will begin to form quickly in most cities!

[caneworm]

caveat emptor lads, the sand is not greener.

[Wizofoz]

Ah yes Wizofoz but to get even a third pilot, your EK crew has to fly a LOT longer than anyone else. Otherwise it's TWO pilots. Back of clock sectors, both ways on some trips, NINE hours plus. TWO pilots. Enjoy fellas.....

Our FTLs are a direct cut'n'paste of CAP 371, the British legislation.

It's almost identical to the exemption to CAO 48 I used to fly under at Ansett, EXCEPT we could do 1000hrs/year under that, while we are limited to 900 here.


Much more restrictive than US. Canadian or most other European FTL schemes.

Yes, there are night trips and they are no fun- they very much remind me of the BOC SYD-PER-SYD trips that made up 80% of my flying for 4 years as a 767 FO at Ansett, or the three-in-a-row night trips to Greece I used to do flying Charter in the UK.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.....

[Chronic Snoozer]

Wiz,

You seem to be one of the more level-headed respondents wrt the ME. What would be the attraction of a domestic Oz pilot to Emirates? (I say that considering the relatively high mins required for Emirates) What promotion prospects? Any hint at all of Oz basings for Mrats bograts?

Cheers

[motley flight crue]

Wiz of oz is full of ****.
Our FTL is the loosest on earth. E.G ICN - DXB pushing 10 hours flight time. Depart midnight. sign on 1 hour before departure, except you really start
1 hr 45 mins before departure. Discretion ( I never do ) extensions of duty, annex 1. That is just one flight.

The package is average. It is defiantly not worth leaving the best country on earth for. The cost of DXB is very high. The package will increase in the near future. The new recruits are not up to par, we need 700 good guys and gals, ie
you lot for one, they will start to pay for quality again soon.

I don't want to be all negative. Good route structure, excellent flight crew to work with, decent roster bidding, and good lifestyle to see your mates. You will work for your money, and some of the back of the clock flying is nothing like your used to at home.

Good luck, think long and hard, do your research, and if at the roadshow ask if what you read in the mid-east forum is true.

PS to answer a question above. NEVER EVER Basings anywhere. EK would not get away with most things if unions were involved. In DXB they have absolute Power over you.

[SilverSleuth]

I personally know about 5 ex VB Captains who went chasing the widebody dream and greener pastures a few years ago. ALL are trying to get back to VB as EMB FO's just to get back to oz. As someone said do your research carefully. Anyone who knows about EK will tell you the golden days are long gone.

[Wizofoz]

Wiz of oz is full of ****.
Our FTL is the loosest on earth.

Up yours Motley. You have no idea what you are talking about and make yourself look like a dork by displaying your ignorence.

ICN is a ball-breaking trip. It would also be legal under British, US, Canadian and the Australian exemption some airlines operate under.

Ansett used to do Tokyo-Sydney, BOC in both the 767 and 747. 11hrs at some times of the year.

Under the US FARs a two man crew can do a 16hr, unlimited sector day after an 8hr rest period.

Our FTLs allow rosters that are very tiring. They are imperfect and being pushed to the limit.

But making statements like "Loosest on Earth" (ignoring the fact you were needlessly insulting as well as plain wrong) is the sort of stupid, exagerated, hysterical hyperbola that makes so much of our proffestion look like spoilt school girls.

If you like, I'll PM you my mobile and I'm more than happy to discuss how "Full of ****" I am in person.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Motley,

Thank you for your level-headed :rolleyes:response. It would be interesting to know why VB Captains no less, allegedly have moved to Dubai and now wish to return. The golden age of aviation appears to have passed in many countries including Australia.

[clear to land]

Anyone who joins EK with a view to one day getting a basing ANYWHERE EXCEPT DUBAI is joining under a complete delusion. Company policy is NO BASINGS...PERIOD! (NB this may one day be revisited if there is a complete change of Senior Management, but EK is an integral part of DXB Inc-that means recycling Money with TOTAL AND COMPLETE control. Unions , or indeed organised labour, are illegal).

At present the seniority list stops somewhere North of 2300. Normal attrition is approximately 2-3%. If you joined now with any idea that you will have a Command within 8-10 years you are again delusional-or unable to compute simple arithmatic! If you took a long term view, and keeping in mind that proviso for D.E.C's still exists, and want to see the world then come and have a look. It IS great experience, and most guys you work with are great: although as far as the pilots go staff disengagement is TOTAL; but bloody hard work with multiple back of the clock 11hr plus duties, plus huge East/West Time Zone changes on a weekly basis (B777).

Finally, this is the Middle East-it is VERY DIFFERENT, you have NO right to challenge or question anything the company does: I will repeat that: You have NO right to challenge!!!. Your contract pertains to the bond only, all other conditions are subject to change at the Company's whim, and the changes are non-contestable. Look at the Middle East Forums to see how things have degraded in the last few years. Come here with your eyes wide open. Whatever you choose, ultimately it is your decision, they don't make you sign on. Caveat Emptor.

[Wizofoz]

You seem to be one of the more level-headed respondents wrt the ME. What would be the attraction of a domestic Oz pilot to Emirates? (I say that considering the relatively high mins required for Emirates) What promotion prospects? Any hint at all of Oz basings for Mrats bograts?


SC,

As you can see, being "level headed" is akin to being a heretic with some at EK!

It's very much up to the individual as to whether coming here would be a good move. From a financial standpoint you are probably going to do better in the long run than the likes of J* or Tiger, but money isn't everything.

Command probably 5 or 6 years for someone joining now.

Lifestyle? Definatley not a laid-back existence like Aus. The driving is crazy, service is hit-and-miss and during summer it is just STUPID hot.

It is, however, an interesting look at how the world works, the machines are nice and the destinations second to none.

Were I currently a VB 737 Captain, I wouldn't leave it for an F/O slot here.

