Air India IX-212 just 2 minutes from crashing into sea !

[alphabravocharlie1]

Dubai flight was just 2 minutes from crashing into sea - India - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Dubai-flight-was-just-2-minutes-from-crashing-into-sea/articleshow/6005164.cms)

some excerpts from the article ..

MUMBAI: It was disaster averted by less than two minutes.

Initial investigations have revealed that the May 26 Air India Express Dubai-Pune flight IX-212 was less than two minutes away from plunging into the Arabian Sea. It had plummeted dangerously from an altitude of 37,000 feet when its commander was away from the cockpit, in the washroom, leaving the first officer to man the controls. The aircraft's nose was down to a minus-23-degree angle because of which its descent rate increased rapidly and went up to 21,000 feet per minute even as the overspeed warning blared loudly in the cockpit.
....

....

The incident puts a huge question mark on the training given by Air India Express, especially to its first officers. The first officer had 1,000 hours of flying experience on the Boeing 737 aircraft which, say aviation safety experts, is quite adequate to handle a situation like this.

The Directorate-General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) is investigating the incident. "The aircraft plunged at speeds beyond its maximum limit. The recovery would have stressed the structure abnormally. This would require special investigations to be carried out on the aircraft after landing," said an air safety expert. It was not known whether the aircraft was grounded following this incident.

:eek:

[captplaystation]

So, on the one hand they are quoting the wonderful Indian F/O trying to save the day whilst the Capt pressed on regardless, and now we have the Indian F/O who with 1000hr couldn't even control the aircraft in pitch.

Methinks the Indian media are almost as credible as the British. :hmm:

[alphabravocharlie1]

Some section of the media has reported of an incident of Air India Express flight IX-212 of May 26, 2010. In this connection we would like to clarify as under :

Air India Express flight IX-212 of May 26, 2010 from Dubai to Pune, during flight, lost some height (not 15,000 ft. as reported). There are no reports of any injuries to passengers and crew. The pilots have been de-rostered to enable them to participate in the enquiry. The matter is being investigated.

AirIndia - Air India Express Flight of IX-212 of 26th may (http://home.airindia.in/SBCMS/Webpages/AIE-ix212-Flight.aspx)

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

This combined with the recent crash at Mangalore, should be a real eye opener for some people.

[rubik101]

I'm quite pleased now that my contract with them, via an agency last summer, has simply been ignored and I never got the job. I'm still waiting for my £1000 in out of pocket expenses and the £300 I wasted on the Indian visa. I'd rather be sitting on the beach, almost penniless, than up there with them.

[FLYCOUGAR]

Sections of the indian media have been involved in conducting a systematic campaign against the National Carrier Air india.

This piece of yellow journalism must be seen in this context.

The Times group is leading this activity.

[TopTup]

Sleeping Freight Dog: No matter what is written or exposed some elements will deny that water is wet if that what it takes to justify a belief. You're so right, but people will see only what they want to see.

Times of India journalism is fraught with sensationalism and poor reporting, but if one has the intelligence and humilty to see the underlying tone and theme of the reporting then this is not a completely bad thing.

At long last it appears a minuscule amount of the corruption, poor training and pathetic standards at AI are being uncovered. What's the worst thing that could happen? Pilots receiving fair and proper training to the standards they are entitled to? Expat contracts offered in an open and honest & transparent means? The best people are offered the best jobs? Aviation becomes safer? Pilots become more professional? OH NO! Heaven forbid the career of pilot can be linked to the word professional once again.

Personally, I have been shouted down by present Indian airline pilots and children (175-250 hr CPL holders without an ounce of commercial experience, knowledge, education or airline qualification) on the Sth Asia and Far East Forum for a long time for screaming about the goings on at AI. These kids have a fresh CPL and a God-like complex the Indian aviation is the be all and end all, and that what I what I witnessed first hand didn't go on. (Refer to previous posts.....)

And still some try to justify this rubbish by blaming the expat. Short sighted xenophobia, as rampant as corruption in India.

OPEN YOUR EYES!
Focus on the SYSTEM
:ugh:

[TopTup]

1000 hrs TT is deemed "highly experienced"! Let alone when someone with 175-250 hrs TT believes they are OWED a job flying a jet transport. So, with 1000 hrs TT this pilot may have had actually how much hands on IF stick time? How many actual t/o's and landings?