But a newish Tiger F/O? I can see the attraction.

Basings? We live in hope but I wouldn't come here on the expectaion.Good chance it will never happen.

At present the seniority list stops somewhere North of 2300. Normal attrition is approximately 2-3%. If you joined now with any idea that you will have a Command within 8-10 years you are again delusional

CTL- Factor in the fact we still have 140 aircraft on firm order, with probably more to come.

Finally, this is the Middle East-it is VERY DIFFERENT, you have NO right to challenge or question anything the company does: I will repeat that: You have NO right to challenge!!!. Your contract pertains to the bond only, all other conditions are subject to change at the Company's whim, and the changes are non-contestable.

I see you have taken this recent myth and run with it. The letter of employment is a binding contract. Would you please give one example of where the company has actually breached the letter of that document? (Note, niether the 3% increment nor productivitey is mentioned in it. Utilities is and if they charged for them it would be a breach. In spite of the cap I am not aware of anyone actually being charged for going over it.) If it were breached you would have redress both in the UAE Labour court and the country in which you signed it.

[motley flight crue]

WIZ go sulk under you rock ( sand ) PM me your mobile. AS if I want to talk to you. I get enough pointless calls in DXB from financial whatevers.
Calm down, Loosest on earth, just want people to know how crap our rosters CAN be. Yes other airlines have similar FTL's, but do they push them to the limits we often experience.

please show me another airline that does DXB - SFO 2 days off and DXB - SYD. Then again fatigue is a myth to guys like you is it?

Anyway everyone make your own mind up, don't listen to us, what would we know. Just don't complain 6 months after you join.

[Wizofoz]

Just don't complain 6 months after you join.

Unlike you?

That would be so funny if it didn't show what a dick you are...

[DGR]

Wizofoz,

I don't want to get into the debate about the relative merits of EK FTL and living in the sandpit, but I must correct your recollection of Ansett's Japan operation. AN never operated to Tokyo, the only destination was KIX, and the BOC flight was KIX-BNE, not KIX-SYD. From memory the scheduled flight time time was less than 9 hours. Also that was only operated by the B747 not the B767.

[captaintunedog777]

WIZFOZ

Son. What colour are your glasses? I know of an ex Emirate Captain who quit the desert to fly a simulator in Brisbane. The flying was life destroying. He must have taken quite a pay drop as well.

[Wizofoz]

DGR,

Thanks for that. Point is, everything we do at EK would have been legal under the AN exemption, AND we got to do an extra 100hrs per year.

A380- Good news- silly to have the guy sitting in the back, though, when he could be helping out.

Capt777,

See, this is what annoys me. Read my posts. I try and give a fair and balanced view of the good and the bad here, but anything but a hysterical, totally negative post as seen from most here (who, you might notice, seem to choose to stay. There is at least one regular poster on the ME board who has been bitching incessantly, saying how he's leaving if things don't improve, for almost FIVE YEARS!) meets with derision and insult.

We are working bloody hard to an extent that is acknowledged as unsustainable. I start a week tonight that will leave me totally buggered. My point is that's the game and I've had periods the same pretty much everywhere I've worked, and next month my Family and I fly free, business class to JFK for leave.

Yes some have left. One guy I know is leaving to become a Real Estate salesman and I wish him all the very best.

But a lot more are coming than leaving and most, in spite of the whining, are staying.

[clear to land]

Wiz, I believe I too was trying to give a 'balanced' view, by stating fact. Although I don't-yet-know of anyone charged for utilities, the Company have informed all that this will be the case-a flagrant contract violation, and the cause of much angst for many of our peers. You are correct in your statement about the 3% etc as far as my contract goes, but I have friends who have been here well over 10 years whose employment agreement categorically states the increment. Mine (and yours) does it by inference, and if one was to expect 'good faith' on the part of EK, we would have received the increments we were all supposed to for the last couple of years. May I suggest you talk to some EK airport staff outside DXB, who were also categorically told 'no increment'. The company kept this up until faced with the prospect of the AIRC, and then magnanimously decided, at the eleventh hour (and the threat of legal action for contract breach) to pay, with no explanation whatsoever to the staff for the extremely aggressive response they got when first queried. Unfortunately, to the dismay of EK, in the first world the staff have rights and industrial protection.

FTL's: for most they are just that, a limit. For us they are a Target, with no thought of the future consequences of long term fatigue (consider the Orwellian response: We have studied this and you are not fatigued), and the fact that we have numerous pilots on 'forced leave' due to the fact they have hit their 900 hrs. That is notwithstanding that the 900hrs are in reality 1000-1100 as time in the bunk (or simulator, or doing any of the dozen plus mandatory Pelesys courses, SEP's, CRM etc) does not count for FTL's. I don't know of any other major carrier that doesn't count all time on company directed employ for the purposes of duty.

As far as my statement that we have no right to challenge, it was meant in reference to the movement of the overtime threshold, the constant changes in the Medical Insurance (limits on physio etc), the changes to ALT destination conditions for our Nth American colleagues etc...the list goes on, and we can not redress any of this.

The 140 aircraft on order include fleet replacement, I still stand by my assertion that a new joiner would be unlikely to have command prospects in less than 8 years, assuming of course that the Company doesn't arbitrarily change the Upgrade requirements again.

As my previous post said, this is not home. You have none of the rights that you take for granted (unfair dismissal hearings, legal defences etc). If you upset the wrong person you are history, as decisions cannot be reversed due to 'loss of face'. If you come here with your eyes wide open, you may still enjoy yourself, that comes down to the individual experience. I am here because it still works for me, but I do have an exit strategy and a definite time frame.

[Wizofoz]

Hi CTL,

That IS a well balanced post, but I do disagree with a couple of points-

Your first paragraph seems to actually confirm what I said. i.e Emirates have not broken the letter of the contract (Increments only ever went to ten years, didn't they? So anyone here ten years was on top increment anyway), and if they did, the respondent has redress in the courts of the country the agreement was signed in.

Of course we don't have legal redress for reduction in conditions the company weren't legally bound to provide. Dissapointing, certainly, but you can only ever count on what is in black and white. An "Implied" right, like a verbal contract, isn't worth the price of the paper it's written on!

As to FTLs, sorry, but EVERY company (bar one) I have worked for has treated then as a target. At easyJet we had to sub-charter in aircraft every year as the majority of our pilots hit their 900hr limit. At Ansett we had guys hitting the 1000hrs. Not saying it's right or good, but it isn't unique by any means.

Factoring is a crock and I suspect will not last given some time.

Simulator and Ground duty IS duty for the purpose of max duty time and required days off/ rest periods. It is NOT credit time for pay purposes. Again, this varies in other companies. In AN you got credit for Sim, at EZ you didn't. In NONE of them did it count towards monthly or yearly hour limits.

Yes we will retire some aircraft, but the current orders do mean a substantial net gain in numbers. But, my crystal ball is no clearer than yours. Could be four years, could be twelve. I agree that anyone joining now better be resigned to a sizable spell in the RHS.

Totally correct that we don't have anything like the legal framework and protections we do at home.Anyone coming HAS to understand they are coming to a place with a completely different set of values when it comes to the law, employment, fairness and morality.

That is one of the things that makes Australia such a great place to live.

And THAT is one of the reasons Australian airlines can be such S@#T employers and still get as many applicants as they need!!

[EK_Bus Driver]

Wiz,

I do not wish to stir things up, as this thread is quite obviously turning into a P!ssing contest. You make some very good points and you are obviously relatively happy in the sandpit and good for you (you are one of the few). Some of the other posters have made good points also. However, as an Ex AN driver I have flown the SYD-PER-SYD, MEL-PER-MEL and KIX-BNE-SYD many times and I can honestly say (my opinion) it is nowhere near as knackering as doing 3 night turnarounds at EK! This Company's FDL's are a disgrace, especially when it comes to "factoring". The recent change to the PEK, PVG, ICN flights are typical. I.E. Just change the table (number of sectors not acclimatized) eh voilà! No problem now boys, it's fixed!

How many more fatigue related ASR's to these Bozo's in the 'Bouncy Castle' actually need to stop pontificating and telling us how good the outfit is and how we are all bloody lucky to have a job and actually wake up and smell the Coffee! The EK 407 tailscrape should have been a wake up call as should the JNB, ACC and MAN "incidents".

E.K. Use these FDL's (their "interpretation" of CAP 371) as goal posts! Not a Red line!

The "Contract" I was initially given stated that there were 18 increment years??

To form a balanced view, remind us all please what the pay overtime threshold was at AN? And vs EK?

How much money did this company make this FY?
What was the profit target? and What was our profit share this FY?

How much more flying do we do now?
How much LESS pay do we get now?
How was this Company able to make so much money this FY?

How much annual Leave are we entitled to each year?
What is the maximum consecutive days we can take?
If we do take any leave, is there any credit for it??

Guys and Girls as has been already said, look VERY carefully before you leap. All that glitters is not Gold, and the grass is not always greener, just another shade of brown!

This USED to be a very good job, not any more!!

Take care and fly safe :}

[Wizofoz]

EKBD,

Most happy to bow to your experience as to the long haul at AN. I find three night t/as to India at EK about as tiring as doing 3 night T/as to Greece while Charter flying in the UK. I don't know how often I have to say that I'm not saying the FTLs at EK are anything but knackering. They are just not any worse than many other regulations and better than some (Guys going to Turkish will soon find that out!!)

No idea how many increments in older contracts, I thought it was 10. Perhaps a longer serving guy could fill us in? Point being has anyone with a contractual right to an increment not been given it? Was the increment in yours a contractual obligation on the part of the company?

What has the OT threshold at AN got to do with anything? Are you considering leaving AN to come to EK or visa-versa- You'd find either difficult. People need to compare what is AVAILABLE to what they have- not what happened in a company that dissapeared a decade ago. In any case, it's the bottom line, not the means of calculation that counts.

After the biggest financial crisis in almost a century, we got a pay rise and a bonus, when many commentators said we'd get neither. Neither was huge, but was better than nothing. They have set a target for this year and are obliged to calculate next years bonus based on that.

We are currently doing an unsustainable amount of flying governed by an imperfect FTL scheme and not gaining any extra pay for it. We'd be getting paid much better if the Productivity threshold had not been shifted. I wish it hadn't, I'd certainly like the money!

But are you planning to leave? In overall terms is there a better option for you? If not, how can you know EK is not a BETTER option for a lot of guys in companies you DON'T want to go and work for?

[fourgolds]

900 hrs a year is the target .they are pushing the regulator for 1000.You will work very hard. You will be treated like the aircrafts tire. The minute its worn out they will simply buy another tire.

A contract that is changeable with a simple " contract adjustment letter" without any negotiation or recourse.
so here it is written , Your contract will not be honoured.

the ability to get fired under the supervision of a training captain. So you better start your line training being a very sharp pencil indeed.
( F/O under training fired for a go around at Manchester). oh and even though you are terminated you will have to pay your training bond.

Forget about basings , you need to understand the way this place works.
the Sheikh wants everyone living here contributing to Dubai's local economy ( to rid their dependance on oil). eg kids in school , grocery shopping , buying a car etc etc.
Basings will never happen.

Gents and ladies , by all means give it a go . But make an informed decision. Speak to mates you know here and " listen" .
The recruitment machine is a one of the fanciest mouse traps ever designed. You will be lied to directly .

Consider condider consider.


.

[ProteaPete]

The Education allowance is not a part of the contract but it IS in the Conditions Document. It was 100% of the cost up to a certain value when I joined. TCK issued a letter stating they thought it was important to "contribute" to your child's upbringing and the coverage was cut to 90%. They can do this because it's not in the contract. Only the bond is in the contract.