Combine that with [criminally] negligent training standards, etc, etc (all been said before) and therein lies your answer.

I agree re the EgypAir 767 crash. I commented on it previously by way of asking whether or not the investigation will be as transparent as we hope. In EgyptAir the national carrier's regulatory body came up with one finding while the US NTSB came up with another.

Someone asked on a previous thread what could possibly be the DGCA's reason for even wanting to attempt a coverup. Well, in my opinion it's the same answer as per any other agency or person in any part of the world: $$$$$$ Pure and utter greed borne from corruption that is accepted as a natural part of doing business. Now, apart from utter greed, what about the fact that the massive levels of corruption, back-hand deals, etc, etc ever get exposed? I think the reasons WHY they would want to hide such issues are clear.

[opherben]

The Egyptair 990 case is quite clear, based on the investigation conducted by NTSB. Its conclusion was worded in a politically-correct fashion, to retain US Egypt friendship and not clearly state the reasons for the relief FO suicidal actions.
This fact was covered up by ECAA and Egypt government, who dispute the logic of cause and effect. Culture in certain places seems more deeply entrenched than logic, this can be observed daily.

[HotDog]

Nothing has changed in Air India. During my 747 conversion in Seattle 1978, one of our Boeing trainers was called away to Bombay to testify in a law suit against Boeing by Air India. Before he left he told us that it involved the Captain whom Boeing refused to certify on the 747 but who got checked out consequently in house, by Air India.

Air India Flight 855 was a scheduled passenger flight that crashed during the evening of 1 January 1978 about 3 km (1.9 mi) off the coast of Bandra, Bombay (now Mumbai), India. All 213 lives on board were lost. The crash is believed to have been caused by the Captain becoming spatially disoriented after the failure of one of the flight instruments in the cockpit.

The aircraft involved was a Boeing 747-237B, registration VT-EBD, named the "Emperor Ashoka". It was the first 747 delivered to Air India. When it was delivered in April 1971, Air India had proclaimed it as the "747th wonder of the world", and in keeping with their Maharaja motif, used the tagline "Your Palace in the Sky" to describe this new aircraft with a detailed external paint scheme and interesting interior design.

The departure was from Bombay's Sahar Airport, (now called Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport). The plane's destination was Dubai International Airport in Dubai, with Captain Madan L. Kukar as the Commander.
Approximately one minute after takeoff from runway 27 the pilot made a scheduled right turn while over the Arabian Sea, after which the aircraft briefly returned to a normal level position. Soon the plane began rolling to the left, and never regained level flight.
The cockpit voice recorder recovered from the wreckage revealed the Captain made a verbal comment about his Attitude Indicator (AI) having "toppled", meaning that it was still showing the aircraft in a right bank. The First Officer, whose presumably functional AI was now showing a left bank, said that his AI was also toppled, but there is some belief that the Captain mistakenly took this to mean that both primary AIs were indicating a right bank. It was after sunset and the aircraft was flying over a dark Arabian Sea, leaving the aircrew unable to visually cross-check their AI instrument readings with the actual horizon outside the cockpit windows.
The 747 had a third backup AI in the center instrument panel between the two pilots, and the transcripts of the cockpit conversation show that the Flight Engineer may have been attempting to direct the Captain's attention to that third AI, or perhaps to another instrument called the Turn and Bank Indicator, just five seconds before the plane impacted the sea.
The Captain's mistaken perception of the aircraft situation resulted in his using the flight controls to add more left bank and left rudder, causing the aircraft to rapidly lose altitude. Just 101 seconds after leaving the runway the jet hit the Arabian Sea at an estimated 35 degree nose-down angle. There were no survivors among the 190 passengers and 23 crew members.

The partially recovered wreckage revealed no evidence of explosion, fire, or any electrical or mechanical failure, and an initial theory of sabotage was ruled out.
The investigation concluded that the probable cause was "due to the irrational control inputs by the captain following complete unawareness of the attitude as his AI had malfunctioned. The crew failed to gain control based on the other flight instruments."
U.S. Federal District Judge James M. Fitzgerald, in a 139-page decision issued 1 November 1985, rejected charges of negligence against the Boeing Company, Lear Siegler Inc, and the Collins Division of Rockwell International Corporation in a suit related to the crash

[johan_jnb]

21000 feet per minute... who writes this stuff!? :ugh:

[misd-agin]

johan jnb - 21000 feet per minute... who writes this stuff!?



Pitch attitude x mach = rate of descent(approximately)

Reports says pitch attitude was as low as -23, and the a/c maximum speed was exceeded. Using the rule of thumb above a mach of .91 would be approximately 21,000' FPM so it's seems to be a reasonable number.

Personally I didn't enjoy descent rates above 20,000' - 25,000' FPM but everyone's tolerances are different.

[White Knight]

HOTDOG ..very poor taste to put the late skipper's name... what happened..he gave u a hard time when you were a FE on the 707s .
U failed to mention the contributory factors about the ashoka crash.. but anyways..its become a habit of us all to blame the pilot straight away , whatever the nationality.
sit by the pool , the beach,the garden..but pls dont criticise others.. u just never know when it will be you nxt .

What nonsense willfly380 - the name of the flight of that particular captain has been in the public domain for years. After all we're talking about an accident that happened 32 years ago and the investigation is long done and dusted..

Besides - sounds like you're one of the new generation wannabes with your annoying use of 'text talk':{:{ Try becoming literate - it may just help you to get that 380 job one day:E

[MATELO]

The aircraft's nose was down to a minus-23-degree angle because of which its descent rate increased rapidly and went up to 21,000 feet per minute even as the overspeed warning blared loudly in the cockpit.


& then

"On entering the cockpit, he was shocked when he saw the Primary Flight Display, which displays information on altitude, vertical speed (in this case rate of descent) and the air speed. It showed the aircraft's nose was down by minus 23 degrees

I know these new fangled jets are comfy, but I reckon he may have had a tadge inclination he was "23" degress nose down before he got there!!!:)

[BOAC]

but I reckon he may have had a tadge inclination he was "23" degress nose down before he got there! - yup - it would not have taken him long to get from the toilet door to the flight deck door at that angle, and I bet he couldn't even close the toilet door:)

[leftseatview]

Good one BOAC!

[patrickal]

yup - it would not have taken him long to get from the toilet door to the flight deck door at that angle, and I bet he couldn't even close the toilet door

Perhaps the fact that he probably had to almost piss up into the toilet may have given a hint to hurry back to the office.

[Prober]

"21000 feet per minute... who writes this stuff!? " (Johan JNB)

Cracked windscreen in a "Gripper". Emergency descent. Nos 1 & 3 to idle, then reverse. When above reverse idle, No 2 to idle (1 & 3 giving pressurisation). Rate of descent was so dramatic, I timed it on the stopwatch. 22,000 fpm. So there!
Prober:8

[Burger Thing]

Perhaps the fact that he probably had to almost piss up into the toilet may have given a hint to hurry back to the office.

:p Now that has to be the funniest thing ever posted here :}

[HotDog]

willfly380, check your PMs.

[TopTup]

Patrickal, Burger Thing.... YEP! Got to agree. If you don't learn to laugh sometimes then you'll spend waaaay too much time crying. Thanks for the laugh, but not for the imagery that I am trying to get rid of!

[jstars2]

Word is that the aircraft lost 30,000 feet and hit Mach.90 +. Seems possible the FO inadvertently applied pressure to the control column, tripped the auto flight system into CWS (Control Wheel Steering), didn't notice and his continued pressure on the stick resulted in the 23 degree high dive. B737-800 drivers - is this possible?

DGCA is now actively considering a shutdown (temp or permanent?) of Air India Express. More cans-of-worms to be opened shortly!

[HAWK21M]

Media reports on Aviation = Coffee break Jokes.....

The Truth when it comes out post Investigation will not be as Dramatic.

All Reporters should be needing a Basic knowledge of a subject before posting on it.

[akerosid]

Another serious incident, this time involving Blue Dart Aviation:

Incident: Blue Dart B752 at Mumbai and Bangalore on Jun 9th 2010, "mowed" runway edge lights on takeoff (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=42cb3476&opt=0)

Sounds like a rather unusual takeoff run ...

[takeoffpowerset]

It's high time DGCA starts looking into NSOP category tooo , the training ,operating and safety standards just dont exist there .... seriously flying for NSOP can very scary !!!!!