The housing deal is not a part of the contract but it IS in the Conditions Document. It was a three bedroom apartment for an FO without children. The reality many new-joiners have found AFTER they've sold up and moved to EK lately is it's two bedrooms for them and the wife and all their gear. They can do this because it's not in the contract. Only the bond is in the contract.

The utilities deal is not a part of the contract but it IS in the Conditions Document. It was previously covered 100% but not there's a cap. True, the cap surplus has not been charged as far as anyone knows but this is only due to the utterly SHAMBOLIC system DEWA runs. In their unseemly zeal for ripping people off, they have made it impossible to gain access to the bills. Even EK cannot tell who owes what and so we've not heard anymore about it. FOR NOW. When they sort it out, they will start charging the expats for their utilities; nothing could be more certain. Not ALL of them; only the ones who live in villas. Oh and not the management either. Just the pilots. They can do this because Utilities are not in the contract. Only the bond is in the contract.

The pay scales are not a part of the contract but were bundled to me with the Conditions Document. I signed that 10 page document but they did not. In fact they didn't care if I signed it. They can ignore my payscale schedule because it's not in the contract. Only the bond is in the contract.

Last year they did exactly that. No incremental increase despite their promise. Several years ago, we received payrises of around 10% (still well below the double-digit boom-town rate of local inflation) because they were desperate for pilots. Last year, when they were comfortable with pilot numbers, they erased those gains in one fell swoop by increasing the overtime threshold rate to the monthly maximum we can legally do over a 12 month period. They can do this because pay rates are not in the contract. Only the bond is in the contract.

Would you like more examples?

I suspect Mr. Wiz will say, "Well there you go. It wasn't in the contract so you cannot complain." True. I try not to complain here about non-existent breaches of contract but I do not like being LIED TO. But being LIED TO is something you must get used to at EK or pull your hair out in frustration. Conditions elsewhere might be similar but the LIES and the HATRED of pilots by management at EK eclipses anything I have ever seen or heard of anywhere else. Remember the Irish git? TCK? TCTC? TCAS's blatant LIES at last year's meetings? TCED's anti-pilot buffoonery?

MY CONTRACT HAS BEEN UPHELD. I SIGNED A CONTRACT BONDING MYSELF TO EK FOR THREE YEARS AND NOTHING MORE. IF I LEFT, I WOULD'VE BEEN FORCED TO PAY UP. THE BOND HAS EXPIRED. EK HONOURED MY "CONTRACT" BUT THEY HAVE CHANGED EVERYTHING ELSE OF IMPORTANCE WHICH I THOUGHT I HAD IN A CONTRACT BUT IN FACT DID NOT.

By the way, something else important to the employee - LEAVE. Also not in the contract and they've fiddled with that too. Forced allocations of a few days here, a few there. No longer any credit for leave so you will still fly as much of a full month of flying as they can squeeze into the remaining days - minus the DAYS OFF - so that the only difference to any other month is 5 of your 42 days leave has been frittered away and they are happy! Aussies will no doubt soon get tired of jetting back to Australia for a 5 days break. It's just too far.

You get driven to work in a limousine. Well its an Audi car. The reason they pick you up is not because you are valued; it's so that you can be delivered to work approximately 55min before your duty commences. This is necessary as the crew bus to the aircraft leaves the HQ 10min before the duty actually commences (at 1hr before ETD). And the briefing ends 10min before THAT (ETD-20min) so you need all that extra off duty time to do your required briefings, talk to the crew, etc. or the flight would be late. Nearly an hour of off-duty time spent working every time you go to work - Illegal? Unethical? It's SOP at EK.

The best part is, although you're technically off-duty for the first 40-55 min of the work day and therefore not accruing Duty Time, you can and will still be Drug and/or Alcohol Tested and prosecuted if you fail!

Oh the weather..... temps in the 40s all this week. Humidity getting to "extreme" now and will stay that way until end of October. It has to be felt to be believed.

I've heard they're canceling or have canceled the free flight to Dubai for the interview. They only offer that when they're desperate. Rest of the time they charge the prospective employee for the privilege of the interview. Better hurry.....

[Mr. Hat]

Regardless of where you work this is good news for all pilots. Let the party begin.

[Flight Detent]

Hi ProPete...

Good post, I sort of got the point...

A few years ago, when I was flying for Air Atlanta, I could have sworn you were talking about them!!

But at least we had proper 3 man crews in the 747s then....

Cheers...FD...:)

[another superlame]

I have also heard that Emirates will be in Oz later this year looking for engineers.
No doubt QF and AMSA have some young engineers with A380 experience, of course Emirates would be happy to take them to the Sandpit for whalejet maintenance. Why train when you can pilfer.

[halas]

Ask the ex-engineers in Christchurch how well they were treated. And Houston, LAX and San Francisco......

halas

[another superlame]

Halas,how were they treated?

[fourgolds]

Pro Pete , sorry but I dont know when you got your agreement/contract.

Mine says under the title Response on pg 9 " This contract of employment" bla bla


The training bond is mentioned on pg 7 . This is on the same contract

although another agreement was also draughted to explain more details of the training bomd.

So all I see is the word contract on the document that I signed and they have reneged on a few paragraphs in the said contract . Fact.

Its possible they changed this to use the word agreement on later documents ( new hires) but not on mine. Even if this is the case it just validates my origonal point. That you join here with absouloutely nothing to go by. What is on offer is all heresay. They may as well promise you a command in 6 months , basings anywhere in the world and a rolls royce to transport you to work. Any agreement /contract/ piece of paper is worth squat. Any verbal statement by the recruitment team is equally as worthless.

[ennui]

And in the said Rolls Royce, you will still need to wind the window down to breathe some fresh air in the middle of 50 deg summer heat, because your sub-continental driver has been living, eating, sleeping and farting in it for his 12 hour shift, in unwashed clothes due to his accomodation issues!

Even the smell of brand new leather can fail to cover a the reality of life as an expat!

[guntslapper]

Any Virgin Blue FO want to swap his job for mine?
I'll gladly go back to Oz and short haul...

[abc1]

What a laugh, seriously, no unions in DXB but hey there are unions in Aus right? Just ask some of the unfortunate FO's how they were approached about their career options when it came to the probable redundancies fiasco and how they were subsequently treated.
Or the sister tripler fellows that interviewed recently and didn't get the nod, and not because of inability but rather being cheaper and more useful to the company in their current role.

They are happy recruit from the street because it costs them nothing as they can make money from eager ''jet'' wishing people but give internal applicants no means of a career progression.

Gunslapper, if you think that you have made an uninformed decision once by joining EK,please do learn from it, especially when suggesting a role swap.
If you want to be served by an absent minded 18 yearold and be told '' 2 dollars for a can of coke'' then please do join the ''get what you want'' fallacy.

[stealthone]

Guys, contracts are legally binding documents and can't be changed unilaterally. Both parties have to argee to any change. A common law states that once the precedent is set the company can't retract any benefit given even if it's not mentioned in the employee T&Cs unless the company is under restructuring and downsizing.
However, any disagreement with newly implemented T&Cs has to be submitted in writting to the HR within 7 days of such unilateral action. A stamped copy should be retained and the legal action can be instigated at any time even after a few years.
The rejection of new terms and conditions can be done independently or in a group. Well, all of you need to grow some balls and do something about it right after the attack on your T&Cs occurs. Moaning on this forum is not going to help anyone. The new terms are practically accepted by lack of response after a reasonable period and become the current contract. So all of you accepted new T&Cs by keeping quiet and only venting your anger on forums like this. Common law is enforceable in any country. I had similar problems with one of my previous employers in the past and the issue was handled in the above stated manner. They backed down and didn't even try to sack me, otherwise my lawyers would have laughed all the way to the court.
Let me tell you that most of you were psychologically evaluated and carefully selected by EK as being the least trouble makers (yes people). EK does not recruit the best pilots but best EK pilots. No wander they can get away with murder.
Good luck and enjoy the shaft.

[ferris]

Common law is enforceable in any country.That's hysterical. You might want to stick to posting things you know about.

[hongkongfooey]

Guys/gals, ignore the nay-sayers and negative people and go to Dubai, or come to the Fragrant Harbour, it's bloody fantastic !!....I wanna go home :E cough cough cough

[Padania]

Guys and gals,

One word of advice if I may. Think long and hard prior to leaving Oz for the Middle East. It is not a nice place in any way. To put up with living here they have to make it attractive and you need to be compensated adequately either financially, through lifestyle and or career wise through quick upgrades. Currently not one of those boxes are ticked at EK. It is simply not worth coming here anymore. All these boxes were ticked several years ago with great rostering and accelerated command upgrades , decent profitshare,cheap cost of living etc. These things are all gone now. If you want to experience fatigue, try short haul roster patterns with ultra long haul east - west flying. The cost of living has literally doubled in the time I have been here. As an FO here with a young family and a mortgage back home you will find it very difficult to get ahead financially. This being the case I would much prefer to live some where nice like OZ and not get ahead financially there with a better quality of life. But by all means come and join so you can open up some job opportunities for us back in OZ.

[neville_nobody]

stealthone excellent post and you are exactly spot on, except that it only works in common law democracies which I don't believe Dubai is.....

So the deal is you go there and play the game, if you don't like it you leave. And you are correct in that if everyone resigned at the same time then Emirates would change their contract.

[remoak]

Common law is enforceable in any country

You clearly know absolutely nothing about how the legal system in Arab countries works. For a start, it based on the premise that if something happens, it must be your fault as you are the foreigner - if you hadn't been there, it wouldn't have happened etc.

In Arab countries, the law is essentially whatever the Sheiks and mullahs say it is. Same goes for lots of Asian countries too (although you can substitute local politicians/apparatchiks for Sheiks and mullahs).

[stealthone]

Who cares about what sheiks and mullahs say, it's about whether pilots are prepared to rattle the cage and fight for basic rights. Asian countries are hardly democracies but refusal to accept unilateral changes worked for me and some of my mates. Just imagine the situation where 1000 pilots walk into the HR office to submit their letters stating refusal to accept the contract change. I guess the legal team taking care of EK's matters is just going to lay back and laugh. Yeah I'd like to see that.
Oh no they would just put everybody into jail. For what? Challenging the management, ha ha. Yeah, that's why we have our consullar offices world wide, so put them to use.
I guess EK management would love to be in the center of the world's press attention aka 'EK being sued by pilots for contract breach'. At the end of the process so much feared sheikhs and mullah are just going to deliver the verdict that pilot contract can be breached because 'the contract' is one way street and it's not worth the paper it's written on.
Hmm, good then everyone is entitled to breach contracts, just go there get the type rating waste as much of their money and 5 months later disappear to some other airline.
Grow some spine for goodness sake.

[remoak]

Stealthone

I love that you think you could sue EK. In what court? certainly no court in the Middle East. Yeah, sue them in California, I'm sure they will recognise the verdict... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Asian countries... ever heard of sweatshops? Enterprises that contravene basically every human right, yet are permitted (and condoned) by the governments of the countries where they exist. There goes your "basic human rights".

You seriously think any consular office is going to get involved in a labour dispute? You must be a complete imbecile.

You work in the Middle East, you play by their rules, not some European view of how the world should be.

Idiot.