[captjns]

Leave it to the Times of India to spin the India Air Express high dive and Blue Dart lawn maintenance takeoff and landing into an expat thing.

By the way let's not forget about IBN-CNN to do the same.

Both are the masters of disaster in journalism.

[Anotherpost75]

Could be another can-of-worms about to be opened. The CMD (Chairman, Managing Director) of NACIL (parent of AI and AIX), prior to the present one, has been implicated in a scam over ex-pat salaries. Looks like he has been taking thousands of USD per month per ex-pat captain, as the difference between the sums billed to AI and those actually paid to each captain (we are talking serious money here, over the time span this has been happening and the hundreds of ex-pats involved). Maybe he should have spent a little more time overseeing Air India Express (before he was fired by the Minister), rather than time supervising his personal foreign bank account?

[BOAC]

Something wrong with it, Gob? It's only a bit over 180kts TAS

[GlueBall]

Cracked windscreen in a "Gripper". Emergency descent.

I don't know what a "Gripper" is, but I wouldn't be making an "emergency" descent and be building up more speed with a cracked windshield. In fact, the procedure is just the opposite: Make a normal descent, raise cabin altitude to 9000 feet. :ooh:

[BusyB]

Glueball,
Hawker Siddeley Trident - AKA HS Groundgripper.

Very much doubt that you had to increase forward speed much to descend if you have an engine in Full Reverse:ok:

[Hobo]

No, but you had to push the nose down somewhat to keep the 365kts IAS that we descended at. With just 1&3 in reverse and 2 at 11000, the HS121 would go down at > 12,000 fpm - even at 280 kts. Wind the speed up to 365 and close 2 and anything was possible.

Glueball:

If you don't know what a Gripper is, how would you know what the procedures were? I can't see what difference IAS would have on a cracked windscreen, it would be all down to cabin diff.

[andrasz]

...I wouldn't be making an "emergency" descent and be building up more speed with a cracked windshield...

I'm not familiar with the exact nature of static and dynamic loads on the windscreen, however I would assume the forces exerted by the pressure differential are significantly higher than the aerodynamic loading at normal cruise levels. I would think increasing speed (and aerodynamic loading) would actually lower the risk of a cracked windscreen blowing out... Anybody out there who actually has the numbers ?

[misd-agin]

Friend had a 727 windshield shatter. It bowed out, not in, after shattering.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I don't know what a "Gripper" is

it seems it maybe when ones butt grips the seat so tight that you couldn't pull a needle out of there with a locomotive:}

[punkalouver]

Word is that the aircraft lost 30,000 feet and hit Mach.90 +. Seems possible the FO inadvertently applied pressure to the control column, tripped the auto flight system into CWS (Control Wheel Steering), didn't notice and his continued pressure on the stick resulted in the 23 degree high dive. B737-800 drivers - is this possible?

DGCA is now actively considering a shutdown (temp or permanent?) of Air India Express. More cans-of-worms to be opened shortly!

https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=127

Pushed on the control column while moving the seat forward(shouldn’t happen if seated properly).

Then his recovery seemed to be more about further pushing while in a nose down attitude. Captain had to override him after returning(via safety code entry which takes 30 seconds) to the cockpit.

[vilas]

https://www.aviation-accidents.net/report-download.php?id=127

Pushed on the control column while moving the seat forward(shouldn’t happen if seated properly).

Then his recovery seemed to be more about further pushing while in a nose down attitude. Captain had to override him after returning(via safety code entry which takes 30 seconds) to the cockpit.
Why the topic after 12 years?

[hans brinker]

Why the topic after 12 years?

I have no clue, but this part is funny:
"The airplane arrived in Bangalore with a flat tyre as well as metal and glass pieces, that the aircraft manufacturer hadn't designed to be in the landing gear, but managed a safe landing about 90 minutes after departure from Mumbai."

[oldpax]

!As a fare paying passenger I should not read anything on pprune !!

[warbirdfinder]

After retiring from Delta in 2004 as a B-777 Captain and then having Delta take my retirement, I applied to Air India as they were looking for B-777 Captains. During the process I was told I could have a copilot with as little as 250 hours and he could not touch the controls until he had a minimum of 1000 hours with a Check Pilot.
I decided that was not for me and stayed home.