[ferris]

Stealthone, before you post anything further on a subject you clearly know nothing about and make an even bigger fool of yourself: One of the biggest changes I felt after moving to the middle east was the loss of the Rule of Law, and the loss of that avenue of redress. It is palpable. People in oz often don't believe it, but it is. You either get used to it, or leave. You have to accept that if you have a minor car accident with a local, it WILL be your fault. If you are involved in an accident with injuries, you will go to jail until it's sorted out. If you have a contract/labour dispute with your employer, if it's the govt- lots of employers are the govt or arms of the govt (such as EK)- you wont even get it to court. A solicitor won't even attempt to sue the govt, as 99% of all legal work is generated by the govt, so a solicitor would effectively lock themselves out of that for ever (I tried to launch an action once, and that was the response from the solicitor). That's how it works. All the rest of this stuff about "fighting for basic rights" etc. just shows you have never worked there. So stop talking crap. The sheiks ARE the law.You work in the Middle East, you play by their rules, not some European view of how the world should be.Very, Very true.

[Rule3]

The man with the Gold makes the Rules.
BTW.... there is no such thing as class action.
From personal experience, if you manage to win a criminal case {after 2 years in court} you then have to file a civil case to try and recover your money and considerable legal costs. This can tie you up for another 2 or 3 years, with no guarantee you will get paid. Did I mention that all court hearings are in Arabic and documents are all in Arabic and you would be "amazed", not, what gets lost in translation.
You have no protection under the :mad: law.

[Wizofoz]

Stealthone,

Shortly afetr I came to Dubai, some of the terribly treated, underpaid construction workers here "Showed some backbone" and staged a peacful protest over the fact they hadn't been paid for months.

The next day I flew forty of them back to Bangladesh as they were instantly deported.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[abc1]

Na, never mind the middle east, look for the alternatives at home, join the AFAP, they will take care of you. No notice change of contracts? Yes plenty of recourse available. Just ask a vb guy.
What a liberal country that we live in or is that a myth perpetuated to the masses as opium(and gladly accepted too).

[stealthone]

Vizofoz,

Those construction workers showed some backbone and proved that they have one unlike most of the slimy pilot community.
My previous employer had some chinese cabin crew and their contract was breached in a simillar manner as to what is happening in the middle east. One day the girls packed up the bags and went back to China. Overthere they took that airline to the court and won. That airline had no choice but to pay up big bucks as chinese authorities intended to confiscate their offices in China.
Yeah those girls 'showed some backbone' and they have my respect.
I wander what's gonna take for most of EK whingers to show some backbone provided they have one.

[Rule3]

What has a Chinese class action, Slimy Pilots and EK Whingers to do with this Topic? Answer SFA.
People with several years experience in the SANDPIT are trying to warn others that they have no protection under the UAE laws. Anyone thinking of accepting employment in the UAE needs to think long and hard before they do so, particularly if they have a family.:ok:

[newsensation]

Dubai Expat Forum for Expats Living in Dubai - Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad (http://www.expatforum.com/expats/dubai-expat-forum-expats-living-dubai/)

[mmmbop]

Stealthone,

Just imagine the situation where 1000 pilots walk into the HR office to submit their letters stating refusal to accept the contract change.

Hmmm. I think that happened somewhere in history. Now when and where was it.......?


M

[Ndicho Moja]

mmmbop, bad boy. Tut Tut.

[Taildragger67]

Stealthone,

My previous employer had some chinese cabin crew and their contract was breached in a simillar manner as to what is happening in the middle east. One day the girls packed up the bags and went back to China. Overthere they took that airline to the court and won. That airline had no choice but to pay up big bucks as chinese authorities intended to confiscate their offices in China.

I suggest the parallel does not exist because:

- your previous employer was not in China;
- the CC who resigned were Chinese;
- they went back to China and sued there (in their own language);
- the Chinese authorities then indicated an intention to confiscate the airline's offices in China

whereas:

- Emirates pilots are in the UAE;
- Emirates is owned by the Dubai government;
- to sue Emirates, you are effectively suing a Dubai government instrumentality;
- as has been argued, such an action may be very difficult to bring

A parallel might be where (for example) a group of Australian EK pilots went back to Australia and sought to sue Emirates in Australian courts, but unless their employment contracts were made under Australian law or the courts could be persuaded that there was a close and real connection to Australia in the contract, then I'd suggest that an Australian court would decide that it did not have any jurisdiction over the contract. I'd further suggest that pretty much any common-law would decide the same.

Were an application to be made, I'd suggest that An Australian or UK court would invite the applicant to sue in the courts of the state whose law governs the contract.

Chinese courts may see things differently and be willing to assume extraterritorial jurisdiction, or perhaps those CC contracts were made subject to Chinese law.

[PaulDamian]

The "Rule of Law" is generally that:
(i) The law is made by a competent authority;
(ii) The law is applied to everyone equally and without exception (i.e. no one is above the law).
The rule of law is not some idea of broader justice or fairness about individual relationships.

More specifically:

1. If you signed a contract of employment (i) in the UAE, (ii) work there and (iii) live there, then you are *** domiciled *** there. VERY difficult, if not impossible for a court to find jurisdiction with those facts. Even if they did, the case would get transferred back to the UAE. UAE law will MOST LIKELY prevail.

2. The rule of law has some relevance in sharia law, but it is more limited to the law applying to everyone equally.

3. The rule of law in UAE, and their law generally, does not have the same notions or features as a common law country, like Australia or in a code law like Europe.

4. As described above, the problem appears to be that the employment contract seems to have precious few terms (but has the bond) and has significant application of policy and discretion. Terms and conditions that arise from 'policies', practices (custom and practice) and other related documents might be 'implied' into a contract of employment. Implying terms into a contact is not so easy, even at common law (see the BP Refineries case). Getting terms implied into a UAE contract might be very difficult and uncertain.

Don't base your expectations of the law on fairness or justice. UAE have a different system.

Don't even threaten to take them on. Besides having trouble getting another job with anyone (you WILL be tagged as person prepared to litigate, and NO ONE wants to employ someone that is prepared to litigate in a dispute - thats what psychometric testing is there for), you might find that you have issues and problems with customs and immigration when you transit through UAE. Who wants to employ a pilot that is a risk of having transit, customs and immigration issues.

BUT, if you would like a lawyer to represent you, I'd be happy to make the arrangements. Just make sure you have lots of $$$ to spend on achieving your principle.

Submit to their system and give it a go or find somewhere else to work.

Pauly

[Captain Dart]

Good one, mmmbop, but many of the pilots involved are still pilots. But not one of the companies involved exists today...

EK and their sandpit cohorts have lots of airframes on the way; they've got to crew them somehow, and my bet is they will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming into better conditions for their pilots and/or basings . I remember early days in Cathay Pacific: 'basings?...nah, never happen'.

Cathay have had based crew now for about a decade.

[abc1]

LR 3,
Why are you still there despite your vehemence towards your employer?

[stealthone]

Wow, guys thanks for opening up. It looks like the authorities overthere do not need to imprison anyone, you already live in a prison. It proves my point that their psychometric testing is damn good as majority of EK's pilots are proven sadomazohists.

Pauly,

Psychometric testing can be played to work in ones favour provided sufficent training is obtained. I can give you a perfect pilot profile regardless of the test taken. Thanks, don't work in the ME so no need for a lawyer but my previous disputes were handled by some of the best. A good pilot would never find himself out of work for a long period of time and I always stand tall and uphold my principles. One can soar with eagles or play in the mud with pigs. It's all about the choice.

[Sataybox]

. A common law states that once the precedent is set.... blah blah blah

There is no such thing as legal precedent or class action in the UAE, as many disgruntled property investors are discovering. The reason is, they can make a lot more money for the local economy by having to start every single trial case from scratch. Also, if a judge finds against the state, then the next complainant has no extra chance of winning his (technically identical) case. A very sleazy nation but there you go.....

The bottom line is, whilst it is a ****hole, you can, if you're prepared to bend a LOT, make it YOUR ****hole. But if you cannot accept the vile, abhorrent realities here, then you are best off paying tax and earning less and flying a worn-out B737/A320/clapped out 767 back in Australia. Even as an FO.

By the way, it's true we don't pay income tax in the UAE. But this means JACK **** if your net salary is higher (or even almost as high) in Australia. Lots of people just don't get that.

[Tankengine]

"By the way, it's true we don't pay income tax in the UAE. But this means JACK **** if your net salary is higher (or even almost as high) in Australia. Lots of people just don't get that. "

So true!

[Toruk Macto]

So the 2 options that face a guy on the street are

1) Jet* cadet

2) F/O EK

Whisch one ?

[Wizofoz]

So the 2 options that face a guy on the street are

1) Jet* cadet

2) F/O EK

Whisch one ?



Err...does this "Guy on the street" have 4000hrs including 2000hrs Jet? If not, option 2 isn't an option...

[Plazbot]

Some people also don't mind it here from parts of the world that are pretty good. What seems to be the common theme in the ME forum is that Emirates, the airline, sucks to work for and 99% of the noise comes from them. Probably speaks tomes about this thread. I do not know first hand as I don't work for them but am basing that on Ppprune alone.

The UAE is just one big company. Everything is set up around people only being here from somewhere else to work for the coin. Everything, everywhere, everytime is about your passport, your visa and your salary certificate. There are som enice places to live however if your employer gives you the choice.

I like it here. Fire away.

[abc1]

LR3, it is safe to say that your answer does defeat your previous assertion and logic(and previous ones too).
If there were actual industrial relations/rights in Aus and the rest of the ''modern'' world, then you wouldn't be listing the many negatives that you have which far outweigh those of EK.
You should be grateful that EK has decided to give you a bonus no matter how ****ty, as its a bonus.
You would not get that gesture from Joyce,Godfrey, Buchanan and Co.
And as for cretins, we, the western world have a fair share of them.
You take care too.

[HappyBandit]

Wizofoz

You make a valid point regarding min requirements. I wonder if they will reduce their mins to entice crew to go and live in the sandpit?

[PammyAnderson]

Well whatever they are doing it is working.
One VB captain has just resigned to go the pit and there are 6 more I know of with interviews coming up. Funny thing is ALL are EMB captains......

[abc1]

Already am and can only put your contradictory posts(and not only on this thread)down to being senile perhaps.

[Wizofoz]

Wizofoz

You make a valid point regarding min requirements. I wonder if they will reduce their mins to entice crew to go and live in the sandpit?

Happy,

They already have once (to 2500hrs provided they are the RIGHT 2500hrs). They would again if they didn't get enough applicants, which I don't believe is the case right now.

[hongkongfooey]

The comparison of the possibility of basings with CXs situation is a red herring.
For example : HK based CX F/Os get around 20K AUD/month including housing and pay 15% tax, Oz based F/Os get ( very roughly ) half that and pay 30% tax. ( Cx is the big winner )120-140K AUD/month is still very respectible F/O income in Oz.

How will the EK pay look when taxed at 30% ( using Oz as example ) ? Or do you think they will pay you more to live in your home country ?

Stealth, like many of us who leave for " greener " pastures, few of us realise, or want to believe, what we are in for and once you have vacated Oz, it's very difficult to get back without a mouldy blue shirt in you wardrobe. As an aside I believe you can be arrested and jailed for industrial action in UAE.

[Capn Bloggs]

120-140K AUD/month is still very respectible F/O income in Oz.

Where do I sign?

[hongkongfooey]

Here Bloggsy ;)

Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/careers/flying/fo)

[VH-ABC]

I'm with Bloggs Hongkongfooey... where do I sign????

Have another look at what you said.

[hongkongfooey]

Ha ha, cheers for that, well spotted :}
Maybe that should be per annum :ugh:

[halas]

"Share the joy"

"This is more than a jet-setting experience"

Where do l sign up? :} I want to share my joy, a lot! :hmm:

halas

[Sir Donald]

HF, or you can always don your dragonair uniform on and work for tiga and enjoy the best of both worlds in one go!

[40Deg STH]

Mmmmmm I might stay at CX:ok: And retire back to Aus. Off for mor Dim Sum, bye
CX housing is around AuD10k a month and thats PURCHASE. So will leave HK with several Mil Aus ( more than just several) :D in property when retiring, so wtf go to the sand. I personally go sick DXB trips. I hate sand in my shorts:D.

[Bypass ratio]

I'm a 3.5 year F/O in EK (just about to do my upgrade) and I take the company allowance which finances my apartment. My current take home pay every month is 13623AUD and that does not include this years bonus. For me to earn that kind of money back in Oz I would have to gross well over 212000AUD. The same argument exists and will always exist and that is...."you live in dubai, and not Australia". It's not for everyone, but it is what you make of it. Everyone has differen't circumstances. My roster next month has 4 trips with 16 days off in total. Yes I'm doing 92 hours/month and I don't know how long I can do it for, but it has just reinforced my motives to save money make a few wise investments and get the hell out of flying before I'm 50.

[oldhasbeen]

A pilot and " wise investments".....an oxymoron if ever there was one!:confused:

[Wizofoz]

Base+Utilities+Flight pay.

It actually sounds about right. If I took the Utilities allowence, as a TRI I'd clear about 70 000dhs (including Provident fund)= 22k AUD.

You'd need to be earning high 300Ks to net that in Aus.

[hongkongfooey]

135,000HKD/month ( 19,500AUD ) , + 13th month, 15% gratuity almost covers tax, and guess what...........IT IS NOT WORTH IT. ( Oh, and I am a lowly f/o )

Only joking, it's great, I love it, all you guys/gals in Oz should come to HK or go to Dubai and see how green the grass is for yourself :ouch:

[6100]

Hang on guys.................

I'm sure my dick is bigger than yours!!!!

[Angle of Attack]

The grass is really green in my backyard and I love it! And I live in Brissy!
haha!
Brisbane Born and loving it!

[Angle of Attack]

Hong kong fooey
So you are saying you take home 19.5k AUD a month as a lowly F/O?
Even so I still would not take that living in that hole...

I bet you dont though just love making stories if someone took 20k a month as an F/O it would be a revelation. So you get 240k AUD take home as an F/O? haha I dont think so...

Ill keep my green grass in Brisbane mate! and its great!

[404 Titan]

Angle of Attack
So you get 240k AUD take home as an F/O? haha I dont think so...
I don’t like talking pay but Fooey never said take-home pay. Having said that though, assuming he is using his housing allowance to pay off an apartment in HK, then his numbers are spot on.
Even so I still would not take that living in that hole...
Regarding living in HK? Horses for courses. It may not be your cup of tea but some of us love the place. Just as I couldn't think of living in the desert, some people love the place.
Ill keep my green grass in Brisbane mate! and its great!
Good for you. That is you choice and I don't have a problem with that.

[Gnadenburg]

Brisbane is a Bogan's paradise. Devoid of culture. Go on. Name a decent restaurant. Or even a decent suburb.

Bronzed Bogans! :}

[Boney]

I would have to agree with that. I lived there for a year and hated it. Recently, 140,000 people walked over the new bridge near the airport. Huge numbers but I was not surprised as there is nothing else to do there on the weekend except walk around Westfields like everyone else.

Nice suburb, mmm, Redcliffe was nice but didn't get to live there!

[evyjet]

All this talk of who earns what, I earn more blah blah blah....

Your salary is a bit like your Dick...

It's not what you've got, but what you do with it that counts!

.... It just makes life easier if you start out with more! :ok:

[teresa green]

Seriously engage the missus on this one. Have met a couple of blokes who have had the other half fly back in a flood of tears to their mothers. Both relationships split up sadly. It is a big ask for a family, especially the female side, sure the shopping is fun for about a minute, then reality sets in, the heat, the customs regarding women, and pure homesickness just might become a problem, then again other women might enjoy the challange. One thing to check on is unless you speak the lingo, jobs are not so easy to find, so if your otherhalf wants to work???

[Gnadenburg]

Yes teresa green. And the scenario of how you & the missus feel when a mid twenties, Arab boy, arrives in a Ferrari to take out your underaged daughter.

evyjet

That's a good point. I know relatively highly paid pilots whose unchecked lifestyles have them with nothing.

But being abroad should open an innumerable number of wealth creating opportunities as opposed to being PAYE Australia.

[ROKAPE]

hongkongfooey's numbers are correct, plus annual travel fund and 'profit' share but minus 16% tax...

[Metro man]

Brisbane is a Bogan's paradise. Devoid of culture. Go on. Name a decent restaurant. Or even a decent suburb.

1. McDonalds, Hungry Jacks, KFC
2. Inala, Darra, Woodridge, Beenleigh

:E

[P-Dubby]

Redcliffe? Cripes - where did you live?

[teresa green]

Thats not fair Metro Man, they are in a state of mourning after one of their own just got shafted, bigtime, give em a break!

[coaldemon]

That's just plain unfair as we all know that Redcliffe = Inala by the sea. It's all very cultural though I'm sure.

[neville_nobody]

And the scenario of how you & the missus feel when a mid twenties, Arab boy, arrives in a Ferrari to take out your underaged daughter.

You tell her she isn't seeing him again, end of story. :hmm:

[Transition Layer]

And the scenario of how you & the missus feel when a mid twenties, Arab boy, arrives in a Ferrari to take out your underaged daughter.

Could just as easily happen in Sydney too...the next John Ibrahim.

[ferris]

And the scenario of how you & the missus feel when a mid twenties, Arab boy, arrives in a Ferrari to take out your underaged daughter. At least you might take comfort in that it will only be "date" rape- no pregnancy :oh: